Martin McGuiness Tells McCartney Sisters "careful now"

mike65

Mcguinness Issues Warning to Murdered Man's Family By Alan Erwin, PA

Sinn Fein chief Martin McGuinness tonight warned the family of IRA murder victim Robert McCartney to back off.

With one of the sisters threatening an electoral challenge to the party, the Mid Ulster MP claimed the campaign to bring the killers to justice could be left open to political manipulation.

They could risk popular support, he told the family.

Clearly rattled by the intensity of the crisis engulfing Sinn Fein, Mr McGuinness said: “The McCartneys need to be very careful.

“To step over that line, which is a very important line, into the world of party political politics, can do a huge disservice to their campaign.

“In fact, it can dismay and disillusion an awful lot of people, tens of thousands of people who support them in their just demands.”

Mr McCartney’s five sisters and fiancee are travelling to Washington as part of their fight to get the killers into court.

Or translated - "Get Your Tanks Off My Lawn or Else!"

Mike.

lomb

yep, i think SF are getting very scared now..

AmenToThat

About time in my opinion.
There campaign against SF is turning from one of justice(which they most certainly deserve) to one of vengence.
SF has done everything (admittedly was forced kick and screaming) to appease to McCartney sisters and persuad those who were involved to come forward.
If witnesses refuse to 'shop' people they have know all their lives or indeed may be related to or are afraid to because of threats from those involved then what are SF to do, as physical force is out of the question.

OfflerCrocGod

"Careful now"......or something could happen to you. I hope they do try and take on SF and paste the ******* in the elections, one can hope.


edit: keep the language civil, it doesn't aid discussion.

FX Meister

AmenToThat wrote:

About time in my opinion.
There campaign against SF is turning from one of justice(which they most certainly deserve) to one of vengence.
SF has done everything (admittedly was forced kick and screaming) to appease to McCartney sisters and persuad those who were involved to come forward.
If witnesses refuse to 'shop' people they have know all their lives or indeed may be related to or are afraid to because of threats from those involved then what are SF to do, as physical force is out of the question.

Well they have had no problem sorting out witnesses when it suits them.

flogen

The party are sure to be scared, no one can challenge Sinn Fein in their grassroots areas, but if it's going to happen it will be this family (given that they come from a pro-SF background but are now critical of it).

I'm not sure what McGuinness is trying to say here if it isn't "be careful what you do, you don't know who's watching". Is he trying to say that by running against Adams they might lose support?

As for this turning into a campaign of vengence, it is in a way, but only because SF are dragging their heels and stopping justice. I think the McCartneys have a right to be angry at them, and have a right to challenge them on it.

flogen

mycroft

AmenToThat wrote:

About time in my opinion.
There campaign against SF is turning from one of justice(which they most certainly deserve) to one of vengence.
SF has done everything (admittedly was forced kick and screaming) to appease to McCartney sisters and persuad those who were involved to come forward.
If witnesses refuse to 'shop' people they have know all their lives or indeed may be related to or are afraid to because of threats from those involved then what are SF to do, as physical force is out of the question.

Honestly I think McGuinness, Adams, and the IRA council are going to need surgery to get their feet out of their mouth.

SF have done FA. In the timespan post christmas, senior SF members have declined to declare a woman, Jean Mc Conville, a crime, because she was a tout.

Theres 30 years of IRA enforced silence, and the IRA and SF where pushed into this begruging level of co-operation. Meanwhile the family of the Mc Carthys are fighting SF and IRA intimidation on every level.

They endured a 5 hour meeting with the IRA where I sumbit the IRA "pressed " the family to go ahead with their shooting idea, which to me would have meant the family adhere to the IRA community policing policy of the last thirty years. The family rejected IRA vengance (and one can wonder how pressed the family where pushed towards the IRA's prefered course of action during the 5 hours)

The family have adhered a campaign of denial, grudging level of co-operation and finally threats of intimidation.

Hey, Mc Guinness newsflash. Stop implying a family shouldn't interver with politics. Politics is us, politics is the people, politics are what matters to us.

A politician doesn't tell us what matters, WE TELL THEM. They're our representives. They do what we ask.

I'm DAMN sick of Sinn Fein, pretending to be anti the Iraq war, but meeting with Bush, because "the peace process is more important. Voting for privatisation of Nth hospitials to secure the Good Friday agreement, despite it being a party pledge at election. .

I'm damn tired of SF pretending to put the peace process first, when they're happy to intimidate the families of a murdered man, and sell out the ideals cause they need to save the peace process.

But at the end of day, who are SF steamrolling over, to "save the peace process" and then, who are SF fighting for.

Villain

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

SF and paste the ******* in the elections

Another great post by you that I had to report :rolleyes:

BuffyBot

You know, they really should just say nothing at all if they aren't going to say something constructive..they're just making themselves look worried now! Another own goal it would seem...

Lemming

BuffyBot wrote:

they're just making themselves look worried now!

They're already worried. They've just been locked out of official functions in the US by order of the White House, a prominent Irish-American politician has declined to meet them for an arranged meeting, Adams (their poster-boy for US funding campaigns) has been told not to even bother applying for a visa which would permit such campaigns, and what is regarded as the most supporting politician in the US towards SF has openly questioned the continued existance of the IRA in government session.

That's a lot of funding that's abotu to disappear.

On top of that, the McCartney sisters are getting a lot of press in the US. And a lot of people are very interested to hear what they have to say ......

billy the squid

quick question if you will

I know they has some sort of PR system for elections for the northern Ireland assembly, but are they using the same system for westminster elections or are they using the First-past-the-post system like the rest of the UK?

If it is the latter any mccartney candidate taking votes from adadams could cost adams the seat, even if neither of them were to be elected.

AmenToThat

BuffyBot wrote:

You know, they really should just say nothing at all if they aren't going to say something constructive..they're just making themselves look worried now! Another own goal it would seem...

I dont agree.
They are getting cruxified anyways so I think its time they came out fighting.
This has been a one sided debate with allegation after allegation (admittidly lots of them with elements of truth) but many purely media or politically driven.
SF has done about as much as it legally can (after continues prompting and pressure) in this case yet the political parties continue to demand more and the McCartheys continually demand justice, a justice that SF cannot legally deliver.
The McCartheys themselves are now turning this into a political football and if thats the case then SF are entitled to respond in kind.

