TMAer in the early UFC

columok

Cast your mind back to when there really were no rules in the UFC and there was no referee. When karate fought kungfu fought pentcak silat fought ninjitsu!

Who does everybody think is the most memorable TMAer from the early UFC?

Personally I have to go for either Ranger Stott or Scott "Ninja" Morris

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Cast your mind back to when there really were no rules in the UFC and there was no referee. When karate fought kungfu fought pentcak silat fought ninjitsu!

Who does everybody think is the most memorable TMAer from the early UFC?

Personally I have to go for either Ranger Stott or Scott "Ninja" Morris

If I'm right the ninja got his nose pasted to his face??

Do you remember the guy that wore a white pants and vest with the mullet? I can't remember his name? But he was a nutter! I'm pretty sure he done a TMA maybe a bit of TKD or something?

If anyone has the video they can look him up? He could have been in the 2nd or 3rd UFC also? I saw them all together at the time!

Millionaire

I saw the very first one back in 94??? I think??? on pay view in canada. There was like a Sumo Wrestler, A dutch Muay Thai guy (he got the the final, gracie beat him), A gracie of course, a boxer with one glove on, a few bit out of shape guys one was kenpo,the toehr was somthing else, though in essence they were training kickboxing.

Highlights I remember, Sumo slipping and Thai guy shin kicking him full blast in teeth, teeth flying everywhere..OUCH! Gracie choking everyone out..never saw that before then!

dlofnep

Without a doubt, the myth that is Fred Ettish.

Celticfire

http://www.ettishfetalfighting.8m.com/ettish2.htm

What a legend

cletus

The dude in UFC 2 or 3, he had a mullet, and he threw some sort of forward flip kick. I think Pat Smith ended up re-arranging this guys face with elbows from the guard

dlofnep

Harold Howard? But he never fought Pat Smith. Pat Smith beat down Scott Morris, but it was Harold who did that flip kick.

cletus

dlofnep wrote:

Harold Howard?

thats the dude. my bad on the pat Smith fight, its been a while since i've lookeed at those vids. said he had created his own style which was unbeatable, If I recall

dlofnep

Long time ago.. Not expecting anyone to have the memory of an elephant. I'm just an MMA geek

pma-ire

dlofnep wrote:

Harold Howard? But he never fought Pat Smith. Pat Smith beat down Scott Morris, but it was Harold who did that flip kick.

Ah ya! Mullet Man!

Roper

http://www.ettishfetalfighting.8m.com/ettish2.htm

Damn that's funny. I particularly like the Ranger Stott section about his fight with Kerr!!!

columok

I was watching the untelevised fights from UFC 2 last night.

Hilarious. In all the prefight interviews the guys have beautiful kata and amazingly slick moves on cooperative opponents. They get in the cage and they look like BAAAAAD MMA fighters. Brilliant really. And because there were no actual rules and no referee interference it meant all those BS arguments about it being just a sport went out the window!

Favourite fight was Orlando Weit Vs. Robert Lucarelli for pure harshness. Running across the ring and soccer kicking the guy in the head followed by repeated downward elbows to the back of the neck. :eek:

dlofnep

Haha, I remember that.. Weit pummels him and just when everyone thinks the fight is over, Weit goes back over and throwing kicks at his face and nailing him with elbows.

What happens to Weit in his next fight though is extreme

columok

UFC 2 "As Harsh as it gets"

breadmonkey

There's one Kenpo guy that comes to mind. I have a few fights of his on a cd that vasch_ro gave me. In one match, he punches a guy in the balls about 10 or 12 times, NASTY! He also beats the crap out of this enormous black dude who doesn't look like he knows how to fight. BUt he's BIG!

dlofnep

Ah good old Keith "Ball Buster" Hackney.

cletus

I know its a little off topic, but I saw "Bas Rutten's Cage Fighting", and one bout was between a large black guy who cross trained in wrestling and kickboxing, and a little skinny white guy who created his own style, called "Ju-Box-Fu" ( he said it contained the best elements of ju-jitsu, kickboxing, and kung fu). Anyway, fight starts, the skinny white dude runs accross the ring, and tries to pull guard on his opponent, who stands for a moment before knocking him out cold.

