Something I always wanted to know, but was afraid to ask!

phobos · 10-06-2001 7:08pm #1

Lads,

I would class myself as a intermediate web developer/programmer, and want to know the various steps that I would take to set up a web site. Now don't get me wrong I have a site online already and know how it all works and all that (hosted by my ISP) But......

Scenario
I start to work for myself creating web sites for various clients. I don't have a web server or anything, just the tools and ability to churn out sites. So lets say that client X approaches me and requires a web site. So first I would have to register a domain name (lets say X.com), how do I go about doing that, and who is the cheapest in Ireland.

Next I would have to find a company to host the site. Who do you recommend, and who is the cheapest. I need some of the sites to use Java Servlets so I would need some kind of server side interaction as opposed to static hosting (E.g. CGI bin).

After that all I have to do is create the site and FTP it to the web server (right?). Now is that the correct order to do everything or do I have it all wrong.

Any feedback would be grately appreciated!!

:-phobos-)

The Corinthian · 10-06-2001 7:27pm

Scope the project with the client and have them sign off on it first - if they want changes to the original spec later, you'll be able to charge them extra.

Register you domain online if it's a .com, .net, .org or .co.uk - joker.com or namesecure.com are good for this. .ie's are a bit more tricky and wequire you go through iedr.ie for them.

Hosting depends - shop around for prices using Google. I'd avoid Java sites as most of your clients (small businesses, I expect) won't need, or pay for, a Java based site. Code in PHP or ASP - you can churn the sites out faster.

Try to set up a staging server too if you can, not only for your clients but also for anyone else you may bring in on a project (many projects will require the services of extra skills that you may not have).

As a final note, retain full rights on your code and domani names until the client pays up. Small business will f**k you over if they think they can. And good luck.

phobos · 10-06-2001 7:44pm

Thanks M8,

That is the exact info I needed

V. Plz-ed

:-phobos-)

PS: I don't know ASP, but I do know Java. Is it more expensive to require Java enabled servers?. Has anyone had good experiences with Irish hosting companies (service/money etc). Love to hear from you...

Bard · 10-06-2001 9:35pm

Originally posted by phobos:

PS: I don't know ASP, but I do know Java. Is it more expensive to require Java enabled servers?. Has anyone had good experiences with Irish hosting companies (service/money etc). Love to hear from you...

Servers don't have to be "enabled" in any way to allow you to use Java on them (- as long as thats Java applets you mean and not JSP). It's interpreted on the client side.

I'd still avoid using Java applets though.

Bard

"Have a gorilla!" ... "No thanks, I'll have one of my monkeys, they're milder."

[This message has been edited by Bard (edited 10-06-2001).]

phobos · 11-06-2001 12:23am

NO,

By Java I mean Servlets. Lets just say that I wanted to do something like mail forms, DB interaction (remote SQL server) or even an E-commerce system.

I know that applets execute on the local VM after being download from the web server, and you are right, I don't intend on writing any of them by myself (no need / no point).

Thanx 4 da feedback

;-phobos-)

mneylon · 11-06-2001 1:55am

I don't see why you would need Java servlets for any of that.
You can do most things using PHP or CGI. If you are a bit stuck for scripts pop on over to HotScripts.com where you'll loads of really good scripts for almost every occasion. There's no need to reinvent the wheel if somebody else has already done the work for you.
Joker.com rocks! It is probably the cheapest registrar out there and very easy to use.
Hosting... depends on what you want. Don't grab the first thing that you see... there are a lot of hosting companies with a lot of different packages. Needless to say, they all would like you to believe that theirs is the best.
(If you need a LOT of webspace with lots of features let me know)

IrishSearch.net
IrishFreelance

Enygma · 11-06-2001 8:05am

Can you say 'Applets are cool' and keep a straight face?

The reason he's looking for a server with a JVM is that he already knows Java and probably couldn't be bothered learning PHP or ASP. Besides Servlets and JSP are really effective for doing what he's talking about.
I found what looks like a fairly good host at www.cqhost.com You get Servlets, JSP and a MySQL database as part of the cheapest option. Worth looking at.
It shouldn't be more expensive for a Java enabled server, but at the moment I've found that ASP is far more widespread and therefore cheaper.
I'd say in the next few months you'll see a whole load of ISPs offering Java enabled servers tho.
Maybe wise to hold on...

phobos · 11-06-2001 7:06pm

Enygma you read my mind!

