MP3s, piracy, IRMA, morality, the law, -what you think???

condra · 13-04-2005 12:40am #1

Ok everyone - we have a new member here tonight, stand up and intrrduce yourself D..

"Eh..Hi..My names D and Im a Limewire user.
Im also a music fan, and an budding artist.
Right now I have about 100 songs in my share folder, and at this very moment about 2 million people are downloading songs from my hard drive"

Since the announcement that IRMA is taking legal action on 17 whole people, [go IRMA :rolleyes: ] Id like to discuss this and find out peoples opinions.

I was wondering- how did IRMA get the information about these people?
In a legal manner?

Is it legal for ISPs, such as eircom or IBB, to log what sites you visit, and what files you upload/download, and furthermore, to pass that information on to a non government corporate business such as IRMA??
Surely they would not be legally obliged to pass on any of this sort of information and only a significant brown envelope would give IRMA this sort of info... Surely also that would go against most ISPs privacy policies aswell as compromising civil liberties such as the right to surf in privacy thank you very fcuking much.

More thoughts..

How does one get caught using P2P such as Limewire? Without breaking into your house and looking at your hard drive, surely an ISP cant track your downlaods and share this information with others???

Is there any way of protecting this sort of data or does my ISP have access to my surfing wether I like it or not?

Im pretty pissed off right now- it seems that if I want to surf the net Im constantly liable to attack from 2 forms of freaks- :mad: the SCUM who write spyware and virus' trying to infiltrate my computer like well hung zombies breaking into a house full of beautifull naked nuns..
or :mad: the LAW, who are constantly telling me what I should and should not be doing, like some sort of leggy bespectacled boss who wont promote me for fear that I may one day rebel and put an end to her dominatrix fantasys.....

FCUKING INTERNET

I FEEL LIKE A LITTLE WORM ON A REALLY BIG HOOK..

//your thoughts please >>

The General · 13-04-2005 12:49am

i heard that they can make their own mp3 song and put a tracker on it, everytime it is downloaded it sends back info to creator......or is that bittorrent

ykt0di9url7bc3 · 13-04-2005 12:56am

What the eyes dont see, the heart dont feel

cazeone · 13-04-2005 5:05am

The music industry doesn't need to get logs or anything from ISPs, all they do is send them a court order, a list of IP addresses and the times at which these IP addresses were being used for nefarious purposes; the ISPs then give them back a list of the names of their customers who were using those IPs at the time.

They are able to find the IP addresses in the first place by using companies who write special software that mimics the behaviour of common p2p programs like Limewire & Kazzaa. All they have to do is do a search using these programs for a given artist and then their modified program will give them the IP address of each user that is sharing that artist, they can then get a list of all the files shared by that user, info which they'll no doubt use in any court proceedings. I'm not sure if simply getting a list of files shared is enough to break the law, they may also need to actually initiate a download from that user to prove that they have infact uploaded copyrighted material.

The General wrote:

i heard that they can make their own mp3 song and put a tracker on it, everytime it is downloaded it sends back info to creator......or is that bittorrent

No, they can't do that. mp3s are data files, they can't execute code.
With bittorrent they could create their own tracker serving copyrighted data, and anyone who logged into that tracker would be guilty of both uploading and downloading copyrighted data. This would seem similar to entrapment though, so I'm unsure what legal standing it would have.

daveg · 13-04-2005 6:31am

I always compare downloading music to the old days when we would tape records onto blank casettes. Everyone did this.... there was no moral dilema... Just like taping a film off the TV. It's just as illegal as downloading a song. The difference is the music industary loose more money with the whole MP3 issue. My heart bleeds.

zAbbo · 13-04-2005 6:57am

Right now I have about 100 songs in my share folder, and at this very moment about 2 million people are downloading songs from my hard drive

You must have some very popular songs, and a savage upload

Chalk · 13-04-2005 7:04am

I was wondering- how did IRMA get the information about these people?
In a legal manner?

see below....

