WTF/ITF Styles TKD - Discuss

memphis

I just fancied getting a discussion going on the 2 styles of Tae Kwon Do, namely WTF and ITF, what are the simularities, difference, or Pros and Cons of training with each style.

Yours in TKD,
memphis

dudara

I remember a thread on this a while back, unfortunately I can't find it now.

I suppose one of the main differences is in how the styles spar. I train with an ITF club, and we allow semi-contact with kicks and punches to the head and body allowed. We also don't wear body armour. AFAIK, WTF doesn't allow strikes to head, which to me, makes it less interesting to watch.

i watched in the Olympics, and I have to say that I thought it didn't do much for the image of TKD in general, regardless of your affiliation.

Clive

Different forms(poomse/hyung), uniforms, sparring rules etc.

WTF TKD is far better organised as a sport (ie one official NGB, affiliated to one official Internation Federation).

WTF is more linked with South Korea, ITF with the north.

General Choi, the tenets of TKD, and modern inventions like the "sine wave" are far more prevalent in ITF than WTF.

In terms of sparring ITF allows semi-contact kicks and punches to the head and body, WTF allows full contact kicks to the head and body, and punches to the body, with the requirement of "trembling shock" to score a point. WTF generally pads the target areas (body and head) whereas ITF pads the weapons (kick boots and gloves).

Loads of others...

Tim_Murphy

WTF is a bastardised version of TKD (if you are to believe many ITFers :rolleyes: )

What you get when you do 'ITF style' can vary hugely between clubs and associations. Some are good, some are pretty rubbish IMO. Even though it thankfully wasn't the case with the group I trained with, many ITF people actually believe all the tradition stuff will work just fine for them in a real fight, including using sine wave and the like.
Direct quote:
"Although the techniques in patterns can't be exactly executed in real life, it can be modified instantly to fit any possiblities. "
and another one I liked:
"Plus, constantly practising pattern will enable us to react spontateously to an attack. This I am very sure, coz I spontaeteously countered an attack by two friends who wanted to tested me; when I told them I learnt TAekwondo. They just tried to strike me without my prior knowledge, but without knowing my hands just came out to foil the strikes,however, I wasn't able to perfrom them in full tTAekwondo stances."

The orgainisation of ITF style is a complete disaster as well unfortunately. There are 3 groups all claiming to be the ITF, there is also the ICTF and the U-ITF, and thats just the 5 groups that emerged out of the actual ITF in the past few years, there's loads more as well. More 'world championships' than you could shake a stick at!

Roper

WTF view themselves as a sport, ITF as a martial art. WTF, in my experience of it, train almost exclusively for he purposes of WTF (Olympic style) competition, and most of their training is to that end.
ITF, as you said above Tim, who knows what ITF do, or are, or represent. It's probably best to just leave the close minded ones to their own little parish of thought. I think the whole MA world is on the turn at the moment, and they won't be able to continue in that vein for much longer.

breadmonkey

What is this "sine wave" thing.

Tim_Murphy

what is 'sine wave'?
Imagine traditional karate movements, now add a kind of bouncing motion up and down as you do movements.
It supposedly makes traditional movements more powerful. Has no practical value whatsoever, although some people talk about it as if it does.

dudara

You rise up as you start a movement, and finish it as you come back down. It's theoretically supposed to add power to your strike. Kind of like the hip turning thing in karate.

It's realistically no good in a fight, but on the floor, when doing the traditional stuff, it adds a kind of dynamic style.

Millionaire

I did WTF at uni fpr a few years, like years ago. It was totally Olympic sport orintated, of course we did the forms and all the bowing to master Oh Jang someone or other bs. The training was tough as in for a sport, and the sparring hard, it was 97% kicks.

It was frustraing for me cause I wanted training for self defense, and all the tecaher knew was how to score points in a competition.

he was excellent at what he did, but it was not my scene.

