SF/IRAs record against drug dealers

Sand

When theyre not amusing us with the irony of attacking the McCartney sisters as media whores with dodgy financial backing, SF/IRA are fond of talking up their record of murdering drug dealers. Or alleged drug dealers.

Like Gerrard Quinn told Alex Maskey, its not the men in police uniforms people are afraid of, its the men in balaclavas. Do SF/IRA fanboys seriously think SF/IRA has seriously engaged with a peace proccess when the events above, including hiring RIRA figures as flags of convenience to murder people, have occured and are occuring? SF/IRA would like you to think that the McCartney killing was an exception, but its only exceptional in the media attention it has received. The peace proccess is dead, it was always dead.

Sand

Link from above as I know some cant read unision.

The events that led to Matthew Burns's murder and the injuring of his brother Patrick began in early 2000. Matthew had become involved in a local dispute that had pitted him against local IRA figures,including the "officercommanding" of the localIRA unit.

There are very few people who could have tangled one-to-one with Matthew Burns, who was an expert kick-boxer with a body that looked as if it was chiselled from stone.

The row with the IRA grew during late 1999 and early 2000, to the point where thelocal IRA boss directed that Matthew be given a vicious beating and be shot, probably in the legs or arms.

A gang of seven IRA men was gathered to administer the usual vicious punishment beating. They were armed with baseball bats, at least one of which had six-inch nails hammered through it, and one had a handgun.

The gang, all wearing balaclavas, confronted Matthew outside his mother's house in JF Kennedy Park on the outskirts of Castlewellan. Despite a glancing blow to his head which opened a large gash, Matthew was able to keep on his feet. And despite being unarmed, he managed to set about the gang in the way that only a champion kick-boxer could. He was enormously strong, and in a prolonged one-against-seven contest he overcame the gang, finally pulling the balaclava off one man - the local IRA "officer commanding" and exposing him to people who had come out of their houses. Unmasking the IRA man almost certainly saved his life at this point as the "commander" could not afford to be seen giving the order to have Matthew shot in front of witnesses. The gang ran off.

But that humiliation - a seven-man IRA gang bested by one enormously strong young man - sealed Matthew's eventual fate. In Castlewellan, just as in Belfast Short Strand where Robert McCartney was murdered for standing up to the IRA for his friend, no one is allowed to resist the will of the IRA.

Matthew, who was 26 and in a relationship with a girl from Newcastle, Co Down, became the subject of a vendetta. In February 2001 a booby-trap bomb in a paint tin was placed on his car during a visit to his girlfriend's mother's house. Unwittingly Matthew knocked the bomb on to the pavement, where it exploded. Though he was unhurt by the shrapnel wrapped around the explosive charge, his girlfriend received aserious leg injury.

The couple, who were by then expecting a daughter, spent time living in bed and breakfasts and a hostel before getting a small public authority house in Ballynahinch, a town about 12 miles from Castlewellan where they felt safer. Matthew, however, continued to visit his family,calling regularly to hisparents' home.

After that failed bomb attack the IRA began a new tactic: smearing Matthew as a drug dealer. The smear was totally fabricated, say his family and friends. Matthew worked as a joiner and at the time had moved into working on a sub-contract basis. The fact that he and his girlfriend had also lived in B&Bs and a hostel before getting on an emergency housing list suggests that he was not in receipt of drug profits.

He was also a fitness fanatic who never smoked or drank. After work he spent a great deal of time training at kick-boxing with the Northern tae kwon do academy, where he was regarded as one of the North's most promising fighters. He was dedicated to the campaign to have tae kwon do included as an Olympic sport and hoped to compete in a future Olympic Games. His dedication to the sport precluded any use of recreational drugs.

The whispering campaign about him being a drug dealer went on for months in the latter half of 2001. Matthew knew he was being smeared and could again be attacked, but he refused to submit to threats to stay away from the area he grew up in and where his mother and family lived.

THE end came on February 21, 2002. Matthew called to his mother's house, where he was being collected by his brother Patrick for their regular training session at a gymnasium in Rathfriland. Their other brother, Sean, had the 'flu and had dropped out of that night's training session.

Less than a minute after leaving the house, and only a few hundred yards away as the car slowed before turning on to the main Castlewellan to Rathfriland road, a gunman opened fire with a high-powered assault shotgun, an Italian-manufactured weapon that fires steel ball bearings with destructive power.

The first blast disabled the car engine. The second, fired at point-blank range, tore through Matthew's chest and neck. Two of the steel pellets hit Patrick in the hand and arm.

Mrs Burns recalls: "Matthew arrived around 6.40pm and sat with me in the living room. He was always talking about diets and discussing this and that about diet. Sean would have been there that night but he had the 'flu. There was only Patrick there. When Matthew was going he kissed me on the forehead. He was very affectionate and protective. He had his (gym) bag in his hand at the door and he said he would see me later.

"About seven o'clock there was rap at the door and this young fellow was standing there and asked if I was Mrs Burns. He said Patrick was in an accident, Patrick was hurt. I went down there. I saw the police tapes and the ambulance. There was a policeman there and I just ran under the tapes and said, 'I am their mother.' Patrick was standing there. He was very, very pale. He said not to go up to Matthew. Matthew was lying on a stretcher. He was not covered.

"I still thought it was a car accident. It was only when my daughter came running down, without her shoes, and said Matthew had been shot. I knelt there holding the blanket over him for maybe two hours before the undertakers came to take him away."