Right now I have about 100 songs in my share folder, and at this very moment about 2 million people are downloading songs from my hard drive"

Darwin · 13-04-2005 8:04am

Might be easier for them if they just stopped everybody in the street wearing earphones (is that an iPod/iRiver/Creative MP3 player in your pocket? Where did you get that music?)...what daveg says is spot on though... consider the new breed of personal video jukeboxes, how many people watch legitimate content on them such as weddings or other home made videos or movie trailers?

vishal · 13-04-2005 8:10am

you can pay for annonymous proxies. only about $5 per month. they are high bandwidth too.

hostyle · 13-04-2005 8:23am

womoma wrote:

I was wondering- how did IRMA get the information about these people?
In a legal manner?

yes. they hired an american firm to track downloads. of course, they're only tracking the easily trackable stuff - it would be easy enough to stay under their radar if you wanted.

womoma wrote:

Is it legal for ISPs, such as eircom or IBB, to log what sites you visit, and what files you upload/download, and furthermore, to pass that information on to a non government corporate business such as IRMA??

the irish government passed some sort of data retention act there a while back. there was no media coverage or uproar like there should have been.

womoma wrote:

How does one get caught using P2P such as Limewire? Without breaking into your house and looking at your hard drive, surely an ISP cant track your downlaods and share this information with others???

You do realise that all your traffic passes through their routers? have you read your ISP TOS / contract?

womoma wrote:

Is there any way of protecting this sort of data or does my ISP have access to my surfing wether I like it or not?

yes, but unless you're up to "illegal" derring-do are you really that bothered?

The General wrote:

i heard that they can make their own mp3 song and put a tracker on it, everytime it is downloaded it sends back info to creator......or is that bittorrent

that would be entrapment.

I have problems myself with whats going on:

1. They say they've been actively working on this and advertising that its wrong to download illegally for 15 months. Yesterday was the first time I heard of IRMA doing anything about it.

2. IRMA bloke on news last night said to go visit pro-music.org - which lists 5 sites. 2 of these sites require internet explorer. 3 of them require windows media player. one has a messed up server MIME settings (and requires REAL player). the last is itunes which forces DRMed AAC on me. What sort of choice is this for someone running linux who wants to legally download music?

3. IRMA comparing music downloading to the drug trade. WTF?

gobby · 13-04-2005 8:25am

cazeone wrote:

I'm not sure if simply getting a list of files shared is enough to break the law, they may also need to actually initiate a download from that user to prove that they have infact uploaded copyrighted material.

AFAIK all they have to do is to download some copyrighted material from you. That way they have proved that you are hosting copyrighted music illegally and that it is possible for someone to download it from you.

Had to laugh. Was watching the news last night. There was some head honcho on it saying, in disgust, that one person had 3000 songs on their hard drive.

I think at that point most college students split themselves laughing. For one of my mates, multiply that number by 10 (at least).

I dont download much music and I certainly dont use p2p software and I have way more than 3000 songs on my hard drive.

PS: There are alternatives to p2p and torrents.

Captain Trips · 13-04-2005 8:58am

Easiest solution will end up with WiFi nets which don't go through any servers and joining will be based on who you know, etc., .

It will basically result in old-school BBS style activity IMHO. Much better for all concerned!

cazeone · 13-04-2005 9:13am

hostyle wrote:

3. IRMA comparing music downloading to the drug trade. WTF?

That's not as bad as when the RIAA tried to say that p2p piracy was funding al-Qaida!

Sure organised crime may be making money of CD/DVD duplication, but what this has to do with terrorism and p2p I've no idea.

ishnid · 13-04-2005 10:50am

cazeone wrote:

That's not as bad as when the RIAA tried to say that p2p piracy was funding al-Qaida! Sure organised crime may be making money of CD/DVD duplication, but what this has to do with terrorism and p2p I've no idea.

They're not the only ones either. I wouldn't expect anyone to have recently sat through the FACT ad at the start of a video cassette but one of their arguments against ``Copyright Theft'' (which I put in quotes since there's actually no such thing, other than a catchy soundbite) is that it finances terrorism.

Khannie · 13-04-2005 11:05am

Chalk: You get the award for "post of the month".

