Abortion, the real Truth!! BEWARE

Shabadu

"...and the Content, Coherence, Grammer, Syntax and Spelling Award 2005 goes to...


...
...
.......................mrhankey88!"


*claps*

solo1

Countrys like England and America allow murder to be legal and therefor god will judge these counrtys and their leaders.

I will resist the temptation to critique your spelling, and ask you how you feel about the death penalty being applied to prisoners who have been very bad people.

Get off your cross, emancipation was achieved years ago and while there are women with opinions like yours, equality will never be achieved.

Firstly, I am not a woman. Secondly, if you can't see that women are not equal citizens, even today, by a long chalk, then you are blind. It is only because of people with opinions like mine that women have made any strides towards equality at all. Remember when they were campaigning for the vote, they were seen as trouble-makers, ideas above their station, it's people like the sufragettes that set back their cause, etc. I'm not comparing abortion with the right to vote, but the psychopathology is the same.

this has gone crazy!

Surely not! An abortion thread going crazy? No ...

elivsvonchiaing

*Page* wrote:

How Are Abortions Done?
Abortion is legal in this country(USA) until the day of birth! Many people do not know this. If you tell them, they refuse to believe it. Yet, the fact remains that a woman can legally abort her baby at any time during her pregnancy. The only thing that changes is the method and the cost.

Reading this... I have to say in normal circumstances abortion should be completely illegal after 8 weeks. This realistically gives only a four week window... but from what I've found elsewhere http://home.iprimus.com.au/rboon/StagesofBrainDevelopment.htm
think this should be so. Think mandatory pre-counselling of at least 4 hours over 48 hours should also be a legal pre-requisite to access too.

For cases of rape, incest etc. Think there needs to be a seperate sub-judiciary to deal with this on an absolute express basis - i.e. 2-3 weeks after the 8 weeks are up, to determine if an abortion is needed to preserve the life of the mother - needs to be driven by a team of psychologists who specialise in this...

Abortion of any foetus after 6 months is absolute blatant murder imho!

That's the ideal world - as ideal as it gets. Just isn't practical!

For now I think it is hypocritical to disallow abortions in this country (Ireland) up to 8 weeks - but the health service would need mega changes for this to become a reality!

Still also think if we had another referendum on this... (No!- please no!) the pro-life side would have a spuctacular victory... again! (not a typo btw!)

BuffyBot

"second hand goods" you ignorant person.

Ignorant? Me? Perhaps you need to re-read the post. Quotation marks are there for a reason...

CathyMoran

I am coming from the situation of knowing for the past 20 years that it would be far more difficult for me to have kids (at the very least I would have to plan them), I would also have a higher chance of being killed in childbirth. I do not currently have any kids. I will admit to being a practicing Christian.

I do not feel that abortion is right, but I would not be anti the morning after pill and while I hate the idea of it I can imagine situations where I might consider it, I am not saying that I would, but I have not walked in the shoes of someone in a crisis pregnancy, so I can not say. Having said that - abortion after 12 weeks is something that I could never imagine.

I do feel that in most circumstances the father should have the right to be involved in the decision process over abortion unless there is domestic violence/rape etc involved.

I have seen people who were adopted - this is a very noble idea but we are only recoving from the sagas of the launderies - there needs to be a new and fair system of adoption in place allowing for the needs of the child and the mother - some adopted friends/relatives suffered little trauma, but I have also seen some go through severe psychological trauma through their adoption and also tracing of their parents.

I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who chooses abortion - I am not sure if I could do the same - I do think that there needs to be better adoption procedures so that it becomes a real choice.

mycroft

mrhankey88 wrote:

Countrys like England and America allow murder to be legal and therefor god will judge these counrtys and their leaders.

[hicks]

never trust a person who starts a sentence with "what god meant to say was..."

[/hicks]

Ardent

neuro-praxis wrote:

It is this kind of muddy thinking that ruins these arguments. If you are injured so that you cannot breathe by yourself or feed yourself, does this mean you are no longer a human?