Roper

Ah good old Keith "Ball Buster" Hackney.

I have been sitting in work trying to remember his name all morning! Classic moments include his classy Frank Dux-alike stances and movement when he's away from his opponent, and then his bitch slappin, ball punchin techniqueless milling when he gets near him! ( or where they bronchial strikes? Oops, wrong thread )
I have UFC highlights from one to about 20, it's great stuff, but there is a problem with it. It only shows the good matches! I want to see the 2 second beatdowns against the Karate *chop* guys who turn into handbag wavers!
Is there a highlight vid for sucky fighters?

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

( or where they bronchial strikes? Oops, wrong thread )

I don't remember a thread on the function of the lungs??

But I do remember one on a "bracchial" nerve strike?

columok

Classic moments include his classy Frank Dux-alike stances and movement when he's away from his opponent, and then his bitch slappin, ball punchin techniqueless milling when he gets near him!

Yeah saw a pencak silat master fighting Remco Pardoel.The guy had lovely fluid movements and beautiful stances until he actually started fighting and by fighting I mean boxing badly (slapping really) and having a large dutch man lie on top of him hitting him in the face!

The crap fights are just that. Crap. Nothing happens just really bad wrestling and really bad ground. The guys (mainly karate and kungfu people) go to ground and just lie there! Its great to see them use the kungfu animal style of the "roadkill cat"

cmb.

someclassic moments in early ufcs - esp the 'invented in my garage' disciplins - e.g joe-san-do

i also love mark kerr v greg scott (who had his own 'style' called RIP) - scott in his gammy legged hunch back stance getting ko'd by a knee in 20 secs - funnier than fr ted - ufc 15

EPO_MAN

I was actually going to say keith hackney before you guys mentioned it. He gave Royce Gracie a few good punchs and with some cross training would have been a very decent fighter.
It's easy to laugh about those fighter but some of them were super fit and could fight - just maybe not adapted for one-on-one is the cage.

Aren't we all about learning from each other and not ridiculing each other failings....cos then we get nowhere.

I thought KIMO was top notch when we was a TKD figher. Also it was a shame I never saw Pat smith beyond UFC4 (i think). Now that was one good figher.

Also Dav Severn - graco roman - as trad as they come did pretty well.
Who can forget the double suplexing that texas Muay Thai guy.
sweet!!

Evilution

Millionaire wrote:

A dutch Muay Thai guy (he got the the final, gracie beat him)

That was Pat Smith, tall bast@rd wasn't he? Ken Shamrock schooled him too.

Millionaire wrote:

Highlights I remember, Sumo slipping and Thai guy shin kicking him full blast in teeth, teeth flying everywhere..OUCH!

I remember that one alright. He actually kicked the guys two front teeth out into the crowd. If you go to Sherdog.com and go to the highlight reel clips and download the best knockouts of the UFC you'll see him on it and that nutter in the wifebeater too!

dlofnep

Evilution wrote:

That was Pat Smith, tall bast@rd wasn't he? Ken Shamrock schooled him too.


I remember that one alright. He actually kicked the guys two front teeth out into the crowd. If you go to Sherdog.com and go to the highlight reel clips and download the best knockouts of the UFC you'll see him on it and that nutter in the wifebeater too!

No, it wasn't Pat Smith. It was Gerard Gordeau. He fought at Vale Tudo Japan 95 too and go tapped out by a 150lbs Yuki Nakai.

Roper

You're right, you are an MMA geek!!

Aren't we all about learning from each other and not ridiculing each other failings....cos then we get nowhere.

By the by EPO MAN. I don't think anyone here doesn't admire anyone for getting into the cage, in fact this thread probably proves your point. There are so many casualties of bad training methods from the early UFC's, and now you look at the highly trained, adaptive fighters there are today. I think someone has learned!

columok

Also it was a shame I never saw Pat smith beyond UFC4 (i think). Now that was one good figher.