The PSNI believe the man who shot Matthew is a supposed member of the "Real" IRA from nearby Kilcoo, brought in by the local Provisional IRA boss to carry out the assassination.

It is suspected that nine people were involved in the murder. One would have spied on Matthew and Patrick at their parents' home, using a pay-as-you-go mobile phone to alert the two gunmen waiting for the car as it slowed down at the corner. The gunmen would then have been collected by two other men and taken to an IRA safe house, where their clothes were burned and they showered off any residues from the shotgun blast.

For the Burns family, the murder was just the start of a heartbreaking series of events. Two months later Patrick, who initially seemed to be recovering well from his injuries, began to feel ill. He was diagnosed with cancer and died on December 9, 2003. Their younger brother Sean received a death threat from the IRA in a phone call, telling him if he did not leave Northern Ireland he would be killed. He was forced to leave his home and his job and move abroad.

The PSNI investigation into Matthew's murder ran into a wall of silence. No witnesses came forward and people arrested and questioned uniformly sat in silence. No one was charged.

The vilification of Matthew Burns continued unabated after his death, with a local newspaper running stories that he was a drug dealer with links to loyalists. The family are dismayed by the newspaper stories. Mrs Burns said her son was a hard-working, self-employed joiner who spent every spare moment he had training or taking part in kick-boxing competitions.

At the inquest last November, the PSNI officer in charge of the investigation dismissed the claims that Matthew was a drug dealer as a "smoke screen" put up by his killers. He said the murder was carried out by the IRA as a result of a personal vendetta.

The local IRA has continued its harassment of the Burns family. Every time they place a wreath or bouquet of flowers at the corner where Matthew was killed - on the anniversaries of his murder, on his birthday and at Christmas - they are stolen in the night. They also desecrated his grave, breaking a bronze statuette of a kick-boxer put there as a tribute by Matthew's kick-boxing club friends. Matthew's remains eventually had to be disinterred from the local graveyard and reburied at Bryansford cemetery, a safe distance from Castlewellan.

AT THE time Matthew Burns was murdered Sinn Fein was in government in the Northern Ireland Assembly.

His murder at the hands of members of the IRA who double as Sinn Fein election workers attracted almost no publicity. The local SDLP MP Eddie McGrady raised the issue in Westminster, but the case was ignored by the Northern media. The story of Matthew's murder was inconvenient for politicians and journalists unwilling to upset the "peace process" with such unhelpful revelations that, while its leaders were sharing power at Stormont, Sinn Fein's foot soldiers were murdering people and engaging in all forms of organised crime.

Matthew's mother and father, Patrick, were left alone with their two daughters to suffer in silence. The vilification of Matthew in a local paper turned them away from attempting to have his murder highlighted in the media. They still receive anonymous threats and the IRA figures who murdered Matthew still jeer at the family in the street.

The appalling thing is that almost everybody in Castlewellan knows who killed Matthew Burns and why. They will see the killers taking part in the Easter Sunday march to the local cemetery today. They know that local IRA people have all become mysteriously and ostentatiously wealthy. They can see their new houses and new cars.

They also know that the same people will be out canvassing for Sinn Fein's Catriona Ruane - the woman who ran the "Colombia Three" campaign - in the forthcoming Westminster election.

They know all this, but they also know what happensto people who breach theOmerta, the code of silence.
Jim Cusack

sleepwalker

thanks for posting this up, too many of these individual stories arent known by people and we tend to get caught up in looking at "the bigger picture" too often to move the peace process forward


its disturbing that people still actually support this mafia crime gang

dathi1

SF/IRA would like you to think that the McCartney killing was an exception,

did the IRA actually sanction the killing of mccartney?

Villain

I find it very hard to believe that the Provo's would hire a RIRA man to carry out a shooting and TBH I've given up believing what Cusack and his buddies in the INDO have to say, they write the same Anti-SF crap everyweek.

I find it terrible that the PSNI haven't been able to charge anyone with the murder of this young man.

Villain

dathi1 wrote:

did the IRA actually sanction the killing of mccartney?

Nope

BuffyBot

I find it terrible that the PSNI haven't been able to charge anyone with the murder of this young man.

I wonder why that is. Lack of witnesses perhaps?

the_syco

BuffyBot wrote:

I wonder why that is. Lack of witnesses perhaps?

Break the silence, you get shot. Has always been the way.

Villain

BuffyBot wrote:

I wonder why that is. Lack of witnesses perhaps?

Most likely BuffyBot, a very large amount of people in the North don't trust the PSNI, if we had a police service that was trusted by both sides then there wouldn't be any void for the IRA to fill. The way it is at the moment people go to the IRA when they have issues such as robberies & drug dealing etc.

The paton report needs to be implemented.

[ Daithí ]

I'm impressed how he managed to fight off a gang of seven IRA members.

Bloody ridiculous though. Why was he saught after in the first place? This is presuming that this Indo article isn't stuffed full of the usual anti-Republican b0llocks, of course. However, if it's true, the people who killed him should have their balls removed. Without anaesthetic of course. :rolleyes:

But I wouldn't believe much of it before reading it in another, unbiased paper. Anyone got a link?

pedantus

dathi1 wrote:

did the IRA actually sanction the killing of mccartney?

Yup.
Defaco that these individuals were member of the IRA by default means that the blame lies with the IRA.

If you are having difficulty wrapping your head around that I suggest you remove most of your brain (four fifths I would imagine). Then you will be stupid enough to understand.