Clive

WTF has really gone to the dogs in this country in recent years.

I went to the junior national championships a few years ago and saw ONE knockout during the whole day, it was disgraceful.

memphis

So in other words WTF is focused on the sport side of it, while ITF (and clubs afiliated to it) take a more traditional approach.

Sounds to me then that ITF could well be the better one to train under. I was tryin to explain the difference to a mate of mine (not into MA) and he couldn't understand why there were 2 branches anyway... I obviously wasn't able to explain. Why the split, why the division between sport and tradition?

dudara

Politics, pretty much. Under General Choi Hong Hoi, the TKD became fractured and even after his death, there's still a lot of in-fighting. You've got to realise that the TKD market worldwide is a very lucrative one.

memphis

Lucrative? In what sense? Explain?

dudara

TKD is a massive sport/art worldwide. Every organisation get membership fees from it's members. Every national organisation pays fees to it's governing body.

For instance, the annual fee for the INTA in ireland is E20. (it's probably less for juniors, though I'm not sure). That's a fair whack of money.

Then there's the glory of the olympics for the WTF. That must be worth a good bit sponsorship wise and so on. Also, a lot of the head people in TKD like power. And TKD is an art where you can insist on the traditional grovelling before master. So people who like power can get a power trip in the TKD easily enough.

I'm sure there's many more reason why the TKD is so split.

pma-ire

Here's a little background on Taekwon-Do.

Skip down to the modern parts and if you thought the ITF/WTF thing was mad, you'll think this is crazy altogether

http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_tkd/dj_tkd_history.html

I think I remember reading on the net somewhere that Choi's son was arrested trying to kill the President of Korea some years back?

I also remember that the president of the WTF was arrested for heading an organised crime ring, and had been creaming off the WTF for years!

Mad men :rolleyes:

Tim_Murphy

Also, a lot of the head people in TKD like power. And TKD is an art where you can insist on the traditional grovelling before master. So people who like power can get a power trip in the TKD easily enough.

True, very true. Unfortunately a lot of TKD is 'me instructor, you student, end of discussion'. I think in a lot of cases the formality and all that goes with it has become as important as the training itself, which is pretty sad.

mark.leonard

Tim_Murphy wrote:

True, very true. Unfortunately a lot of TKD is 'me instructor, you student, end of discussion'. I think in a lot of cases the formality and all that goes with it has become as important as the training itself, which is pretty sad.

I think you are right too Tim, I have seen it at its worst and it is not a pretty sight. I am lucky with my instructors there is none of that rubbish and in Galway I am extremely informal, I am sure some hardline ITF'ers would swoon if they saw all my lowly white or yellow belt addressing me by my first name instead of 'Sir'!

pma-ire

mark.leonard wrote:

I am sure some hardline ITF'ers would swoon if they saw all my lowly white or yellow belt addressing me by my first name instead of 'Sir'!

It's sad but true Mark

Tim_Murphy

I am sure some hardline ITF'ers would swoon if they saw all my lowly white or yellow belt addressing me by my first name instead of 'Sir'!

Mr. Leonard I am shocked!! Next thing you'll tell me that you have an occasional alcoholic beverage with these low grades?! :eek:

I think the worst thing about the petty kind of so called politics that you see in TKD is that it can bring out a pretty nasty side of otherwise very decent people.

Roper

Instructor Tim is right about the alcoholic beverage consumption and your lack of adherence to the tenets Mr. Leonard.

I made a decision about 6 months ago to not get involved in anything at all outside of training. Theres just far too many people emotionally involved and each claiming the higher ground. I stay away altogether from the politics end.

memphis

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Mr. Leonard I am shocked!! Next thing you'll tell me that you have an occasional alcoholic beverage with these low grades?! :eek:

I think the worst thing about the petty kind of so called politics that you see in TKD is that it can bring out a pretty nasty side of otherwise very decent people.