AmenToThat

billy the squid wrote:

quick question if you will

I know they has some sort of PR system for elections for the northern Ireland assembly, but are they using the same system for westminster elections or are they using the First-past-the-post system like the rest of the UK?

If it is the latter any mccartney candidate taking votes from adadams could cost adams the seat, even if neither of them were to be elected.

Could well let one of those lovely DUP men in.
If that were the case I think the McCartheys would loose alot of the good will among the community that is there now.
Of course the DUP/UUP candidates in the area as well as the SDLP candidate in the area might step aside and encourage voters to vote for the McCarthey's which again I think will not sit well with many people in west Belfast where support for SF is still extremely strong.

billy the squid

I was thinking along the same lines. while it is plausible that the SDLP candidate might step aside in favour of a mccartney candidate, I could only see the DUP taking advantage of the split in the republican vote, and running against a SF and a McCartney candidate.

maybe Martin McGuiness is more scared of the constituence falling to the unionists than he is of Gerry Adams losing his seat, Although if Adams were to lose his seat, it would be a blow to the morale of Sinn Fein.

Lemming

AmenToThat wrote:

I dont agree.
They are getting cruxified anyways so I think its time they came out fighting.
This has been a one sided debate with allegation after allegation (admittidly lots of them with elements of truth) but many purely media or politically driven.
SF has done about as much as it legally can (after continues prompting and pressure) in this case yet the political parties continue to demand more and the McCartheys continually demand justice, a justice that SF cannot legally deliver.

To be honest, SF have already tried to 'come out fighting' and only managed to shoot themselves in every single toe on both feet. They seem to have lost the plot completely. Every time Adams or McGuinness has said for people to step forth, the behaviour of their own party members smacks squarely between the eyes as a damning indictment of just how cynical a game they are playing. And getting caught out into the process. They then stop short of urging people to go to law enforcement agencies and then bring forth an offer by the IRA to have the people involved executed.

"Sure what do you need the police for? Wont we just shoot them for you?"

Not exactly fighting fit and sitting pretty is it?

To add to those woes, their biggest political fundraising cash-cow has finally decided to lose patience with them and they are effectively having the door slammed in their face across the atlantic. No money ... no fun.

Realistically, they can't come out fighting in any reasonable shape or form because they've not only been backed into a corner of their own design but they are being beaten with their own stick. And they know it. No matter which way they try to turn in an attempt to focus, another issue is going to knife them in the back. They are literally being encircled by their own chickens coming home to roost.

AmenToThat

Lemming wrote:

To be honest, SF have already tried to 'come out fighting' and only managed to shoot themselves in every single toe on both feet. They seem to have lost the plot completely. Every time Adams or McGuinness has said for people to step forth, the behaviour of their own party members.

SOME of their own party members in a small area of Belfast, hardly constitutes 'their own party'.
Seems to me you are swallowing the media line hook line and sinker.

Lemming wrote:

smacks squarely between the eyes as a damning indictment of just how cynical a game they are playing.

Ill certainly agree that at the start SF tried to play the whole thing down which was wrong in itself but I now believe they are actually trying their best to resolve the issue uinlike just about every other party on this island which is cynically using this issue for their own ends and couldnt give a toss about the suffering of the McCarthey family.

Lemming wrote:

And getting caught out into the process. They then stop short of urging people to go to law enforcement agencies and then bring forth an offer by the IRA to have the people involved executed.

Now your simply resorting to telling lies.
SF never offered to have the IRA execute anyone. The offer was made personally by the IRA in a meeting with the McCartney sisters.

Lemming wrote:

To add to those woes, their biggest political fundraising cash-cow has finally decided to lose patience with them and they are effectively having the door slammed in their face across the atlantic. No money ... no fun.

While its true that 'Washington' has deserted (short term) SF to say that their support base within north America has as well simply isnt true.
Sure people are concerned, so am I!
This is not a good situation.
But thats a very different thing that deserting something you believe in. BTW just because officially they arent allowed raise funds hasnt stop SF before something I have no problem with and no problem saying on this forum no matter who posts in reply pretend shock and outrage for my condoning an illegal action.

Lemming wrote:

Realistically, they can't come out fighting in any reasonable shape or form because they've not only been backed into a corner of their own design but they are being beaten with their own stick. And they know it. No matter which way they try to turn in an attempt to focus, another issue is going to knife them in the back. They are literally being encircled by their own chickens coming home to roost.

SF have until now been reacting to situations and I believe thats their mistake.
Its time to be proactive in my view.
Long term the IRA have to go its as simple as that but short term I believe the first mistake the McCarthneys are going to make is by meeting that war criminal Bush and the photo opportunity and sound bite that will be offered at the press conference.
This will I believe be an opportunity for SF to become proactive.

BTW before the boards.ie nuts all jump down my throat I want to see the killers brought to justice but I believe the McCarthneys are now playing a political game and making 'clouded' demands of the Republican movement that simply can not be met legally by SF.

AmenToThat

flogen wrote:

As for this turning into a campaign of vengence, it is in a way, but only because SF are dragging their heels and stopping justice. I think the McCartneys have a right to be angry at them, and have a right to challenge them on it.

flogen

Hey of it was one of mine that was murdered I wouldnt be waiting for the courts to resolve the issue Id be after the bastards with a gun myself and so I can completely understand why the McCartheys are doing this.
I just think now they are starting to try to demonize the whole Republican movement whom untill their brother was murdered they supported wholeheartedly.
Intimidation had been going on in that area for years, they knew all about it but still stood behind the ideals of the republican movement.
The bar was a well known drinking hole for this particularly unsavoury unit of the IRA yet Robert McCartney had no problems drinking along side these men it would appear, unless he was unaware of their activities?
Personally I doubt this is the case.

So while I personally agree with their need for justice against the animals who did this I have no sympathy with their attempts to demonize the whole of Republicanism in an attempt to bring the killers to court.

Hobbes

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

"Careful now"......or something could happen to you. I hope they do try and take on SF and paste the bastards in the elections, one can hope.

He was referring to being politically manipulated. Anyone trying to spin it as a threat on thier person is a fricken idiot.