That is what I have been trying to tell everyone. I know Java, are comfortable with Java, don't know ASP, PHP, CGI (don't want to either), and want to leave my server software open to what the future may bring (EJBs perhaps etc).

Cheers for the info,

;-phobos-)

mneylon · 11-06-2001 11:02pm

Point taken.
I, on the other hand, have an aversion to Java, which is why I stick with things that I have some hope of understanding :-)

IrishSearch.net
IrishFreelance

dahamsta · 22-06-2001 12:48pm

I'm with blacknight on this one, Java bites.

adam

Enygma · 22-06-2001 1:18pm

I used to think that too dahamsta, that is until I started JSP programming. The thing about Java is the initial hump, it can be difficult to understand the concepts of OOP. But once you do you'll never look back.
Java is so well suited to web application development it's almost scary. The best part about Java I think is that as soon as you've written something you can easily plug it in almost anywhere else.
Say you write a class that connects to your DB and returns a list of User Details for instance.
You can write a tag that simply imports this class and calls it's methods.

This way you're HTML developers/designers dno't even need to know any programming. They come back with something like this:

&lt;%@ taglib uri="mytaglib" prefix="tl" %&gt;
&lt;html&gt;
&lt;head&gt;
.
.
.

&lt;b&gt;Results&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;tl:LocateUsers jobTitle="developer"/&gt;
&lt;tl:Get field="name"/&gt; &lt;!-- Prints out users name --&gt;
&lt;tl:Get field="salary"/&gt; &lt;!-- Prints ou users salary

Of course you'd have to write another tag to loop over all the results, but that too would be reuseable elsewhere. The benefits of using Java as a web application development language are huge.

Anyone who's anyway serious about web development should at least take a look at some of the specs. You will be impressed.

Apparently the next versions of PHP and ASP(+) will incorporate tags too.

dahamsta · 22-06-2001 2:25pm

I used to think that too dahamsta, that is until I started JSP programming.

In all honesty, I've never touched Java, and I never will. No matter what anyone tries to tell you or me, Java is owned by Sun and always will be. Conversely, PHP is owned by PHP coders, and always will be.

The thing about Java is the initial hump, it can be difficult to understand the concepts of OOP.

I had the same problem with PHP, I could never get into OOP, primarily because my applications were never large enough; but also because I could never quite get my head around it - I couldn't comprehend the explanations, no matter how simple an OOP developer broke it down for me. Then last month I had a flash of inspiration and "got it". I still believe it's only uselful for large and complex applications though.

Java is so well suited to web application development it's almost scary.

Ditto PHP, only PHP was designed from the ground up as a web application platform by Rasmus Lerdorf. Then the engine was rewritten by Zeev Suraski and Andi Gutmans as PHP3, again from the ground. And once again as PHP4 it was completely redeveloped, again by Andi and Zeev only this time as Zend Technologies. Little history for you there.

What I like most about PHP though, is the fact that you can post pretty much anywhere with a question, and every now and then Rasmus, Zeev, Andi or one of the other developers will pop his head above the parapet and answer you. I've talked to both Rasmus and Andi, and they were both very helpful and generous with their time. I don't know if that happens with Java, but I can't see it. (It'll *never* happen with ASP.)

The best part about Java I think is that as soon as you've written something you can easily plug it in almost anywhere else. Say you write a class that connects to your DB and returns a list of User Details for instance. You can write a tag that simply imports this class and calls it's methods. This way you're HTML developers/designers dno't even need to know any programming. They come back with something like this:

<SNIP>

Same with PHP. Prepend a file to initialise the variables and you just have a different syntax:

&lt;? require "init.php"; $vars = new init(); ?&gt;
&lt;html&gt;
&lt;head&gt;
.
.
.
&lt;b&gt;Results&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;?=$vars-&gt;LocateUsers("developer")?&gt;
&lt;?=$vars-&gt;name?&gt;
&lt;?=$vars-&gt;salary?&gt;

Use auto_prepend_file in the php.ini file (or in the Apache configuration file, or at runtime in a htaccess file) and you can skip the first line.

Anyone who's anyway serious about web development should at least take a look at some of the specs. You will be impressed.

