Respecting Other People's Beliefs

Sleepy

Recently we almost had warfare on After Hours when a few of us dared to delight in the passing of the Pope. It got me to thinking though: at what point is it acceptable to disrespect another person's beliefs, if indeed it's ever acceptable.

To my mind, religion is a cancer on humanity. I honestly believe that the Catholic Church is as evil as stormfront. So, why should I respect someone else's belief in and support for that entity? Surely I'm morally obligated to challenge those beliefs that I think have a negative, even evil, impact on this world? Or am I morally obligated not to upset those who follow that set of beliefs?

I'd imagine, if I were to discuss this in terms of National Socialism or Ethnic Purity I'd get a radically different thread. However, seeing as it was the issue of religion that sparked this thought let's go with it. So, what do people think about this? Up to what point is it necessary to accept and respect someone else's beliefs?

meditraitor

whats stormfront

simu

I don't care what other people believe as long as they're not forcing their beliefs on others or hurting others as a result of their beliefs. It could be argued that the Church does this but there are historical reasons why this was so and because the influence of the Church has diminished greatly in recent times, it's not a threat to non-believers anymore. I don't agree with your statement that the Catholic Church is as bad as Stormfront - it's not that simple. Also, you have to distinguish between the Church and its believers. Although many people describe themselves as Catholics, their views won't necessarily be 100% in accordance with those of the Church.

It seems childish and pointless to me to delight in the passing of the Pope. Firstly, the passing of the Pope does not signal the end of Catholicism as he will be replaced and also, it's mean and reactionary!

solas

I think it would be good to recognise that not all people who follow particular beilefs (catholicism/Islam) are evil.

Like most people in this country I stopped practising my religion a long time ago, since then I've walked many paths and the most astounding thing I've seen is the pure hatred for catholicism. Pagans despise them, spiritualists look down on them, for the most part they have about as much respect as Islamic terrorists.

Considering we grew up in a nation that has spent centuries embroiled in a biter religious fued (which is about as religious as my left toenail), I have little tolerance for religious intolerance, from any sector.

In fact I have great sympathy for catholics as a result, most of whom are regular easy going people who don't intere with other people's beliefs in general.

I think peoples fear of religion is the real cancer, not the religions themselves.
Both Islam and Irish christianity are responsible for being keepers of knowledge and helped revive europe and the middle east after years of darkness and war when all that knowledge was lost.
It's very easy to point a finger and blame religions for all the wrong in the world, logicvally it would be just as easy for me to say all men are responsible for all the hatred and war on this planet, yet I doubt that would be up for discussion. (think about it)

People need to come to terms with what I feel is an irrational fear and see past the organisation and beurocracy of such institutions, then they might understand that the most basic teachings of any religion is love, respect, appreciation, unity and peace.

Karl Hungus

Sleepy wrote:

I honestly believe that the Catholic Church is as evil as stormfront.

In all fairness, that's a terrible point. Stormfront isn't evil, it makes a positive impact on our lives by providing endless hilarity. I don't think it's fair to compare a website of jumbled anti-semite conspiracy nuts, right wing christians and pro-lifers to the Catholic Church, because the church actually makes an impact on the world.

I can agree that reveling in the popes death could be deemed as petty, and in the cases of some posters, it certainly is. Even as someone who is against organised religion, especially Catholicism, I haven't thrown up any recent journal entry where I revel in the fact that the pope has kicked it in and died. Infact, I think I only made one little remark, which was something along the lines of him being buried and future generations will use his fosilised remains to fuel the fires of war.

That aside, I don't agree with Simu. Yes the pope will be replaced, but that doesn't mean that Catholicism couldn't drastically change. Imagine if there was a pope elected who realised and henceforth preached that the only thing written in stone (if you'll pardon the pun) is the Ten Commandments, and that taking things out of context from the bible to support backwards ideals and opinions is lunacy.

Of course that kind of logic is rare.

Sleepy

simu wrote:

I don't care what other people believe as long as they're not forcing their beliefs on others or hurting others as a result of their beliefs. It could be argued that the Church does this but there are historical reasons why this was so and because the influence of the Church has diminished greatly in recent times, it's not a threat to non-believers anymore. I don't agree with your statement that the Catholic Church is as bad as Stormfront - it's not that simple. Also, you have to distinguish between the Church and its believers. Although many people describe themselves as Catholics, their views won't necessarily be 100% in accordance with those of the Church.