Lemming

AmenToThat wrote:

SOME of their own party members in a small area of Belfast, hardly constitutes 'their own party'.
Seems to me you are swallowing the media line hook line and sinker.

Not really. If they're so disciplined a party/force/insert term of choice why is this going on? The problem is that 'the party' appears to be moving at complete odds to what Adams has been saying/asking of them.

I believe the term is "Say one thing, do another". Those few people are members of SF and indeed some are not only just members but actual political figures.

Ill certainly agree that at the start SF tried to play the whole thing down which was wrong in itself but I now believe they are actually trying their best to resolve the issue uinlike just about every other party on this island which is cynically using this issue for their own ends and couldnt give a toss about the suffering of the McCarthey family.

Have you ever considered the fact that about every other party has quite simply had enough of SF/IRA being given exception to the rule of law and pandered to at every opportunity when they throw a trantrum for not getting their way and generally being indulged like a spoilt little brat? If they want to engage in politics then they have to be accountable like everyone else.

For me, the McCartney murder simply underscores the desperate need to break SF/IRA's back, so to speak, for the good of this island & it's population. Enough is enough. I would imagine a great deal many other people feel the same way, including politicians.

Now your simply resorting to telling lies.
SF never offered to have the IRA execute anyone. The offer was made personally by the IRA in a meeting with the McCartney sisters.

And who provided the front for the meeting? Who set it up and acted as facilitator? SF possibly? The political wing of the IRA? AKA SF

ANd in any case, if you read what I had written, I did not say that SF had the IRA offer to execute people. I said that SF presented the IRA's offer to execute people. There is a rather large difference between the two sentences.

While its true that 'Washington' has deserted (short term) SF to say that their support base within north America has as well simply isnt true.

At political level it has. Also given that the US would appear to be heavily media-led and the fact that the McCartney family are being given heavy coverage that is going to have an adverse affect on SF/IRA's US support base. Maybe not today, but it will at least plant the seeds of doubt. From there it's all downhill.

And you are also overlooking one thing. With Bush running rapidly out of patience with them, all he has to do is have them put on the list of blacklisted organisations and it's goodbye USA for the rest of time.

But thats a very different thing that deserting something you believe in.

Well that's just it. Most of the US support base would, if I might hazard a guess, have fairytale romantic notions of what the IRA is up to, rather than genuinely believe in "the cause". Having ones eyes opened can be quite detremental to fairytales.

BTW just because officially they arent allowed raise funds hasnt stop SF before something I have no problem with and no problem saying on this forum no matter who posts in reply pretend shock and outrage for my condoning an illegal action.

And it's opinions like that which are your [SF/IRA] own worst enemy and precisely the reason why everyone is turning on them. And about time too. What do you think is going to happen if Bush declares SF/IRA a blacklisted organisation? US funding *is* going to halt. Fairly quickly too in fact.

SF have until now been reacting to situations and I believe thats their mistake.
Its time to be proactive in my view.

You'll be waiting a while. SF/IRA have *never* been pro-active. Everything they do is in response to someone else prodding them.

Long term the IRA have to go its as simple as that but short term I believe the first mistake the McCarthneys are going to make is by meeting that war criminal Bush and the photo opportunity and sound bite that will be offered at the press conference.
This will I believe be an opportunity for SF to become proactive.

To quote someone else recently:

Seems to me you are swallowing the media line hook line and sinker.

Change media to "McGuinness". I think you are quite, quite mistaken in that regard. McGuiness basically implied a threat the family to shut up or else. Everyone else saw it. Why can't you?

BTW before the boards.ie nuts all jump down my throat I want to see the killers brought to justice but I believe the McCarthneys are now playing a political game and making 'clouded' demands of the Republican movement that simply can not be met legally by SF.

Well, they can be legally met by SF. All SF have to say is "please report what you saw to the police" publically. How hard is that?

If you want to see the killers brought to justice then I suggest you canvass your local SF representatives to demand the party makes that public statement I mentioned above. Otherwise, it's the usual platitudes of "say one thing, do another". The SF/IRA status-quo if I'm not mistaken.

jman0

Lemming wrote:

For me, the McCartney murder simply underscores the desperate need to break SF/IRA's back, so to speak, for the good of this island & it's population. Enough is enough. I would imagine a great deal many other people feel the same way, including politicians.

So you say, and maybe it's tru but it apparently hasn't affected SF electorally, as they gained in the latest By-Election.

Lemming wrote:

And who provided the front for the meeting? Who set it up and acted as facilitator? SF possibly? The political wing of the IRA? AKA SF.

Possibly a member of the clergy, something they've traditionally done in NI. I suppose that would make the Catholic church in league with IRA right?
By the way, do you have some sort of proof of your claim?

Lemming wrote:

And you are also overlooking one thing. With Bush running rapidly out of patience with them, all he has to do is have them put on the list of blacklisted organisations and it's goodbye USA for the rest of time.
Well that's just it. Most of the US support base would, if I might hazard a guess, have fairytale romantic notions of what the IRA is up to, rather than genuinely believe in "the cause". Having ones eyes opened can be quite detremental to fairytales..
And it's opinions like that which are your [SF/IRA] own worst enemy and precisely the reason why everyone is turning on them. And about time too. What do you think is going to happen if Bush declares SF/IRA a blacklisted organisation? US funding *is* going to halt. Fairly quickly too in fact.

This is a storm in a tea cup compared to the Thatcher years when the IRA were labeled criminals and worst yet.... Marxist! And in league with Libya.
If you think the heat is on now, you should have been around in the 80's mate. They banned SF from airwaves for what, 20+years yet it didn't erode their electoral mandate then, what can the powers-that-be possibly do today? Besides a Shoot-to-Kill policy i mean.

The Corinthian

mycroft wrote:

Theres 30 years of IRA enforced silence, and the IRA and SF where pushed into this begruging level of co-operation.

The paractice of 'honourable' silence is called omerta.

BuffyBot

Ill certainly agree that at the start SF tried to play the whole thing down which was wrong in itself but I now believe they are actually trying their best to resolve the issue uinlike just about every other party on this island which is cynically using this issue for their own ends and couldnt give a toss about the suffering of the McCarthey family.

Do enlighten us as you how you feel the other parties are using the McCartney murder for political gain.

