Landlord problem....,what else??

Bitsie

ok ill try make this as short as possible.....there are 3 of us in the house, last month one moved out, we had problem replacing her so landlord moved in his friend to "help us out" as he said. Now he is moving out as he has caused some problems. But now the landlord reckons that if we dont find someone to take his room by end of month then we have to pay his share of rent....we were only given a week and half notice to find someone else.
Is it the landlords right to demand extra rent for this room of us??? i didnt think so!!

MorningStar

Sounds like he is being a bit abrupt now but if rented out the house to three people and somebody moves out the rent should stay the same. The rent is for the house not the room. By suggesting his friend moves in he was helping you out. If it didn't work out so be it. If you want to keep renting the house get another housemate.
The problem isn't with the landlord it is with the fact your friend moved out. He tried to help you out but it didn't work out. If I was him I would be a bit annoyed that it didn't work out and throw the responsibility back on you (where is was always). He is still being relatively easy going about by giving you some time with the rent. Why should he lose money because your friend moved out?
Try thinking from his view rather than assume all landlords are out to screw you.

Bitsie

it wasnt our friend that moved out, when i moved in i was renting the room, i didnt move in together with the other two. i moved in with two strangers. then another one decided to move out, so now im caught in the middle and expected to pay extra rent. when i moved in i didnt agree to rent the whole house, i was just taking the room.

Bitsie

i would understand if me and twp friends rented the house together and then one of them moved out, but thats not the way it was.

BC

Do you have a lease?

If not then just don't pay the extra rent. Unless you've signed a lease where you are taking on the entire house there isn't a lot the landlord can do about it.

Gilgamesh

completely agree with morningstar on this.

the rent of the house isn't determined by the amount of people living in it,
you guys signed a contract, then under yourselves decided to split the rent, that is how you have to see it

Bitsie

but thats what im trying to say....we didnt sign anything. 3 different people before me took on the house then they started to move out one by one, i am just one of the people who took on a room after them. no lease or anything.

MorningStar

Bitsie wrote:

but thats what im trying to say....we didnt sign anything. 3 different people before me took on the house then they started to move out one by one, i am just one of the people who took on a room after them. no lease or anything.

Then you don't have to pay the extra rent. You are right, before you tell him though I would check out if he is regiseterd to rent the house out. This way if he really complains you can hold this against him. That's assuming he isn't which sounds like a safe bet.
The fact he got another tennant (regardless of him being friends) and it didn't work out I can kind of see his point. Keep trying to get a housemate you like. This is why rooms shouldn't be rented seperately and if they must leases are really important.

Bitsie

yeh i can understand that he doesnt want to lose any money over this but it really isnt my problem either, im not rentong out the whole house. i may take your advice Morningstar about checking him out as we pay cash in hand every month for rent so dont even have a bank account number for him!

landser

Bitsie wrote:

yeh i can understand that he doesnt want to lose any money over this but it really isnt my problem either, im not rentong out the whole house. i may take your advice Morningstar about checking him out as we pay cash in hand every month for rent so dont even have a bank account number for him!

It is your problem. from what you say, you are a party to the lease of the house... whether that lease be recorded in writing or not. you may have thought that you were renting a room, but you weren't. that's your fault for being, at best, naive. DAFT is full of ads saying "room to rent in house", when what they should say is "spare room in house". I'm with the landlord on this one. if you can't afford the rent, move out and quit whining about it.

Bitsie

im not whining about it, im asking for advice, so dont need comments like that thanks very much, i have had nothing but trouble with this guy in the house so you dont know the half of it. there was no agreement whether it be verbal or written that this was being rented as a house so im bound to nothing.

Bitsie

if the wording is wrong in ads for rooms then thats there own fault, not mine.

Third_Echelon

If you don't have a lease stating what you are responsible for then you are not duty bound to pay the extra rent.

My lease for example states how much i pay per month. If one of my flatmates moves, i dont have to pay their 'share' of the rent...

If this isn't in writing for you, then no way should you pay. The law is on your side in this....

pollyantic

Sounds to me like you're looking for support from people on boards to rip your landlord off.
If you dont like him move.
But dont try not to pay him what you owe him.

In fact you should move anyway, because its clear you have a problem with the setup there. Why on earth would you want to stay if things are annoying you that much

Santa Claus

landser wrote:

It is your problem. from what you say, you are a party to the lease of the house... whether that lease be recorded in writing or not.

Landser,
A lease is a LEGAL document, so if one doesn't exist then the landlord has no rights to expect the tenants to pay extra than the agreed amount they normally pay each. Saying that being party to a lease whether it's recorded in writing or not is Bull.....There is no such thing as a verbal lease !