Pure genius.

Chalk · 13-04-2005 11:40am

WizZard · 13-04-2005 11:41am

womoma wrote:

... civil liberties such as the right to surf in privacy ...

No such thing I'm afraid...

Everything, and I mean everything you do through a modem connected to the 'net can be traced/tracked if someone wants to put enough time, money (legally, no brown envelopes) and effort into it.

Kingsize · 13-04-2005 11:47am

Most Of The Great Music Of The Past 60 Years Has Its Roots In
Copyright Theft.music Industry Are Just Whinging Because People Are Wide To Their Con_job.
i only ever download songs that i would never ever buy.
would high street retailers advocate the banning of the internet itself- due to lost profits.??
remember that the technology available to the average joe download has been made available to him /her by computer tech firms if the music industry has not made moves to change with the times its no good crying over alleged "lost profits".back when we had tapes & LPs they tried to say that home taping was killing music????

why not give us some product that's actually worth spending our hard earned on instyead of trying to foist bad copycat bands on us

Duckjob · 13-04-2005 12:02pm

... civil liberties such as the right to surf in privacy ...

The problem is though, where do you draw the line, i mean, the internet paedophile could argue the same civil right to download material from their manky sites in private. Obviously, the 2 things are morally a million miles away, but they're both illegal.

The problem with broadband connections is it's very easy to see what was what identify what activities went on under your login account, and if there's anything illegal going on, then all your details are there on file with the ISP.

For the laugh, everyone should do their p2p downloading on anonymous go-free dial-up connections. Imagine the fun IRMA would have if they started having to go through Eircom to get lists of phone numbers dialled from

Drummer · 13-04-2005 12:11pm

Simply storing these files on your hard drive makes you liable to prosecution.

Copyright law states that: not only can you not reproduce for sale, hire or public performance, the material you have "assumingly" purchased but you can not store it electronically or otherwise.

This would mean that even copying a cd so that you can have one for the car and one for the house, for your own private use, means you have broken the copyright law.

LFCFan · 13-04-2005 12:14pm

what's the REAL story with the likes of allofmp3.com? Everyone has their opinion on whether it's legal, semi legal, on dodgy ground or just downright illegal! Which is it really?

Orion · 13-04-2005 12:21pm

Kingsize wrote:

would high street retailers advocate the banning of the internet itself- due to lost profits.??

Actually the RIAA would like to ban it :eek: :

The Register wrote:

But rather than having the courage to lobby for the traditional reimbursement model to be applied to digital media, the RIAA instead wants the new technology outlawed.

Article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/13/riaa_sues_internet2_users/

Orion · 13-04-2005 12:26pm

Drummer wrote:

This would mean that even copying a cd so that you can have one for the car and one for the house, for your own private use, means you have broken the copyright law.

That's an extremely gray area. I had this discussion with another gentlemen on this site a short time ago - copyright law in this country is way out of date and don't take electronic media into account. However there are provisions in it for "fair use" which would imply that taking a copy of a legally owned CD purely for your own personal use would most likely fall under that category. However until (if) there is a test case we'll never know for sure.

Infini · 13-04-2005 12:26pm

hostyle wrote:

1. They say they've been actively working on this and advertising that its wrong to download illegally for 15 months. Yesterday was the first time I heard of IRMA doing anything about it.

There has been absolutely nothing about this up to yeserday. I was in college myself for over a year and not once did I hear anything about it. Then they say they've been doing this for 15 months? Maybe they should list everything they've been doing because the first thing i've heard about the IRMA up to now is that they're suing 17 people.

hostyle wrote:

2. IRMA bloke on news last night said to go visit pro-music.org - which lists 5 sites. 2 of these sites require internet explorer. 3 of them require windows media player. one has a messed up server MIME settings (and requires REAL player). the last is itunes which forces DRMed AAC on me. What sort of choice is this for someone running linux who wants to legally download music?

