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Homophobic new pope - "gays are evil"
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19-04-2005 4:59pm#1
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seamus wrote:In those days, it was a matter of join the Hitler youth, or watch your Father lose his job and be beaten to a pulp.
True. I was being flippant.
Besides, he was only 5 when the Nazis swept to power, and was only 11 by the beginning of the war anyway, so we shouldn't judge. I wouldn't like ppl judging me on the decisions or actions I made when I was 10 years old...
You could blame his father though.
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I for one
am VERY happy with the new Pope, he is a man of imense talents and intelect, he is strong on the fundementals of faith, and is not afraid to tackle problems head on. He is the right man for the job at the right time. the LAST thing we need is some softee whimp dancing and prancing to the non believers whims!... All these lapsed weaklings rant and rave about church this church that..why should it change ,,just to suit them??..they wouldnt come back even if you allowed smoking weed at the back while listening to Metalicca!,,,so lapsed folks cut the bolloney about why people are leaving the church etc.
The fact that so many have left is a problem for THEM they will one day face their maker, some have legititimate anxietys about church law on this or that,.,.,but why dont they read the chatecism and see what the true teaching ACTUALLy is?..Ive read it from cover to cover,,,JP2 Sighned it into law if ya like and its the most genuine guide to what the RCChurch truly stands for. Read the bit about gays,,etc they should be treated with respect and givne the dignity that every human is entitled to, but their sexual behavior is NOT acceptable. Its amazing how many people jump up and down like spoiled kids ranting and raving, just coz they cant take the truth,,,and this country?..Ireland a nation of complete turn coats,,,running away from the hard truth to bury their heads in a secular lie.
Regarding "the Black pope* etc, well it's obvious its not the man's skin colour that makes him evil but the colour of his heart, there WILL be an evil Pope just as prophesised in revelations as the "false prophet" and if you read St Malachy's prophecies again its turned out right...the Pope after JP2 is the olive branch : Benedict the peace maker!...The last Pope who by the looks of things will reighn in opposition to the false Pope , probably in exile will be Peter the Roman "petrus romanus",,,thru the tribulation and Anti Christ he will feed the lambs etc...So as the fella says..watch the world stage and the signs of the times.
by the way I luuuv rock music and see no problem with that, unless its that dreadful satanic nasty crap that so many youngsters are drawn to
ciao'...Baggio....0 -
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> The RC Church is growing faster now than ever.
Certainly not in Ireland, where it's dying on its knees.
> Islam is by definition, a singular system.
Wrong.
Islam, in most variants, is a decentralized relgious offering, with each local mullah having a good amount of control over how he wishes to interpret his own holy books, in the shape of the Qu'ran, or of the Hadith (the sayings of Mohammad). Roman Catholicism, upon the other hand, is an entirely centralized offering, with its own global government (the Curia), its own governing Canon Law, and with a strict line of obedience from rank'n'file churchgoer, up to the pope, who stands in for god, locally. There is no such requirement for obedience in Islam.
Interestingly, the mechanisms of state which operate in principally-islamic and princlipally-christian nation states follow similar understandings, giving rise to the unfortunate problem that the notion of central authority + government, as understood in the fully democratic countries, has yet fully to take root in many islamic countries.
> It literally is submission to the Koran.
Wrong again.
"Islam" means "peace" and the primary object of Islam is submission to the "will of god" (whatever *that* is; it's as meaningless in an islamic sense, as it is in a christian sense), with other sub-requirements in the shape of the five 'Pillars of Islam' (and others). BTW, the Qu'ran has a neato way of avoiding the possibility of contradictions, such as the genesis one in the other thread. Is anybody sufficiently clued-up about Islam to say what it is?
> This statement is surprisingly ridiculous and counter to evidence.
I'm afraid, pursuant to my above two refutations, that your assertions are counter to the fact, and not just the evidence
- robin.0 -
robindch wrote:I'm afraid, pursuant to my above two refutations, that your assertions are counter to the fact, and not just the evidence
- robin.