I understand where both sides of the argument are coming from. But there is something that I think needs clearing up:

The crux of many pro-choicers' argument is that a woman should have the right to choose.

Now, pro-lifers do not wish to remove choices from individuals for the sake of removing their choices. They want to remove the particular choice to have abortion because they believe that to terminate a foetus is to harm another human being. This argument taken to its logical conclusion would mean that if I were to prevent my father from hitting my mother there would be equal outrage from pro-choicers because I would be affecting my father's right to choose.

Wicknight: I hear you fully on your point that circumstances are irrelevant and the only thing that is important is whether or not the foetus is a "life". You happen to believe it's not, and I understand why. However, you must accept that your decision that life begins at 24 weeks in the womb contains a huge risk. What if life doesn't begin then? We cannot be sure.

The argument re: masturbation should be banned because of dead sperm yada yada yada is not allegorical at all. Sperm has no potential for human life on its own, either in the body or out. A fertilized egg will, however, unless disturbed (either by illness in nature or by a surgeon's vacuum), will continue on to full life and eventually become a grown human. So it's actually a moot point.

It does seem that calling a developing foetus simply a "bunch of cells" is something that is just being called in to justify abortion. My friend called me up a couple of months ago to announce that he and his wife are pregnant. At the time, she was only a few weeks gone. I didn't congratulate them on their bunch of cells, or talk about the foetus. It's a baby, a baby that will grow to its fullest potential unless grossly interrrupted. That bunch of cells is already loved and should it die before coming to term, all of us will grieve.

It comes down to this. Which is more important?

1) The right to life
2) The right to choose

A nice statistic for you: one in five conceptions in the UK ends in abortion. Do we want that here? So far the Irish are saying no.

Great post.

*Page*

"A nice statistic for you: one in five conceptions in the UK ends in abortion. Do we want that here? So far the Irish are saying no."

go check out how many woman travel over to england each year from ireland!!

Gurgle

Mia belle wrote:

"second hand goods" you ignorant person. I have 3 beautiful adopted daughters, happy, healthy well adjusted kids that I love with all my heart. I couldn't love them more if I had given birth to them, please find out more about adoption before you make stupid comments like this.

Hi, welcome to boards.
Please give us more info,
Was it difficult to arrange adoption ?
Did it take long ?
Are there many children in Ireland waiting to be adopted or more people waiting to adopt ?
Are you're children's birth parents known/involved?

You might be able to settle some issues raised in this discussion.

Mia belle

Hi there, thanks for the welcome, I adopted my 3 girls from Vietnam. It took 4 years to complete the 1st adoption and then 2 -3 years for the 2nd and 3rd. It was a very difficult process, but I am glad of that. We adopted from Vietnam because so few Irish babies are available for adoption, also, we had visited baby homes in Vietnam and saw so many children without parents. I have no info on my girls birth parents, all 3 girls were abandoned. I know this will be an issue for my family when the girls are older,but I hope they will be strong enough to deal with it. I would have loved contact with birth parents, but as my girls were abandoned, this wasn't possible.

Eoghan-psych

Yes, you gotta love that tired old argument - it goes right along with the "there was no premarital sex in Ireland before Gay Byrne".

Eoghan-psych

*Page* wrote:

"A nice statistic for you: one in five conceptions in the UK ends in abortion. Do we want that here? So far the Irish are saying no."

go check out how many woman travel over to england each year from ireland!!

Yes, you gotta love that tired old argument - it goes right along with "there was no premarital sex in Ireland before Gay Byrne".

Nevada

Britain cares more about the lives of foxes than children, bizarre country bizarre world

GuanYin

That sun report is the most interesting piece of fiction I've read in a while.

Its bull****.

mycroft

Nevada wrote:

Britain cares more about the lives of foxes than children, bizarre country bizarre world

Well theres an oversimplification of the world.

