Should RTÉ Drop the DOGs?

DMC

Hi all...

Time for a bit of an online campaign that I know our dear ICDG readers can get behind, like the BBC campaign in the past etc.

At the weekend, I got my first look at RTÉ in widescreen on Sky Digital, and I couldn't believe my eyes what RTÉ were doing with the DOGs on screen, the little RTÉ logos in the top left of the screen.

They looked horrendous, and really bad, compared to what they looked before when they weren't that transparent and even on 4:3. They are too central in the screen, elongated, stretched etc.

Arguments that have been put up in their defence is that they aid channel identification in a multi-channel world. This is not necessary for any of the 5 free-to-air channels in the UK, and the RTÉ channels are at the top of the EPG's. Are people watching RTÉ more because of DOG's? I don't think so.

So.... you the readers of ICDG, you have a chance to add to the debate.

Vote if you want to keep them or ditch them. I intend, after leaving the poll for a few weeks, to mail this onto the RTÉ bigwigs.

Your comments in the thread below are also most welcome, please add to the debate.

Edit: This is a poll not just for Satellite, this is for all platforms; analogue, cable etc.

chorus techy

I agree - they look absolutely awful on sky digital - if they HAVE to keep the logos, they could at least sort out placing them correctly in the very top left corner of the screen when they are not transmitting 16:9 programmes. It looks ridiculous when the DOG is shoved halfway across the screen, because it is still in the 16:9 position! :rolleyes:

If people need a silly little logo permanently on screen to tell them what channel they are watching, they must be stupid. It was a complete waste of money.

Drummer

Maybe you people can tell me why so many things dont fit on the screen anymore. More and more programmes showing signage or writing dont fit on the screen anymore. Is this cos the majority of stations transmit in widescreen format now ?

byte

They should most definitely be dropped. Annoying existance!

Mossy Monk

get rid

those who are confused by what channel they are watching in a multichannel world can use the EPG. keep it on analogue if they worry about those on analogue cable. definately no need for it on Digital TV

Johnny_the_fox

but make them smaller.

byte

If they were to leave it on analogue, I'd hope they would shrink them, push them further to the corner and make them more opaque! Asking for a lot there I guess

Charles Slane

Yes, make them go away !! They really don't serve any real purpose on Sky Digital when you can find out what channel you're watching by the press of one button - and if you're too lazy to do that then you don't deserve to know what channel you're watching

FIRE

chorus techy wrote:

If people need a silly little logo permanently on screen to tell them what channel they are watching, they must be stupid.

Im not stupid, im gifted. the man did tell me!!

I like the dogs, on foreign satellite channels, and have no problems with them.

I dont even have a problem with the RTE dogs, except that they aint transparent. I remember a while ago someone ringing RTE and complaining, to which the person in RTE claimed "they are transparent" :eek:

If they could get them as transparent as TG4, that would be good, but like the rest I agree. WHY do RTE need to have them???

101, 102, 104. We know where they are, and from the rubbish they show we know what channel were watching most of the time.

watty

Everything I have does its own dog:
TVs x 2
VHS x 3
Analog Sat x 3
Digital FTA box
Sky Box
Analog TV card on PC
Satellite Card on PC.

The "Den" dog is the worst.

To answer an earlier post(s)
1. Dogs are placed "in" to suit those with NTL/Chorus/Sky boxes set to CROP an 16:9 picture to 4:3.

2. If you see text /captions chopped then check your TV settings and your Satellite settings:

The "best" setting for ALL program types depends on your TV type. There are Three TV types:
a) 4:3 only TV
b) 4:3 Shape TV that does true WS (by reducing vertical drive as if it had a WS tube).
c) A 16:9 TV

For Type (a) a 4:3 only TV the best setting is 4:3 letterbox. Normal 4:3 material will fill the screen and 16:9 WS will be resized with blank lines to allow viewing the whole picture.