Who in their right mind is going to buy anything from these tool sites. Anyone with half a brain will just go to allofmp3.com for their music. At least they give ya what you want with no bull****. As for iTunes until they realise that DRM is a discouraging factor in legal online purchases then only so many people will be bothered with purchasing off them.

hostyle wrote:

3. IRMA comparing music downloading to the drug trade. WTF?

Their ultimate tactic. Make up non-existant or fake stories and figures that anyone with half a brain will see is a complete lie. The Canadians saw through their bull**** and simply introduced a tax to make up for their REAL losses. They've been telling them to **** off ever since. GO CANADA! :cool:

jor el · 13-04-2005 1:08pm

The IRMA boss guy was on Ian Dempsey's breakfast show this morning too. Dempsey said that he had paid money to some internet site (didn't or wouldn't say which one) for his kids to download music from and IRMA guy replied that if you paid for it then it's legal. I guess that makes allofmp3 legal then, nice one IRMA dude

He also maid mention that they had the user IDs of the illegal sharers. What ID is he talking about? It must be the Kazaa ID which could be anything at all and surely won't stand up in a court. jack@k-lite or mp3man@kazaa is hardly going to be acceptable as legal identification. They also have the IP address which is really the only actual evidence they have.

What we should all do is get some donkey pr0n and rename the file paddy_casey_living.mp3 and wait for the lawsuits to pile in, then produce your illegal mp3 in court :eek: Often, a lot of what's on file sharing networks has little or nothing to do with the filename.

For the laugh, everyone should do their p2p downloading on anonymous go-free dial-up connections. Imagine the fun IRMA would have if they started having to go through Eircom to get lists of phone numbers dialled from

There is no anonymous go free dial up. When you dial in the ISP will keep a record of the landline number and IP address assigned. This leaves a direct trail to you, or at least to whomever leases the phone line.

hostyle · 13-04-2005 1:36pm

Drummer wrote:

Simply storing these files on your hard drive makes you liable to prosecution.

Copyright law states that: not only can you not reproduce for sale, hire or public performance, the material you have "assumingly" purchased but you can not store it electronically or otherwise.

This would mean that even copying a cd so that you can have one for the car and one for the house, for your own private use, means you have broken the copyright law.

God help you if you happen to own and use an mp3 player then.

Khannie · 13-04-2005 1:54pm

Fair use does cover backup copies of your own music. Copyright law in this country may be out of date, but it is very similar to (old) copyright law everywhere else. Also, nobody in the music industry would be stupid enough to try to take someone to court for listening to MP3's of their own legally owned CD's. Even if they did....I suspect that you'd get plenty of offers for free legal aid from Apple

Chalk · 13-04-2005 2:28pm

jor el wrote:

IRMA guy replied that if you paid for it then it's legal.

is that there argument?

what bout when they blocked iutnes for a few years

conversely

what about kazaa plus , taht costs money,
what about newsgroups, they aint free,
ftp axs doesnt come easy.

and not to mention the 1000s of websites with names like the big download sites, that tricked people into paying for little more than access to torrent databses.

they ought to get their facts straight tbh,

btw/

i had to laugh at the guy on tv3 who said "itunes is where users can pay to legally upload music"
:rolleyes:

pickarooney · 13-04-2005 2:33pm

Khannie wrote:

Fair use does cover backup copies of your own music. Copyright law in this country may be out of date, but it is very similar to (old) copyright law everywhere else. Also, nobody in the music industry would be stupid enough to try to take someone to court for listening to MP3's of their own legally owned CD's. Even if they did....I suspect that you'd get plenty of offers for free legal aid from Apple

I dunno, the MPAA did (successfully) sue a child for watching his own legally-purchased DVD on his Linux PC a couple of years back, so anything is possible.

Orion · 13-04-2005 3:03pm

pickarooney wrote:

I dunno, the MPAA did (successfully) sue a child for watching his own legally-purchased DVD on his Linux PC a couple of years back, so anything is possible.

