SDLP caught lying over McCartney "support"

Mercury_Tilt

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mike65

Shields up!

Not sure how much this is about the "SDLP" as opposed to ppl who have connection to the party but who also happen to be in business running things like a travel agency...its not like they financed the trip and sent minders with the sisters and to have a PR person is resonable too, its not like they are veterans at working the floor unlike Gerry, Martin etc.

Mike.

mycroft

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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As I understand it their press liason was just some poor bloke who got drafted in at the last minute, and the arranging of credit is fairly common place.

The title of the article says it all "SDLP arranged trip" They sorted out the credit and the kid in the US was working off his own bat and not under an orders from the party.

This reeks of desperation.

Mercury_Tilt

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Mercury_Tilt

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mycroft

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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these one's?

Interesting that the SDLP would deny offering help to get the sisters across to see Mr Bush.... Why?

What could be so wrong with admitting such simple help as offering to help them get to america? Have they some sinister agenda!?!? Can any party in the North be trusted to tell the truth!?!?!

The article suggests the SDLP organised the trip. 1 member of the SDLP helped in a small way, and one former member helped out.

Do you not think it was possible they (the SDLP) didn't know these people were helping in the first place?

So the original denial was made without being fully aware of all the facts, that one of the members in his capacity as a travel agent, supplied a line of credit?

But the party was truthful in its original denial that they as a political organisation are not helping out?

mike65

from article

Senior SDLP members...

If the party did'nt organise the trip over then they have nothing to deny. The SDLP party was'nt lying. Daily Ireland on the other hand is a provo rag looking to cause the SDLP and the McCartneys some discomfort while giving the SF ammo.

Mike.

Dr McDonnell, a partner in Arrow Travel, admitted he had given the McCartneys credit approval for the trip.

You know, a few moons ago I rang a travel agent for a trip to Australia aged 22 with no assets and nothing in my arse pocket and got credit approval for the flights...
I didn't need the SDLP or anybody.

Mercury_Tilt

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Mercury_Tilt

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mycroft

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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There is nothing in the body of the article that follows that suggests the party made that decision. Mc Donnell did. The SDLP did not consciously as a group do so.

Saying it doesn't make it true.

I was going to say I am sure you could do better mike. But then I remembered you cant.

Pot, black, kettle, calling, the.

Please arrange the above words to suit the tone of my reply to that sentiment.

I am sure you will find another article to post up soon enough suit your needs.

:eek:

It would help if the article came from a credible source and not that rag.

uberwolf

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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hmmm indeed, focus on the post and not the poster or you'll be on the outside looking in for a week.

mycroft

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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It doesnt? Really? What about the, y'know, title!

SDLP organised McCartney visit

The body of the text does not support the allegation that the article leads with. It's gutter tabloid journalism of the shabbiest worst kind.

It also clearly states in the article that the SDLP "denied helping" the family get to America. But after some investigative journalism they were caught lying.

The article starts by trying to suggest that the SDLP organised the trip. It undoes itself in the presentation of the facts.

Once again the SDLP didn't organise the trip, one of their members made a couple of calls. The SDLP might have been unaware of this small fact when they made the original denial.

Theres a mole here over there, fling enough dirt on it and viola you have a mountain.

Those are the facts. The measure of help is not in question. Nor the help itself.

Yes it is. Theres a world of difference between the title and body of text.

Why deny such a simple thing?

Maybe try the rest of my questions..


Were they afraid of a political back lash because they were taking advantage of a rather sad situation to enhance the political leverage of the event its self? Did they fear the truth would give voice to various comments that the Sisters were being "used by political parties"?

:eek:

Theres no evidence to support those questions. You've made a straw man argument. The SDLP didn't help, therefore the rest of your questions are moot because the original point isn't valid.

Mercury_Tilt

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Slutmonkey57b

Well it's an article that reeks of grabbing at straws, but then McGuinness did "warn" the sisters not to be messing with the shinners.

The sisters did admit that they got financial help with the flights but that they were paying their own living expenses, so I don't see how this "new" information constitutes anything to bash either the sisters or the SDLP with (unless you're writing at the behest of someone who wants to smear them). If the Daily Ireland can't find a way to paint the ex-SDLP member who helped them out as being more enthusiastic than thinking "there was more life in a cemetary" than the SDLP, then I think it's a pretty safe bet that he's not acting on behalf of the party.