Ditto PHP.

Apparently the next versions of PHP and ASP(+) will incorporate tags too.

Who needs "tags"?

BTW, just to incense people a little more, Java bites but ASP is truly a chunk of cat caca.

Adam
/The PHP Evangelist And ASP Flamer/

Enygma · 22-06-2001 3:02pm

Some good points there.
I've done a small bit of PHP coding in my time and I have to say I was impressed but I never really bothered with it for some reason.

I can't understand why you won't use Java simply because it's owned by Sun. They *do* actually listen to their users. Just recently they added two new features to Java that the developers were crying out for; Generics and Assertions. There's also a huge community of Java developers over at http://developer.java.sun.com granted it doesn't seem to have a grassroots following like Perl or PHP but there is still a huge community of people willing to help each other out.

Who needs "tags"?

Everyone! Tags make it simple for anyone who has any basic knowledge of HTML to build a dynamic application. Take a look at http://www.jivesoftware.com and http://www.coolservlets.com/jive/docs/taglibs/jivetags.html

Here's a sample of the Jive tags that is used to print out the name of a thread and the number of replies it has.

&lt;%-- Display information about current thread. --%&gt;
&lt;jf:thread id="ct"&gt;
 &lt;jsp:getProperty name="ct" property="name"/&gt;,
 &lt;jsp:getProperty name="ct" property="messagereplies"/&gt; replies
 &lt;br&gt;
&lt;/jf:thread&gt;

You can see straight away how powerful it can be. Unlike UBB you're not tied to the basic design of the board (although there are defaults if you want). You can basically design the pages and stick in the tags that perform all the dynamic stuff where-ever you want them.

Tags can be as complex or as simple as you want them to be. From outputting a variable to transforming XML from a database into a PDF.

BTW, just to incense people a little more, Java bites but ASP is truly a chunk of cat caca.

Hehe, true, so true.
/me shudders when the letters ASP are uttered.

mewso · 22-06-2001 3:40pm

The arrogance here is absolutely astounding. I develop with ASP/databases here at work and find it an excellent solution for what is needed.
I've taught myself php/mysql, javascript, css and intend to improve my php knowledge and when I have the time learn more about Java. To say one technology is great and another bites (theres 4 letters that make me shudder, why do Irish nerds love to use american slang) is pure arrogance.
And to address the ASP is a chunk of caca:
ASP is a simple easy to learn web programming method, can be setup & experimented with by any home Win98 user with ease, uses a good, functional method for database access (ADO) and for Intranet development in particular is a great option.
PHP is another excellent open source option which is cheap and has great database option with mysql for example. It is open source which is great but some will find it difficult to setup on a win32 machine for example if that was the only option. And I mean for someone with little experience.
JSP/Java is an option I have not investigated much so I won't presume to call it caca or anything else.

Enygma · 22-06-2001 4:29pm

How come every time someone says ASP/VB is crap someone comes along going on about arrogance? Are all VB developers that uptight? (token smiley face

I'm taking the p*ss)

Look, I didn't intend to come across as arrogant and I'm sure Adam didn't either. Both of us were just having a poke at ASP.
I've developed with ASP too, and to be honest I really don't like it at all, and I have come to the point where if someone asks me to work on an ASP project I *do* shudder (Wasn't aware that was American slang btw).

I simply prefer Java as a language over VB, that's all. Adam simply prefers PHP. Both of us dislike ASP for various reasons, it;s got nothing to do with arrogance.

So calm down

dahamsta · 22-06-2001 4:31pm

Some good points there.

Why thank yuh kind suh. Unusual for me not to be flamed immediately. I must be getting loose in my old age. So to speak.

I've done a small bit of PHP coding in my time and I have to say I was impressed but I never really bothered with it for some reason.

Errah, people are always like that with programming languages. I was the same with OOP in general - anytime I looked at it I thought it was cool and something I'd like to understand, but complete overkill for my needs, so I never bothered. Now I'm coding bigger apps that handle whole sites, so I had to figure it out, and I have to admit it comes in handy for certain applications.

I was kind of the same with PHP actually - I came from teaching myself Perl, heard a lot about PHP and wanted to try it because of the apparent ease of working with databases (which I couldn't do in Perl cos I wasn't into classes!). The first time I tried it, I went running back to Perl with my tail between my legs. But the second time I took a run at it and I never looked back. I still hack a little Perl, but at this stage I even use PHP for shell scripting!