That was because of reverse-engineering. DVD playback is not officially supported in Linux and any software that permits it is illegal under the DRMA. iirc a guy in Sweden wrote software to allow playback on Linux and he was arrested and shut-down. Can't remember the exact details...

cazeone · 13-04-2005 3:11pm

Macros42 wrote:

That was because of reverse-engineering. DVD playback is not officially supported in Linux and any software that permits it is illegal under the DRMA. iirc a guy in Sweden wrote software to allow playback on Linux and he was arrested and shut-down. Can't remember the exact details...

it was Norway, he was tried but not convicted. more here

condra · 13-04-2005 3:37pm

we would tape records onto blank casettes. Everyone did this.... there was no moral dilema... Just like taping a film off the TV. It's just as illegal as downloading a song. The difference is the music industary loose more money with the whole MP3 issue. My heart bleeds.

hahah - my thoughts exactly

Their ultimate tactic. Make up non-existant or fake stories and figures that anyone with half a brain will see is a complete lie. The Canadians saw through their bull**** and simply introduced a tax to make up for their REAL losses. They've been telling them to **** off ever since. GO CANADA!

Yes - GO CANADA- I would also favour a levy, say 10 cents on every CDR.. and let us all get on with it..

***DOWNLOADING ILLEGAL MP3S HAS NOTHING IN COMMON WITH THE DRUG TRADE*** - NOBODY DIES. NOBODY GETS HURT. NOBODY GETS AIDS. THIS WAS A SICK COMPARISON AND IRMA SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES.

IRMA guy replied that if you paid for it then it's legal. I guess that makes allofmp3 legal then, nice one IRMA dude

KOOL!! - HEY EVERYONE- ACCORDING TO IRMA- ITS OK TO USE WWW.ALLOFMP3.COM
WWW.ALLOFMP3.COM
WWW.ALLOFMP3.COM
WWW.ALLOFMP3.COM

spread the word

***

What we should all do is get some donkey pr0n and rename the file paddy_casey_living.mp3 QUOTE]
fcuking genius idea - im on it.. spread the word..
***

Winning Hand · 13-04-2005 5:43pm

Drummer wrote:

This would mean that even copying a cd so that you can have one for the car and one for the house, for your own private use, means you have broken the copyright law.

I thought that was legal under a 'fair use' principle?

Fenster · 13-04-2005 6:01pm

Well first off, myself, I'm a big admirer of Cory Doctorow and his ideas on freedom of information and fair use, so I think what that IRMA's actions are bad in a big way.

These are the same as John Doe suits in the states in that they've a list of IPs and no names, and as with internet paedophiles, only the poor ones get caught, if that's their goal. Those who know how, stay under the radar, so its a grand, futile gesture, in my honest opinion.

Beyond that and similar to DRM, this is meant to scare off regular Joe's who might try filesharing, not the hardcore geeks the like.

So ultimately, I think this is bad form-a knee-jerk copying of the MPAA and RIAA suing people, which so far has been utterly ineffective in stopping P2P and beyond that a PR disaster, such as when they sued the 60-year old grandmother who didn't even listen to music.

Red Alert · 13-04-2005 6:13pm

College WiFi networks, "unofficial" shares on servers, Impromptu Laptop LAN's, not to mention CD-R's ... nice to think there's a backup plan.

Shame on IRMA for the drugs comparison, many people are addicted to hard drugs and are at huge risk of getting AIDS. I wonder has this urchin from IRMA seen the plight of many a drug addict who has died a lonely and painful death as a result. How dare they :mad:

condra · 13-04-2005 6:35pm

Shame on IRMA for the drugs comparison, many people are addicted to hard drugs and are at huge risk of getting AIDS. I wonder has this urchin from IRMA seen the plight of many a drug addict who has died a lonely and painful death as a result. How dare they

im glad im not the only one who sees how sick of a comparisson it is.

Infini · 13-04-2005 6:42pm

They'll stoop to any level the stingy feckin bastards. :mad:

4Xcut · 13-04-2005 7:03pm

This is not me over reacting and being a knob. DO NOT BUY ANY CD. none , not even 1. When enough people do this then they will learn that we decide what's fair.

