Programming In College

DMX · 01-07-2001 10:47pm #1

Hey programmers, whassup? I'm thinkin of doin programming or something of the lines of that in college,
Does anybody no what qualifications/grades in leaving cert u need for a course e.g. in an IT e.g.CIT,WIT or what subjects i should have done for the leaving???
Any replies and i would be most appreciative

>DMX<

Trojan · 02-07-2001 2:11am

Er, way out of date info here, did it 5 year ago, but needed 250 for GMIT Cbar, 300 for GMIT, 4xx for NUIG, high 4s for UL and WIT courses (the best or so I've been told).

Basically you can get in with mediocre points if you go to an IT or smaller college, and you can get damn good courses there, ask people going/went there, dont listen to people in Unis who say that ITs are crap (talking sh|te oneupmanship, you get it a lot).

And are ITs really cr@p? I'd hire someone from one before TCD any day. So much for trinners baby ...

I've a BSc from GMIT, did 1st 3 years in Castlebar, last in Galway, fyi.

Awright? Hope this helps.

Al.

logic1 · 02-07-2001 10:35am

I did the cert in Industrial in WIT umm four (I think) years ago. At that time it was 330 to get in.. then I went into the BSc in Applied Computing afterwards and that was about 360 to get in...

Not sure what it would be now and maths and physics are about the most pertinent subjects in school.

.logic.

Scorpion · 04-07-2001 1:20pm

Skip college, buy some books and take up a full time job doing whatever. College / Leaving Cert are seriously over rated.

Kali · 04-07-2001 1:57pm

no college, no life

teac! · 04-07-2001 2:18pm

Originally posted by Scorpion:
Skip college, buy some books and take up a full time job doing whatever. College / Leaving Cert are seriously over rated.

On a technical level, they generally don't specialise enough, or let you specialise enough. However on a personal level, the "College experience", if you'll excuse my marketing-type language, cannot be beaten. Get involved in social activities, you learn a lot about yourself, and more about interacting with people and how to conduct yourself, as well as meeting important contacts for later on in life.

Societies and Clubs are small organisations, and if they give you an insight into how organisation on a smaller scale than most businesses are done. Universities are reknowned I suppose in this regard for them, but lately from what I've been hearing from friends in IT's, socieities and clubs are now booming there too, especially growing in the computer related areas.

To be honest, the piece of paper at the end isn't what college is all about.

Phil.

K!LL!@N · 04-07-2001 2:48pm

Originally posted by Trojan:
And are ITs really cr@p? I'd hire someone from one before TCD any day. So much for trinners baby ...

Why exactly would you hire someone from an IT before TCD?
You talked about snobbery and one-up-manship and then you say something like this.
I think you're the snob.
It was attitudes like that made me not want to come to Trinity, but once i got here i found that the majority of people are fine and aren't one bit snobby.
Not everyone in "Trinners" plays rugby and drinks "Heino" in the Pav.
I would probably have had to go to an IT if it weren't for free fees and grants.
A degree is a degree, if you work hard for it. You the deserve a bit of respect for it.
Take your own brand of snobbery elsewhere.

DeadBankClerk · 04-07-2001 5:43pm

Originally posted by K!LL!@N:
Not everyone in "Trinners" plays rugby and drinks "Heino" in the Pav.

True. I play cricket and drink heino in the buttery.

=D

- Dead Bank Clerk -

Originally posted by Irishbabe8282:
"AND hes thes Horniest Motha ****a ive ever
spoken to ....especially for a first pm"

Trojan · 05-07-2001 3:37am

Originally posted by K!LL!@N:
Why exactly would you hire someone from an IT before TCD?

Simply because people who've been in an IT are going to know how to switch on a pc and actually use an IDE, as opposed to having a wonderful understanding of 10k different sorting algorithms and being able to discuss which are mathematically superior, which is more likely what you'll find in a TCD comp grad. Or so I've been told (by some of the Trinners crowd), but maybe my info is way outta date, things move fast. I guess it depends on what you're looking for in a grad.