Nothing wrong with this approach. I kinda like the informal approach my instructor takes with us students. We all call him by his first name as apposed to calling him "Sir", however I am always careful to call examiners and other instructors "Sir"!.

And yes, I have have a few alcoholic beverages with my instructor, but its not a regular occurance.

Tim_Murphy

Memphis, take no notice of me, I'm only messing with Mark. I've long ago given up on the idea of getting people who train with me to call me sir.

Roper, I know what you mean by people getting emotionally involved!! If you don't mind me asking, do you get any flack for doing grappling? Do you include it into your TKD training?

mark.leonard

Excuse me Roper, I am a strict adherant of the tenets - Rape, Pillage and Burn, and the TKD oath "Always pillage before you burn"

memphis

mark.leonard wrote:

Excuse me Roper, I am a strict adherant of the tenets - Rape, Pillage and Burn, and the TKD oath "Always pillage before you burn"

My God, now I'm shocked and horrified. I always like to think that the tenets are there to improve ones self not just as an Ma'er but also as an individual, as course like all rules they are there to be stretched..... On a serious note, its up to the individual as to what way they choose to interpret the tenets is it not?

Roper

Tim,
Not a whole lot. But there is a certain element there alright, but it's more subtle then "don't do that" and hence a little more annoying. As with a great many things sometimes when people say "sure go ahead and do other things" what they mean is " .......as long as it's with us!"
And I don't include it as part of my TKD training per say. It's now about 50% of what I do myself when I train, but with my class I stick to the TKD though occasionally I might mix something in. I have about 80% kids so I never show them a sub but might get them to roll, they call it wrasslin' though!

Excuse me Roper, I am a strict adherant of the tenets - Rape, Pillage and Burn, and the TKD oath "Always pillage before you burn"

It's funny how people do things in other associations, I always do it the other way around.

"Crimes?"
"Rape, murder, arson, and rape".
"You said rape twice"
"I like rape"
(Thats from Blazing Saddles before the PC brigade have me shot)

pma-ire

mark.leonard wrote:

Excuse me Roper, I am a strict adherant of the tenets - Rape, Pillage and Burn, and the TKD oath "Always pillage before you burn"

I thought that was just a Connacht thing?

Irishkickingcat

dudara wrote:

AFAIK, WTF doesn't allow strikes to head, which to me, makes it less interesting to watch.

From the Article 12 of WTF rules, the legal scoring areas are A. Mid-section of the trunk: the abdomen and both sides of the flank and B. Head: the permitted parts of the head.
In the heavy weight mens final of the 2004 Olympics, Korea knocked Greece out with a kick to the head.

dudara wrote:

i watched in the Olympics, and I have to say that I thought it didn't do much for the image of TKD in general, regardless of your affiliation.

I absolutely and categorically disagree. It was an incredible spectacle. However doctors differ and patients die. So while I think it rocked and you don't, I wouldn't think either of us should generalise for the population at large.

Clive wrote:

WTF TKD is far better organised as a sport (ie one official NGB, affiliated to one official Internation Federation).

WTF Taekwondo practitioners in Ireland are all affiliated to the one national governing body, the Irish Taekwondo Union which is recognised by the Irish Sports Council and the Olympic Council of Ireland. Through this affiliation, irish players can compete up to and including the olympics. There are only one WTF World championships, university players can compete in the Universiade (university olympics).

Tim Murphy wrote:

WTF is a bastardised version of TKD (if you are to believe many ITFers)

I think that we martial arts/sports players have got to accept that there IS room for different opinions. But this “ITF” concept … there is so much division among those who claim to adhere to it, how can they “throw stone” at WTFers who can travel anywhere in the world, and will be able to train with other WTFers?

Roper wrote:

WTF view themselves as a sport, ITF as a martial art. WTF, in my experience of it, train almost exclusively for he purposes of WTF (Olympic style) competition, and most of their training is to that end.