Red Alert · 13-04-2005 7:27pm

I think if they win one of these court battles the might in fact lose the war as Ireland turns on them!

hostyle · 13-04-2005 7:29pm

4Xcut wrote:

This is not me over reacting and being a knob. DO NOT BUY ANY CD. none , not even 1. When enough people do this then they will learn that we decide what's fair.

No they wont. They'll blame "pirates" - whether there are any or not.

IRMA / RIAA / any other music cartel are not losing billions because of illegal digital downloads. They are losing money because they have so many crap products and are sticking to an outdated busines model, depite the obvious advantages of getting with the times

Terra · 13-04-2005 7:39pm

If you buy something shouldn't you always have the right to share that with someone else.

Fenster · 13-04-2005 7:44pm

Not if you're the IRMA, MPAA or the RIAA, apparently.

Infini · 13-04-2005 7:48pm

Sites of groups opposed to them greedy fatcats.
www.Doom9.org - Learn how to control what's yours.
Electronic Frontier Foundation (www.EFF.org) - Protect your rights to control what's yours.
www.DownhillBattle.org - Join the fight against the people who want to take away what's yours.
www.shutdownthis.com - A more realistic look on the suing of people.
The 2 groups that started this sue the people crap...
The Motion Picture Ass. Of America - Know your enemy. To them, there's no such thing as yours.
The Recording Industry Ass. Of America - The only people more corrupt than the MPAA.
The IFPI - The RIAA and MPAA's corrupt worldwide tools.

jonny68 · 13-04-2005 7:55pm

**** them..ill continue to download songs,etc,what are they gonna do prosecute millions..........

condra · 13-04-2005 8:00pm

**** them

well put

aidan_walsh · 13-04-2005 8:07pm

Just once I'd like to see a serious debate on this that doesn't involve such persuasive arguments as "I'll do what I loike" and "Fug'em..."

Fobia · 13-04-2005 8:17pm

I think alot of this is stupid. Yes, downloading illegal files is wrong, but so are alot of things people do from day to day which result in people apparently losing jobs....

What annoys me about this suing business is that they're chasing the uploaders. This is a good tactic by them as it will discourage people from uploading, but it just plain isn't right. The uploaders are the nice guys, the guys willing to download then waste their bandwidth caps sharing the files out to anyone who might want them. They could just as easily download and leave it at that, but they don't, and now they're being sued.

I can't say that I'm into the whole downloading warez thing - don't like any of these new fancy games and prefer to rent movies out than to download them, but I am quite happy to admit that I hate the IRMA and other organisations dedicated to shutting down p2p networks.

condra · 13-04-2005 8:30pm

Great link:

http://www.doom9.org/

go to downloads for a page full of reccommended download tools for mp3/dvd recording/decoding:)

Infini · 13-04-2005 10:12pm

womoma wrote:

Great link:

http://www.doom9.org/

go to downloads for a page full of reccommended download tools for mp3/dvd recording/decoding:)

Already put up that link.

condra · 13-04-2005 10:25pm

yeah i know.. - i was reitterating

Infini · 13-04-2005 11:27pm

I saw this article on the internet. The RIAA are suing students who used P2P filesharing on the next gen internet2 network. Heres part of it...

Yankee Group senior analyst Mike Goodman, who covers peer-to-peer (P2P) file trading, said he was not surprised that the higher bandwidth Internet2 was being used for file sharing, particularly given the high numbers of college students who are free file traders.

"It's a faster Internet," Goodman told TechNewsWorld. "That means it's that much faster to download files. That's fundamentally what Internet2 was designed to do: large file transfers. It wasn't designed so you could swap movies, but [unlicensed file trading] is never a function of technology, it's a function of what people do with technology."

Goodman, who agreed the students may have felt their activities would go unnoticed because they were not on the main network, said despite the RIAA's claims, its lawsuits against users have had minimal impact on free file sharing.

Goodman reported that while there were about 4.3 million P2P users when the RIAA suits began in September, 2003, the number of free file sharers today has nearly doubled to 8.5 million users.

"So clearly, you can see just how effective these lawsuits are," he said.

MP3s, piracy, IRMA, morality, the law, -what you think???

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