Bitsie,
Ask him for his PPS number, say that you need it for claiming rent tax credits from the tax man....See how forceful he is then about demanding the extra money (if he's getting rent cash in hand then i'd be amazed if he's declaring it for tax and even if he is he probably isn't declaring the full amount).
Did he issue you with a rent book or give you receipts for your rent you've paid so far ?

My only worry would be that without a lease, if he decided to sell the house tomorrow he could turf you all out without much notice.....You've no rights effectively in the absence of a lease !

Bitsie

pollyantic wrote:

Sounds to me like you're looking for support from people on boards to rip your landlord off.
If you dont like him move.
But dont try not to pay him what you owe him.

In fact you should move anyway, because its clear you have a problem with the setup there. Why on earth would you want to stay if things are annoying you that much

how am i ripping him off, i dont owe him anything, i pay my rent i agreed to pay every month on time. and everything else is fine with the house and the landlord isnt that bad, its just over paying this extra rent.

seamus

Simple question:

Do you pay the landlord individually, or do you collect up all the money, and pay him as one?

Lease or no lease, if you don't pay individual rent, you could be boned.

Bitsie

Santa Claus wrote:

Landser,
My only worry would be that without a lease, if he decided to sell the house tomorrow he could turf you all out without much notice.....You've no rights effectively in the absence of a lease !

i know he could turf me out and if that happens then i just have to move on but im not giving in that easy and payinghim money i dint think i owe. Liek you said there was no lease.

Bitsie

seamus wrote:

Simple question:

Do you pay the landlord individually, or do you collect up all the money, and pay him as one?

Lease or no lease, if you don't pay individual rent, you could be boned.

well i usually give it to one of the lads and they give it to landlord then altogether with his own rent.

landser

Bitsie wrote:

there was no agreement whether it be verbal or written that this was being rented as a house so im bound to nothing.

great... prove this in court and see how much it costs you. as pollyantic says, if you hate the landlord so much, why are you still there? the landlord is being pretty decent and the only one being bolshy is you. you signed up to what you thought was a room, but in fact it would appear to have been a house. that's your fault or at best, the fault of the existing tenats in the house, not the landlord's. However, if you feel you're not bound to anything, then, likewise, neither if the landlord, and it's out you go!

voxpop

if you have no lease or rent book , the landlord can turf you out tomorrow - there is proof you have been paying rent - you have a right to either a lease or rent book.

Heres the way I see it - if you are all paying seperate and someone moves out, the person moving out should sort out someone to move in. With you, the landlord got his mate to move in - his mate should have paid the landlord his first months rent in advance plus a deposit of 1 month. So if the guy moves out in the middle of the month, without giving proper notice, the landlord simply uses his deposit as rent, giving you guys a month to find a replacement.
If the landlord didnt get rent in advance or a deposit from his mate, then its his own fault and he (the landlord or his mate) should take the loss, not the people currently living in the house.

Its all a bit complicated because noone know where they stand because there is nothing written down. Always get a lease espically if you are paying cash in hand!

Bitsie

i never said i hated the landlord Landser, you should read the replies properly! and i can easily prove there is no written agreement, because i dont have one!!! and saying i SIGNED up to a house is bull becasue i signed nothing. maybe you should think before you type stuff here.

Bitsie

i know Angry Penguin and his mate didnt give a deposit or anything so not fault he didnt get one and now he is expecting me to pay for it

Bitsie

sorry, i would just like to point out that we have only been given a weeks notice to replace this guy and plus the guy moving out hasnt even bothered cleaning his room and its in really bad shape and stinks so impossible to expect people to take it at the moment, so not alot of notice given to us before we are expected to pay the extra rent

MorningStar

You don't need a lease to have rights. Most leases don't give you any more rights than the standard rights you have. No lease in this case means you can say you rented a room but he can say you rented the house. The fact you didn't know the other person works in your favour here.
No landlord can turf you out legally without trouble. He can't even enter the house without your permission. If you stop paying rent he has to bring you to court before anything can happen and that can take 6 months.
The best think to do it try to agree with him and get another housemate. Being right or wrong doesn't really come in to it because it's not worth the hastle. Have yourself covered and be carefull. People with mortgages on rental property can get very upset at the thought of losing money or the taxman. Alot of the newer investors make mistakes but don't actually mean harm.