Then when a member of some group or what ever does some thing bad you can happily just blame the whole group par se.

Plus you will be much happier in life by not having to think. A bib will help you cope with the drool.

sleepwalker wrote:

thanks for posting this up, too many of these individual stories arent known by people and we tend to get caught up in looking at "the bigger picture" too often to move the peace process forward


its disturbing that people still actually support this mafia crime gang

Well said that man. I think someone should make it their mission in life to keep us all informed of the various news articles that are printed daily on these various type of activites. Just incase we miss them and to make sure people not only see the big picture.. but all the little pictures.

pedantus

pedantus wrote:

Yup.
Defaco that these individuals were member of the IRA by default means that the blame lies with the IRA.

If you are having difficulty wrapping your head around that I suggest you remove most of your brain (four fifths I would imagine). Then you will be stupid enough to understand.

Then when a member of some group or what ever does some thing bad you can happily just blame the whole group par se.

Plus you will be much happier in life by not having to think. A bib will help you cope with the drool.

Indeed, maybe you should learn to be civil,how about a gap period from here of indeterminate duration for some lessons in civility,you can read the charter as a starting point logged out.

BuffyBot

Most likely BuffyBot, a very large amount of people in the North don't trust the PSNI, if we had a police service that was trusted by both sides then there wouldn't be any void for the IRA to fill. The way it is at the moment people go to the IRA when they have issues such as robberies & drug dealing etc.

And here comes the sticky part.

Chicken, egg etc - how can you trust a Police service you won't use. Until the public start to let go of the preconceptions, both the police and the public will sit there staring at each other, the police being rendered pretty useless because the public won't utilise them.

As for the IRA filling the void, I'm sure no matter how much the public in the North work with the police, the IRA will make a void for it to fill. To be honest, there seems to be quite a few people who enjoy that side of it too much for it to disappear.

Lemming

pedantus wrote:

Yup.
Defaco that these individuals were member of the IRA by default means that the blame lies with the IRA.

I don't think most people think that is quite the truth of the matter. Whilst SF/IRA did not sanction the murder, their name was used (quite succesfully) to intimidate people from coming forward and then supported by the closing of ranks around the perpetrators to protect them from the law.

It is that behaviour which has made SF/IRA culpable. Not the actual deed itself. Further made worse by the lack of action on SF/IRA's part until pressured to do so and the usual platitudes of rhetoric and sfa in the way of follow through. It hardly gives the impression of any sort of contrition or genuine empathy with the dead man's family.

Sand

I find it very hard to believe that the Provo's would hire a RIRA man to carry out a shooting

I dont find it very hard to believe *that*.

Do you believe that the RIRA was able to equip its campaign from IRA arms dumps for quite a while without any issues? I recall the IRA issued death threats only after a suitably long delay. Do you believe that the IRA has never assisted the PSNI *or* the Gardai with the Omagh bombing? Do you believe that the Gardai in Cork discovered the money laundering link because two seperate investigations, one into a SF/IRA figure and one into a RIRA one kept crossing over because they were such good mates?

Really, what makes you believe that SF/IRA and the RIRA are so bloody hostile? You refuse to believe anything that might paint SF/IRA in a bad light so Im curious what makes you believe that the IRA and RIRA would never, ever, ever co-operate or work together. Do you believe that practically 99% of the RIRA are ex - and maybe not so ex - IRA men? Do you believe they stopped chatting with their mates when the supposed split occured? Do you belive that Direct Action Against Drugs sprang up from nowhere? Do you believe that SF/IRA has never murdered anyone since the ceasefires began? Do you believe that SF/IRA has never used a flag of convenience to maintain the pretence of its ceasefire?

Do you actually believe that SF/IRA are on ceasefire in any real sense?

did the IRA actually sanction the killing of mccartney?

As much as they sanctioned the McCabe murders.

Theyve covered up for the killers, intimidated any potential witnessess and are now turning the screws on the McCartney family through death threats and attack articles by the likes of Danny "I know Gerry" Morrison. Any SF/IRA figures whove gone to the PSNI for interviews with their solicitors have simply picked a spot on the wall and ignored the investigating officers until the interview is over. SF/IRA have not volunteered a single piece of information or assistance to the investigation - there is not a single action they have taken that has not been forced out of them by these extremely brave women, and has been *purely* for PR purposes. SF/IRA holds the McCartneys in contempt, in the twisted world view of a SF/IRA fanboy the McCartneys are the villains, not the victims.

Did they sanction it? Does it make a difference at this stage?

Most likely BuffyBot, a very large amount of people in the North don't trust the PSNI, if we had a police service that was trusted by both sides then there wouldn't be any void for the IRA to fill.

Whats your proof? I know you have *extremely * high standards when it comes to anything negative about SF/IRA so Im sure youve a similar high standard when it comes to making statements to the effect youve made. Have you polled the entire Catholic population of Northern Ireland to prove to yourself that the vast majority of NI Catholics view SF/IRA gangs stalking the streets in balaclavas with spiked baseballs and handguns torturing 14 year old kids as more acceptable than, you know, an actual police force in uniforms that are accountable and can be held to standards by the public. Wheres the proof that makes you *believe* people arent simply scared of being attacked by these psychopaths, or even killed? Oh right, because SF/IRA would never do such a thing..... :rolleyes:

My Goodness Sand you really have it in for the Shinners, did one of them go off with your girlfriend or something?