Well, given that the Church contols a massive amount of the schools in this country, I'd say it's still quite a threat to this country. Given that the Catholic Church is as biggoted as Stormfront in their views of Homosexuality, Women, Abortion etc. I don't think it has any right to force those views on our kids. Would you let an anti-semitic group control schools? No, obviously not. So why let a homophobic organisation control them?

It seems childish and pointless to me to delight in the passing of the Pope. Firstly, the passing of the Pope does not signal the end of Catholicism as he will be replaced and also, it's mean and reactionary!

Given that the Protestent religeons were founded on the principle that anyone could interpret the Bible as they saw fit while the Catholic church still holds onto the belief that only the clergy can interpret the Bible for you. It's a given that a new Pontif will redefine the Catholic faith in some way as it's now his interpretation that matters. Personally, I'd hope that there'll be a more reasonable man elected to the position this time but from what I'm hearing it's looking more likely to be an Opus Dei freak which could be even worse...

Sleepy

solas wrote:

I think it would be good to recognise that not all people who follow particular beilefs (catholicism/Islam) are evil.

Obviously not all believers are evil people. I just think that the organisation they profess faith in is a wolf in lamb's clothing.

I think peoples fear of religion is the real cancer, not the religions themselves.

Who's ever killed out of the fear of religion? Now compare that number to the amount of people killed in the name of God or Allah.

Both Islam and Irish christianity are responsible for being keepers of knowledge and helped revive europe and the middle east after years of darkness and war when all that knowledge was lost.
It's very easy to point a finger and blame religions for all the wrong in the world, logicvally it would be just as easy for me to say all men are responsible for all the hatred and war on this planet, yet I doubt that would be up for discussion. (think about it)

I don't think anyone could claim religion was responsible for all war, but any student of history can tell you it's been responsible for many of them in the past (and still plays a part in war today).

People need to come to terms with what I feel is an irrational fear and see past the organisation and beurocracy of such institutions, then they might understand that the most basic teachings of any religion is love, respect, appreciation, unity and peace.

I don't fear the church in any way. I despise it, yes, but that doesn't mean I fear it. If the first law of Catholicism is to "love one another"; why does the institution allow millions to die because it prefers to hang onto it's wealth?

But to drag this back on-topic. Why should anyone have to respect a belief they consider to be evil? I can't see any reason to.

solas

hate is fear sleepy, born out of ignorance. Many of the church leaders are blinded by it too, I think JP11 was respected by so many because he tried to move beyond it, even though he was limited by the laws laid down. (here's to the introduction of the primacy of conscience)

Love one another is the golden rule in every religion, as for why do millions of people die every year, I ask the same question, but I also recognise that politics has a huge part to play in it. It is mostly debt ridden countries who are suffering, although it would be an amazing gesture for if the RC chrch did decide to pay off all the worlds debt. not sure if it would automatically solve the worlds problems but it would definately go a long way to helping them.
(am I not my brothers keeper?)

If you consider the belief (teachings of christ) evil that really is your problem and imho that kind of attitude just adds fuel to the fire in an already intolerable world.
{quote]Who's ever killed out of the fear of religion? Now compare that number to the amount of people killed in the name of God or Allah.{/quote]
Off the top of my head, Hitler, Bush, (go to yahoo and listen to some of the american chatter about how the muslims are comming to turn them all into islamic fundementalists) I'm thinking in particular how in china most religions are oppressed, as with most communist countries, the ones who have such a great fear of religion that they purposley ban it in case the minions might turn against the government. Many of those countires are also deprived of the most basic human rights.

Did you see any of the stories regarding John Pauls upbringing in Poland while it was under Nazi occupation and how he studied in an underground seminary because he would have been killed if he had been caught practising his beliefs?

Sleepy

solas wrote:

hate is fear sleepy, born out of ignorance. Many of the church leaders are blinded by it too, I think JP11 was respected by so many because he tried to move beyond it, even though he was limited by the laws laid down. (here's to the introduction of the primacy of conscience)

'Hate is fear"? Ever seen Donnie Darko by any chance? That's a stupid statement. Hate and Fear are completely seperate emotions.