I have a little nugget I always end up telling people about PHP when I'm trying to convince them how nifty it is. That's simply the nl2br() function, which converts newlines into HTML tags. I mean, how cool is it that the developers thought to themselves: "Yeah, that's handy, fire it in."

Another later example is wordwrap(), which wraps blocks of text to a length defined in the function argument. What's interesting about that is that it originally came from a user-defined function in Phorum, a popular web forum application. Someone ported it to a native function and threw it into the API. I think that's really cool.

I can't understand why you won't use Java simply because it's owned by Sun. They *do* actually listen to their users. Just recently they added two new features to Java that the developers were crying out for; Generics and Assertions.

For the reasons stated above mostly. The PHP developers are genuinely very innovative people, and more importantly they're a nice bunch of people who develop PHP in their spare time. Not because a company pays and orders them to do it, but because they want to, because they love doing it. That's a big difference for a start.

There's other reasons though. For a start, the Sun Community Licence is too restrictive. The PHP licence can be too, but it's far more open than the Java one. Also, Java is too bloody big.

There's also a huge community of Java developers over at developer.java.sun.com granted it doesn't seem to have a grassroots following like Perl or PHP but there is still a huge community of people willing to help each other out.

I agree, the Java community is pretty good, and supportive, but it doesn't shake a stick at the PHP and Perl communities. Again, to use a personal example, I started out learning Perl by downloading programs and installing them on my sites. Then I found Gossamer Threads, which has one of the richest Perl communities around. I started out by asking questions there, and ended up answering them. Even today, when I hardly use Perl at all, I still pop in to the GT forums to see if there's anything I can help with.

The same happened with PHP, I found a great community on phpbuilder.com, and asked so many questions people must've thought I was a complete moron. But they didn't treat me like that, they treated me with respect and patience, and I ended up being one of three regulars on the forums, working alongside Jesus M. Castagnetto, the guy who wrote Professional PHP Programming. He referred questions on Apache to me, because I was better with Apache. That gave me such a buzz.

Who needs "tags"?

Everyone!

See, I don't see it meself. You can do the exact same thing in PHP, or mod_perl, or ASP, or pretty much any runtime interpreted language. It's just a matter of syntax. And if PHP tags are giving you trouble - they won't - you can use ASP tags if you want. And if that won't do, you can hack the PHP source code and define what you bloody well want!

/me shudders when the letters ASP are uttered.

Heh heh, there's a few hardcore ASP coders on here, you'd want to watch your back.

adam

dahamsta · 22-06-2001 4:51pm

The arrogance here is absolutely astounding.

Ah, I knew 'twas only a matter of time! Bard'll be along in a minute to whup my chunky butt...

To say one technology is great and another bites (theres 4 letters that make me shudder, why do Irish nerds love to use american slang) is pure arrogance.

No it's not, it's opinion. I don't like soup, and when I have dinner with someone and I'm offered soup I tell them that. If they ask why I don't like soup, I explain why. They don't jump down my throat, they accept it and don't offer me soup any more. They might think I'm a loony, they might even think I'm wrong ("you might like it if you tried it"), but that doesn't stop me not liking soup. Can't I just be left alone to not be partial to Cream of Tomato?

PHP is another excellent open source option which is cheap and has great database option with mysql for example.

'Snot cheap, it's free.

It is open source which is great but some will find it difficult to setup on a win32 machine for example if that was the only option.

PHP comes with a Windows installer which is excellent, if not better than a lot of other Win32 applications. It also configures itself automatically to run with a large number of web servers, including, but not limited to: PWS, IIS and Apache. Apache also comes with an excellent installer. I should also point out that Apache is one of[1] the most secure web server applications available today. You can hardly say that about IIS, another Windows technology that people get righteously indignant about when you point out what a heap of carp (sic) it is.

JSP/Java is an option I have not investigated much so I won't presume to call it caca or anything else.

Java/JSP is cool, I just don't like it personally. Ditto ASP, except for the cool part. But again, as I seem to have to continually point out on web forums and mailing lists alike, that's my opinion. You like it, so use it, I'm not stopping you, am I?

adam

[1] Note the "one of", person who flamed me on this before, without regard to the fact that I wasn't talking about SSL.