It's newsworthy more as part of the opening broadside in the standard "destroy the victims' character" media tactic the terrorist movement(s) like to use when discovered in the midst of unsavoury dealings.

mike65

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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Ignoring the personal abuse I'll focus on the salient point of this non-story. Alasdair McDonnell who is a member of the SDLP and a travel agent gave assistance. He is NOT the party and the party is NOT him. So the party
(which remeber is NOT Mr McDonnell) had nothing to acknowledge.

more disussion on this topic

Mike.

Mercury_Tilt

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Mercury_Tilt

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jbkenn

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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Nice try, Mercury_Tilt, Nice try,

jbkenn

mike65

So what you all are saying is that the or a party cannot be held accountable for actions of its member unless sanctioned at a high level or something to that effect?

He he! I was waiting for that line of thinking, and I don't blame you for raising it as a diversionary tactic.

The difference between the IRA and SF vis a vis the murder, oops Manslaughter of Jerry McCabe or the murder of Robert McCartney and the SDLP and any of its members is this - the SDLP are'nt killing anyone for political or financial gain. The SDLP are'nt alligned with a terrorist "army" the SDLP do not glory in the work of killers at thier Ard Fheis. And so on.

Mike.

The Muppet

It's a non story indicating how much Sinn Fein want to detract from the actual issues in the Mc Cartney Murder. The fact that the Sisters were helped by a member of the SDLP is totally understandable. Helping constituents is what civilised politics is about.

Who knows why the SDLP told the lie If they did . It's possible Mr. Attwood was not acting in his capacity as an SDLP advisor when he helped the sisters.


Whether the SDLP lied or not is irrelevant, there are far more serious issues with this story that Sinn Fein should be addressing instead of muckraking.

Mercury_Tilt

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Slutmonkey57b

Could we have a little less of the hyperbole and attacking the poster while we're at it Mercury? I believe you've already been warned once.

jbkenn

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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You really are clutching at straws

Though I feel it will be handy to quote from this thread in the future.

I have no doubt you will.

jbkenn

Mercury_Tilt

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cdebru

mike65 wrote:

Shields up!

Not sure how much this is about the "SDLP" as opposed to ppl who have connection to the party but who also happen to be in business running things like a travel agency...its not like they financed the trip and sent minders with the sisters and to have a PR person is resonable too, its not like they are veterans at working the floor unlike Gerry, Martin etc.

Mike.

lol that is a classic line of defence

it was not us it was people with connections to us

mmm i think i have heard it somewhere before

The Muppet

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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The SDLP are a political party and not an Army . As you know there would be hugh difference in command structure so its a null point if you ask me . But nice try all the same.

mike65

cdebru wrote:

mmm i think i have heard it somewhere before

You have, and it was the only reason MT started this thread I suspect.

All a bit lame really.

Mike.

The Muppet

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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I didnt suggest the journalist lied, I said its a non story because by your own admission it's understandable that the SDLP helped and whether they want to admit that publically or not pales into insignificance when you consider the other issues in the Mc Cartney Murder.

Are you suggesting that politicians should not help constituents in such circumstances ?

Sleep tight.

A Dub in Glasgo

In my opinion, the McCartney sisters have been used by people with other agendas and those people found the McCartney case a useful conduit to move their agenda forward.

Should this impact on the campaign to get justice for the family of Robert McCartney? It should not but in the realpolitik of the situation, it will probably hurt them especially with initial denials of help.

Nearly everyone questions the backers of justice campaigns. I previously posted a link to the Relatives For Justice website which details the issue of state murder and the apparant legality of it. I was harangued by some on this forum because I posted a link to, in their eyes, an IRA backed propaganda website.

Every case should be taken on its merits but that does not happen in real life and it certainly does not happen on boards.

AmenToThat

mike65 wrote:

He he! I was waiting for that line of thinking, and I don't blame you for raising it as a diversionary tactic.