I just have this issue with Brown Shirts and National Socialists threatening my democracy. I wouldnt expect a SF/IRA fanboy to understand. Theyre usually too busy ignoring reality.

Villain

Sand wrote:

I dont find it very hard to believe *that*.

Do you believe that the RIRA was able to equip its campaign from IRA arms dumps for quite a while without any issues? I recall the IRA issued death threats only after a suitably long delay. Do you believe that the IRA has never assisted the PSNI *or* the Gardai with the Omagh bombing? Do you believe that the Gardai in Cork discovered the money laundering link because two seperate investigations, one into a SF/IRA figure and one into a RIRA one kept crossing over because they were such good mates?

Really, what makes you believe that SF/IRA and the RIRA are so bloody hostile? You refuse to believe anything that might paint SF/IRA in a bad light so Im curious what makes you believe that the IRA and RIRA would never, ever, ever co-operate or work together. Do you believe that practically 99% of the RIRA are ex - and maybe not so ex - IRA men? Do you believe they stopped chatting with their mates when the supposed split occured? Do you belive that Direct Action Against Drugs sprang up from nowhere? Do you believe that SF/IRA has never murdered anyone since the ceasefires began? Do you believe that SF/IRA has never used a flag of convenience to maintain the pretence of its ceasefire?

Do you actually believe that SF/IRA are on ceasefire in any real sense?



As much as they sanctioned the McCabe murders.

Theyve covered up for the killers, intimidated any potential witnessess and are now turning the screws on the McCartney family through death threats and attack articles by the likes of Danny "I know Gerry" Morrison. Any SF/IRA figures whove gone to the PSNI for interviews with their solicitors have simply picked a spot on the wall and ignored the investigating officers until the interview is over. SF/IRA have not volunteered a single piece of information or assistance to the investigation - there is not a single action they have taken that has not been forced out of them by these extremely brave women, and has been *purely* for PR purposes. SF/IRA holds the McCartneys in contempt, in the twisted world view of a SF/IRA fanboy the McCartneys are the villains, not the victims.

Did they sanction it? Does it make a difference at this stage?

You believe what you want to believe Sand and I'll believe what I want, I'm not saying there isn't any crossover between the RIRA and the Provos but I find it very hard to believe they would be involved together in a murder.

The IRA are on a ceasefire, SF are not a terrorist group so I don't see why they would be a ceasefire

As for the McCartney issue, thats off topic and theres enough threads to discuss it in.

Sand wrote:

Whats your proof? I know you have *extremely * high standards when it comes to anything negative about SF/IRA so Im sure youve a similar high standard when it comes to making statements to the effect youve made. Have you polled the entire Catholic population of Northern Ireland to prove to yourself that the vast majority of NI Catholics view SF/IRA gangs stalking the streets in balaclavas with spiked baseballs and handguns torturing 14 year old kids as more acceptable than, you know, an actual police force in uniforms that are accountable and can be held to standards by the public. Wheres the proof that makes you *believe* people arent simply scared of being attacked by these psychopaths, or even killed? Oh right, because SF/IRA would never do such a thing..... :rolleyes:

I'm going on what I have read over the years and I think anyone that has any knowledge of the nationalist areas in the North would agree with me. Try to remember that the majority of Nationalists support Sinn Fein. I'm not saying I agree with people who choose to go to the IRA rather than the PSNI, I'm just stating the situation as I know it. The legacy of the RUC lives on, if you honestly believe people don't go to the PSNI soley because of fear you are very ignorant to the situation.

Sand wrote:

I just have this issue with Brown Shirts and National Socialists threatening my democracy. I wouldnt expect a SF/IRA fanboy to understand. Theyre usually too busy ignoring reality.

LOL Thats rich coming from you especially after your last post :rolleyes:

the_syco

[ Daith&#237 wrote: »

Why was he saught after in the first place?

Google it. You'd be surprised how many people died after getting into fights with the 'RA, or making a local 'RA commander look stupid.

A Dub in Glasgo

If this is true, those guys should be ashamed to call themselves Irish Republicans.

I say *if* because frankly I do not believe the Indo at all. I know some of their fanboys here believe everything that is written in that paper.

It is kinda funny to see some of the 'democrats' here go orgasmic when they state the peace process is dead.

Ok A word of warning
I've just sent all the off topic rubbish in this thread to the recycle bin.

Reason: A variant of filibustering was breaking out.

This has happened in two threads already that I've closed and If I see it again,I will take action.
If anybody wants to perform LoL type chats mid thread, take it elsewhere, somewhere suitable like irc or msn.
It won't be tolerated here.

Now back on topic, or if you don't want to discuss this topic or would rather peg veiled insults at one another Go elsewhere.

solo1

How about this:

The only reason for the existence of the pIRA in the first place is the mismanagement of the province by the English government, right? I think we can all agree on that. Now, maybe the English government is finally getting its act together, and maybe it isn't. We don't know. They seem to be taking a lot less crap from unionists, for one thing. Which is nice. But in any case, these pIRA guys are an army. They have their own army logic, which you will find in every army in the world, even those attached to the most democratic countries. There are even armies who have had their kidnapping and torture operations sanctioned by the brass. So don't hold the IRA up to standards that you do not hold for other armies.