Throughout the Irish Taekwondo Union, there are members of all ages and abilities. These members are made up of adults trying to get fit, parents trying to get their kids focused, girls learning self defence, forty year olds striving for their black belt, people wanting to learn something of another culture and yes, players who want to stretch themselves to their limit, be it facing another person for a match in the club or the olympics.

Tim Murphy wrote:

It supposedly makes traditional movements more powerful. Has no practical value whatsoever, although some people talk about it as if it does.

In WTF, everything makes sense from a physiological point of view. If it does’t, sports scientists come out and admit that doesn’t make sense, give their interpretation of how to improve the technique, and coachs work on it with their players. Unlike other static martial arts who do something because that is the way it has always been done.

Clive wrote:

I went to the junior national championships a few years ago and saw ONE knockout during the whole day, it was disgraceful.

Not quite sure if I understand your point. Are you being sarcastic and asking in a roundabout way why a junior was knocked out?

Clive wrote:

WTF has really gone to the dogs in this country in recent years.

I beg to differ. In March the Irish Taekwondo Union sent nine male and eight female players to the European Junior Championships in Baku, Azerbaijan. The –55kg male player brought home a bronze medal, the –63kg female player brought home a silver. These results placed Ireland above countries such as Britain and France. In April, two female and five male players travel to Madrid, Spain to represent Ireland in the Senior World Championships (www.madridtkd2005.com)
And on that note Ladies and Gentlemen, I’m off training!

Roper

Nicely put Cat.

On your response to my point:

Originally Posted by Roper

WTF view themselves as a sport, ITF as a martial art. WTF, in my experience of it, train almost exclusively for he purposes of WTF (Olympic style) competition, and most of their training is to that end.

Throughout the Irish Taekwondo Union, there are members of all ages and abilities. These members are made up of adults trying to get fit, parents trying to get their kids focused, girls learning self defence, forty year olds striving for their black belt, people wanting to learn something of another culture and yes, players who want to stretch themselves to their limit, be it facing another person for a match in the club or the olympics.

I wasn't implying ALL WTF practitioners are striving for gold merely that WTF is a sport oriented organisation.

Tim_Murphy

I think that we martial arts/sports players have got to accept that there IS room for different opinions. But this “ITF” concept … there is so much division among those who claim to adhere to it, how can they “throw stone” at WTFers who can travel anywhere in the world, and will be able to train with other WTFers?

I agree with you, I was just pointing out that many ITF people look down on other forms of TKD. It's bullS I know. It's definitely not my opinion!

In WTF, everything makes sense from a physiological point of view. If it does’t, sports scientists come out and admit that doesn’t make sense, give their interpretation of how to improve the technique, and coachs work on it with their players. Unlike other static martial arts who do something because that is the way it has always been done.

I was talking traditional movements in forms/patterns etc, which applies to WTF patterns as much as ITF ones.

Slightly off topic: Does anyone else hate the use of the word 'players' instead of fighters?

memphis

Interesting read there kickingcat, thanks for yor contribution to the discussion. There are certainly alot of pros and cons about training with either ITF or WFT, I myslef have trained with GST (Great Southern) before my instructor broke away to form his own club. I belive we follow the same teaches of ITF (in which my instructor is affiliated with.

I do not wish to knock WTF in anyway, but it does appear to be focesed on the sport side of TKD as Roper has rightfully pointed out as opposed to ITF which is focused more on tradition!

Irishkickingcat

Have you ever watched someone in a Taekwondo match who is absolutely brilliant? Its like they are playing a game of kinetic chess, they use fakes, steps and dummy moves as well as luring their oppenent in and tricking them. They have set moves that they can execute with such precision, that it looks like they've been choreographed! That's when I think someone is a player. Of course if they go in and try to kick lumps out of the other person, or "puck the head" off their opponent, I really think they're a fighter!

Roper

Don' hate Da Playa, hate Da game!