Bitsie

The best think to do it try to agree with him and get another housemate. Being right or wrong doesn't really come in to it because it's not worth the hastle. Have yourself covered and be carefull. People with mortgages on rental property can get very upset at the thought of losing money or the taxman. Alot of the newer investors make mistakes but don't actually mean harm.[/QUOTE]

yeh well im hoping to find new housemate in time and then get a lease off him, i think the least he can do is give us a bit more time to find one.

voxpop

Well if you have no lease,no rent book and pay cash in hand - you have no proof that you have paid anything or lived in the house for any time span. He could turf you out and deny any knowledge of you ever renting.

It seems in this case that the landlord got his mate to move in and didnt apply the same standards to his mate as to others (ie getting the deposit,etc). If the extra rent isnt much extra then maybe call the landlord, explain things and maybe offer to pay half to "help him out".

Investors are grown ups, if they make mistakes, let them solve it themselves.
Why should a tenant pay for the landlords mistake,espically if the landlord isnt paying tax and creaming in the cash on his second/third/fourth..... house.

landser

MorningStar wrote:

You don't need a lease to have rights. Most leases don't give you any more rights than the standard rights you have. No lease in this case means you can say you rented a room but he can say you rented the house. The fact you didn't know the other person works in your favour here.
No landlord can turf you out legally without trouble. He can't even enter the house without your permission. If you stop paying rent he has to bring you to court before anything can happen and that can take 6 months.
QUOTE]

this is all very laudible, but not quite how the system works. the landlord can call around and change every lock in the house and turf the tenant out for non payment of rent. the tenant would then have to initiate proceeings against him, which could take 6 months! He may well have breached the tenats rights, but 6 months down the line, having spent a large sum of money on costs (no solicitor does this type of work without money up front) and having already had to find somewhere else to live, any victory on the tenant's partcould well be a Phyrric one. this is the real world situation.

Bitsie

Well like i said i would just be happy if he just gave us more time to find new tenant and that would solve everything, he cant expect us to find one in less than a week especially if his mate hasnt bothered cleaning out his filthy room!

Santa Claus

Landser, Would i be right in guessing from your pro-landlord posts that you are a landlord yourself ????

Santa Claus

Bitsie wrote:

Well like i said i would just be happy if he just gave us more time to find new tenant and that would solve everything, he cant expect us to find one in less than a week especially if his mate hasnt bothered cleaning out his filthy room!

Bitsie,
Best thing to do is ring him and say this. Also tell him you want receipts for all rent paid and his PPS number to claim your tax credits....that should shut him up very quickly !

Bitsie

well Santa Claus (feels very weird calling you that)! i called him around last night to have a look at the state of the room himself and he said he will have a word, but God only knows how long that will take!

Santa Claus

If the room is not in rentable condition then you can't be expected to try and rent it.
Explain to him calmly that as he introduced the new tenant it's up to him to clear up after the guy (if it was a friend of yours, he'd expect you to sort out your friends mess) bear any loss on that room until he gets the room clean enough to show to prospective tenants.
It's his own fault really for not getting a deposit from the guy !

Do you get any receipts from him for the rent ?
I had a landlord before who wouldn;t give his PPS number so the revenue said they just need his name and the address of the property you're renting in and they get the details through the land registry !

calhob_ie

If theres no lease then there should be a rent book. If theres neither then you have to be able to prove you've been paying rent to him or his representative, which if it was all cash is difficult to impossible. On the plus front the legal situation is that if the lease was signed on your behalf by one of the other tenants then they are liable for any shortfall on the rental amount, since your a latecomer to the house this must be the case.

Which means you either come to a mutual agreement, probably the best being him waiving a room equivalent from the rent for a month or so to give you the time to find a replacement. Or you leave, legally you would be entitled to your deposit but realistically you'd probably be onto plums and have to take the loss.

MorningStar

landser wrote:

this is all very laudible, but not quite how the system works. the landlord can call around and change every lock in the house and turf the tenant out for non payment of rent. the tenant would then have to initiate proceeings against him, which could take 6 months! He may well have breached the tenats rights, but 6 months down the line, having spent a large sum of money on costs (no solicitor does this type of work without money up front) and having already had to find somewhere else to live, any victory on the tenant's partcould well be a Phyrric one. this is the real world situation.