Pat Smith was a thug. I think what he did to Scott Morris was inexcusable and his behaviour off the matt was poor. He admittedly was one of the first american fighters to cop onto the whole need for grappling AND striking.

Also Dav Severn - graco roman - as trad as they come did pretty well.

Greco Roman isnt generally considered a traditional martial art as it is an Olympic combat sport!!! I could be wrong but I think Dan Severn was fighting for years before UFC. Maybe at "toughguy" shows or fighting in Japan. Again Im open to corrections!

Gordeau was a bit of a scummer aswell. He was savate as far as I remember and if anyone saw him thumbing yuki nakai in the eyes in Japan Vale Tudo 95 theyll think the same.

I respect anyone who has the balls to step into a no rules cage with no previous cagefighting experience. But i really respect people who have the guts to admit that their training is crap and that learn from the beating they take. I wonder how many of those schooled traditional martial arts "masters" changed and learnt from their mistakes. Maybe John has some info????

Kevin_rc_ie

I wonder how many of those schooled traditional martial arts "masters" changed and learnt from their mistakes. Maybe John has some info????

i think most of them became florists.

EPO_MAN

columok wrote:

Pat Smith was a thug. I think what he did to Scott Morris was inexcusable and his behaviour off the matt was poor. He admittedly was one of the first american fighters to cop onto the whole need for grappling AND striking.

Greco Roman isnt generally considered a traditional martial art as it is an Olympic combat sport!!! I could be wrong but I think Dan Severn was fighting for years before UFC. Maybe at "toughguy" shows or fighting in Japan. Again Im open to corrections!

true pat smith wasn't a nice guy. but Severn was competing at wrestling not MMA before he went into the octogon. (I believe!)
In gact i remember reeading that he was juts an ordinary wrestling till 36 and somebody encouraged him to uup his game and good things happened. Must admit i only read that in an article so dunno how true that is.

cmb.

EPO_MAN wrote:

true pat smith wasn't a nice guy. but Severn was competing at wrestling not MMA before he went into the octogon. (I believe!)
In gact i remember reeading that he was juts an ordinary wrestling till 36 and somebody encouraged him to uup his game and good things happened. Must admit i only read that in an article so dunno how true that is.

pretty much - he still competed on the international wrestling scene and was working part time as a professional wrestler - i seem to recall that he came to the ring in his early ufc appearances with a pro-wrestling title. his training for theufc - while short was with other pro wrestlers - he basically did what he did in his early mma years with no experience outside of greco-roman and was past his prime - amazing stuff - still putting on some good performances in the likes of kotc

dlofnep

Dan never fought before UFC - As mentioned, he only competed in wrestling. This is evident by his inability to punch Royce in their fight.

Pat Smith fought a few more MMA fights outside UFC. Interesting story about Smith. He was arguing with Tank Abbott after UFC 6 and Paul Herrera while trying to get in between them got punched by Smith. Later on that day after getting wasted Paul Herrera bumped into Pat Smith's sister.

Apparently he was annoying her or something and she called on Pat Smith and his "crew". Herrera bailed out. Eddie Ruiz (Herrera's friend) was getting onto to Herrera for not doing anything to Smith when he had the chance so Herrera stormed off and was getting into a lift when Smith walked out.

Herrera knocked him down with one punch and Tank & Herrera beat Pat Smith down.. This is why Smith never fought in the UFC after UFC 6. Maurice Smith had to drag them off Pat Smith.

Colm_OReilly

It's easy to laugh about those fighter but some of them were super fit and could fight - just maybe not adapted for one-on-one is the cage.

So they couldn't fight against one other person, but they could fight? How so?

Colm

cmb.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

So they couldn't fight against one other person, but they could fight? How so?