As soon as the reason for their existence goes (the inequality in Norn Iron) then they will stop their military operations. Some of them may wander into criminal gangs, and some may wander into the police force. Whatever. It will take time to iron the whole thing out. If the pIRA is going to be taken down, it is not by waging war on them - it will have to come from the inside. And from what I've seen, the McCartney sisters could very well be the start of that sort of movement.

Villain

Earthman wrote:

Ok A word of warning
I've just sent all the off topic rubbish in this thread to the recycle bin.

Reason: A variant of filibustering was breaking out.

This has happened in two threads already that I've closed and If I see it again,I will take action.
If anybody wants to perform LoL type chats mid thread, take it elsewhere, somewhere suitable like irc or msn.
It won't be tolerated here.

Now back on topic, or if you don't want to discuss this topic or would rather peg veiled insults at one another Go elsewhere.

FYI Earthman, nearly all SF threads go off topic. I applaud your efforts though.

monument

If you don’t mind, I’m reposting the my comment in first half of my moved post, this time edited to a more serious tone. No matter what style it was in, I think it conveys a real and serious point…

dathi1 wrote:

did the IRA actually sanction the killing of mccartney?

irish1 wrote:

Nope

Did the IRA actually sanction the killing, or not? – Apparently beside the point.

Did the IRA actually give a green light to a cover up, or not? – Apparently beside the point.

Lemming

solo1 wrote:

How about this:

The only reason for the existence of the pIRA in the first place is the mismanagement of the province by the English government, right? I think we can all agree on that.

Very simplistic view of a very complex history. The mismanagement of the province was created by the loyalists who ran the province until a few embarassing acts forced London to take away power from Stormont and implement direct rule. Can it be argued that the British government made a bit of a balls up of a very difficult situation, undoubtedly. But their original intent was to stop the mismanagement being perpetrated by the Loyalists. By which stage it was too late since the IRA was already on the rise. Then it was a case of combating terrorism and the rest we all know as the history of "the troubles".

But in any case, these pIRA guys are an army. They have their own army logic, which you will find in every army in the world, even those attached to the most democratic countries. There are even armies who have had their kidnapping and torture operations sanctioned by the brass. So don't hold the IRA up to standards that you do not hold for other armies.

I'm sorry, but you have got to be f*cking kidding me here. The difference between the IRA and most armies in the world is a) those armies are the recognised military arms of sovreign states and b) most of those armies are signatories to the Geneva convention

The above implies accountability and standards as set down by internation treatise. Now the effective of that can be debated, but it is not within the scope of this discussion.

The IRA are a *Terrorist* organisation. Not an army as they would have you believe. A particularly big and well funded one, but nonetheless my point stands.

As soon as the reason for their existence goes (the inequality in Norn Iron) then they will stop their military operations. Some of them may wander into criminal gangs

The IRA have it too good to disband. They have something fundamental and they want more of it. Power. As long as they keep the nationalist communities in fear they have that power.

If the pIRA is going to be taken down, it is not by waging war on them - it will have to come from the inside. And from what I've seen, the McCartney sisters could very well be the start of that sort of movement.

I'd disagree with that statement of taking them down by not waging war on them. What kind of "war" is up for question. If the Irish government really wanted to break the IRA it could do so almost overnight. But it would require some very, very unpleasant decisions and sitting uncomfortably in the hotseat to answer for those decisions. Not forgetting that some of those decisions may well be highly unconstitutional. No politician on this island wants to go there right now.

As for the McCartney sisters, I would not say it's the start of fighting them from the inside as more a case of the community they've menaced for years starting to stand up and say "why?" and "no more".

Superman

The IRA ain't saints, but remember nobody gets shot / stabbed or beaten for no reason, and as for the McCartney sisters I definitely think they are media hungry and simply trying to flog a dead horse, about unlawful killing in NI.
I'm yet to actually see one of the crying about the guys death.
Thats just my view on it, you keep your head down and out of trouble and you won't need to worry about the IRA.

the_syco

Superman wrote:

but remember nobody gets shot / stabbed or beaten for no reason

Why he died will not come to light for @ least 2 years, I'd say, when all the crap has died down a wee bit.

Lemming

Superman wrote:

The IRA ain't saints, but remember nobody gets shot / stabbed or beaten for no reason

Except when the shinner/'ra "boyos" have been drinking and decide to take offense to yer mate and you try to smooth things over, eh? :rolleyes:

and as for the McCartney sisters I definitely think they are media hungry and simply trying to flog a dead horse, about unlawful killing in NI

Y'see, it's comments like these that don't do your camp any favours .... I believe the term goes about something regarding not digging any further. Have you considered that they are still "flogging" the issue since the police investigation into their brother's death has been obstructed at every turn by SF/IRA whilst they then have everyone silenced with threats when the cameras haven't been looking in their direction?

Yeah ..... right ..... good angle to come from .....
Excuse me whislt I *cough* have this *cough* really *cough* nasty *cough* coughing fit

I'm yet to actually see one of the crying about the guys death.

You do realise the concept of keeping dignity in public right? Were you at the funeral? Were you there when they were informed? No? Then you're speculating idly and - I would say - quite pathetically grasping at straws with which to try and sling mud. Only it's painfully obvious what you're doing.

Thats just my view on it, you keep your head down and out of trouble and you won't need to worry about the IRA.

Tell me ... why should anyone *have* to keep their head down because joe-bloggs in the local 'ra unit doesn't like you because of the colour of your shoes? Or because you decide to speak your mind instead of the "you can have any opinion you like so long as its ours" mantra that SF/IRA like to instill in their "protected" communities?