You might find you are wrong with this. If a landlord does this you go to the police and get an instant (24hour) court case. It's not a civil mater it's a crime! Rent non-payment is a civil matter. You are also able to enter the house by what ever means and change the locks yourself. Ireland has some very strict laws on tennacy rights. To prove you live there just have a few bills or letters to you there.

calhob_ie

Indeed you can apply for an injunction and demand to be readmitted to the property, if you can prove your a tenant of course. Again though if you get home and all your stuff's been f**ked out the top floor window onto the street then do you really want to go to court to get back in? Even if you do get back in the landlord still has enough power over your environment ie the property to make your every minute in the place miserable. Personally if it got to that stage I'd cut my losses and bugger off.

landser

Santa Claus wrote:

Landser, Would i be right in guessing from your pro-landlord posts that you are a landlord yourself ????

what an amazing deduction... and what a wrong one... nope, i'm a tenant at the moment and have been for several years. I'm not "pro landlord" as such, but i'm pro this landlord, cos he's in the right. no point telling the OP a load of bs based on notional political ideas, when he's gonna get his ass whipped.

landser

MorningStar wrote:

You might find you are wrong with this. If a landlord does this you go to the police and get an instant (24hour) court case. It's not a civil mater it's a crime! Rent non-payment is a civil matter. You are also able to enter the house by what ever means and change the locks yourself. Ireland has some very strict laws on tennacy rights. To prove you live there just have a few bills or letters to you there.

the gardai will not get involved in an eviction matter without a court order. the court is very reluctant to give such orders without hearing from both sides. if the first thing the court hears is that the tenant is not paying rent, it is hiughly unlikely that it will make an order in favour of the tenant without such an order without a full hearing as the tenant is in default of his agreement with the landlord. if the tenant forces entry to the house, he can be charged with criminal damage.

Notwithstanding all this, the point is this will cost the OP money and time... is it not esaier to move out? if he was stupid enough to move into a house when he didn;t even know what he was renting, he deserves what he gets.

Bitsie

this landlord is not in the right full stop. there is no lease no rent book and i didnt take it on with the other two as a house. if he gets rid of me then so be it, i would rather that than pay him an extra penny.
thanks for all your comments, illl let you know how i get on!!

MorningStar

landser wrote:

the gardai will not get involved in an eviction matter without a court order. the court is very reluctant to give such orders without hearing from both sides. if the first thing the court hears is that the tenant is not paying rent, it is hiughly unlikely that it will make an order in favour of the tenant without such an order without a full hearing as the tenant is in default of his agreement with the landlord. if the tenant forces entry to the house, he can be charged with criminal damage.

Notwithstanding all this, the point is this will cost the OP money and time... is it not esaier to move out? if he was stupid enough to move into a house when he didn;t even know what he was renting, he deserves what he gets.

I have first hand knowledge that makes me disagree with you. I think if you check the rules around this you might be surprised. Don't believe me but if you ever get into the situation where you need to evicte somebody you will find it tuff going. If you damage something entering a building you have rights to it is not criminal damage.

SHE rented a room the landlord is wrong to think she rented the house with people she just met.

calhob_ie

What you think and what you can prove are two different things.

Legally if the house is rented and a lease agreement exists between the previous tenants then the new tenant ie the poster would be liable to this agreement, it would be considered that the lease agreement was signed on his behalf. If he wasn't made aware of this when he moved in then he's well within his rights to move out and demand a full refund of any monies outstanding to him as the agreement was misrepresented to him. Thats presuming he was rented the room on a "room only" basis in a shared property.

If the house is rented then the landlord has no right to enter the property without the express permission of the tenants. The landlord may hold the physical deeds to the property but its the tenants home. Also the landlord has no right to remove or hold the tenants property in lieu of outstanding rental or bill payments, thats what a deposits for.

You can check the legal situation here:

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/housing/renting_a_flat_or_house/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

Relates to eviction practice.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/housing/renting_a_flat_or_house/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html

Relates to your rights as a private tenant.

Bitsie

thanks for that, and for the record im a SHE, look at the name "Bitsie", hardly the most manly nickname!! anyway thanks guys

calhob_ie

Sorry about that, best of luck anyway. Im sure if you talk it over you'll reach some kind of arrangement. Worst case senario is you lose your deposit and go away a bit wiser to the ways of wily landlords.

Cheers

Chris

pheasantplucker

bitsie.. you don't deserve to get stung with the rent. in my opinion you took out a room in the house.. its the landlords problem if he can't rent out the room. ring these guys http://www.threshold.ie/ they are very helpful on problems like these. they can give proper solid advice on where you stand. good luck.

landser

MorningStar wrote:

I have first hand knowledge that makes me disagree with you. I think if you check the rules around this you might be surprised. Don't believe me but if you ever get into the situation where you need to evicte somebody you will find it tuff going. If you damage something entering a building you have rights to it is not criminal damage.

SHE rented a room the landlord is wrong to think she rented the house with people she just met.