For 16:9 WS and 4:3 sets that sho WS, the setting is 16:9 ON the DIGIBOX, EVEN for 4:3 material. On the TV it is 4:3, 16:9 or Auto. Some channels do not always send the correct flag for Auto. The Sky box sends no WS/4:3 flag on RF aerial connection, only on SCART port. On TVs with multiple SCART only one SCART may have auto WS switch. Composite, S-Video and Component doen't suport WS swtich from Digibox. This is a lack in Sky software, they could do "line23" signalling but don't!

Scottish paddy

I believe the main purpose for having DOGS is to reinforce the “branding” of the channel with viewers. I can maybe understand this for obscure or new satellite channels in a broadcasting landscape of 200 plus channels. What is not acceptable is for a publicly funded national channel to inflict this visual pollution on licence payers. To have programmes that are paid for by the viewer scarred in this way is not on. I have noticed that the DOGS are removed for adverts. Obviously the advertisers will not allow RTÉ to place this intrusion on their output, so why should the ordinary viewer? This campaign is long overdue in my mind, RTÉ should be bombarded with e-mails and letters about this! They should be asked why none of the terrestrial channels in the UK feel the need to have this scarring on their output, but Irish viewers are subjected to it. :mad:

ixtlan

Yes, I agree, get rid of the DOGs... but it's unlikely to happen.

While the UK terrestrial channels don't use them, most other channels do, including Sky One.

Particularly annoying is the use of a DOG to advertise upcoming programmes. Sky have done this and Sci-fi too. Whatever about a small DOG, having "From the earth to the moon, 9pm Mon" scrawled across the screen on sci-fi is absolute insanity...

Ix.

Macy

Totally unnecessary for either analogue or digital. It's not that bloody hard to tell what you're watching. The fact that they can remove them for advertisers is enough to question their need - surely more likely that someone won't know the channel during ads than during programmes?

Round Cable

Well I got my first glimpse of RTÉ WIDESCREEN during the weekend, and the DOG's are disgracful, they are far too big and far too low on the screen. Well done DMC for starting this thread, I sent an email to RTÉ abot the ugly things and they said my comments were passed onto the relevent department. During the days of analouge they needed them for channel indentification, and tuning, in a digital age they are not needed with the epg, and RTÉ introduces them, honestly they are supposed to be Ireland's national broadcaster not some cheap UK digital TV channel.

Unfortunally my email has gone into oblivion, perhaps a concentrated effort here at ICDG could change this and if someone is going to email them, send them a link to this page where they can see the majority of people never wanted them.

EDIT: I have given up watching RTÉ, I just can't watch it, and I loved the stations before the DOG's were 'imposed' on us.

jor el

I voted to get rid of them because I hate them, on all channels. I haven't watched anything on RTE though in quite a while so I can't really remember how bad they are.

I always find that having the damn thing in the middle of the screen (have a widescrean TV) is very annoying too.

Why do you even need to know what channel you're watching anyway. As long as the program your watching is what you want to see right now it doesn't really matter what channel it's on.

Widescreen

In my opinion the DOGS have only become a problem since RTE started their half baked widescreen service on Sky. If a programme is in w/s the DOGS look ok. Problem is that most progs are 4-3 therefore the DOGS looked "lost".
Why o why do RTE half do everything!!

swoofer

Its a shame that a national broadcaster has to get into bed with rubbish sky channels and introduce a DOG. Now get this, RTE, has always broadcast in Ireland but when it went on SKY it opted for DOGS. I wrote to RTE from the beginning and explained that the BBC and ITV ,CH4 and 5 do not have dogs. The BBC tried but had to relent because of complaints. It was a dumbing down by RTE. I had to push for replies and in the end I got phoned and told " WE HAVE ONLY HAD 58 COMPLAINTS!! I gave up. I think the final straw was the screening of the Godfather with a dirty big dog onscreen, I knew then that RTE had sunk to the depths. For RTE read SKY for quality read BBC, shame really. I no longer watch RTE.

I have found in this country that the chance of any national body ever ever admitting it got it wrong is absolutely zilch.