Do you like see the world in like fuzzy crayon view, with sqiggly lines, and the colours going between the lines?

Eoghan-psych

Nevada wrote:

Britain cares more about the lives of foxes than children, bizarre country bizarre world

Eh, no. Children in the UK have access to free healthcare from birth, free education, and an integrated benefit system.

In fact, children in the UK are treated slightly better than children in Ireland - the NHS works better than the Irish system [being one of the largest employers in Europe and with a budget the size of a small country, it's to be expected].

neuro-praxis

*Page* wrote:

"A nice statistic for you: one in five conceptions in the UK ends in abortion. Do we want that here? So far the Irish are saying no."

go check out how many woman travel over to england each year from ireland!!

I have checked it out. What's your point, *Page*? If I would vote against the legalisation of abortion in Ireland, why would I want to make it easier for Irish women to have them done?

Eoghan-psych

neuro-praxis wrote:

I have checked it out. What's your point, *Page*? If I would vote against the legalisation of abortion in Ireland, why would I want to make it easier for Irish women to have them done?

Because coat hangers aren't pretty.

isolde

Sleepy wrote:

They're not a hypocrite until they get pregnant and terminate it. [/pedant]

Would you like to expand on that?

solo1 wrote:

Firstly, I am not a woman. Secondly, if you can't see that women are not equal citizens, even today, by a long chalk, then you are blind. It is only because of people with opinions like mine that women have made any strides towards equality at all.

I agree.

~ isolde.

DublinWriter

psi wrote:

That sun report is the most interesting piece of fiction I've read in a while.Its bull****.

I'm no fan of the English, or any other, tabloid press, but there's an element of truth in that story.

Hearing that particular story reminded me of an even worse story told to me by Irish nurses in Irish pubs when I used to work in West London.

Apparently, nurses had taken home many foetuses aborted around the 22 - 24 week mark as they couldn't bare to see them incinerated because they were clearly showing signs of life and beginning to breathe.

I asked them how on earth they were able to do this, and they told me a lot of the time the Dr/Surgeon usually didn't hang around after the procedure and was usually moving between two parallel surgical theatres when on-duty, swiftly moving between both to save time.

They said that in a lot of cases, the foetuses died within 24 hours, but there were a number of cases around London where the foetus had lived and was brought up by the nurse that saved it.

I asked them about what would happen if they brought the foetus/baby home and it died.

I was told that there were a number of priests/reverends in mainly Catholic, but also some Protestant churches who knew about the practise and would facilitate the quiet burial of these foetuses/babies on ‘Holy Ground’ with a simple Christian ceremony with only themselves attending and not making any formal death record in either their own diocesan, or any civil, register.

If that story had been told to be my anyone else other than nurses themselves, I would have said it was complete bulls**t myself.

mycroft

DublinWriter wrote:

I'm no fan of the English, or any other, tabloid press, but there's an element of truth in that story.

Hearing that particular story reminded me of an even worse story told to me by Irish nurses in Irish pubs when I used to work in West London.

Apparently, nurses had taken home many foetuses aborted around the 22 - 24 week mark as they couldn't bare to see them incinerated because they were clearly showing signs of life and beginning to breathe.

I asked them how on earth they were able to do this, and they told me a lot of the time the Dr/Surgeon usually didn't hang around after the procedure and was usually moving between two parallel surgical theatres when on-duty, swiftly moving between both to save time.

They said that in a lot of cases, the foetuses died within 24 hours, but there were a number of cases around London where the foetus had lived and was brought up by the nurse that saved it.

I asked them about what would happen if they brought the foetus/baby home and it died.

I was told that there were a number of priests/reverends in mainly Catholic, but also some Protestant churches who knew about the practise and would facilitate the quiet burial of these foetuses/babies on ‘Holy Ground’ with a simple Christian ceremony with only themselves attending and not making any formal death record in either their own diocesan, or any civil, register.