Lemming

jman0 wrote:

Possibly a member of the clergy, something they've traditionally done in NI. I suppose that would make the Catholic church in league with IRA right?

No it wouldn't. The Clergy were used because they simply delivered messages. They did not spout propoganda and rhetoric for SF/IRA.

By the way, do you have some sort of proof of your claim?

Do you have some sort of proof that SF aren't the political wing of the IRA? Do you have some sort of explaination as to why SF are so tightly associated with the IRA and why members seem to share affilation and speak from the same hymn sheet? No?

This is a storm in a tea cup compared to the Thatcher years when the IRA were labeled criminals and worst yet.... Marxist! And in league with Libya.
If you think the heat is on now, you should have been around in the 80's mate. They banned SF from airwaves for what, 20+years yet it didn't erode their electoral mandate then, what can the powers-that-be possibly do today? Besides a Shoot-to-Kill policy i mean.

Yes. But you are forgetting that Thatcher was reviled, even inside Britain, and that SF/IRA had the unwavering financial support of US citizenry & politicians. Neither of those above circumstances is applicable here. Thatcher is gone, and it is SF/IRA who are currently pissing everyone else off, not Thatcher. SF/IRA have not been banned from the airwaves and to be honest I see no reason not too since they are doing more damage to themselves than anyone could.b On top of this, that bastion of financial stability [the USA] for SF/IRA looks like it's about to shut the door too.

As for eroding their electoral mandate - they never had one back then (since they weren't allowed run anyway that's a moot point), and they still don't.


For those too stupid or thick to grasp it.... I'll insert the heavy sarcasm warning here:

SARCASM ALERT

I think a Shoot-to-kill policy might be appropriate too. It'll certain be ironic that SF/IRA are getting a dose of their own "community policing" measures ....
*COUGH*

END SARCASM ALERT

lomb

Lemming wrote:

On top of this, that bastion of financial stability [the USA] for SF/IRA looks like it's about to shut the door too.

they could always stick with doing bank jobs to raise money for 'politics' though

Lemming

lomb wrote:

they could always stick with doing bank jobs to raise money for 'politics' though

Nah ... you're forgetting all those drugs they "confiscated" from the pushers when they did their "drug dealers out" campaign ....

Ooops. Did I just say that?!!

jman0

Lemming wrote:

No it wouldn't. The Clergy were used because they simply delivered messages. They did not spout propoganda and rhetoric for SF/IRA.



Do you have some sort of proof that SF aren't the political wing of the IRA? Do you have some sort of explaination as to why SF are so tightly associated with the IRA and why members seem to share affilation and speak from the same hymn sheet? No?



Yes. But you are forgetting that Thatcher was reviled, even inside Britain, and that SF/IRA had the unwavering financial support of US citizenry & politicians. Neither of those above circumstances is applicable here. Thatcher is gone, and it is SF/IRA who are currently pissing everyone else off, not Thatcher. SF/IRA have not been banned from the airwaves and to be honest I see no reason not too since they are doing more damage to themselves than anyone could.b On top of this, that bastion of financial stability [the USA] for SF/IRA looks like it's about to shut the door too.

As for eroding their electoral mandate - they never had one back then (since they weren't allowed run anyway that's a moot point), and they still don't.[\QUOTE]

WTF, SF are the largest nationalist party in NI.
And in the 80's, what you never heard of Bobby Sands MP?
Of course they could run for election, they are a legal political party. They just don't take their seats in Westminster.
The fact that you don't even know this must mean you don't know squat about NI or SF.
Thatcher was loved in the 80's, why else is she the longest running PM in Britain?
Most things i've read are that the provos own legitimate businesses in RoI, Britiain and USA... their funds from america aren't coming from a fricking collection box passed around the pub. Have a look around, SF electorally aren't suffering from this current spate of SF-basing, like i said they've survived worse, even state sponsored murder.
Get used to it, because they're still gaining electorally in RoI.
Be afraid, very afraid.

Lemming

ARRRGH my eyes!! learn to format man!!!!

jman0 wrote:

WTF, SF are the largest nationalist party in NI.
And in the 80's, what you never heard of Bobby Sands MP?
Of course they could run for election, they are a legal political party. They just don't take their seats in Westminster.

Ah yes. Had forgotten about that. Hand in the air for that.

Thatcher was loved in the 80's, why else is she the longest running PM in Britain?

I can tell you that she was hated outside of upper-middle class circles. From the horses mouth.

Most things i've read are that the provos own legitimate businesses in RoI, Britiain and USA... their funds from america aren't coming from a fricking collection box passed around the pub.

No. That'd be money laundering then. So not so legitimate after all ...... tell me what do you think the term "fund-raising campaign" means? Literally "pass the collection box" whether it's a pub peanut bowl or a cheque book.

Have a look around, SF electorally aren't suffering from this current spate of SF-basing, like i said they've survived worse, even state sponsored murder.
Get used to it, because they're still gaining electorally in RoI.
Be afraid, very afraid.

That remains to be seen. After the McCartney murder & the ensuing fallout I believe that they've lost (and continue to lose) a significant amount of credibility and people are less willing to listen to them. Politically that's quite quite evident with the amount of bashing they are getting from all sides in government.

Now, if I were you (and thankfully I'm not a SF/IRA apologist), I would be more concerned about their own community in the North is beginning to turn. Discontent becomes dissent becomes open defiance.

Hydroquinone

Can any SF person here tell me what this is supposed to be about?
link

McGuinness is annoyed because the PSNI haven't arrested someone for the murder and they are stage managing the whole epiosode to make SF look bad?
What? What is he on?

If the police arrest and the wrong person, SF'll be up on their hind legs shouting about police intimidation and corruption and all manner of the ususal carry on in the blink of an eye. And let's face it, Sinn Fein will know if the people charged are the wrong person because they know who the murderers are.
The PSNI are damned if they do and damned if they dont, it seems to me. Has the Sinn Fein PR department all gone out on strike or what?