Dagnabbit - you beat me to it.0 -
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The Ratzer will reprimand you for bringing your soul into moral turpitude by listening to such stuff. Revere and pay homage to his glorious hymns.Baggio wrote:...
by the way I luuuv rock music and see no problem with that, unless its that dreadful satanic nasty crap that so many youngsters are drawn to0 -
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> I guess the .2% of Roman Catholics who live in Ireland
> should dictate the teaching of the church that claims
> universiality?
Good question, but I'm fairly sure that, along with you, most would certainly wish to! Certainly, all of the catholics I've spoken to in the last day or so seem to think that they should be. Perhaps not all that differently from any other religiously-uniform subgroup within a population?
> Your portrayal of Islam is most patently of a non-believing
> apologist. The Koran is not open to interpretation.
I'm afraid that both the Hadith and the Qu'ran are wide open to interpretation, though slightly less so than the bible, IMHO, since both are far more liberal documents than the bible ever was, or was ever assumed to be. And what appears to be your own very incomplete knowledge of either seems to come a source quite some distance from Islam itself, or indeed, the Qu'ran.
This is one of the reasons, btw, why islam is currently succeeding in infiltrating more countries than christianity, since islam is wide open to local interpretation, and local interpolation, and doesn't require (as I said earlier), the rank'n'file to look up to some elderly chap in a far distant city and accept their instructions from him, but instead from a local guy whom many are likely already know and trust. Christianity, btw, as a societal meme, could learn a lot from this -- decentralized power structures are always more efficient distributors than centralized ones, as communism showed.
And as for being a 'non-believing apologist', well, thanks for the compliment, if that's what it was. FWIW, I am neither a practicing, nor a lapsed, muslim, but instead somebody who's had to sit through interminable, and grossly intemperate, anti-muslim rants delivered by various deeply uninformed and deeply prejudiced (christian) family members, and decided to go off and check a fact or two himself, and found the ranters wanting in all respects. I did, perhaps naively, expect a higher degree of information about pending memetic threats to christianity to be present here, but it seems not to be.
> Catholicism is to Islam what apples are to oranges.
I've no idea what you mean by this -- please expand?
> No doubt, a convoluted argument can be made by
> non-believers that Islam means peace.
It's not really *that* convoluted -- the arabic word 'salaam' means 'peace' and/or 'submission', depending upon context, but the meanings are quite close in any case. The word 'salaam' is closely cognate with the Hebrew word 'shalom' (peace, and, obvisouly enough, produced the word 'i-salaam', or Islam, too.
> Muslims however seem pretty sure that it means
> submission to Allah. That is the arabic translation
> of the word.
Please see previous paragraph. Allah (al + illah) is the arabic word for 'god', as 'deus' is in Latin, 'θεος' is in Greek, 'Бог' in Russian, etc, etc.
> The Koran is the perfect and unalterable and sufficient
> statement by Allah to the world.
I gather that this is what Muslims are required to believe, under threat of eternal damnation, or something similar (and where have we heard *that* before?)
> To be Muslim is to be in submission to the Will of Allah as
> represented in the Koran.
Yep -- more-or-less what I said in my earlier posting. Glad to help you out!
> Forgive me if I take my teaching on Islam from muslims
> and not from disinterested skeptics.
There's no need to be catty about this. I would like to point out that your earlier posting contained well-known, and well-rebutted, falsehoods about Islam. I was just trying to put them right in a forum where doing so might be useful, or at least, informative.
> All this is very nice but has Papa Ratzie actually shown himself
> to be homophobic? Would the thread starter or some similarly
> viewed individual care to convince me that the Pope is actually
> prejudiced against individuals when he calls a behaviour evil?
Take a look at the the Vatican's March 2003 document, Considerations Regarding Proposals To Give Legal Recognition To Unions Between Homosexual Persons, signed by Ratzinger, which contains the following, frankly rather rich, line:
] Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such
] unions would actually mean doing violence to these children
There is plenty more homophobic text within this document -- all of it empty posturing, rhetorical hand-waving, and deeply prejudiced windbaggery and I would challenge anyone to produce from it, a single sentence which emitted the slightest degree of human warmth or compassion, or respect for the feelings, or rights, of others, amongst its ~3000 words of high-handed moral certitude and damnation.