Colm

a lot of early mma was full of thugs - no other way to describe them - tank - a perfect example - it takes a real man to go around looking for bar fights and trying to beat up women

anyone else read freemans "autobiography"? - 250 pages of - im a man cause i beat up drunk people when i was a door man and ran with the krays gang etc etc -

dlofnep

Nah aint read that... I'm halfway through no holds barred by Clyde Gentry.. Good read.

vasch_ro

I would have thought that Royce Gracie was an obvious post in this thread, coming from a jiu jitsu backround , fighting with the full gi , at the time he relied purely on BJJ to win the UFC 3 times ( UFC 1,2,and 4 having been unable to continue in UFC 3 after his match with Kimo )

columok

Vasch,

A) Royce comes from a BJJ background but his family have a long tradition of fighting real vale tudo. He would have been training for Vale Tudo before UFC. If the Gracies claim he wasnt it has to be BS. They wouldnt let their name get sullied by someone unprepared!

BJJ isnt really a traditional martial art in the conventional sense but I take your point!

Clive

Besides, lets not forget Royce trains with Momo in kickboxing.

"People say I can't punshh, but I punshh you!"

columok

Dramatic reconstruction* of my interview with UFC legend Royce Gracie

Me: So Royce tell me about who youre planning on fighting next.

Royce: People keep forgetting that I fought 4 people in one night in UFC 2. People keep forgetting that. I fought 4 people in one night at UFC 2. Who else has done that. Im a legend. People keep forgetting that I won 3 UFCs.

Me: Ok Royce will you be sticking to your tried and tested submission finishes in your next fight?

Royce: People keep forgetting that me and MuMu have been training kickboxing together for 15 years. People say I cant punch, I punch you. Me and MuMu have been training kickboxing for 15 years. People keep forgetting that!

Me: Thank you Royce.

* Warning may not have happened

dent

columok wrote:

The guys (mainly karate and kungfu people) go to ground and just lie there! Its great to see them use the kungfu animal style of the "roadkill cat"

Best comment I have heard in a long time, gave me quite a chuckle

soma

Aww man - I have to get these early UFC vids! My mate who does BJJ in Oz has been raving about them (and pride) & these descriptions are both great & hilarious

columok wrote:

Yeah saw a pencak silat master fighting Remco Pardoel.The guy had lovely fluid movements and beautiful stances until he actually started fighting and by fighting I mean boxing badly (slapping really) and having a large dutch man lie on top of him hitting him in the face!

Yeah I remember reading about this on a forum somewhere - but the description I read was even less flattering than yours! I was under the impression he simply just got arm-barred right at the beginning!! One thing though.. and this is me being very much pendantic (as well as interested!) but are you sure he was a pencak silat 'master'..? they're known as 'pendekars' are pretty bloody rare (In europe I can think of one in england.. three in holland.. um.. possibly one in france).

Finally - been watching loads of UFC on Bravo (Man I love that crazy bastard robbie - what is he? 21!?) & I can easily see myself doing some BJJ in the future. If you could roll back the clock to the rules (i.e. none!) in the early UFCs - do you think guys like Tito would do as well? any of the other fighters who think would flourish or suffer in that scenario..? I read a recent interview with R Gracie (one of the last 2 month's MA Illustrated) where he said he reckon he'd struggle in the current UFC cos he'd be limited by the rules.

dlofnep

R Gracie? Rickson, Royce, Rorion, Royler, Renzo, Relek, Ralph? Which..

Tito Ortiz. He has a big head. Good fighter.. Too cocky. Won't ever win the lhw belt while Randy Couture is around. He would of smashed up earlier competition when there were "no rules". There were no skilled fighters back then.. the leader of the pack was a 180lb brazilian jiu-jitsu wizard.

columok

Yeah I remember reading about this on a forum somewhere - but the description I read was even less flattering than yours! I was under the impression he simply just got arm-barred right at the beginning!! One thing though.. and this is me being very much pendantic (as well as interested!) but are you sure he was a pencak silat 'master'..? they're known as 'pendekars' are pretty bloody rare (In europe I can think of one in england.. three in holland.. um.. possibly one in france).

His name was Alberta Cerra Leon. He was from an Island near Indonesia as far as I remember. (Obviously a spanish colony). He fought Remco Pardoel and got sat on by a fairly average grappler. He didnt get armbarred as far as i remember. think it was some kind of forearm choke.