Originally posted by K!LL!@N:

You talked about snobbery and one-up-manship and then you say something like this.
I think you're the snob.

rotfl, thanks, first time I've ever been called a snob! of all things

Originally posted by K!LL!@N:

It was attitudes like that made me not want to come to Trinity, but once i got here i found that the majority of people are fine and aren't one bit snobby.

Well I'm glad you didnt let something like the course content influence your college choice.

Yes, that is what I am talking about btw, nothing about the people or culture.

Originally posted by K!LL!@N:

Not everyone in "Trinners" plays rugby and drinks "Heino" in the Pav.

LOL

Those nasty rugby-players! How dare they! I hate them all (you can see sports board on my views on how we can exterminate rugby from Irish society).

I do encourage drinking, though not so fond of the Hydrogen, makes me ill sometimes.

I am a cricket fan though, I wonder how that fits in with your criticism ...

Originally posted by K!LL!@N:

A degree is a degree, if you work hard for it. You the deserve a bit of respect for it.

Sure, but people will make decisions and judgements based on your degree. What I was saying, and was so cruelly misunderstood by you on, was that I would judge the degree by its contents, and not on the name of the college.

Originally posted by K!LL!@N:

Take your own brand of snobbery elsewhere.

Hmm, I still find that funny

Apologies if I did come across as having a problem with TCD itself, I don't mean anything againsts TCD ug's or grads, just the fact that the course would not be as practical as some others. Correct me if that is not know the case, and you are learning how to program in commercial languages, as opposed to academic ones.

It seems I'm not the only one to share this opinion:

Indeed, the degree programmes from Ireland's two most prominent universities, Trinity College and University College Dublin, don't seem to bestow any particular air of desirability onto its graduates. In the annual technology sector jobs survey produced by Dublin employment agency CSR, employers opted first for graduates of the State's institutes of technology, with UCD and TCD further down the list.

( From http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/finance/1999/0423/tech6.htm )

So I won't be taking my own particular brand of snobbery anywhere, as it does not exist (except in the minds of someone who obviously missed my point).

Al.

phobos · 05-07-2001 4:16am

K,

I have to agree with Trojan because I understand exactly where he is coming from. I have many friends who are still undergrads in CS. Each one is in a different college. I have two friends in Universities, and several more in ITs. My friends in Uni are really p'ed off with their version of the course compared to mine (material + subjects), BTW I'm in GMIT Castlebar. When they look @ job adverts they see skills and qualification that do not reflect anything similar to what they are learning in college. We are all entering our Final Year Degree's, and I am very happy with the level of knowledge I obtained through my college years so far, compared to that of my Uni friends. I can walk away with my skills, work on my own, in a team, and more importantly know how to continuously upgrade my skills.

I don't think it is fare to say that one educational institute is better than another. But what is a well-known fact is that people in Uni's often look down @ ITs. I don't know why this is, because it is a well known fact that IT grads will be more prepared for the industry, than their Uni counterparts. Who incidentally upon graduation conclude their "4yr Guide to a Comprehensive Slapped About Computer Mindset". Quoted from a recent Uni CS graduate.

;-phobos-)

Greenbean · 05-07-2001 4:45am

Computer Science degrees teach you exactly that. You come out a scientist, not a computer programmer. A natural conclusion to a computer science degree is to research those algorithms for more efficency, to advance techniques on the use of parallel computers, the simulation of sound and vision - the advancement of a mathematical repsentation of logic.. etc etc. Computer Science degrees do not directly make a code monkey.

I've heard it said time and time again, that people will look for courses with obvious pratical experience in tools that people use today and now. Engineering students are considered much better at fitting into a development team. They understand the concept of using pre-made tools and units and are very aware of their availability. Computer Science teaches you how to over come problems (big time) and it teaches you a theory of programming languages and computers - its not big on the details. Where a computer scientist needs to build a go-kart, they try to invent the wheel first, and then understand how the steering wheel interfaces with the wheels - whereas an engineer or practical student buys the fcken wheels and sticks it together like they were shown. Conversely a computer science student doesn't think twice about scaling a huge wall, they'll invent a way around - where as another person may say they've not got the pratical training, or this is not something they know about.

As a computer scientist want you want is someone who is prepared to train you up. You don't want someone who will burn you out and just needs the skills there and now. As a computer scientist the future is not a scary place where your skills become old and out of date, you should be able to adapt to anything for alot longer.