The total irony of the thing is to have a DOG on terrestial TV is that I can only get 4 over the air channels where I live!! 4 and I need an onscreen DOG to let me know what CH I am watching but because of the DOG I don't watch it. That takes some beating. The future of the DOG is very frightening in that we will have the added bits like ALL NEW, or an ad for a programming that is coming up.

Unbelievable

gb--

JohnC.

GBCULLEN wrote:

The future of the DOG is very frightening in that we will have the added bits like ALL NEW, or an ad for a programming that is coming up.

"Will have?" "Future?" I'm sorry to say we already have those now on some channels, and also animated ones. Yes, you read that correctly. Animated.

swoofer

@kahless

I meant on RTE as it appears they have opted to be a mickey mouse broadcaster and slavishly follow the stuff on sky. We will of course keep hearing that we are a higly educated country ie the workforce etc but obiviously not well educated enough to know what tv ch we are watching without an idiotic DOG. I do despair with this dumbing down, its like the management fo litter and waste, how can you engender a sense of quality when the TV medium actually condones littering , eg onscreen rubbish.

I must add that I have found a way round the dogs at last but must keep it secret in case the broadcasters get wind of it.

gb--

Capt'n Midnight

Some people out there may have a TELETEXT button on their remote control. I'm not sure how technically difficult it is to figure out if you are watching RTE using it - IIRC it involves seeing something like AERTEL 1 or AERTEL 2 in where you would normally expect to see the DOG.

I was going to point out that DOGs might be useful to those who had older TV's without TELEWHATSIT but since they've been widely available since 1977 chances are they only have 8 buttons anyway....

The only use I can see for DOG is if they are trying to hunt down people selling pirate videos recorded from the TV, but it's a certainty that someone will already have the pre-release pirate DVD so the chances of this arising are approx. Nil.

Telefís

I can understand why RTÉ want to use them from a branding perspective, and as a graphic, purely in design terms, I think they look very well - they're quite elegant...

I'm 50/50 on this one I'd have to say. I don't watch films on television, so from that point of view I don't experience DOGs at their most irritating.
I think they look fine for most televison programmes to be honest, if not perhaps a teeny bit too big, but otherwise think they're grand.

I don't knoiw what they're like on Sky - certainly if there's aspect ratio problems there, then they ought to be resolved.
But this problem is clouding the issue - how many people voted no on the basis of the Sky problem? If this was sorted how would you vote?
From that perspective, I don't think this poll may be totally accurate...

But a major major problem with RTÉ's ones at the moment that I don't think has been raised anywhere (though it may have been) is how they always disappear!
I watch a lot of RTÉ (you'd never guess ), and from Questions & Answers to the Late Late, after 23.00 or so the DOGs vanish!
Returning from ad breaks around that time on so many programmes, the DOG gets lost during the break! It is utterly ridiculous - like the button-presser has gone home!
Obviously they're mechanially generated, but there's a glitch in the system somewhere.

Round Cable

RTE wrote:

I can understand why RTÉ want to use them from a branding perspective, and as a graphic, purely in design terms, I think they look very well - they're quite elegant...

Elegant??? They're hiddious, huge and too low in the screen, if they really want them they could take a look at how TG4 do them.

RTE wrote:

I don't knoiw what they're like on Sky - certainly if there's aspect ratio problems there, then they ought to be resolved.
But this problem is clouding the issue - how many people voted no on the basis of the Sky problem? If this was sorted how would you vote?
From that perspective, I don't think this poll may be totally accurate...

I for one voted for their removal one way or another.

RTE wrote:

But a major major problem with RTÉ's ones at the moment that I don't think has been raised anywhere (though it may have been) is how they always disappear!
I watch a lot of RTÉ (you'd never guess ), and from Questions & Answers to the Late Late, after 23.00 or so the DOGs vanish!
Returning from ad breaks around that time on so many programmes, the DOG gets lost during the break! It is utterly ridiculous - like the button-presser has gone home!
Obviously they're mechanially generated, but there's a glitch in the system somewhere.