Seth Brundle

reading Hydroquinone's link I see the following
"Meanwhile, Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness has accused the PSNI of tailoring its investigation into the murder to cause maximum damage to Sinn Féin."
Now SF don't need the police to cause maximum damage - they are doing fine by themselves:-
* 7 members of SF were involved allegedly in the murder of Robert McCartney.
* 2 other members were in the pub, apparently(!) managed to see nothing but still failed to let the authorities know for some weeks
* 2 SF members are caught in Cork with a sum of money believed to be from the Northern Bank job.
* 2 SF members were arrested in Manorhamilton after intimidating members of the public
* 2 SF members proclaim on national tv that the murder of an innocent woman during the troubles was not a crime
Now someone tell me that SF are a legitimate party who have the best interests of the public and are not involved in crime! Assuming we can believe the SF spin that all criminal elements will be expelled from the party, there will be nobody left before the month is out!

Seth Brundle

Oh also - further to these recent events there is also the fact that 5 men who were members of the provisional IRA were found with election posters of Aengus O' Snodaigh & a SF anti-bin charges poster (along with guns and other IRA necessities).

MT

It's good to see that the brave McCartney sisters will not be intimidated by Martin McGuiness's veiled threats. I think we'd all agree that they can only be applauded for this real campaign for truth and justice. I mean how many others would stand up to tyranny of Sinn Féin and the IRA in the areas they have gained a stranglehold over?

I'm starting to sense that the families commendable stand is beginning to spur a quiet revolution in people's attitude to the community oppressors. Apparently, the families of other victims of IRA human right's abuses are following the families lead. One in particular is the mother of Mark Robinson, a young Catholic murdered by the 'freedom fighters', who claims the Republican Movement latter intimidated the family into silence.

In light of all this, maybe that champion of rights for Irish women, Aengus O'Snodaigh, will censure his colleagues for robbing so many Irish women of their children. Or are women only oppressed when the 'RA isn't involved?

Anyway, here's what the McCartney's have to say:



From UTV TUESDAY 15/03/2005 09:00:02


McCartney family dismiss Sinn Fein warning

The family of murdered Belfast man Robert McCartney today dismissed Sinn Fein warnings that they are in danger of being exploited for political purposes.

Catherine McCartney, who flew out from Dublin airport with her four sisters and her brother`s partner for a St Patrick`s Day meeting with President George Bush, said they were not stupid.

She said: "We have to be very careful that we`re not being used by anybody and that includes Sinn Fein and all political parties, we`re not stupid women.

"We get the impression that someone thinks out there that somebody`s behind this, pulling our strings. The only person behind this is our Robert and he is the person pulling our strings."

Ms McCartney said her family were capable of standing up and speaking for themselves.

They are flying to Washington today at the invitation of President Bush, who heard of the family`s campaign to seek out those responsible for their brother`s death outside Magennis`s Bar in Belfast city centre in January.

Ms McCartney said the family would also be meeting Senator Ted Kennedy, Senator Hillary Clinton and a number of other congressional representatives.

"What we hope to achieve is just to tell President Bush the story of what happened to Robert that night, to tell there has been very little development in terms of arrests and charges and also to let them know of the recent allegation that (Sinn Fein) party members were in the bar that night but didn`t feel it necessary to go to the police or the ombudsman," she said.

She added it was time for Sinn Fein to end the nonsense of urging people to give notes to solicitors, which were worthless in court.

Mr McGuinness insisted that his comments should not be seen as a threat to the McCartneys.

He told BBC Radio 4`s Today programme: "It wasn`t intended in any way to be a threat.

"It was intended to be a word of friendly advice from someone who is 100% behind their campaign for truth and justice.

"What I am flagging up here is the fact that on the streets some people are making comments to me - and I think it is a growing feeling - that the McCartneys shouldn`t allow their campaign, which is for truth and justice, to be undermined by elements around them who are party political and who have got an agenda in relation to Sinn Fein."

Mr McGuinness said that someone who had presented himself in radio interviews as an adviser to the McCartneys was "a person who has been opposed to the Good Friday Agreement and hostile to Sinn Fein`s very participation in the peace process from the very beginning".

The McCartney family said they felt very let down by the failure of two Sinn Fein candidates who were in the bar on the night of their brother`s murder to go to the police.

Catherine McCartney said: "We felt these people should have had a sense of moral duty and come forward. That could have been a big sign to people in the community that it`s OK to go to the police and help the family in any way."

There have been widespread reports that many of the 80 witnesses on the night were threatened that they should not co-operate with the police.

The family plan to use their US visit to increase the pressure on Sinn Fein to co-operate by lobbying US politicians, many of whom have been heavily involved in the peace process.

They have not ruled out the policy of running as independent candidates in the British general election in May to further their campaign.

"Our aim is justice for Robert. We certainly will campaign around election time if these murderers are not in court," said Ms McCartney.

The McCartney family are due to return from the US on Saturday.

Sand

The SF/IRA threats arent surprising. Afterall, theyve been engaging in a widespread campaign of intimidation against the locals already so no major change. And despite the awkward, forced, begrudging musings about people maybe, you know if they feel like it, if they have a few hours free, might want to visit a priest and confess their sins it seems like a fecking SF/IRA convention was going on in the pub and none of them saw anything. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

And If I remember correctly I read an article in the Sindo where a reporter recounted snippets from the SF/IRA convention in Dublin. Adams speech on the McCartney murder was given a tepid reception. Apparently one charmers response to being asked what he thought about the McCartneys was "**** Them!". SF/IRA despise the McCartneys as traitors and enemies. Theyre currently untouchable because theyre in the public eye but it cant be easy for them knowing the psychopaths in SF/IRA hold a grudge against them.

I hear the McCartneys are saying theyre broke - does anyone know if there is any fund set upto support them yet? Id contribute, and I think quite a lot of people would too.

Im very encouraged by the noises whereby Adams and Arrafat are being mentioned in the same sentence. Bush - rightly or wrongly - views the world very simply. If he views the McCartney sisters as being the Good Guys, then Adams by default is one of the Bad Guys. Even Kennedy is blanking Adams now, and he was the one that swung the visa for him in the first place. In a post 9/11 mindset, the American media/public will not listen to SF/IRAs bull**** as uncritically as before.

cdebru

billy the squid wrote:

quick question if you will

I know they has some sort of PR system for elections for the northern Ireland assembly, but are they using the same system for westminster elections or are they using the First-past-the-post system like the rest of the UK?