Ronin · 05-07-2001 1:25pm

..I agree with John, although the practical applications in most CS isn't all that good. They want you to learn it yourself and think for yourself, although in recent years its becoming more spoon fed then the previous year.

Different courses suit different people. It all depends on what your looking to learn. We learned the theory and history of computer science and how to get a basic understanding of the various programming models, with a bit of practical thrown in for good measure, but most of the exams where all theory based.

As for skipping college, forget that, college was where i met most of my mates and most of the people I know from the boards. College is deffo a cool experience..

Ro

black_wizardd · 05-07-2001 2:56pm

Alot of good points from both sides but IT's still own Uni's

, ah no just 'aving a larf. I suppose it's everyone to their own, depends on what you want from your education. I know nothing about CS courses and what they study cause I have no mates doing one, all my mates studied in IT's (as did I), so I'm not going to comment on the Uni vs IT issue cause it would be uneducated info, just thought I'd say that both sides have good points.

DMX, just phone the college that you are interested in and ask them for a prospectus, that will tell you what subjects you need etc.

But oh, no tears please, fear and pain may acompany death, but it is desire that sheperds its certainty, as we shall see...

[This message has been edited by black_wizardd (edited 05-07-2001).]

Trojan · 05-07-2001 6:26pm

Ah don't be bringing it back to Uni vs IT again, it's a question of course choice we were talking about.

I think a good summary of John & Paul is to say that CS grads are much better at handling change and problem solving.

On the other hand, I've got a job.

(puts away petrol)

Al.

Kali · 05-07-2001 9:11pm

ahh but Trojan it was you who brought up the IT vs Uni debate in the first place, I can't say I've ever heard anyone say ITs are crap and Unis are great (in fact I've never even used the word university myself) like you said.. and I've never heard that attitude during my time in college, nor have any of my friends in ITs, perhaps its a Galway thing?

Personally as long as your interested in what you are doing, have a good bit of a laugh for three/four years and get a piece of paper at the end of the day who gives a toss.

btw.. CS smells, long live CA

[This message has been edited by Kali (edited 05-07-2001).]

But · 05-07-2001 10:46pm

My interest in programming began before I started Secondary School. I believe any one actually suited, or desiring to being a programmer, should have an interest well before the CAO forms come out. Any of those who choose programming as a career afterwards are choosing their career for the wrong reasons ( and typically fail miserably).
BTW the Trinity crowd are nothing (from personal experience), great self-confidence, but the career they've chosen is based on their parents input. If they'd have wanted to be computer programmers they would have learned programming a long time before the Junior/Inter Cert.

K!LL!@N · 06-07-2001 12:07am

There are way too many people to quote here. Lots of valid points and a number of idiotic ones. I really can't let But's remarks go by without comment. You say that only people who start programming at an early age can succeed in it. What an incredibly stupid generalisation. By your reckoning my choosen career should be Master Lego Builder, as that's what i spent a lot of my childhood doing. Perhaps i'm wrong, perhaps we may have a little more time to find our true career, if that's the case then my career would have been chosen in my early teens. If that was the case, then i'd be Professional Sega Megadrive player. Do you see how stupid that remark was now? I don't think i really need to go on.

Back to Trojan, i hear what you're saying. And i agree that some graduates lack necessary practical skills. But this isn't always a reflection on the course, more a reflection on the student. I'm not going to start commenting on things i know nothing about. Therefore i'm not going generalise about the course content of IT's. And despite what you might think i did plenty of research into the course content of all of the courses i had on my CAO form. They wouldn't have been on it, if i wasn't satisfied that they were what i was after. Hence the fact that i didn't even use all of my available choices. And yes i did have a couple of IT courses down there.

You asked to be corrected if i actually study commercial programming languages in college. Would you class C, C++, Java, PHP, HTML ( yeah i know, but it is of commercial use ), SQL on Oracle and MySQL DB's and more, as commercial programming languages?