I caught a glimpse of RTÉ without the DOG, and I have to say it looked so much better, much cleaner and my eyes were not dragged up to the top left, by a bright ugly blob.

You say DOG's are not a bad idea, I have more or less stopped watching RTÉ because of them, however I can watch TV3 and TG4 no problem, well TV3 is a rarity too, what's on it?

Macy

RTE wrote:

But this problem is clouding the issue - how many people voted no on the basis of the Sky problem? If this was sorted how would you vote?
From that perspective, I don't think this poll may be totally accurate...

Well personally, I watch RTE on analogue (well when I bother), and bloody annoying they are to me too.

Telefís

Well horses for courses...

They annoyed the hell out of me at first, but I don't mind them now. Agreed that they're not exactly a classy feature on any station - just like microphones in news reports, the best stations hide everything - not wave their branding about in your face.
From that perspective I'd like to see them go. But yes I do think their design is elegant - note not the positioning or size as said before, but simply as a graphic I think they're well designed.

lordluxor

The DOGS are infuriating. Even Sky who DOG everything would not dare do it on their movie channels, yet RTE are happy to destroy the atmosphere of every film that is shown on their channels. I would really be interested to know if viewing figures have decreased since the introduction of these things.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

The only use I can see for DOG is if they are trying to hunt down people selling pirate videos recorded from the TV, but it's a certainty that someone will already have the pre-release pirate DVD so the chances of this arising are approx. Nil.

I seem to remember that Sky Channel (pre-Astra days) used a method like this, but what they did was only showed the DOG for about the first minute of the programme then removed it for the rest. That would still satisfy the piracy issue and I could probably tolerate it.

d-j-k

To be fair to RTE that DOG isn't THAT annoying. It's pretty unobtrusive and seems to actively blend into the background.

It's perfectly understandable that RTE would want to re-inforce its brand name and imaging in this way.

As you may have noticed ALL RTE services now carry heavy RTE branding ... e.g. RTE 2FM, RTE News on 2FM, RTE Radio One, RTE Lyric FM, RTE R na G..

and in TV .. network 2 rebrand to RTE 2 etc.

They're operating in a very compeditive environment and it's important that they ensure that people know what they're watching.

They do need to fix the widescreen positioning issues though..

If you think Sky DOGs are bad ... try American network television!
FOX runs banner advertisments on the bottom of the screen WITH "swooshing" sounds effects!!!!

Round Cable

I have no problem with RTÉ calling Network 2, RTÉ 2, in fact I think it's a good idea, however there is no need for the DOG's and I strongly disagree with you, I find them very intrusive. They're not transparent, far too big and far too low on screen, just looking at the Sky One's Dog, RTÉ's must be twice as thick, if they're that insecure about their brand that they need to permently write it on screen thay could at least look at sister channel TG4, now that's a small non obtrusive DOG, buried at the top of the screen, not near the middle.

urn

d-j-k wrote:

If you think Sky DOGs are bad ... try American network television!
FOX runs banner advertisments on the bottom of the screen WITH "swooshing" sounds effects!!!!

Didn't know about the sound effects, but I generally find the American way of positioning the DOG (transparent and in the bottom right hand corner) less obtrusive. Probably clashes with some programme astons but if it's transparent enough, that wouldn't be a problem.

Quangle

If the channel needs to be displayed continuously then it's unlikely anyone's paying that much attention anyway...

With Digital TV they can probably be implemented as on overlay from the digital-text-thing anyway (like the "press the RED button" logos)

Not sure which I hate more - DOGS or channels turning up the volume for Adverts...

d-j-k

Had a look at the RTE DOGs tonight again and actually, I withdraw my previous remark. They are too big ... taking up far too much horizontal onscreen real estate.

The TV3 DOG is far less annoying... particuarly as it's on the bottom right of the screen rather than the top left.

But it's also much more subtle...