Capt'n Midnight

monument wrote:

Did the IRA actually sanction the killing, or not? – Apparently beside the point.

Did the IRA actually give a green light to a cover up, or not? – Apparently beside the point.

Did the IRA sanction the killing of the alleged killers or not?

Yes, they even offered to do it them selves.

Capt'n Midnight

Superman wrote:

Thats just my view on it, you keep your head down and out of trouble and you won't need to worry about the IRA.

Don't rock the boat eh ?

In case you hadn't noticed the whole point about a democracy / freedom of speach is that you shouldn't need to keep your head down because you are worried about a bunch of people who have offered to kill recently and have a record of killing.

Sand

You believe what you want to believe Sand and I'll believe what I want

Oh I know you do. What you want being the most important qualifier of that statement.

The IRA are on a ceasefire, SF are not a terrorist group so I don't see why they would be a ceasefire

Im glad you put the smiley in there at the end of that - saved me the bother.

I'm not saying I agree with people who choose to go to the IRA rather than the PSNI, I'm just stating the situation as I know it. The legacy of the RUC lives on, if you honestly believe people don't go to the PSNI soley because of fear you are very ignorant to the situation.

So then you do believe that Northern Catholics prefer their policing to be unacountable and to involve half a dozen men in balaclavas armed with medieval clubs torturing 14 year olds? Do you have that low an opinion of people from Northern Ireland?

If this is true, those guys should be ashamed to call themselves Irish Republicans.

Why? SF/IRA claim to be *the* Irish Republicans. What did the local SF/IRA unit do here that was incompatible with SF/IRA? Ganging up on a lone man outside his mothers house? Running off like cowards when faced with a real fight? Leaving a no warning bomb to wound a pregnant woman? Hiring someone else to do their dirty work for them to maintain the pretence of a ceasefire? Shooting dead a man fromt he community they claim to protect over nothing more than a minor dispute?

What particular issue seems not compatible with SF/IRA? I'm mystified.

It is kinda funny to see some of the 'democrats' here go orgasmic when they state the peace process is dead.

It is dead. Thats nothing to be joyful about, but its important that we dont fool ourselves that the SF/IRA Army Council wasnt merely testing how far it could take the armalite and ballot box strategy. I know its not a concern of yours, as your rights are protected by a legitimate liberal democratic government but NI, and perhaps even the Republic, came within a hairs breath of being delivered into the hands of an evil mafioso like Adams and Co only last December.

The IRA ain't saints, but remember nobody gets shot / stabbed or beaten for no reason,

They had it coming, right? **** happens.

Stabshauptmann

Im just curious, what was this dispute?

During a quick google I found that the Belfast telegraph, breakingnews.ie and UTV reported Burns as a small time drug dealer.

Ive no problem believing the RIRA and PIRA might on occasion work together, but why bother here? If the PIRA could make 2 attempts on his life why not a third?

Its all very strange and very sad, a yound man dead, a child fatherless, a promissing career ended so abruptly.

AmenToThat

Sand wrote:

Do SF/IRA fanboys seriously think SF/IRA has seriously engaged with a peace proccess when the events above, including hiring RIRA figures as flags of convenience to murder people, have occured and are occuring?

NI while still totally secterian in nature, which has nothing to do with Irish Republicanism btw) is a completely different place than when the 'troubles' were in full flow.
Now with this being the case it would then be fairly logical to conclude that SF and indeed the IRA have played a massive part in the peace process. Its weird that the only people who fail to see this is the 'anti SF Jihadis' that populate this board.

Villain

Sand wrote:

So then you do believe that Northern Catholics prefer their policing to be unacountable and to involve half a dozen men in balaclavas armed with medieval clubs torturing 14 year olds? Do you have that low an opinion of people from Northern Ireland?

Prefer????? where did I say that Sand???

Rock Climber

You didnt
he was asking you a question about whether you believe catholics in the North prefer balaclava'ed thugs to carry out so called justice than the current psni.
Bearing in mind that the McCartney murder was an obvious miscarriage of justice by them as were many many others.
Whether it was approved or not is immaterial because if there wasnt such a fuss these people no doubt would be off on IRA approved " justice" beatings after that brutal murder.

Theres no justice with the IRA at all so do you believe its what the majority of catholics prefer to the psni at the moment? province wide now , not just in the short strand?

And could you answer all the question, not just bits of it this time thanks.

Villain

He said

So then you do believe

, I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA, I simply stated they do.

BTW the only other question he asked me was

Do you have that low an opinion of people from Northern Ireland?

I think my above answer answered that question. The rest of the questions he asked were directed at other posters.

A Dub in Glasgo

Rock Climber wrote:

You didnt
he was asking you a question about whether you believe catholics in the North prefer balaclava'ed thugs to carry out so called justice than the current psni.

I would say some of them are

Bearing in mind that the McCartney murder was an obvious miscarriage of justice by them as were many many others.

What are you getting at here?

AFAIK, there was a drunken incident in a pub where someone said something insulting to a woman. A man went to the 2 people and was stabbed and injured by one of them. He went to hospital. The two people where then taken outside, beaten up and stabbed. One of them died, the other was injured.

Whether it was approved or not is immaterial because if there wasnt such a fuss these people no doubt would be off on IRA approved " justice" beatings after that brutal murder.

Hardly immaterial if a lot of people are now climing that the IRA had an approved operation against the 2 men.