All of the TMAers had claims to being fairly decent at their martial arts. Of course there arts seeing them losing claimed that they were poor representatives of their arts. :rolleyes:

Man I love that crazy bastard robbie - what is he? 21!?)

Robbie Lawler! Unhinged!

If you could roll back the clock to the rules (i.e. none!) in the early UFCs - do you think guys like Tito would do as well? any of the other fighters who think would flourish or suffer in that scenario..?

Looking at UFC 1 and 2 (and I know this is an elaborate claim) but Im pretty sure Id beat 90% (excluding Royce, Shamrock and maybe some wrestlers) of the guys in there. Im distinctly average by the way and I weigh 90kg so I have neither attributes nor mega skillz on my side. Tito would have hammered everyone- Severn, Shamrock and Royce included. He would have walked through all the Kungfu, Karate, Ninjitsu and Silat people who were in there.

Fighters have developed tenfold since UFC 1. Put a guy with 2 years of MMA training (who is an average competitor) into a De Lorean travelling at 88 mph and theyd walk through 90% of UFC1 and UFC2 competition. Back then it was all ground and no one had any!

EPO_MAN

columok wrote:

Looking at UFC 1 and 2 (and I know this is an elaborate claim) but Im pretty sure Id beat 90% (excluding Royce, Shamrock and maybe some wrestlers) of the guys in there. Im distinctly average by the way and I weigh 90kg so I have neither attributes nor mega skillz on my side. Tito would have hammered everyone- Severn, Shamrock and Royce included. He would have walked through all the Kungfu, Karate, Ninjitsu and Silat people who were in there.

I doubt Tito would have beaten those guys, well maybe but hammered...not a chance. tito remeber was beaten by Frank shamrock when Shamrock retired as reigning middleweight UFC champ. I always thought ken was a better fighter than Frank.
i know Tito did beat Ken but Tito was top of his game and Ken Shamrock was 38....
I guess it's like saying who was better Pele or Maradone? Wouldn't know really.

May I quote Isaac Newton when he said "If I've seen further than you it's cos I'm standing on the shoulders of giants".
The same applies here Tito and Chuck liddell are only as good as they are cos of teh original TMA's.

Kevin_rc_ie

but Im pretty sure Id beat 90% (excluding Royce, Shamrock and maybe some wrestlers) of the guys in there. Im distinctly average by the way and I weigh 90kg

holy sh1t, i've read some rubbish on these boards but that is the most contraversial thing i've seen easily. I've never seen UFC 1, but were they so bad someone with a few years playing BJJ in Ireland could give them a good go and probably beat them. Any confirmation on that by ppl who, unlike me, know what they're talking about?

dlofnep

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

holy sh1t, i've read some rubbish on these boards but that is the most contraversial thing i've seen easily. I've never seen UFC 1, but were they so bad someone with a few years playing BJJ in Ireland could give them a good go and probably beat them. Any confirmation on that by ppl who, unlike me, know what they're talking about?

Why attempt to bring up an argument when you haven't seen UFC 1? Royce Gracie was a skinny stick man with good jiu-jitsu - He dismantled everyone he fought within the first minute. That is the power of BJJ. I'm pretty sure alot of BJJ players even in Ireland or MMA practioners of today would of winning UFC 1.

Why? The fighters had no ground skills whatsoever and no takedown defence. If they can't stop you from taking them down, they are like a fish out of the sea on the ground where they "will be" submitted.

Trust me, that wasn't a bold statement by Colum whatsoever.

Kevin_rc_ie

ok i take ur point on board.

columok

In UFC 1 and 2 certainly 90 % of the competitors had no discernible skills for MMA. They were TMAers who while practising "standup" martial arts like Karate and KungFu couldnt strike to save their lives. The takedowns or takedown defence was atrocious. In UFC 1 only Royce and Ken Shamrock had ground skills (or even clinch AFAIK). If I fought Ken Shamrock he would have handed me my ass- no doubt. Royce would have tapped me similarly. Everyone else, while deserving kudos for stepping into the cage couldnt really fight to save their lives and it showed.

Kev,

Get a copy of UFC 1 and UFC 2 and itll open your eyes!