If that story had been told to be my anyone else other than nurses themselves, I would have said it was complete bulls**t myself.

Don't suppose you have any medical facts to support that claim?

For starts if it was medically plausible the pro lifers would wet themselves with glee.

The act of the abortion kills the foetus. I think you're making this up, or were lied to by a bunch of pissed nurses winding you up

DublinWriter

mycroft wrote:

Don't suppose you have any medical facts to support that claim?

For starts if it was medically plausible the pro lifers would wet themselves with glee.

The act of the abortion kills the foetus. I think you're making this up, or were lied to by a bunch of pissed nurses winding you up

I personally know the RNs who told me this story. And yes, they were pissed up, otherwise I don't think they would have told me the story in the first place.

Many children are delivered prematurely between 22-24 weeks and with the aid of incubation many go on to live happy and normal lives. Medical Fact enough for you?

You say the act of abortion kills the foetus. How exactly? Do you have any medical facts to support that claim?

mycroft

DublinWriter wrote:

I personally know the RNs who told me this story. And yes, they were pissed up, otherwise I don't think they would have told me the story in the first place.

Many children are delivered prematurely between 22-24 weeks and with the aid of incubation many go on to live happy and normal lives. Medical Fact enough for you?

You say the act of abortion kills the foetus. How exactly? Do you have any medical facts to support that claim?

From earlier in the thread

Prostaglandin Abortion

Prostaglandin is a hormone that induces labor. The baby usually dies from the trauma of the delivery. However, if the baby is old enough, it will be born alive. This is called a “complication.” To prevent this, some abortionists use ultrasound to guide them as they inject a “feticide” (a drug that kills the fetus) into the unborn baby’s heart. They then administer prostaglandin and a dead baby is delivered. This type of abortion is used in mid and late term pregnancies.

I can't believe that a feticide isn't common pratice now. And I'm moderately certain that the trauma of such a birth would mean it would be unlikely that such a baby could survive for any length of time otherwise.

Babies born early need extrordinary measures to survive the first few minutes, and the suggest than these babies then somehow manage to survive the trauma, the nurse, has a system that'll protect and nuture the foetus, while smuggling it out of the clinic, into the cold night air, home, and for the baby to survive even for a scant few hours.

I submit that while the story doesn't wander out of the realms of possibility, the chances of it happening are so remote to be removed from reality.

Also you're the one making the incredible tail, it's up to you to provide fact to prove the assertion, not I to refute it.

Sleepy

isolde wrote:

Would you like to expand on that?



I agree.

~ isolde.

A person is only a hypocrite if they preach one thing and do the exact opposite. Ergo, the people you're talking about would only be hypocrites if they were to have an abortion.

GuanYin

DublinWriter wrote:

If that story had been told to be my anyone else other than nurses themselves, I would have said it was complete bulls**t myself.

Its still complete bull****.

I've worked in two maternity hospitals and there are practices in place to ensure such things don't happen.

Besides which, taking neonate at 24 weeks home? Not a chance.

shoegirl

What it ultimately boils down to is:

We know when life begins but when does personhood begin?
Should an older (i.e. adult) life take precendence over a younger one?
When the existence of the new life is as a result of trauma or error does this change the rights of the new life?

Everbody is talking about the rather minute reduction of the law from 24 to 20 weeks but nobody ever seems to discuss the far more liberal law where the pre-born being can be aborted if known to be suffering from brain damage or severe disability right up to the moment of birth. I find this far more distasteful as it does inpinge on the rights of dsiabled people and there is a slight suggestion of eugenics in this permission in the law.

Blinda

ONLY READ THE FIRST MESSAGE......and dont need to continue. I too am a trained nurse with extensive experience in gynaeocology in a large regional hospital.....INITIALLY.