Love one another is the golden rule in every religion, as for why do millions of people die every year, I ask the same question, but I also recognise that politics has a huge part to play in it. It is mostly debt ridden countries who are suffering, although it would be an amazing gesture for if the RC chrch did decide to pay off all the worlds debt. not sure if it would automatically solve the worlds problems but it would definately go a long way to helping them.
(am I not my brothers keeper?)

To my mind at least, that's pure hypocrisy. If you preach to your followers that it is their "Christian duty" to help other's and refuse to do it to the utmost of your capacity, you're a hypocrite.

If you consider the belief (teachings of christ) evil that really is your problem and imho that kind of attitude just adds fuel to the fire in an already intolerable world.

Who's ever killed out of the fear of religion? Now compare that number to the amount of people killed in the name of God or Allah.

Off the top of my head, Hitler, Bush, (go to yahoo and listen to some of the american chatter about how the muslims are comming to turn them all into islamic fundementalists) I'm thinking in particular how in china most religions are oppressed, as with most communist countries, the ones who have such a great fear of religion that they purposley ban it in case the minions might turn against the government. Many of those countires are also deprived of the most basic human rights.

The man's central teachings are hardly evil. The institution that's built up around it, however, has done far more evil than good.

Did you see any of the stories regarding John Pauls upbringing in Poland while it was under Nazi occupation and how he studied in an underground seminary because he would have been killed if he had been caught practising his beliefs?

No, but surely he should have learnt enough from the experience not to opress others.

solas

well try to seperate the institutions from the beliefs. Your question asked "why should I respect others beliefs". You have a problem with the catholic church and your projecting your hatred of it unto me.
As far as calling me a hypocrite goes, I've spent many years working in situations in both a voluntary and paid capacity helping others (to help themselves)

I would think that if the church did decide to pay off the global debt, people like you sleepy would probably say its just the churchs way of gaining more power and converting more people. The church didn't cause the debt in the first place, national greed and war for the cause of economics did.
There are christian misionaries working all over countries like africa and asia in the poorest most desolate places, providing aid while getting shot and killed in doing so.
I watched a program the other day about how Moira brennan (from clannad) was made president of the christian blind foundation (or some sort of charity along those lines) She went out as part of her work to witness and participate in the work that helps and treats thousands of africans in combatting river blindness and trachoma.
What did you do today?
Open your mind.

Shabadu

I believe in respecting others beliefs up to a point. I draw the line at people who try to impose their beliefs on others, or who are intolerant of diversity. I also believe in respecting others lack of beliefs.

As long as you tolerate everyone's differences (up to a point- obviously no rabid pro-lifers or neo-nazis included) you're all right by me.

I do have beliefs, however, they're not affiliated to any organised religion; I feel that if you have beliefs and want others to share them you should lead by example.

Thus, I don't mind a bit of laughing about the Pope dying, (ffs, 84 Yr Old Man Dies- World in Shock!) but anything blatantly cruel just said to provoke someone for the hell of it, rather than prove a point about the pope's questionable ethics irks me.

I really can't stand these fervoured attacks on anyone who isn't that bothered about crying for 9 days because yer man died. Grow up, we don't all act and feel the same way.

Nevyn

solas wrote:

. Pagans despise them,

Sigh, you would be wrong there, people who have recently been disillusioned
With christianity/catholism can be upset and bitter but that is not everyone
And not the majority of Pagans. The pagan community understands this process
But it getting to the stage was people are getting feed up with the childish
Lashing out at the church.

The recently deceased Pope did a lot of good, parts of Vatican 2 were never implemented as 'people' would not be able to deal with them.
He apologised for the treatment of women over the years as well.

Yes the stance on contraception and homosexuality has not changed and I think it should not. If that is the beliefs and the doctrine of that religion then they should not pander, they should hold true and set high standards.
There is the chance at confession and the church is a lot more understanding
And forgiving then what it was here only 20 years ago.

In Ireland we have in some ways suffered due to the closeness of church and state and thankfully we are seeing separation but we should not throw the baby out with the bath water. People need to be able to say that they are catholic and mean they adhere to thier religion and go to mass instead of saying I am catholic but not a practicing one.