The point about being a scientist at the end of a computer science degree is a valid one (No i'm not studying computer science.). You learn the principles of programming in a particular language. Take OO programming for example. You learn the principles of OO in C++, become competent and then it is only a matter of learning the syntax of another language, Java for example, to be able to program in that langauge. Are you seeing my point? This is the approach that a lot of universities take. And i think it's a pretty good way to teach students. Programming is not a static profession. There will always be a new and improve way of doing things. And you need to be able to learn fast. I'm not saying IT's don't encourage this, for all i know they do. But i know from personal experience that i found it easy to get to grips with a new language because of the principles i had learned previously, and these principles were applicable to a different language.

I feel i might have gone on for a bit, but i hope my points haven't been lost. I apologise for calling you a snob Trojan, i did understand your point. But i just wanted to draw attention to the other meaning it implied. Maybe when you're choosing new employees in the future you could test them on their abilities first, see if they meet your requirements and then find out what college they went to. You might be surprised.

Void · 06-07-2001 12:14am

I am going to lock this post if this silliness persists. Suffice to say that some people program because they enjoy it, and others because of more mercenary reasons. Both of these motivations are perfectly valid.

On a more personal note, I'd rather be kicked out of TCD than some poxy IT *dives for cover*.

jd · 06-07-2001 12:33am

On a more personal note, I'd rather be kicked out of TCD than some poxy IT *dives for cover*.

Nearly happened to me he..
You can also do Computer Engineering in Trinity through Engineering(Some of the Iona Crowd came from it) , but there are two years of general Engineering, computers,science and maths..
jd

[This message has been edited by jd (edited 06-07-2001).]

But · 06-07-2001 12:47am

By your reckoning my choosen career should be Master Lego Builder, as that's what i spent a lot of my childhood doing.

No, that's not my reckoning.

I also played with Lego, but programming was also a hobby, or even a means of entertainment. I myself did not begin my working life as a programmer ( fearing that programming for an occupation might quench the actual enjoyment of programming ), but now working as one, and with ppl whom programme I can see in those ppl who haven't spent their youth at it, that proramming is not suited to them. They simply don't enjoy it, and to succeed you must enjoy it, otherwise you don't have the enthuasism to learn. Maybe I'm wrong, but to date thats what I've seen...

DMX · 06-07-2001 1:42am

Yo thanks but.
Could u gimme any url's or books or **** that i could get or progs or anything coz i really wanna do somethin on da lines of this(please).
Thank you

>DMX<

DeadBankClerk · 06-07-2001 11:53pm

a typical day in first year computer science.

9:00 arrive at college (dad works about 50m from the hamilton building) skip first lecture. log on to irc. wait for boards to trun on (usually around 10:30am) post on every active thread since last night.

1:00 get some lunch (curried chips and sausages)

2:00 play quake till dinner time.

6:00 go home. eat food.

mmmm........ complex sorting alogerithyms.

- Dead Bank Clerk -

Originally posted by Irishbabe8282:
"AND hes thes Horniest Motha ****a ive ever
spoken to ....especially for a first pm"

Scorpion · 07-07-2001 12:20am

Well if you're looking to learn C I recommend Jamsa's C/C++ Programmers Bible. Although it's probably not best suited to the novice it does go into the basics, offering example code and includes a restricted dos compiler. It's VERY thorough (it's about half a foot thick). I'm not sure if it covers Linux programming specifically as the emphasis thus far seems to be on DOS / general console environement. I know it does have extensive content on the Windows API. It'll set you back £45 tho.

My comment regarding skipping college relates to my having tried it and immediately disliking the pace. While I agree with taec in terms of personal developement and social benefits, I found it just held me back. I could learn more efficiently alone, from books while earning a (semi) decent salary working in web developement full time.

Like, the course I did, regardless of how quickly I could take in stuff, I always had to wait for the slow ones to catch up which resulted in constantly being bored. There are better courses available, I'm sure..

[This message has been edited by Scorpion (edited 06-07-2001).]

Greenbean · 07-07-2001 2:49am

First year? Second year even. Just skip them and do something more collegy. You'll find less time as each year goes by.

K!LL!@N · 08-07-2001 5:16pm

That's all well and good Marc.
But did you pass all of your exams?

plastic membrane · 08-07-2001 10:24pm

I did programming for three years at an IT, and while i didnt pass with flying colours, i did pass, and im the first to admit to only having a basic interest in the subject, let alone the skills. But i got through it, because the course was excellent, the lecturers were decent, and i actually learned to really enjoy the work.