- robin.0 -
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I did, perhaps naively, expect a higher degree of information about pending memetic threats to christianity to be present here, but it seems not to be.
Thanks.
Now in order of Robin's response (but with input from Robin's robin-esque sidekick Eoghan-Psyche):
I actually don't think Catholicism should follow the path shown to it by Irish Catholics. I don't think that there is some moral advantage conferred on people alongside economic advantage. In matters of life, I will take guidance from a Zambian, impoverished and looking for a hot meal, just as equally as I take it from a Dub, laden with goods and looking for someone to hug him. I consider Eoghan-Psych's dismissal of modern African or South American's decisions about their lives to be arrogance.
I am not a Roman Catholic but I think they are answering the needs of their flock in co-operation with their Scriptures and tradition as best they can. I disagree massively with them on a whole range of issues but I don't think that the solution to an apostate nation, or whatever way the Curia would define Ireland, is to change the message.
You then share your opinion on how the Koran is a more liberal text than the Bible and you suggest that local flexibility has led to an Islamic growth. Your idea of decentralised structures are fascinating. I might bring them back to my Presbyterian Elders. Catholicism is not Christianity.
But all this was really written to support your belief that the Koran is a document with genuine flexibility in interpretation.
> Catholicism is to Islam what apples are to oranges.
Eoghan-Psych made my point by misunderstanding me. You were comparing Catholicism to Islam. Catholicism is more like Sunni-ism or the Shi'ites rather than to the lrager movement, Islam, which corresponds to the more general Christianity.
Islam means peace only in that submission to Allah will lead to peace. Peace is a product of Islam but Islam is the life long process of submission.
While your linguistic insights are interesting (I am not being sarcastic anywhere here, in case that is the tone) Muslims, in their practice, live as Islam meaning submission.
You then had some more of those comments that can come across as a little mean on the web but don't really need response. Then, finally on the Islam digression, you rightfully challenge my cattiness (I am sorry for using the word disinterested in such a sarcastic way) and wrap up my falsehoods in the interest of the Board at large. Here is where I disagree then. I think Islam means submission and wrapping a meaning of peace around it is a little unrealistic since the Islamic world defines it as submission. Sincerely, is this not a case of you reforming the identity of a group to suit your discussion's needs?
On top of that, I disagree that the Koran is a flexible document. I can cite lots of examples in Africa of Animist Christianity being practiced on a large scale and in my personal experience, of ancestor worship mixing with Christianity as the norm in Madagascar. There are Roman Catholic communities in Central and South America (and in the past, in the west of Ireland) who exalt Mary to co-redeemer, harking back to their tribal traditions. This does not show the flexibility in the Christian system. It shows Christianity being practiced badly.
Now the word badly is not well chosen there but I am typing this on the go but if you understand that I do not intend to suggest that the practices are bad in a moral sense but just in the sense of being consistent or coherent with the mainstream of historic Christianity.
To finally get around to making my point, Islam practiced as Islam should be practiced, allows a local autonomy in terms of organisational structure but not in terms of doctrine and authority which is clearly invested in the Koran. The Haddith is less to Islam than tradition is to Christianity. Anyway, all of this is digression, for which I apologise...
As far as the homophobia is concerned, to a huge extent I agree with your assessment of Ratzie's Gay Marriage document. He is not Rowan Williams. His writing style is staunch and austere and he seems incapable of writing anything that isn't theology.
However, where does his personal opinion turn into homophobia? I guess that is my question and it would relate back to Incitment to Religious Hatred legislative debate across in the UK but can Ratzie be called a homophobe because he believes that homosexual conduct is wrong and extrapolated from this, that homosexual union bearing children would be wrong?
Thanks for engaging in the debate. It is illuminating stuff.0 -
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