Here is a few examples of my experience.
a) Allocated theatre placement 6/12 into my training = GREEN:
Weekly opps listed on T/ BOARD and me down to assist at hysterotomy 3 days time. Technition was a Dublin chap who kept telling me he was disgusted that I (good catholic girl) would agree to this one.
I kept ignoring him (he was not medical /nursing staff / ?? lay perspective / emotive/ training???) - truth - my thoughts at the time. However just at the 11th hour we both realised that I had not read the board correctly. It was not hysterectomy but hysterotomy...late abortion at 5 months.
Because of the time factor - 1 had to make an instant decision - I decided to refuse - ALL HELL broke loose and I was banished to the worst :mad: theatre placement for trainees - orthopaedics.

b) Next placement Gynae: Terrified STUDENT as left in charge of 30 patients. One young woman patient w/ 'treatened miscarriage' at 11 weeks gestation rang red bell for attention. Found (11 week fetus) BABY BOY, pink & fully formed, size of 2 lb bag of sugar. He was moving his right arm in a waving motion, which ceased a few secondes when the afterbirth was expelled.

c) Know that a few (abortion) babies (over the years) which were discarded in hosp basement (very warm due to huge capacity C heating boilers) babies found alive and a couple heard crying.

Prostaglanden terminations were carried out (conveyor belt) routinely during the 70-80s'. Mothers hooked to drip which poisoned fetus and results of poisoning evident when fetus was expelled after a few hours. :eek:

I could go on................

Gurgle

Blinda wrote:

Here is a few examples of my experience.
a) Allocated theatre placement 6/12 into my training = GREEN:
Weekly opps listed on T/ BOARD and me down to assist at hysterotomy 3 days time. Technition was a Dublin chap who kept telling me he was disgusted that I (good catholic girl) would agree to this one.
I kept ignoring him (he was not medical /nursing staff / ?? lay perspective / emotive/ training???) - truth - my thoughts at the time. However just at the 11th hour we both realised that I had not read the board correctly. It was not hysterectomy but hysterotomy...late abortion at 5 months.
Because of the time factor - 1 had to make an instant decision - I decided to refuse - ALL HELL broke loose and I was banished to the worst :mad: theatre placement for trainees - orthopaedics.

b) Next placement Gynae: Terrified STUDENT as left in charge of 30 patients. One young woman patient w/ 'treatened miscarriage' at 11 weeks gestation rang red bell for attention. Found (11 week fetus) BABY BOY, pink & fully formed, size of 2 lb bag of sugar. He was moving his right arm in a waving motion, which ceased a few secondes when the afterbirth was expelled.

c) Know that a few (abortion) babies (over the years) which were discarded in hosp basement (very warm due to huge capacity C heating boilers) babies found alive and a couple heard crying.

Prostaglanden terminations were carried out (conveyor belt) routinely during the 70-80s'. Mothers hooked to drip which poisoned fetus and results of poisoning evident when fetus was expelled after a few hours. :eek:

I could go on................

I was happier ten minutes ago when I was pretty sure the 'living babies left to die' part wasn't true.

By the way...

BuffyBot

I was happier ten minutes ago when I was pretty sure the 'living babies left to die' part wasn't true.

Well I'm doctor* and I once cut someones head off by accident when I was operating on an ingrown toenail.

* May not be an actual doctor. Post may be tainted by hyperbole and a stretched sense of reality. Remember, consulting the internet for facts is not always the best course of action. Facts, when viewed via the internet may closer to truth than in actual reality. A visit to a specialist is recommended

Gurgle

BuffyBot wrote:

Facts, when viewed via the internet may closer to truth than in actual reality.

Which is why I went googling for info on first trimester foetuses (foeti?) to see if they could move their limbs.

It was definitely the most convincing post on this thread that this may have really happened. I was putting the first post and the one about nurses keeping babies down to over-zealus pro-lifers (ie ones who resort to making stuff up).

Its not really relevant to the abortion discussion. If a foetus is born alive, then to kill it or let it die is unarguably murder, as its not a foetus anymore, its a baby.