Enygma · 22-06-2001 9:18pm

dahamsta, just noticed you're the guy from iewebs, I was onto you about a job before! Never realised it was you.
Don't worry I've got a job now, I'll stop pestering you

podgeen · 22-06-2001 11:52pm

lads ye might be able to help me with something... would ye take a look at

http://www.boards.ie/bulletin/Forum19/HTML/000219.html

cheers

mewso · 24-06-2001 12:07am

Well you guys are quick to jump down MY throat

I was nto saying you aren't entitled to your opinion. Heaven forfend. I was saying that even if I don't like a certain web technology I won't say it is caca because I know that they all have their strengths in different areas. I don't know enough, never will to diss one technology. If I don't like something it tends to be because it didn't serve my purpose whereas if it had I'd probably be singing it's praises. But of course you are entitled to your all knowing opinion

dahamsta · 24-06-2001 1:11am

dahamsta, just noticed you're the guy from iewebs, I was onto you about a job before! Never realised it was you.
Don't worry I've got a job now, I'll stop pestering you

I hope you were one of the ones that included an email address in your cover and/or CV. You wouldn't believe the amount of people who come looking for a job without putting an email address down. Some designers don't include a link to their portfolios either. I have a special bin for them right beside me here.

musician, I wasn't jumping down your throat, honest, I was just explaining. Me, I just don't like ASP mostly because it's M$, which says a lot about my reasoning. I'm one of those annoying open source advocates, and I always will be. Personally, I think of it as seeing the light.

adam

Nietzschean · 24-06-2001 11:21pm

"I'm one of those annoying open source advocates" - yeah thats lovely to be most of us are...but like ye have to face facts there isn't enough money in open source...never will be....so no matter what happens ms will be able to churn out the best OS/programming lang for its purposes.
where they maybe flawed (and ****e) that is all intended unlike opensource ms has to sell more so well they just give a little with each new os..but me main point is you can't despise a lang cause ms made it....ms probally made the OS you are on now and well like everything else money drives the world, college students can only do so much ms will rip off any open source project n just make a few additions n make billion's.So not supporting there langs really has no impact with anything..if anything it makes your life harder. ms programs r dumb **** friendly so everything is extreemly easy...so even if yer ****ed writing a full asp program is easy (i've tested this),,basically no matter what ms or someone else will be there...they will grow its unavoidable..ye might aswell use some of what they have created that will actually make your life easier..

mewso · 25-06-2001 1:35pm

Alot of good points that I have very little problem with there but... theres always a but

Originally posted by dahamsta:
It's the Ladybird book of programming languages.

This kind prooves my earlier point of arrogance. Now don't think arrogance is always a bad thing but I think you dislike ASP because it's **** easy. I appreciate that it's easy. On our intranet at work (oh and by the way I have taken the risk of running it on an NT Server for the last year without any problems at all) where speed will not be a serious issue ASP is a great solution. I have never tried Linux but would like to some day because I'm all for open source programs and I know and respect plenty of people that use and advocate it. The problem is that at work where nobodys going to be anymore impressed if I create an intranet with a string and several ascii files and some pliars or with ASP I'll go with the easy solution and use that horrible ladybird vbscript. I won't turn my nose up at ASP because it's easy. I want to get the job done and working. O.k. so you don't hate it purely because it's an MS technology but you do to a point. I will always grudgingly admit it when the evil empire creates a good product. I've always thought MS Access for example was a great product for the home/small business user. They do produce some worthy products like it or not.

Enygma · 25-06-2001 3:04pm

SerialKiller that's like saying you should all eat in McDonalds because they make money.

swap:
open source -> small time chipper
Microsoft -> McDonalds
software -> food

"I'm one of those annoying small time chipper advocates" - yeah thats lovely to be most of us are...but like ye have to face facts there isn't enough money in small time chippers...never will be....so no matter what happens McDonalds will be able to churn out the best food for its purposes.
where they maybe measly portions (and taste like****e) that is all intended unlike small time chippers McDonalds has to sell more so well they just give a little with each new Happy Meal..but me main point is you can't despise food cause McDonalds made it....McDonalds probally made the dinner you had last night and well like everything else money drives the world, college students can only do so much McDonalds will rip off any small time chippers recipes n just make a few additions n make billion's.So not supporting there food really has no impact with anything..if anything it makes your life harder. McDonalds food is always the same so everything is extreemly easy...so even if yer ****ed ordering a Big Mac meal is easy (i've tested this),,basically no matter what McDonalds or someone else will be there...they will grow its unavoidable..ye might aswell eat all your dinners there that will actually make your life easier..