The difference between the IRA and SF vis a vis the murder, oops Manslaughter of Jerry McCabe or the murder of Robert McCartney and the SDLP and any of its members is this - the SDLP are'nt killing anyone for political or financial gain. The SDLP are'nt alligned with a terrorist "army" the SDLP do not glory in the work of killers at thier Ard Fheis. And so on.

Mike.

The topic under discussion is the SDLP and their relationship (or not) with the McCartney sisters.
As usual when the 'SF bashings society' run out of ammunition or find that their arguments are indeed wrong its back to 'old reliable'.
Very predictable and very boring at this stage Im afraid.

mike65

AmenToThat you may have missed the subtext of Mercury Tilt starting this thread or at least steering it in a particluar direction -

So what you all are saying is that the or a party cannot be held accountable for actions of its member unless sanctioned at a high level or something to that effect?

MT was seeking to draw a parallel (as I see it) between the accusastions leveled at SF/IRA regarding McCartneys murder by members of the IRA and the help given to the sisters by a member of SDLP. The sisters do not (as far as I can tell) have a relationship with the SDLP party. Do they need to issue a statement "to clarify"? Maybe if it puts this to bed.

Mike.

Hobbes

mycroft wrote:

The article suggests the SDLP organised the trip. 1 member of the SDLP helped in a small way, and one former member helped out.

Do you not think it was possible they (the SDLP) didn't know these people were helping in the first place?

Yea its a bit like SF not knowing that people in the IRA did a bank job? :rolleyes:

I think this is a bit of a non-story but does make more sense about McGuinness comments about the sisters being political pawns.

AmenToThat

mike65 wrote:

AmenToThat you may have missed the subtext of Mercury Tilt starting this thread or at least steering it in a particluar direction -

As far as I can see he was simply asking why would the SDLP want to deny any involvment with (or help given to if you want to term it like that) the McCartney sisters.
How this equates to another round by the SF bashing squad is beyond me but you seem to have been able to pull it off.
God bless your imagination as it seems to be working overtime right now.

cdebru

Hobbes wrote:

Yea its a bit like SF not knowing that people in the IRA did a bank job? :rolleyes:

I think this is a bit of a non-story but does make more sense about McGuinness comments about the sisters being political pawns.

if it helps tp put into perspective what mcguinness was refering to when he made those remarks i think it is at least worthwile bringing the issue to public notice
especially given the denial by the SDLP that they were involved in helping


not that there is anything wrong with anyone helping the sisters people should just be upfront about it and not have it dragged out of them by the media. There is nothing to be ashamed of in helping these women so why the secrecy

gandalf

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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You are on a warning already, if I see another one like this I will ban you from here!

gandalf

OK to the article at hand. Yes if the SDLP helped the McCartney sisters get to the states then they should admit it. However it is not a big deal and all this article from the "unbiased" Daily Ireland newspaper is a crude attempt at re-direction.

As pointed out here already no one lies in a freshly dug grave without justice because of the SDLP's actions, a child is fatherless because of members of the IRA's actions and Justice is not being done due to the "forgetfulness" of Sinn Fein members who have stood for election.

The fact that some people have made this an issue after weeks of inaction by the so called Nationalist majority party in the North is quite pathetic and quite frankly imho stinks of desparation.

gandalf

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Could we have a little less of the hyperbole and attacking the poster while we're at it Mercury? I believe you've already been warned once.

Next time just report the post ok :rolleyes:

BuffyBot

Ah, yes the Daily Ireland. Naturally, they're the first people who'll give fair and balanced coverage to this story.

To be honest, it strikes me as being very little more than a diversionary tactic. You know what they say about specks and planks and all that.

AmenToThat

gandalf wrote:

OK to the article at hand. Yes if the SDLP helped the McCartney sisters get to the states then they should admit it.
However it is not a big deal and all this article from the "unbiased" Daily Ireland newspaper is a crude attempt at re-direction.

No more unbiased than most other newspapers just biased in a different direction.
It is a fact of the case( especially seeing that the British elections are only about six weeks away) and as such should be reported.
Indeed if other newspapers know about this and decided not to run the story then they are reporting or choosing to ignore in a biased fashion, which of course all newspapers do.

gandalf wrote:

As pointed out here already no one lies in a freshly dug grave without justice because of the SDLP's actions, a child is fatherless because of members of the IRA's actions and Justice is not being done due to the "forgetfulness" of Sinn Fein members who have stood for election.