I know people that have chosen to be catholic and gone back to the church,
And believe and attend services and do thier best to live thier religion. To say
That they are thick, dumb and stupid to do so demeans them when they are following their path like anyone else, would people deride any other religion some one had chosen? Unlikely.

The sooner we can 'get over' hating disliking the church and holding on to it
like an irish identity the better, then maybe we can grow and change as a people.

Sleepy

Jr.Shabadu wrote:

I believe in respecting others beliefs up to a point. I draw the line at people who try to impose their beliefs on others, or who are intolerant of diversity. I also believe in respecting others lack of beliefs.

As long as you tolerate everyone's differences (up to a point- obviously no rabid pro-lifers or neo-nazis included) you're all right by me.

I do have beliefs, however, they're not affiliated to any organised religion; I feel that if you have beliefs and want others to share them you should lead by example.

Thus, I don't mind a bit of laughing about the Pope dying, (ffs, 84 Yr Old Man Dies- World in Shock!) but anything blatantly cruel just said to provoke someone for the hell of it, rather than prove a point about the pope's questionable ethics irks me.

I really can't stand these fervoured attacks on anyone who isn't that bothered about crying for 9 days because yer man died. Grow up, we don't all act and feel the same way.

Thanks for staying on topic

What I'm trying to figure out is where do we draw the line with respecting people's beliefs? To my mind, belief in religion holds back human development and contributes to the rate at which we're trying to kill ourselves off. Does this give me the moral right to disrespect those beliefs? Or do I have to wait for them to try force them on me? (Cases in point being Good Friday's ban on pub opening hours, education provision being predominantly Catholic based in Ireland etc) Or do I have to wait for someone to start killing others in the name of their god before I can disrespect their beliefs?

Where is that line?

solas

Thus, I don't mind a bit of laughing about the Pope dying, (ffs, 84 Yr Old Man Dies- World in Shock!) but anything blatantly cruel just said to provoke someone for the hell of it, rather than prove a point about the pope's questionable ethics irks me.

I don't know who that was directed at, I've watched loads of posters here degrade the pope over the last week or so and have made no comment, I don't particularly pay attantion. It's very childish to saythe least. But I responded to the question about beliefs. I stated in my first post that like most people here I haven't been a practising catholic since i was a child, yet the OP felt it neccessary to attack me and call me a hypocrite because of the churchs failings. ? I don't get it.
Would you like me to go over to the vatican and have a word with the cardinals for you?
This thread never went off topic sleepy, unless off topic is a reference to when people are not agreeing withyou.

Feel free to bash catholics and christians alike, lets make this world a better place for everyone.

Sangre

Well if you genuinely feel against it then I guess who would argue against you actively pursuing those goals? What kind of hypocrit would silence someone who is genuinely trying to do some good?
Eh..oh yeah thats right, everyone.

I dunno, there can't be a line, such is the subjectivety of human nature.
C'est la vie.

P.s. I still think my signature is funny.

Shabadu

Mebbe you should re-read that quote you have of mine Solas, I'll re-phrase it as the sentence was a bit long.

- I don't mind a little humour about the pope's death.
- I do mind people insulting someone's sorrow at the pope's death just to be cruel or controversial.
- I do believe that people have a right to question what I feel were the mis-guided ethical standpoint of the pope.

Btw- you did go off topic. Re-read Sleepy's original post. He wasn't asking specifically about the pope's death, but about drawing the line of tolerance for others views.

Sleepy- it is difficult to say where the line can be drawn, it can never be drawn somewhere that will please everyone {insert PT Barnum phrase here}, and I don't agree where it is drawn by the majority of people. For example, there is no doubt in my mind that Homosexual marriages must be legalised, but most people disagree with me.