Drive a Harley, drink Coke and Jack Danials, wear Levis, smoke marlboro and light them with a zippo. Eat at McDonalds and have a Bud afterwards. Wear cowboy boots. Be a consumer! It's safe in here.

teac! · 25-06-2001 4:45pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:
If you're talking about ASP, I don't despise it just because M$ made it, my primary reason is that's it's a chunk of cat caca, as previously mentioned. It's the Ladybird book of programming languages.

Um, VBScript/JScript are the languages (Even PERL can be done in ASP). ASP is actually pretty nice and one of the more redeeming features of IIS (I say this as an IIS hater)

Apache has a mod_asp module, but it only supports PERL. Do you despise people who write CGI scripts in PERL? ASP is a technology for embedding scripts in HTML pages, much like SSI's or even CGI's for that matter.

Your little baby, PHP, is a ladybird book of programming languages. It has one huge API (and you cursed Java for the same reason, although Java is much more extensive, but then again, Java is a much more purposeful language. By that I mean, it's not just a Web scripting language), it's VERY easy to pick up, and even compared to something like PERL, it's easy.

Y'see Adam, ya can't just promote PHP's ease of use in one scenario and then come along and diss another language for the same reason, although if you meant something else by "Ladybird book" of programming languages, I'm obviously talking crap here

Phil.

dahamsta · 25-06-2001 6:20pm

I prepared a fairly lengthy response to musician's comments this morning. Then I realised I was still fairly locked from last night and talking garbage - well, more so than usual - so I'll try and keep it short this time.

This kind prooves my earlier point of arrogance.

Nobosy seems to be able to pick up on this - I'm not being arrogant, I'm expressing an opinion. I don't like ASP, you do. That shouldn't be seen as arrogance, it should be seen as a difference of opinion.

I will always grudgingly admit it when the evil empire creates a good product.

So will I. That doesn't mean I have to use it though. And I won't, because they are an evil empire. They're anti-competitive and the management are a right nasty bunch. That's why I discount them and try and get people to at least be aware of the alternatives.

Do you despise people who write CGI scripts in PERL?

What's that got to do with the price of eggs? You can't compare ASP and Perl. Ok, Perl's licence isn't the best open source licence in the world, but apart from that I can't see where you're going with this?

It has one huge API

It only has a huge API if you compile it with lots of add-ons.

and you cursed Java for the same reason

Actually I didn't, I said Java was huge. What is it now, 40 or fifty megs?

By that I mean, it's not just a Web scripting language

Exactly! PHP was developed from the ground up as a web scripting language. That's the whole point of PHP!

Y'see Adam, ya can't just promote PHP's ease of use in one scenario and then come along and diss another language for the same reason

Ah, caught! But again, my point wasn't that PHP is the be-all and end-all of programming languages. It isn't, it's just suited to its task. My point was that ASP was a chunk of carp. You mightn't think it's a chunk of carp, and others mightn't, but I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Hell, use whatcha like, I don't care!

adam

dahamsta · 25-06-2001 11:03pm

"I'm one of those annoying open source advocates" - yeah thats lovely to be most of us are...but like ye have to face facts there isn't enough money in open source...never will be....

Uh, hello? Pop Quiz: In the midst of all the profit warnings and dot.bombs of late, which company just announced its first profit? Which company had revenues of $25.6 million? Which company had gross margins of 47-57%? Which company has $300 million cash-in-hand? Which company has two years straight of meeting or beating market analyst predictions? Answer to all of the above: Red Hat.

But that's just a company. How about the people who release their software as open source? Here's three examples: Linus Torvalds works for Transmeta. Alan Cox works for Red Hat. Phil Zimmerman works for Hush Communications. All three make a bloody fortune for what little time they can contribute to the companies.