Ive no idea what the points are like, but if you have the interest, it dosnt matter what the points are, just go for it..

By the way, i was in the same year as Trojan, and mad as he is, he's no snob..

So Trojan, i'll meet you down at the golf club later so we can sneer at the lower classes and kick homeless people in the face on the way home, yah ?

Who is The Beefy King ?

Owing to an administrative error, the Pope had been replaced by Lemmy from Moterhead...

phobos · 09-07-2001 5:25am

Oh yes college can be kewl,

I remember how myself and plastic(above), black_wizardd and a few others got together for night before study sessions. Here we made countless trips to the 24h for caffeine, acted out snippets from Monty Python, and recorded farting sounds with my laptop microphone. Oh exams in college, those good times bring tears of joy.

The kewl thing was we passed too!

;-phobos-)

Trojan · 09-07-2001 6:08am

Originally posted by plastic membrane:
So Trojan, i'll meet you down at the golf club later so we can sneer at the lower classes and kick homeless people in the face on the way home, yah ?

I don't know, I'll be taking the new 7-series out for a spin, and you know how I don't like to get the carpets dirty!

Al.

plastic membrane · 12-07-2001 6:24pm

Originally posted by phobos:
Oh yes college can be kewl,

I remember how myself and plastic(above), black_wizardd and a few others got together for night before study sessions. Here we made countless trips to the 24h for caffeine, acted out snippets from Monty Python, and recorded farting sounds with my laptop microphone. Oh exams in college, those good times bring tears of joy.

The kewl thing was we passed too!

;-phobos-)

<sniff> happy days...

Who is The Beefy King ?

Owing to an administrative error, the Pope had been replaced by Lemmy from Moterhead...

Void · 14-07-2001 4:43am

IT's are grand, just make sure you go to a decent one.

For example, BIT (Blanchardstown..... I know, I know.....) is a bunch of prefabs with a T3. They will hopefully have proper buildings for next term but count on some delays. How do I know this? Well, one of my mates works on the building site there, and he's a useless f*cker (I just carried him home, it's now 4:30am, he is supposed to be working there at 8:00am). Not that my mate is the major driving force behind the entire construction effort, but he tells me they are way behind.

What does this have to do with programming?
Nothing.
Bugger.

phobos · 14-07-2001 5:31am

Entering my final year Degree in CS @ GMIT Castlbar, I have nothing bad to say.

I remember when I went there first, I hated it. I though small town, kewl college though. But the bloody thing is expanding so fast. Every year there is @ least 1 new computer lab. I can say the same thing about the town also. I would honestly say that it has doubled in size since the college opened (only in 1994, so it's damn modern).

The kewl thing about Castlbar campus is that it's not huge population wise. I met some of kewlest ppl on the planet there. Most of the campus ppl are not actually from Castlebar, they're from all parts of Eire.

The only reason the points aren't huge for Castlebar is because, ppl think, that there must be no craic in such a small place. I was one of those ppl, but my opinions changed fast. The social experience is amazing. C'bar campus is like a big family of students that are all in it for the craic, and the lecturers are young and sound (Especially the CS ones).

Because in the ITs you go through the Cert./Diploma/Degree path, you select where you want to study for your next course. You can apply to any other IT in the country. Since I have finished my Diploma and are entering my final year degree, I applied for Galway and Castlebar (that is the norm, even if you don't want to switch college). Because I got a distinction in my exams I was offered both Galway + Castlbar to do my degree. Even though I am from Galway City, I am still going back to Castlbar!.

I am amonst the first batch of students to do the degree in the college, which is just starting up in September. I am very excited about the whole thing because we are doing kewl stuff like OpenGL (+ games programming), Enterprise Java (XML, EJBs, JSP etc.), even wireless technologies such as WAP & 3G. It's a no bull**** course, it doesn't make you do old stuff like COBOL etc (more popular colleges do!).

Anway I am writing way too much here, even though I could keep going. If you want to find out anything else about the campus, mail me

;-phobos-)

Programming In College

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