Slightly off topic: Does anyone else hate the use of the word 'players' instead of fighters?

Yeah, it's a little Snoop for my tastes!!

That's when I think someone is a player. Of course if they go in and try to kick lumps out of the other person, or "puck the head" off their opponent, I really think they're a fighter!

Do you think both can exist in WTF, or does the more technical approach prevail? (in general)
The reason I ask is to ascertain what your opinion of the self defence merits of WTF are. You mentioned in a post earlier that there are a great many types of people training WTF and some for self defence. Do you think that the "chess"-like nature of the competitive side is a positive step to that end?

Sounds like I'm playing devils advocate here but I am genuinely interested!

Tim_Murphy

Have you ever watched someone in a Taekwondo match who is absolutely brilliant? Its like they are playing a game of kinetic chess, they use fakes, steps and dummy moves as well as luring their oppenent in and tricking them. They have set moves that they can execute with such precision, that it looks like they've been choreographed! That's when I think someone is a player.

That just sound like a good fighter to me!

Irishkickingcat

Roper wrote:

Don' hate Da Playa, hate Da game!
Yeah, it's a little Snoop for my tastes!!


Do you think both can exist in WTF, or does the more technical approach prevail? (in general)
The reason I ask is to ascertain what your opinion of the self defence merits of WTF are. You mentioned in a post earlier that there are a great many types of people training WTF and some for self defence. Do you think that the "chess"-like nature of the competitive side is a positive step to that end?

Sounds like I'm playing devils advocate here but I am genuinely interested!

If someone goes into the ring against a much superior player, perhaps they should try to fight them, get scrappy, mix it up, risk getting a few deductions to throw their opponent off-kilter, ruffle their feathers. On the other hand, if one faces a brute of a player who is fired up and intent on trying to knock one out, then they are wide open to be played, make sense? The above refers to competing, not self defence.

Now. Let's talk about hurlers. They go and learn about soloing, hitting the sliotar with their hurley, using it to hook other players. However when they are walking home and get accosted, they do not use these skills to defend themselves, they use their hurley in a completely different manner! However they are more familiar with their hurley than someone who has never used one before, and due to their increased fitness levels (okay maybe not at junior B level) they have a better chance of running away from their would be assailants.

mark.leonard

Tim_Murphy wrote:

That just sound like a good fighter to me!

Cat you already know where I sit on the Player/Fighter argument, but for the rest of you, I hate the use of Player instead of the word fighter. I know it is just semantics but I feel it makes it sound less serious somehow. As for the "kinetic chess" point, Joe Rogan is contantly calling the ground battles in the UFC "physical chess matches" and they completely are, in the same way as you described for WTF, but that doesn't make it any less a fight!

memphis

Irishkickingcat wrote:

Have you ever watched someone in a Taekwondo match who is absolutely brilliant? Its like they are playing a game of kinetic chess, they use fakes, steps and dummy moves as well as luring their oppenent in and tricking them. They have set moves that they can execute with such precision, that it looks like they've been choreographed! That's when I think someone is a player. Of course if they go in and try to kick lumps out of the other person, or "puck the head" off their opponent, I really think they're a fighter!

I have seen that in Holland during the EU Championship last November, seems to be a good winning formula in a competition anyway!

On another note thanks for the PM, I can see why someone might change from ITF to WTF, the guy you spoke about (in the PM) whom I know through GST is a damn good fighter, light, young, and quick on his feet. He has won at EU level and came 2nd last November in Holland. He is more focused on the sports side, and deserves the chance to represent Ireland in the Olypimics and indeed at a world/global scale. I wish him luck!

mark.leonard

Irishkickingcat wrote:

However when they are walking home and get accosted, they do not use these skills to defend themselves, they use their hurley in a completely different manner! However they are more familiar with their hurley than someone who has never used one before, and due to their increased fitness levels (okay maybe not at junior B level) they have a better chance of running away from their would be assailants.