If it is the latter any mccartney candidate taking votes from adadams could cost adams the seat, even if neither of them were to be elected.

i think what mcguiness is saying is that the familyy have to be careful that they are not used by other political parties to further their own anti republican ideals

that if for example they run in the west minister elections against republicans then they become political adversaries and risk detracting from the rightful cause of obtaining justice for their brother

monument

cdebru wrote:

i think what mcguiness is saying is that the familyy have to be careful that they are not used by other political parties to further their own anti republican ideals

Yes, and I think that is the way the family understood the statement, no matter how some would like to twist it.

Something was said about only running as an independent.

mike65

Those who saw McGuiness say he narrowed his eyes as he said the words then drew a finger across his throat..er I made the last bit up.

Mike.

cdebru

Lemming wrote:

Nah ... you're forgetting all those drugs they "confiscated" from the pushers when they did their "drug dealers out" campaign ....

Ooops. Did I just say that?!!

you see with ridiculous claims like this all you do is make republicans reject everything you say

republicans know this is lies

the same way this morning the irish time and the star said the IRA had nothing to do with the robbery yesterday
yet the sun and the mirror headline was provos strike again or the IRA did it

all you do when you make outlandish claims like this is take away from your arguement about anything else the IRA may have been involved in

Lemming

cdebru wrote:

you see with ridiculous claims like this all you do is make republicans reject everything you say

republicans know this is lies

the same way this morning the irish time and the star said the IRA had nothing to do with the robbery yesterday
yet the sun and the mirror headline was provos strike again or the IRA did it

all you do when you make outlandish claims like this is take away from your arguement about anything else the IRA may have been involved in

You do understand sarcasm don't you cdebru? Do I need to hold your hand and do a "sarcasm by numbers" routine to help your poor besieged republican brain? :rolleyes:

Anyone who read the comments before that could see I was being flippant.

I do find your comment about outlandish claims resulting in people not taking anything seriously ..... coming from a Shinner I find that to be absolutely f*cking priceless! Mr. Pot? Meet Mr.Kettle.

Sponge Bob

cdebru wrote:

i think what mcguiness is saying is that the familyy have to be careful that they are not used by other political parties to further their own anti republican ideals

They will stand for the DUP ....of course they will cdebru .

Martin is right as always in his reading of the sit-YEE-ayshun .

cdebru

Lemming wrote:

You do understand sarcasm don't you cdebru? Do I need to hold your hand and do a "sarcasm by numbers" routine to help your poor besieged republican brain? :rolleyes:

Anyone who read the comments before that could see I was being flippant.

I do find your comment about outlandish claims resulting in people not taking anything seriously ..... coming from a Shinner I find that to be absolutely f*cking priceless! Mr. Pot? Meet Mr.Kettle.

i understand it perfectly
so can i take it you don't believe the ira are involved in drug dealing

so were you being sarcastic when you alleged it here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=230138&page=2&pp=20


or was that one of your unsarcastic moments when you actually believed what you were writing


I am not a shinner Iam not a member of any political party thank you

cdebru

Sponge Bob wrote:

They will stand for the DUP ....of course they will cdebru .

Martin is right as always in his reading of the sit-YEE-ayshun .

I never said they would stand for any party once they stand for election then they become politcal adversaries

anti republicans are not just on the unionist side

they would risk alienating people who support sinn fein from their campaign for justice for their brother

if they specifically stand against sinn fein they risk being viewed as being used by others to further their own anti republican agenda rather than just highlighting their quest for justice and to see the people responsible for the murder of their brother being brought to justice

AmenToThat

mike65 wrote:

Those who saw McGuiness say he narrowed his eyes as he said the words then drew a finger across his throat..er I made the last bit up.

Mike.

Alot of that about lately.
Even more 'forgetfullness' though.

Like the fact that the McCarthneys have been happy to support SF despit years of indimidation and murder in the Short Strand area by a nasty IRA unit that seemed to be beyond the control of the army council.
Like the fact that Robert McCarthney was happy to drink in the company of these nuts.
Like the fact that the guy who was with Robert McCarthney and who was injured by these IRA guys was today charged in a Belfast court with two counts of violence.
Like the fact that one of those wanted in connection with the murder presented himself to the PSNI today but was told that his timing didnt suit the investigating officers (youd think that because so few people have come forward the detectives would have had plenty of time to interview this man).

Iv seen precious little about any of these issues dealt with here today.

If we are going to discuss the facts lets discuss all the facts and not just those that suit a particular agenda.

mycroft

AmenToThat wrote:

Alot of that about lately.
Even more 'forgetfullness' though.

Like the fact that the McCarthneys have been happy to support SF despit years of indimidation and murder in the Short Strand area by a nasty IRA unit that seemed to be beyond the control of the army council.
Like the fact that Robert McCarthney was happy to drink in the company of these nuts.

Every report including the IRA's suggest mc carthy was just in the same bar, and wasn't drinking with the IRA men, in fact they took exception to something he or his friend did (a gesture).

But the first part of your post is a real beauty.

SF and the IRA were the only justice in the short strand for decades. Not because of just who they where, but they intimidated those around them. Implying that the Mc Carthys are just some ungrateful swine just cause their brother was beaten stabbed and gutted is a new kind of low. As the Sisters said in an interview "We grew up in the violence, the army, the raids, this was all we knew"

Well what they've known these past ten years is that the situation changed, or was supposed to have. The situation was supposed to be evolved and the casual air of violence (on an aside does anyone else remember what it was like in the 80s and 70s, the fear going up the north, I can remember as a child genuinely being afraid getting into a taxi in dublin for the first time, because of so many UTV reports of taxi drivers getting shot up north) the family supported SF as they grew up, because they thought sinn fein could defend them from the UVF and the RUC and the army, they supported SF when they thought they could bring peace. And they rejected SF/IRA when thye realised they were more interested into protecting their own and the their money making apparatus, and only after the family appealed to the world did the IRA offer them the kind of revenge they'd thought the north had outgrown.

Amen you sicken me, this is the kind of family the IRA "fought" for, and who fought for SF, and when the back is turned SF try to screw em because they're a liability. Theres going to be a concerted attempt to villify the family in the coming weeks, Mc Guinness has fired the first blow, it won't be the last, this by Amen is a poor weak broadside........

Slutmonkey57b

SF's media machine seems to have gone off the rails altogether now. Warning citizens not to exercise their right to stand for political office would be unbelievable hipocracy if it weren't coming from SF.