Theres no justice with the IRA at all so do you believe its what the majority of catholics prefer to the psni at the moment? province wide now , not just in the short strand?

Some people in the areas affected see justice from the IRA as acceptable. This will not change until the PSNI are an acceptable force in those areas. This is obviously a statement of fact and no amount of jumping up and down here will change it. It is an abonimation of justice but that is where we are at.

Slutmonkey57b

I'm interested to see that we're expected to give the IRA credit for the peace process and the changes in NI over the past 10 years.

That version of history, while flattering to SF, is hardly true. The Peace Train movement, and the efforts of the SDLP evidently had nothing to do with it. The revulsion of the population to the Warrington bombings and Adams' failure to apologise or admit the obvious truth of the situation; eg that putting a bomb in a bin outside a shopping centre does nothing whatsoever to alleviate the problems of the north evidently had nothing to do with removing the vestige of an excuse that people used to justify the IRA's existance didn't do anything to advance the peace process either.

The vote north & south of the border that the terrorists had no business existing any more and that the people wanted to have a settlement negotiated by peaceful, democratic and consensual means obviously means nothing.

It's all thanks to the IRA bombing people for 30 years.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

He said , I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA, I simply stated they do.

BTW the only other question he asked me was I think my above answer answered that question. The rest of the questions he asked were directed at other posters.

He had a question mark after the statement-therefore it was a question.
When you say they do-some, all ,many? what percentage do you think prefer to go to the IRA rather than the police,do you think its a majority of catholics? I don't-but I do think that the guys in that pub would be mad if they did, as they most likely would get a hiding or be killed given past experiences and thats intimidation.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

AFAIK, there was a drunken incident in a pub where someone said something insulting to a woman. A man went to the 2 people and was stabbed and injured by one of them. He went to hospital. The two people where then taken outside, beaten up and stabbed. One of them died, the other was injured.
Hardly immaterial if a lot of people are now climing that the IRA had an approved operation against the 2 men.

Immaterial in the sense that miscarriages of justice are carried out willy nilly with no comeback and total impunuty by the IRA.If there had been no fuss by the mccartney sisters these murderers would probably be looking at another list from their commanders to carry out more injustices, thats what I meant by immaterial ie those like them will be at it again with impunity-no comeback.

Some people in the areas affected see justice from the IRA as acceptable. This will not change until the PSNI are an acceptable force in those areas. This is obviously a statement of fact and no amount of jumping up and down here will change it. It is an abonimation of justice but that is where we are at.

How do you know the level of acceptance of IRA thuggery? I'd contend a lot of it is just fear of doing anything about it and then theres the genuine hard liners who support it. surely counting the Sinn Féin votes up doesnt equate to support for this type of thing as they are opposed to punishment beatings arent they?

Mighty_Mouse

Chicken, egg etc - how can you trust a Police service you won't use. Until the public start to let go of the preconceptions, both the police and the public will sit there staring at each other, the police being rendered pretty useless because the public won't utilise them.

lord! How can having a fair, equal and just police force be described as a chicken and egg situation.

You accept that nationalist wont use the police force but you dont even accept there is a problem with the police, in the light of colusion, murder, assinations, orange order parade support etc etc you talk of "preconceptions".

Get real. This in not a case of preconceptions that maybe a marketing campaign can solve.

There is inherent sectarian problems with the corrent policine structures in the north.

Are you suggesting that catholics joining an inherent/structurally sectarian and corrupt police force solves the problems?

Chicken and egg, my backside.

I wouldnt mind but republicans were even prepared to do this for the sake of getting a stable government in the north.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

He had a question mark after the statement-therefore it was a question.
When you say they do-some, all ,many? what percentage do you think prefer to go to the IRA rather than the police,do you think its a majority of catholics? I don't-but I do think that the guys in that pub would be mad if they did, as they most likely would get a hiding or be killed given past experiences and thats intimidation.

For the love of god will you please read the posts before you reply, I said:

I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA, I simply stated they do

SO once again I'll say it again, read it slowly this time I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA

Mighty_Mouse

surely counting the Sinn Féin votes up doesnt equate to support for this type of thing as they are opposed to punishment beatings arent they?

Agreed. I'm not sure all the details of the above incident but at least you accept that isolated incidents of thuggery are not support by the general republican population.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

For the love of god will you please read the posts before you reply, I said:

SO once again I'll say it again, read it slowly this time I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA

yeah I saw that Irish1.
Sand and I only wanted you to confirm that, it took a few posts though.
And also,I was questioning your assertion that sand wasnt asking you a question-he was!!

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

yeah I saw that Irish1.
Sand and I only wanted you to confirm that, it took a few posts though.
And also,I was questioning your assertion that sand wasnt asking you a question-he was!!

Well he was leading the witness so

I do believe people go to the IRA rather than the PSNI, I don't think anyone with any knowledge of the northern situation would deny that, but I never stated people prefer to do it.

Sand

Prefer????? where did I say that Sand???

I'm not saying I agree with people who choose to go to the IRA rather than the PSNI, I'm just stating the situation as I know it. The legacy of the RUC lives on, if you honestly believe people don't go to the PSNI soley because of fear you are very ignorant to the situation.

Prefer

You claim people are not afraid to go to the PSNI due to SF/IRA attacks, so then they by default must be making their decisions on which provides them with the most value, rather than which threatens them most. I.E. which they prefer. So do you still believe that Catholics prefer gangs of balaclaved thugs beating 14 year old kids up over a uniformed, accountable police force that revently won accolades as having the highest human rights standards of all the police forces in the UK? Apparently some members of a rival "police" force disagreed, but they may have been celebrating the concept of irony.