The problem is that RTE ONE and RTE TWO are rather big verbose channel names. If RTE was represented by a simple symbol it would be much less annoying.

E.g. perhaps just the RTE logo followed by 1 or 2.. not the full word.

Anyway, I think spelling the words ONE and TWO out in English is a bit odd for a corporation that is determined to be fully bilingual.

RTE 1 and RTE 2 work in either language!

Do RTE put up RTE ONE / TWO during programming in Irish ?

sergeant121

What's RTE then?

Elmo

The TV3 DOG is far less annoying... particuarly as it's on the bottom right of the screen rather than the top left.

Yes I think TV3 have it in the right place

But it's also much more subtle...

However I think it is just as big as RTÉs DOGs IMO.

Do RTE put up RTE ONE / TWO during programming in Irish ?

Yes they do.

There DOGs do change during the NEWS and sometimes they have RTÉ Sport on the screen during live matches.

The RTÉ ONE DOG does not suit Prime Time or Q&A.

TV3 remove theirs during the news and sport.

TG4 leave there tiny unremarkable dog on screen during all of their programming.

I think all DOGs should go. MTVs get worse by they week.

Some of RTÉ home grown shows don't show them as mentioned before but I think they are introducing them on most of their shows now.

Sometimes RTÉ dogs take over the faces of peole on the screen I noticed once during an episode of The Practice.

Round Cable

Elmo wrote:

However I think it is just as big as RTÉs DOGs IMO.

Not really, the RTÉ one takes up too much horizontal space the TV3 one is square at least.

Capt'n Midnight

sergeant121 wrote:

What's RTE then?

www.rte.ie for those incapable of using google

DOGS are fine on channels you never watch like QVC mainly so you can avoid them. Otherwise they are an irritant.

Solair

Give them a few years and the TV picture will be a small postage stamp sized square sorrounded by tickers, ads, pop ups, banners and other pointless information.

Everytime you change channel you'll be treated to a web-like attack of the pop ups!

Ernest

Can these people be seriously suggesting that they object to the tiny little symbol on the top left of the screen that tells you which channel you have tuned into???? I find them very helpful on any channel especially if I am trying to find the correct channel to video a programme from. Maybe everyone else carefully tunes in and re-sorts, in the preferred order, the various channels that can be received but for me life is too short to go to all the trouble of fully tuning and relocating all the channels every time I get a new video or television so the station logos are helpful if I am not sure which channel I have scanned to. Wheres the harm in the tiny little station name or logo? Its like saying newsagents should cut off the top of the Irish Times or what ever paper you might be reading because you know what paper it is anyway.
Leave these bugs alone!!

Mossy Monk

fair enough but whats the point in having them on a digital service that provides an EPG which will tell you what channel you are on. RTÉ can very simply remove these things from digital but keep them on analogue if they wish

DMC

Well, if you buy the Irish Times, the masthead only appears on the top of page 1, and nowhere else.

As for tuning in a TV, when you only have 8 analogue channels to choose from, its not that hard. Plus once you have tuned in the TV, you are familar with your channel line up on your TV. Its very simple... Button 1 is RTÉ 1 (or BBC 1, your preference!)

In a Digital environment, we have the "search and scan" banners once we select a channel number, that display the channel name and number, and can be recalled at the touch of a button, which can be flicked off very quickly.

Round Cable

Ernest wrote:

Can these people be seriously suggesting that they object to the tiny little symbol on the top left of the screen that tells you which channel you have tuned into???? I find them very helpful on any channel especially if I am trying to find the correct channel to video a programme from. Maybe everyone else carefully tunes in and re-sorts, in the preferred order, the various channels that can be received but for me life is too short to go to all the trouble of fully tuning and relocating all the channels every time I get a new video or television so the station logos are helpful if I am not sure which channel I have scanned to. Wheres the harm in the tiny little station name or logo? Its like saying newsagents should cut off the top of the Irish Times or what ever paper you might be reading because you know what paper it is anyway.
Leave these bugs alone!!