So you are saying that training WTF sparring means you have a better chance to defend yourself than someone who has never trained in combat athletics? I agree 100%

Are they well enough able to defend themselves that they can defeat a scumbag in the street? Different question isn't it!

Irishkickingcat

mark.leonard wrote:

So you are saying that training WTF sparring means you have a better chance to defend yourself than someone who has never trained in combat athletics? I agree 100%

Are they well enough able to defend themselves that they can defeat a scumbag in the street? Different question isn't it!

Wow! We agree on something! If you train to compete you have a better chance that someone who is a slob who doesn't train at anything. If you don't train at self defence you don't have as much hope as someone who does train at self defence.

In summation martial arts is not synonymous with self defence.

dudara

Irishkickingcat wrote:

Have you ever watched someone in a Taekwondo match who is absolutely brilliant? Its like they are playing a game of kinetic chess, they use fakes, steps and dummy moves as well as luring their oppenent in and tricking them. They have set moves that they can execute with such precision, that it looks like they've been choreographed! That's when I think someone is a player. Of course if they go in and try to kick lumps out of the other person, or "puck the head" off their opponent, I really think they're a fighter!

That's true of any sparring style. It's not exclusive to WTF.

In regard to your comments about the Olympics, I truly thought they were dull. Not allowing certain strikes really takes a lot of the potential for creativeness out of what could be truly great sparring, because let's admit it, to get to the Olympics, you've got to be good !!

Check out the INTA website. Recently, Ireland have taken gold in individual and team events at senior and junior levels. Irish ITF TKD is amongst the best in the world at the moment. It's a pity that there just isn't more recognition for it, or WTF TKD, as Ireland consistently achieves well in these sports.

mark.leonard

dudara wrote:

Check out the INTA website. Recently, Ireland have taken gold in individual and team events at senior and junior levels. Irish ITF TKD is amongst the best in the world at the moment. It's a pity that there just isn't more recognition for it, or WTF TKD, as Ireland consistently achieves well in these sports.

I don't doubt the INTA have some decent fighters, with Master O'Toole at the helm. Did any of them fight in the Irish Open or any other event where they could compare themselves to the rest of Irish Taekwondoka?

Tim_Murphy

I don't doubt the INTA have some decent fighters, with Master O'Toole at the helm. Did any of them fight in the Irish Open or any other event where they could compare themselves to the rest of Irish Taekwondoka?

Thats the problem isn't it, groups just don't compete against each other that much. It's a shame and I think it makes national competitions a lot less interesting. What makes it worse it that I'd say 99% of the competitors don't care about the politcs they just want to compete but its a few senior people who dictate things.
There were a few AITA people at the IUTF nationals there the year before last, the guy I fought was good. There was talk of a few from the INTA going as well but they ended up having a seperate tournament on the same day

Was there many TKD folk at the Irish open this year? How'd they get on? I was there last year but didn't make it this year.

Roper

Anyone else get sick of playing alphabet soup?

memphis

LOL

alphabet soup eh? Just about sums it up my friend, just about sums it up! Too many damn organizations out there to remember now in fairness.

Tim_Murphy

I hear ya Roper! But who are the IATA? What kind of weird name for a group would that be?? Lets see, we also have AITA, ITA, GST, GTF, NTI, TFI. Course then there are independents.....

In summation martial arts is not synonymous with self defence.

Couldn't agree more, to be honest I don't really care about self defence at all, it's not what trainings about in my club. BUT most martial arts still advertise themselves as self defence to get members even though their training has very little to do with it.

Clive

Irishkickingcat wrote:

WTF Taekwondo practitioners in Ireland are all affiliated to the one national governing body, the Irish Taekwondo Union which is recognised by the Irish Sports Council and the Olympic Council of Ireland.

Not quite sure if I understand your point. Are you being sarcastic and asking in a roundabout way why a junior was knocked out?