SO once again I'll say it again, read it slowly this time I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA

So then you agree, that it is the fear of the SF/IRA thugs that prevents them from engaging with PSNI investigations?

Villain

It is not one single issue that stops people from going to the PSNI, IMO there are some who would not go because of fear, others do not trust the PSNI because of many reasons and they choose to go to the IRA or just say nothing. People make choices and since neither you or I live in the community we can't say whether they make the right or wrong choice.

If the paton report is implemented and a fair and just police service is introduced alot more people will go to the PSNI and over time the majority of people will learn to trust them.

Sand if you honestly believe it is only fear that prevents people from going to the PSNI, I think you need to go educate yourself on the situation a little more. This is not a black and white issue, it is very complicated.

BuffyBot

lord! How can having a fair, equal and just police force be described as a chicken and egg situation.

Of course, when will it be "fair, equal and just" enough for some people? For some people, it seems a case of "Never" - and that's the problem IMHO.

You accept that nationalist wont use the police force but you dont even accept there is a problem with the police, in the light of colusion, murder, assinations, orange order parade support etc etc you talk of "preconceptions".

Yes, I talk of preconceptions. It's tarring every PSNI officer with the same brush, and a brush covered in crap from the past at that. The "we're poor victims" cry is getting old and it's about time they made a move towards using the proper channels. It's not like the "bad old days" - there is a huge amount of scrutiny on the PSNI, plus the Police Ombudsman is in place.

Are you suggesting that catholics joining an inherent/structurally sectarian and corrupt police force solves the problems?

If there is so much corruption taking place, let them bring it out into the open. Until then, it's nothing but speculation and innuendo. As for Catholics joining, that's up to them - but unless they get involved, they can hardly have much ground to say thing are "structurally sectarian".

Chicken and egg, my backside.

I wouldnt mind but republicans were even prepared to do this for the sake of getting a stable government in the north.

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

It is not one single issue that stops people from going to the PSNI, IMO there are some who would not go because of fear, others do not trust the PSNI because of many reasons and they choose to go to the IRA or just say nothing. People make choices and since neither you or I live in the community we can't say whether they make the right or wrong choice.

If the paton report is implemented and a fair and just police service is introduced alot more people will go to the PSNI and over time the majority of people will learn to trust them.

Sand if you honestly believe it is only fear that prevents people from going to the PSNI, I think you need to go educate yourself on the situation a little more. This is not a black and white issue, it is very complicated.

Seeing as the Pro SF/IRA lobby seem assured that these communties willing to go the IRA, they might be willing to provide some statistical evidence, or any evidence at all to support claims like above. Or

Might Mouse wrote:

There is inherent sectarian problems with the corrent policine structures in the north.

This one.

Some reasonable evidence would be nice

Villain

mycroft wrote:

Seeing as the Pro SF/IRA lobby seem assured that these communties willing to go the IRA, they might be willing to provide some statistical evidence, or any evidence at all to support claims like above. Or



This one.

Some reasonable evidence would be nice

Well IMO some nationalists go to the IRA rather the PSNI I can't say why but that is the case as I believe it. If you believe otherwise fair enough, but I think your very removed from the reality of the situation up north.

edit
have a read here

/edit

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

Well IMO some nationalists go to the IRA rather the PSNI I can't say why but that is the case as I believe it. If you believe otherwise fair enough, but I think your very removed from the reality of the situation up north.

[Lionel hutz]
I have conjecture and speculation, those are kinds of proof
[/lionel hutz]

I'll have to book mark this link next time you try and call me, on ,er, anything, I'll just say "well it's my opinion and if you disagree you are very far removed from the reality of the situation" and link to the above quote.

It's your opinion. And in my opinion the level of sustained violence aganist the community, and republican organised violence when the police do make a presence in the area, creates an atmosphere were people aren't given a choice. If you're given the option of balaclava'd baseball bat welding thugs dishing out a kind of justice, or going to the police and being labelled a tout, or much worse, they'll be a weary resignation to go to thugs.

Villain

mycroft wrote:

[Lionel hutz]
I have conjecture and speculation, those are kinds of proof
[/lionel hutz]

I'll have to book mark this link next time you try and call me, on ,er, anything, I'll just say "well it's my opinion and if you disagree you are very far removed from the reality of the situation" and link to the above quote.

It's your opinion. And in my opinion the level of sustained violence aganist the community, and republican organised violence when the police do make a presence in the area, creates an atmosphere were people aren't given a choice. If you're given the option of balaclava'd baseball bat welding thugs dishing out a kind of justice, or going to the police and being labelled a tout, or much worse, they'll be a weary resignation to go to thugs.

Did you read the link I posted??

Rock Climber

I find it ironic that the slugger O' Toole site is being cited by you as evidence this time Irish1.

Does that mean now that we are to discount republicans slagging of it as reliable in the past in threads here and that you will be taking it as gospel in the future?

Interesting.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

I find it ironic that the slugger O' Toole site is being cited by you as evidence this time Irish1.

Does that mean now that we are to discount republicans slagging of it as reliable in the past in threads here and that you will be taking it as gospel in the future?

Interesting.

I was more pointing him towards the comments on the page, just trying to give him an insight into what people in the north believe, it's certianly not gospel but worth a read.