AmenToThat

AmenToThat wrote:

Like the fact that the McCarthneys have been happy to support SF despit years of indimidation and murder in the Short Strand area by a nasty IRA unit that seemed to be beyond the control of the army council.
Like the fact that Robert McCarthney was happy to drink in the company of these nuts.

Well yesterday on route to the U.S , the McCartney sisters said they were very disillusioned with SF as it was now coming out that many SF members were in the pub and were slow to come foward.
This morning on morning Ireland they said they were in the U.S to dispell any romantic notions that Irish americans had about the need for the IRA in this day and age and that all they are now are criminals.
For a link on that, go to the RTÉ website and listen to this mornings morning Ireland.

Lemming

cdebru wrote:

i understand it perfectly
so can i take it you don't believe the ira are involved in drug dealing

I never said that. As a matter of opinion I believe that SF/IRA have their fingers in a lot of dirty little pies, including drugs.

so were you being sarcastic when you alleged it here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=230138&page=2&pp=20


or was that one of your unsarcastic moments when you actually believed what you were writing

I stand by everything I write cdebru, unlike a lot of people who can't do anything but spout indoctrinated crap repeatedly as if that will suddenly make it all true.

I am not a shinner Iam not a member of any political party thank you

You defend them often enough. Maybe you're part of a "Friends of Shinner" group or some crap :rolleyes:

But as an aside ... nice to see you ignore every other thing I wrote PRIOR to that flippant remark and then proceed to try and base your argument around soimething that I have stated was me being flippant...

I call it the "bloody sunday" defense (in homage to the "Chewbacca defense" from SouthPark - and if you think comparing it to a tv series is absurd then I shall have rested my case)

Sane Person: Look at attrocity x, y, z!!
SF/IRA: No matter what else gets said it doesn't matter!! Because "Bloody Sunday"
Sane Person: What?
SF/IRA: Ummm
Sane Person: Riiiiight. Well can you explain this event? And how SF/IRA can possibly be adhering to agreement 'N'?
SF/IRA: It doesn't matter because "Bloody Sunday"
Sane Person: That's not a defense!!!
SF/IRA: Yes it is.
Sane Person: How is it a defense?
SF/IRA: Idunno :-/ It just is.
Sane Person: Riiiiiight. How can you call the murder of X not a mur ... wait ... don't tell me. "Bloody sunday" right?
SF/IRA: "Bloody Sunday".

etc etc etc etc.


In short, the age old "Oh!! Look over there! Something else!!" routine :rolleyes:

Slutmonkey57b

AmenToThat wrote:

Like the fact that the McCarthneys have been happy to support SF despit years of indimidation and murder in the Short Strand area by a nasty IRA unit that seemed to be beyond the control of the army council.

Who said they were beyond control? They may well have been acting with the blessing, or direction of the "army council" before this incident. Unless you have inside info to the contrary?

Like the fact that Robert McCarthney was happy to drink in the company of these nuts.

I'd LOVE to hear an explaination for this. Why SHOULDN'T a man be able to walk into a pub and drink without worrying what kind of psycho's he's going to have to deal with?

Surely the whole point of the peace process is to have a situation where people can walk into a pub, or a shop, or a job, or a street, without having to worry about whether there is a nutter inside who's going to take exception to who they are or whether they show the proper "respect"?

This is remarkably like the logic of clan members who murdered black and white civil rights activists in the states on the basis that they should have known better than to exist, or espouse their views in the same physical space as the Klan.

Like the fact that the guy who was with Robert McCarthney and who was injured by these IRA guys was today charged in a Belfast court with two counts of violence.

Previous criminal history is inadmissable in a British court of law, isn't it? In any case the fact remains that, whether he was a criminal himself, that which was done to him is a crime. Isn't that what IRA supporters and apologists always harped on about when an IRA man was shot, or arrested, or beaten? "It doesn't matter what he did, it only matters what was done to him"? Ahhh, but that's different.

Again, surely the point of the process is that we arrive at a situation where all are equal before the law?

Like the fact that one of those wanted in connection with the murder presented himself to the PSNI today but was told that his timing didnt suit the investigating officers (youd think that because so few people have come forward the detectives would have had plenty of time to interview this man).

I've seen no reporting of that at all. Care to elaborate? The police do release suspects who hand themselves in while they establish evidence you know. Since most of the witnesses (including a SF electoral candidate) have failed to come forward and speak to the police (and as SF have demonstrated contempt for the investigation by failing to speak to the police themselves) they may simply not have enough evidence to hold him. Or, as a hot political football they may simply be trying to avoid looking like they're jumping to conclusions.

As I predicted elsewhere, the chances of the killers and their accomplices getting a clean trial are zilch, particularly as SF has been very public in their dealings of throwing them out of the party etc. The chances of any successful prosecution not being thrown out on appeal are slim to say the least.

Iv seen precious little about any of these issues dealt with here today.

Probably because McGuinness has his foot in his mouth and is dominating the news as a result.

If we are going to discuss the facts lets discuss all the facts and not just those that suit a particular agenda.

How does Brendan Devine's criminal convicion fit in with a specific political agenda I wonder? Certainly not by SF quietly attempting to smear one of the IRA's victim's reputations like they have done so often in the past I'm sure...

Lemming

AmenToThat wrote:

Like the fact that the McCarthneys have been happy to support SF despit years of indimidation and murder in the Short Strand area by a nasty IRA unit that seemed to be beyond the control of the army council.
Like the fact that Robert McCarthney was happy to drink in the company of these nuts.
Like the fact that the guy who was with Robert McCarthney and who was injured by these IRA guys was today charged in a Belfast court with two counts of violence.
Like the fact that one of those wanted in connection with the murder presented himself to the PSNI today but was told that his timing didnt suit the investigating officers (youd think that because so few people have come forward the detectives would have had plenty of time to interview this man).

Iv seen precious little about any of these issues dealt with here today.

If we are going to discuss the facts lets discuss all the facts and not just those that suit a particular agenda.

Nice to see the "Bloody Sunday" defense being utilised once more. Stop trying to deflect the facts o fthe case

1.

Like the fact that the McCarthneys have been happy to support SF despit years of indimidation and murder in the Short Strand area by a nasty IRA unit that seemed to be beyond the control of the army council.