Microsoft are modelling their whole "next generation" - .NET - around open source, i.e. selling software as a service, not as a product. No money in open source? You gotta be kidding me.

so no matter what happens ms will be able to churn out the best OS/programming lang for its purposes.

On the desktop, there's no question that Windows is the best for usability, but Linux distros like Mandrake are catching up quick. Very quick. On the server, there's no question, I wouldn't use Windows if you paid me too. It's not worth the risk. I genuinely can't understand why anyone would run Windows on a server. As to programming languages, well, you just need to look around.

me main point is you can't despise a lang cause ms made it

If you're talking about ASP, I don't despise it just because M$ made it, my primary reason is that's it's a chunk of cat caca, as previously mentioned. It's the Ladybird book of programming languages.

ms probally made the OS you are on now

No, that would be MandrakeSoft. The server next to me is running Red Hat 7.0, the laptop next to me is running LinuxPPC (it's a PowerBook), my primary US machine is also running Red Hat 7.0, my secondary US machine is running Red Hat 6.0, and my primary client machine in the UK is running Cobalt OS. Which just happens to be Red Hat. Sorry.

ms will rip off any open source project n just make a few additions n make billion's.

M$ can only rip off software released under a BSD-style licence, like the Berkeley TCP/IP stack that remains in Windows since the very start. That's why they're attacking GPL licenced software at the moment - they can't use it because if they use something that's GPL'd, they have to release that under the GPL too. And note that they are attacking, which means they're scared. If they weren't scared, they'd just ignore Stallman and Raymond the rest of them.

So not supporting there langs really has no impact with anything..if anything it makes your life harder.

Harder? How do you figure that one out? PHP has a magnificent and brilliantly documented API. Ditto Perl. You think not being able to point-and-click makes life harder? No, it just makes me a better coder.

ye might aswell use some of what they have created that will actually make your life easier..

An easier life to me is being able to hack the source code of something to make it better. That makes my job easier.

adam

teac! · 26-06-2001 8:34am

My main point was ASP isn't the language, it's the implementation of a language to form an embedded HTML page, hence my statement "Do you have a problem with people who write CGI scripts in PERL?", considering ASP can also be implemented in PERL as well as VBScript/JScript.

The JVM is around 10-15 megs.

I don't use ASP, considering the best place to implement it is on a Windows platform.
Phil.

Bard · 30-06-2001 5:34pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:
Ah, I knew 'twas only a matter of time! Bard'll be along in a minute to whup my chunky butt...

I thought about it... then I read the rest of the thread and thought "why bother?"...

Personally I use a healthy mix of ASP (with VBScript), HTML, DHTML, JavaScript, Access/SQL to build the sites I work on. Yes, that usually means relying on a Microsoft solution, but that's not always a bad thing.

I find ASP quite good. To each their own, as they say.

Bard

Vidi, Vici, Veni.

dahamsta · 30-06-2001 7:50pm

To each their own, as they say.

Indeed. And to each the option of calling the other a chunk of cat caca, no? Free expression is a great thing.

adam

Bard · 30-06-2001 8:56pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:
Indeed. And to each the option of calling the other a chunk of cat caca, no?

Absolutely... you may not be right

... but in your eyes you are, and as everyone's perfectly entitled to their own opinion, that's really what counts.

Free expression is a great thing.

adam

Isn't it one of the basic Human Rights? Is it a constitutional right? Either way... s'great, aye

Bard

Vidi, Vici, Veni.

dahamsta · 30-06-2001 9:57pm

Isn't it one of the basic Human Rights? Is it a constitutional right?

Yip. Article 40.

6. 1° The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:

i. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.

adam

phobos · 04-07-2001 5:04am

K,

I personally don't favour or think that any language or technique is better than another. Every developer has their own opinion based on experience. As I pointed out earlier on this thread, Java is my web language of choice. My reason's for choosing Java is because

A) It's relatively NEW

Plenty of jobs for Java coders
C) Performance, Scalability, Maintainability all encourage my interest in it.

I have had a little experiece with ASP on IIS. It was quick, easy and did the job. So I am not going to complain. But I still prefer Java for the above 3 reasons.

Everyone has their own opinions, which are primarily based on "their" past experiences. I respect that, as do I expect you to respect mine.

;-phobos-)

Something I always wanted to know, but was afraid to ask!

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