Your first hand experience is anecdotal at best. if she waqsn't paying the full rent, got turfed out and broke in, she can be charged with criminal damage

Bitsie

pheasantplucker wrote:

bitsie.. you don't deserve to get stung with the rent. in my opinion you took out a room in the house.. its the landlords problem if he can't rent out the room. ring these guys http://www.threshold.ie/ they are very helpful on problems like these. they can give proper solid advice on where you stand. good luck.

cheers for that ill definitly check it out anyway if needs be.

MorningStar

landser wrote:

Your first hand experience is anecdotal at best. if she waqsn't paying the full rent, got turfed out and broke in, she can be charged with criminal damage

As I said don't believe me but any landlord who locks a person out is taking a large risk and breaking the law. I had a tenant threaten to stab me and I really wanted him out. The Gardai warned me that they could do nothing but would be forced to help him get back into the house if I did anything like lock him out. If it was as simple as you said I would have done it. Every law and fact contradicts your view and you managed to get the details wrong here so I choose not to believe you as what you say is anecdotal compared to my view of legal options.

landser

MorningStar wrote:

As I said don't believe me but any landlord who locks a person out is taking a large risk and breaking the law. I had a tenant threaten to stab me and I really wanted him out. The Gardai warned me that they could do nothing but would be forced to help him get back into the house if I did anything like lock him out. If it was as simple as you said I would have done it. Every law and fact contradicts your view and you managed to get the details wrong here so I choose not to believe you as what you say is anecdotal compared to my view of legal options.

MS, read my sig!

If he actually did threaten to stab you, this is a criminal offence. why didn;t the gardai act on this????

If the garda told you this, they're wrong. they probably wanted to get rid of you and fob you off (quite common for gardai to do this... cf tons of threads re this on boards). the gardai will not help someone effectively break into a house without just cause. a landlord changing the locks would not be enough. for all they know the "tenant" could be subject to a barring order, eviction notice.

the law is about far more than rules and regs... i know the landlord would be in the wrong if he changed the locks and that the tenant would be in a storng position to get back in, but in order to do so an application would have to be made to the court and the tenant pay the solicitor up front.. read my earlier posts!!!!!!

Every law and fact contradicts your view and you managed to get the details wrong here

enlighten me

MorningStar

landser wrote:

MS, read my sig!


Every law and fact contradicts your view and you managed to get the details wrong here

enlighten me

Read the links already posted and you will find out that what I said is true. The legal details agree with what I was saying so it's not anecdotal while your view is.
There is no lawyers needed for the courts involved in tenancy problems. So this is where you have been wrong about legal costs.
Bistsie is female and you refered to her as male. Where you were wrong again
You also think criminal damge charges would be brought against a tenant breaking into their home. I know this is wrong but couldn't be bothered proving another thing you got wrong.
Are you now enlightened?
Probably just annoyed but I don't trust your view because you have got facts wrong and don't appear to understand the court sytem (maybe you don't care either). I doubt you have ever had to evicted somebody or had to deal with problem tenants.

landser

MorningStar wrote:

Read the links already posted and you will find out that what I said is true. The legal details agree with what I was saying so it's not anecdotal while your view is.
There is no lawyers needed for the courts involved in tenancy problems. So this is where you have been wrong about legal costs.
Bistsie is female and you refered to her as male. Where you were wrong again
You also think criminal damge charges would be brought against a tenant breaking into their home. I know this is wrong but couldn't be bothered proving another thing you got wrong.
Are you now enlightened?
Probably just annoyed but I don't trust your view because you have got facts wrong and don't appear to understand the court sytem (maybe you don't care either). I doubt you have ever had to evicted somebody or had to deal with problem tenants.

anyone who goes to court over a landlord and tenant matter without a lawyer is doomed to failure. the landlord and tenant legislation in this country is a minefield. maybe you have such problems with your tenants because you don't use a lawyer.

I've been to court manys a time (every week in fact) and i know the courts system, so i don't need to be lectured by the veritable man on the street about it.

the only mistake that i made was in relation to the gender of the OP, and i apologise to her for mistaking her for a man (kinda hard to tell from an avatar), but this in no way negates any of the comments made supra. as for the criminal damage element, you're wrong and i know this from fact. if you evicted one of your tenants (rightly or wrongly) and they broke back in, would you not follow them up? although, given that one threatened to stab you, and you did nothing, maybe you wouldn't.

and you're right, i never have had to evict someone. likewise i have never murdered, raped, or robbed someone, but this would not mean that any opinion i had on these matters could be discounted on the basis that i had not indulged in the deed.

Bitsie

eh lads, if you want to argue over this maybe i should start another thread for the two of you so you can let it rip!! :-)