Kevin_rc_ie

If you say so,

I didn't know you had so much experience of getting punched in the head or kicked in the shins you could walk it off and tap some guys out no hassle.

columok

If you say so,

You need to watch UFC 1 and 2. See for yourself.

I didn't know you had so much experience of getting punched in the head or kicked in the shins you could walk it off and tap some guys out no hassle.

Thai boxers kick you in the quads (just above the knee) you block and kick with yours shins. In MMA League GZ and MMA League DB I fought a thai boxer and found that while leg kicks sting once you learn to crash through them into the clinch you can go home at the end of the day without a bad limp.

The quality of strikers in UFC 1 and 2 (bar Orlando Weit) was pretty poor and even Orlando had no clinch (bar thai clinch) and no ground. He was snuffed out pretty fast when he fought Remco- a very average grappler (traditional jiu jitsu) with no striking.

Also bear in mind Royce Gracie is a comparatively rubbish and one dimensional fighter by todays standards. Your average US college wrestler or Irish judoka has a lot better clinch skills than Royce. (Crazy brazilian shoots) and he managed to take everyone down and not get hit. I think youre overestimating the ability of a regular striker in staying on their feet.

EPO_MAN

Comok?
I take your point on the early TMA but really do you think you'd have beaten KIMO. At the time a TKD fighter - although he tapped to Royce Gracie he was the one who walked outha the ring on his own steam (UFC3)
Keith Hackey? took a very good fight to Royce Gracie (UFC4) and was unlucky to lose the way he did. Although I admit he managed to injure his hand in the beatin Emmanulle Yarbourgh (sumo almost 700 pounds) which was kinda silly as that should have been an easy fight.
Dan Stevern? Pat Smith? Marco Ruas?Oleg Tatarov(? ahhh russian spelling be you know who).
Go on ring Oleg's agent up and challenge him to a fight...
Sorry i'm getting pissy here.

Anyway I should have made this point 100 posts ago.
Watch the early UFC's and listen to the commnetary and apart from Shamrock, Gracie and one or two other the rest were amateur....policemen, prison officers etc.... compared with today and their sponsership etc...they are all full timers. Pro's.
Like asking Shamrock rovers to play man u and have a chance.
It not like with like.

dlofnep

Epo Man.. He said he would of beatne 90% of what was in UFC 1 & 2. Kimo never fought in any of those, neither did Marco Ruas, Oleg or anyone else for that matter. Kimo was not a TKD practitioner. That is what was put down on his stats to hype him up.. Just the same way Tank Abbott was a "pitfighter". All hyper-titles.

Look at the competition. You have Gerard Gordeau who was tapped out by a 10 stone, 5'6" Yuki Nakai in Japan Vale Tudo Open 95. Why? He had ground skills. Then you have art Jimmerson.. He had no takedown defence and no ground skills.. My little brother could of taken it to the ground with him and tapping him out.

Then you have "Pat Smith".. Pat Smith didn't last 2 minutes with a mediocre grappler at that time in Ken Shamrock.. Heel hook at 1:49 into the fight.

Then you have Teila Tuli - Unless he was going to eat you, I doubt he would of done much but bullrush you.

The fighters from UFC 1 & 2 were mediocre. Traditional styled martial artists who were inaffective in a real fight. Anyone with a half decent wrestling and jiu-jitsu background could of beaten them.

Topic over.

pma-ire

I remember watching these early UFC's (I think we watched 3 all in the one night?) and all my buddys said the same thing, that many of the "TMA'ers" looked like cannon fodder.

They were there to get a thrashing. Some did'int look like any type of fighters and it seemed amazing that they made it into the competition at all? Unless the company running it hand picked the nuttiest heads they could find to make sure that someone got creamed for the cameras. Because the look on some of there faces told of men who did'int know what they were getting into!!

One thing it did do is wake folk up to the fact that they have to cover all ranges of combat if they want to have a full on fight (and more so if your gonna fight out of your combat sport style without the rules there to protect you).

But the UFC seems to have changed a lot since then. The ones I've seen on Bravo look crap compared to the first 10 or so.