The fact that some people have made this an issue after weeks of inaction by the so called Nationalist majority party in the North is quite pathetic and quite frankly imho stinks of desparation.

Again we have an attempt to change a story about the SDLP into another SF bashing.
There are plenty of threads regarding SF on this particular issue do we really need another?

cdebru

honestly the daily Ireland is no more biased in one direction than papers like the Indo and Sindo are in the other


BTW what do they say about specks and planks???

cdebru

gandalf wrote:

OK to the article at hand. Yes if the SDLP helped the McCartney sisters get to the states then they should admit it. However it is not a big deal and all this article from the "unbiased" Daily Ireland newspaper is a crude attempt at re-direction.

As pointed out here already no one lies in a freshly dug grave without justice because of the SDLP's actions, a child is fatherless because of members of the IRA's actions and Justice is not being done due to the "forgetfulness" of Sinn Fein members who have stood for election.

The fact that some people have made this an issue after weeks of inaction by the so called Nationalist majority party in the North is quite pathetic and quite frankly imho stinks of desparation.

If the SDLP helped the sisters by not being straight about it they have let the diversionary tactic be used

if they helped and had been honest about it so what gerry adams has already said it is the patriotic duty to help the mccartneys what makes it look dubious is that they denied it

gandalf

AmenToThat wrote:

No more unbiased than most other newspapers just biased in a different direction.
It is a fact of the case( especially seeing that the British elections are only about six weeks away) and as such should be reported.
Indeed if other newspapers know about this and decided not to run the story then they are reporting or choosing to ignore in a biased fashion, which of course all newspapers do.

Never said that other newspapers are not unbiased. I mean (Sir :rolleyes:) Anto's rags seem to have a hard on for getting at Sinn Fein at the moment.

As for the SDLP fair play to them, they have been too passive in the past with regard to Sinn Fein, they should hammer home the advantage now.

Again we have an attempt to change a story about the SDLP into another SF bashing.
There are plenty of threads regarding SF on this particular issue do we really need another?

No what you have are people putting a perspective on this story. We all know what this is, a deflection exercise allowing poor old Sinn Fein to climb back on their martyrs cross which they love so much :rolleyes:

Rosser

Let me just balance this up, a member of the SDLP arranges credit and passage for the McCarthneys to go to the US vs Sinn Fein members present in the bar where at the time of the murder, which they first deny then change their stories about 10 times....

Yeah it's a difficult one alright.....

Villain

The SDLP are using this issue as a political football as are a lot of other party's, in the mean time the people who murdered this poor man are walking free. I'm afraid the McCartney sisters might be losing their way, if this becomes any more political they may never get justice.

The SDLP lied as does every political party what the motive was in this case I don't know, maybe people might think they were using the sisters or maybe they were just helping a family seek justice. I think the later would have been easier to believe if they hadn't lied.

Now this thread is not about SF so please for the sake of the children leave them out of it

Lemming

irish1 wrote:

The SDLP are using this issue as a political football as are a lot of other party's, in the mean time the people who murdered this poor man are walking free. I'm afraid the McCartney sisters might be losing their way, if this becomes any more political they may never get justice.

Must. Bite. Tongue.

The SDLP lied as does every political party what the motive was in this case I don't know, maybe people might think they were using the sisters or maybe they were just helping a family seek justice. I think the later would have been easier to believe if they hadn't lied.

There is another way to look at this:

The party helped (ie. funded) the sisters and knowing what would happen if it did came to light kept it quiet.

I would be more inclined to believe the SDLP over the innuendos of a bunch of murdering cutthroats, terrorists and general criminals however. Unless of course SF/IRA can show credible proof beyond mere innuendo that the SDLP gained direct political capital out of helping the sisters in the way they did.

mycroft

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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Reall cause you are making a load of hypotheticals....

What we have here is two phonecalls. If you were to work it another way, this could be a scandal about someone pointing some business towards his friends travel agency.

We have one man, asking for a line of credit with a friends travel agency.