A more fair comparason would be placing the irish times logo over the text of a news story, wouldn't that be annoying? Just like DOG's are on a TV picture. 85% of people that have voted in this thread seems to want them gone, and if you can't find out what channels you're watching either by exclusive programming or one button on your remote control, you're watching analogue, even then there's teletext. The biggest problem with the RTÉ DOG's is that they're not a tiny symbol in the corner of the screen, they're huge and far to central on the picture.

Capt'n Midnight

Mossy Monk wrote:

RTÉ can very simply remove these things from digital but keep them on analogue if they wish

Most people only have 4 analogue channels so they would only be needed for people who are worse at counting than pigeons. Even on satellite you can only see RTE ONE on 101 and RTE TWO on 102 , people who have problems with that concept really have bigger problems than needing DOG's - I'll say it again press the teletext button it will tell you what channel you are on. If using SKY then you can't even change channels without being told what channel you are on.

I use DOGs as a way of telling the quality of a channel. The better channels have no DOGs. It might help with brand recognition, but IMHO hurts the brand quality.

Off Topic link to Memorising stuff
http://www.well.com/user/smalin/miller.html "magic number seven" or "seven plus or minus two"

wheresmejumper

I think RTE will try to use the introduction of RTE on NI Sky subs to justify their presence. This will then be the only platform (I suppose) with RTE not on locations 1+2. Not defending them - but that's the argument we'll hear.

It is worth mailing them - they do read the mail and will eventually reply.

Round Cable

wheresmejumper wrote:

I think RTE will try to use the introduction of RTE on NI Sky subs to justify their presence. This will then be the only platform (I suppose) with RTE not on locations 1+2. Not defending them - but that's the argument we'll hear.

It is worth mailing them - they do read the mail and will eventually reply.

I emailed info@rte, 6 months ago, if I were holding my breath for a reply, I'd be long dead, however I used a different email and got good/fast responces, on the subject to DOG's all I ever got was my comments were passed on to the relevent department, but heard no further, so I assumed the comment got no further. :mad:

Elmo

There isnt much point in having them on analogue either.

1. TG4 and TV3 both have DOGS
2. Can you be that confussed between 4 stations?

Round Cable

Elmo wrote:

There isnt much point in having them on analogue either.

1. TG4 and TV3 both have DOGS
2. Can you be that confussed between 4 stations?

That's it, the quality of unique Irish programming should be their DOG's, besides on analogue, push teletext, and it will say it the top either aertel 1 or 2. I have a funny feeling that RTÉ's DOG's are there because everyone else has one :rolleyes:

dmeehan

i just got sky installed this week
the dogs never really bothered me that much but now with sky and a widescreen telly they are practically in the middle of the screen
:mad:

Danno

What a bunch of whingers yea all are!

swoofer

dano, next time u watch a movie on rte and find your eyes drawn to a dirty big dog RTE ONE and then watch a dvd, the difference is breathtaking, i watch very little on rte but when i do i can hide the dog so not too bothered. its the dumbing down of broadcasting that people object to and I suppose if we all keep moaning about the DOGS and not the rubbish programmes the RTE will have achieved their goal.

gb--

ps of course if you dont notice the dog in the 1st place then you are truly blessed.

Round Cable

I sent RTÉ an email about the logos explaining, how annoying they were and how to improve them, I received a very courteous and fast reply, good job there RTÉ.

The highlights:

It's been a while since we received any complaint with
regards to on-screen logos into the RTÉ Information
Office, but I will forward your e-mail to the Head of
Marketing, RTÉ and to the Head of RTÉ Policy for their
information and consideration.

However, there are no immediate plans at this
time to change the current policy in regard to on-
screen logos but your views will be logged and
circulated generally to senior management also.


So the message here is, if the logos annoy you, tell them about it. I emailed another department before, but never the main address info@rte.ie

Elmo

Well I emailed Both Cathal Goan (DG) and Noel Curren (Head Of TV) with a link to this page.

I think that that is the way to go.

DMC

Sound.