I feel the only solution is mass-brainwashing and a benevolent dictatorship ran by me and my cartel of friends and people I admire. Like America, only with brainy leaders.

solas

Sigh, you would be wrong there, people who have recently been disillusioned
With christianity/catholism can be upset and bitter but that is not everyone
And not the majority of Pagans. The pagan community understands this process
But it getting to the stage was people are getting feed up with the childish
Lashing out at the church.

y'know later on in life when i found spirituality I became involved with others who also left behind the original faiths, most of them considered themselves pagan. After spending time in their company I could never consider myself a pagan, purley because I witnesed first hand their passionate hatred for organised religion and how they do look down their noses at all the other "unevolved beings" on the planet. It was like being a member of the nazi party. I don't get it, I've never been hated by the church, or judged by any priest, and as much as the church is not perfect, I have seen more grace and compassion from it than anywhere other faith I have embraced (with maybe an exception to buddhism)
I could understand people having issues if they were abused by some molesting bastard priest, but that hasnt been my experience. I'll just assume that those of you who do hate the church have had such an experience and I'll respect your hatred because of that.

Sangre

solas wrote:

I stated in my first post that like most people here I haven't been a practising catholic since i was a child, yet the OP felt it neccessary to attack me and call me a hypocrite because of the churchs failings. ? I don't get it.

No he didn't

solas

I quoted the wrong line, I meant to reference this

I really can't stand these fervoured attacks on anyone who isn't that bothered about crying for 9 days because yer man died. Grow up, we don't all act and feel the same way.

I haven't seen the attacks in question.

Shabadu

Sangre- don't you mean the Onion's signature?*





*fair enough the onion doesn't use it as a sig, but dammit, give them their due. Intellectual property & wotsits.

Sangre

I never said I wrote it, I assume most people read the Onion. I don't like to unnecessarily clutter my signature.

Shabadu

Solas- that quote was a bit of exaggeration on my part, but you should read some of the poster's comments on the humour board after harmless pope jokes. It wasn't a personal attack on you at all.

solas

No he didn't

yea ....he did...in response to this

solas wrote:

Love one another is the golden rule in every religion, as for why do millions of people die every year, I ask the same question, but I also recognise that politics has a huge part to play in it. It is mostly debt ridden countries who are suffering, although it would be an amazing gesture for if the RC chrch did decide to pay off all the worlds debt. not sure if it would automatically solve the worlds problems but it would definately go a long way to helping them.
(am I not my brothers keeper?)

sleepy wrote:

To my mind at least, that's pure hypocrisy. If you preach to your followers that it is their "Christian duty" to help other's and refuse to do it to the utmost of your capacity, you're a hypocrite.

Sangre

No he didn't.

solas

oh...i get it now.

Shabadu

Oh no he didn't!

He's behind you!

solas

shudup

Nevyn

lol

well if it wasnt OT it sure as hell is now.

solas

makes a good point though.
There's enough hatred in this world, can't we just have a bit of peace for a while?

Zombrex

Sleepy wrote:

Recently we almost had warfare on After Hours when a few of us dared to delight in the passing of the Pope. It got me to thinking though: at what point is it acceptable to disrespect another person's beliefs, if indeed it's ever acceptable.

It is not acceptable to disrespect another persons beliefs, but at the same time it is not disrespectful to not agree with another persons beliefs. It is disrespectful to not respect a persons right to believe in what ever religion or person they want. It is not disrepectful to not believe in the same thing.

For example if you believe the Pope with his stern anti-condom policy has resulted in the deaths of millions of Africans from HIV and AIDS and then say you are glad the Pope is dead, that does not in itself disrespect a Catholics beliefs. You are not saying that Catholics should not follow the Pope, only that you don't follow the Pope and think what he has done is wrong.

I think a lot of religious people, Catholics, Jews what ever, are far to quick to label disagreement as disrespect. Criticising the Pope is not disrespecting Catholics, insulting the Pope, or calling him evil is not disrepecting Catholics, it is simply disagreeing with what Catholics believe. Saying Israel is wrong to kill Palestinan children is not disrespecting Jews.

simu

Sleepy wrote:

Well, given that the Church contols a massive amount of the schools in this country, I'd say it's still quite a threat to this country. Given that the Catholic Church is as biggoted as Stormfront in their views of Homosexuality, Women, Abortion etc. I don't think it has any right to force those views on our kids. Would you let an anti-semitic group control schools? No, obviously not. So why let a homophobic organisation control them?

Heh, the way they teach religion in schools here probably helps to create atheists! I'd prefer to have secular schools but the main reason that hasn't happened is that most Irish people don't care and so, there has never been a campaign to separate religion and schools (apart from the creation of the odd non-denominational school). I'd call it an annoyance rather than a threat, though.