The suggestion of the former SDLP member in Washington, is just daft. Every report I've read is he was just the only person in Washington anyone vaguely knew. This wasn't a campaign.

So can we argee we can disregard that?

So then from that we have one phone call to a friends travel agency, which maybe wasn't known to the person in SDLP who made the denial.

You're hypothetizing that this was a decision made by the SDLP. You've no evidence that the person who made the original denial was aware of the tiny minor phonecall made by another member of the SDLP.

Yet I'm the one making hypotheticals?

You cite as a source that a paper making this phenominally flimsy and unsubstantiated alledgation but makes it front page new "SDLP organised Mc Carthy Washington Trip"

I would also suggest that you would not be able to fling enough dirt on a mole hill to make a mountain. That would require many man hours and the use of alot of heavy machinary. I belive but can be corrected here that the standard height of a mountain if around 305 meters. I have no idea of the required mass that is required.

Ah metaphors aren't your forte then. Thats okay. Obviously abuse of hypotheticals is.

You tell a lot of lies mycrof. A lot of lies......

really? where? Exactly where have I lied. I've already posted that accusation to a mod.

Less of the hypothetical stuff.. and more sticking to the facts I think!

You're quoting an article which starts with a exaggeration, fails to substaniate the thrust of the piece, and you're accusing me of not sticking to the facts?

Sand

The SDLP are using this issue as a political football as are a lot of other party's, in the mean time the people who murdered this poor man are walking free. I'm afraid the McCartney sisters might be losing their way, if this becomes any more political they may never get justice.

Maybe the next time your local IRA - woops SF - candidate shows up to mow your lawn you should ask him to demand that the IRA - woops SF - candidates, members and supporters in the bar give a statement to the police. There wont be justice for the McCartneys until then.

And can someone buy SF/IRA a ****ing theasaurus? "Political football" is rising to the heights of "Sit-YEE-a-SHUN" and "Peace Proccess" and "commitment" in their cut and paste political soundbites. Someone was obviously paying attention to Royston Bradys "Drive, Energy and Commitment" slogan approach to political debate.

As for the story, whats the issue here? The sisters need help - their local representitives have murdered their brother and are stonewalling them, only using them as a political eyecandy at their Ard Fheis in a cynical stunt. An SDLP figure is asked to help them get a line of credit with a travel agent and he does. Certainly no SF/IRA figure offers to help them out, apart from offering to murder some low ranking scapegoats it will decide to finger for the murder.

There is no indication that the SDLP asked or told the sister to go to the US, they certainly didnt tell them to go to the SF Ard Fheis. The Daily Ireland is just a provo rag, a tool Adams and the Army Council are using to try and penetrate Middle Ireland because they recognise An Phoblacht is widely recognised as a provo rag already. The whole story is taking a few details and creating a vast conspiracy from it.

Between the death threats made in the name of the IRA against the sisters and this rubbish of a story its obvious SF/IRA have decided to try and crush the sisters campaign for justice. Id say the provos are already out there hammering away building their crosses so they can nail themselves to it and wail about their persecution.

Victor

Situation 1: A man is murdered with 70 or so SF/IRA members present and the party says it doesn't know.

Situation 2: 1 member and 1 ex-member of the SDLP help an out-of-their-depth family and the party says it doesn't know.

Hmmmmm .... :rolleyes:

monument

gandalf wrote:

OK to the article at hand. Yes if the SDLP helped the McCartney sisters get to the states then they should admit it. However it is not a big deal and all this article from the "unbiased" Daily Ireland newspaper is a crude attempt at re-direction.

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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On both points above in bold text -

Of course, such logic can only be used in an "unbiased" way. No one here would ever use such logic in a biased way, say as to apply it to one party/paper/group/etc and not another, never. Because everyone here is "unbiased".

monument

monument wrote:

Of course, such logic can only be used in an "unbiased" way. No one here would ever use such logic in a biased way, say as to apply it to one party/paper/group/etc and not another, never. Because everyone here is "unbiased".

You know, only that I'm aware that if I pm'ed Merc at this point,I'd interupt his viewing of the excelent Despearate Housewives I am very tempted to ask him would he mind changing the title of this thread...

The Title I would have in mind would be...


SDLP inextricably linked to a travelagency

Pun intended