Just to clarify, not all WTF practitioners are affiliated to the ITU, as I'm certainly not, and know a number of others who aren't either. However the ITU is the NGB for WTF TKD recognised by the ISC.

As for the knockouts, my point was simply what I said. I saw only one knockout at a large tournament. Ten years ago you'd have seen a lot more.

Irishkickingcat

Clive wrote:

As for the knockouts, my point was simply what I said. I saw only one knockout at a large tournament. Ten years ago you'd have seen a lot more.

You mentioned it was a junior tournament. This would involve less knock-outs as coachs and referrees tend to stop a match if they think one player is far superior. They want to encourage juniors to stay in the sport rather than scare them off. What would you have them do, let the stronger kid knock the weaker kid out? How would that benifit those who compete at that level? If a player is good enough, there are many international events they can travel to. (the ITU have competed in England, Belgium, France, Azerbaijan and Holland so far this year)

Clive wrote:

Just to clarify, not all WTF practitioners are affiliated to the ITU, as I'm certainly not, and know a number of others who aren't either. However the ITU is the NGB for WTF TKD recognised by the ISC.

Theres the World Taekwondo Federation, which is split into regional organisations such as the European Taekwondo Union, which in turns recognises one group per country, in Ireland this is the Irish Taekwondo Union. So anyone in Ireland who wants to grade for their WTF (i.e. Kukkiwon) black belt needs to do this through the ITU.

pma-ire

Irishkickingcat wrote:

If you train to compete you have a better chance that someone who is a slob who doesn't train at anything. If you don't train at self defence you don't have as much hope as someone who does train at self defence.

You seem to be talking about sport combat and self defence combat as two different things? If thats the case then your not really agreeing with Mark?

Irishkickingcat wrote:

In summation martial arts is not synonymous with self defence.

Indeed they are not! As they are as many and varied as the people who practice them.

mark.leonard

I know this is completely off topic re: WTF vs. ITF, but I can't resist trying to rebutt this point!

Irishkickingcat wrote:

In summation martial arts is not synonymous with self defence.

pma-ire wrote:

Indeed they are not! As they are as many and varied as the people who practice them.

If you are training in an efficient delivery system using the principles of aliveness then how you train will be applicable in whatever arena you employ it, be it the street a ring etc.

Clive

Irishkickingcat wrote:

You mentioned it was a junior tournament. This would involve less knock-outs as coachs and referrees tend to stop a match if they think one player is far superior. They want to encourage juniors to stay in the sport rather than scare them off. What would you have them do, let the stronger kid knock the weaker kid out? How would that benifit those who compete at that level? If a player is good enough, there are many international events they can travel to. (the ITU have competed in England, Belgium, France, Azerbaijan and Holland so far this year).

I am intimately familiar with WTF tournaments, both juniors and seniors. The point I was making is that ten years ago, you would have seen more knockouts in the same event.

By all means a match should be stopped (whether junior or senior) if a competitor is not defending themselves intelligently, but knockouts happen frequently, even when competitors are evenly matched. I have seen a move in recent years towards a more timid style of WTF, where people hang back, standing side on, worried about dropping points, rather than pushing the action.

Irishkickingcat wrote:

Theres the World Taekwondo Federation, which is split into regional organisations such as the European Taekwondo Union, which in turns recognises one group per country, in Ireland this is the Irish Taekwondo Union. So anyone in Ireland who wants to grade for their WTF (i.e. Kukkiwon) black belt needs to do this through the ITU.

That, however, doesn't mean that every WTF practitioner is affiliated with the ITU. There are plenty of people who were around long before the ITU hedgemony.

memphis

Sorry to stray off topic slightly, but a question for Mr Leonard.

You mentioned some time back that you are a 3rd Dan in TKD, is this not correct? As well as traning/coaching in BJJ. Do you find yourself, mixing your learnings into your own traning and teaching techniques?

Most of us just call him Mark!