Just like everyone else. They put up with it to get on with things. There is a point where people will say "enough is enough" to others bullsh*t. I'm thinking the gutting of a member of the community they claim to hae been "protecting" would do that.

2.

Like the fact that Robert McCarthney was happy to drink in the company of these nuts.

He was in the same bar. That does not equate to drinking with them. As another matter, he offered to buy a drink for the "offended" party's partner as a show of good faith. Once more, that does not equate to drinking with these people.

3.

Like the fact that the guy who was with Robert McCarthney and who was injured by these IRA guys was today charged in a Belfast court with two counts of violence.

Two counts of violence in relation to what? What incident? A prior incident perhaps? Even if he was being put up for being involved in a fight in the bar, that does not excuse nor make right the subsequent violence metted out to both men and is utterly irrelevant.

4.

Like the fact that one of those wanted in connection with the murder presented himself to the PSNI today but was told that his timing didnt suit the investigating officers (youd think that because so few people have come forward the detectives would have had plenty of time to interview this man).

Link please.

5.

Iv seen precious little about any of these issues dealt with here today.

I've seen precious little of the GFA dealt with by SF/IRA and I've been waiting for the last god knows how many years. Plenty of rhetoric and fluff, but little delivery of the goods so to speak.

bonkey

Lemming wrote:

I've seen precious little of the GFA dealt with by SF/IRA and I've been waiting for the last god knows how many years. Plenty of rhetoric and fluff, but little delivery of the goods so to speak.

But does this make them any different to any of the other parties involved with the GFA? More specifically - any of the other Northern parties?

I can't think of a single one which hasn't been engaged in rhetoric and fluff, or in shifting the goalposts, or in just plain ol' obstructionism. They're all at it, from what I can see....which is why I'm wondering.

And if they're all at it...why is the public busy blaming only one party? Hasn't it occurred to anyone that showing such a blatant bias cannot be anything other than counter-productive? And if so, could they explain to me how it will be productive?

We can stand up there and insist that until SF learn to play fair, there's no place for them at the table....but while we do so with other people sitting safely at the table despite playing unfairly as well....well, I'd put our chances of actually making progress somewhere in the negative figures.

I know I'm off-topic, but I'm just making a passing comment and leaving it at that.

magpie

I can't think of a single one which hasn't been engaged in rhetoric and fluff, or in shifting the goalposts, or in just plain ol' obstructionism. They're all at it, from what I can see....which is why I'm wondering.

And if they're all at it...why is the public busy blaming only one party?

Because the leaders of this party are members of the IRA Army Council, because this party/paramilitary organisation funds itself with armed robbery in the middle of peace negotiations, because this party has groups of armed thugs who kill people in pubs for looking at their girlfriends the wrong way, because this party then issues 'warnings' to people not to contest their seats in elections.

Any other reasons you need?

I don't know about SF shooting themselves in the foot, more like shooting themselves in the ankles, knees and elbows. Much like they might do to a 16 year old who doesn't give them their cut of his hash-dealing.

bonkey

magpie wrote:

Because the leaders of this party are members of the IRA Army Council

Your use of the present tense is, I assume, indicative of this being an assumption as opposed to an established and accepted fact?

There have been long-running threads about this very issue, and what it seems to boil down to is a choice of who to believe, rather than there being any actual proof.

Also, for this point to be valid, can you verify that no political party member of any of the other political parties has equally proven links to another terrorist movement? If not, then I ask again, why only SF?

, because this party/paramilitary organisation funds itself with armed robbery in the middle of peace negotiations,

Again, is this opinion, or is there proof that the party has received proceeds from this? Or is it just a case of "we won't negotiate with the political wing of terrorists[/i]?

If its the latter, then I take it that you oppose the GFA in its entirety and every step which has been taken to remove us from the troubles of the past few decades?

Also, can you show that no other paramilitary organisation has been involved in criminal activity? Or is it just that if they are, we don't know for sure whereas with the IRA there's no doubt that they were, and a serious quest

because this party has groups of armed thugs who kill people in pubs for looking at their girlfriends the wrong way,

They did this on instruction...is that what you're saying? Again...fact or opinion?

because this party then issues 'warnings' to people not to contest their seats in elections.

Which differs from what the media have reported both the issuers and receivers of this warning understood it to mean....so presumably this is more opinion rather than established fact.

Any other reasons you need?

Yes. One which doesn't involve buying into what spinmeisters have decided happened and how they have chosen to present it to us. One which is based on fact rather than assumption of truth. One which definitely doesn't apply to other parties.

While most of what you have said above has a basis in fact (e.g. the IRA did carry out robberies), you've decided to slant how you present it (e.g. Sinn Fein was funded from these robberies) in a manner which strikes me as, well, biased.

Its funny that you should do so whilst I'm more or less asking for the reason for such bias existing in the first place

If you apply the same approach to all of the other involved parties, you'll find that none of them are worth dealing with either.

So again...why only Sinn Fein and the IRA?

jc

bonkey

bonkey wrote:

Also, for this point to be valid, can you verify that no political party member of any of the other political parties has equally proven links to another terrorist movement? If not, then I ask again, why only SF?

There was a documentary on RTÉ last night called The year London Burned, it was about the Balcome street IRA gang who blew up and shot up as much as London as they could in 1974.
They were released under the terms of the GFA and rightly so as part of that agreement.
The programme showed a scene from the SF Árd Fheis following that release where the four members were brought on stage to roars and cheers and hugged by Adams and McGuinness.
They were féted as heroes having caused mahem in London, a city like many in Britain, that Irish people fled to in their thousands to try find work.
All those people in the hall roaring and shouting their approval,I assume were SF members-100% approval from those in the hall-100% approval for what would outside of SF be considered widely as terrorist acts.

Thats a link that would understandably leave a bitter taste in a lot of peoples mouths, its not a scene that would be repeated at a Labour,FG or FF party convention or an Ulster Unionist one for that matter.
The names of the people killed were listed at the end of the programme.


So to address your question,I doubt if you could draw any comparison between that and the other established parties at the moment.The fact that people widely believe that the IRA was responsible for the Northern robbery and respected government ministers relying on Garda information attribute all sorts of other criminality to republicans doesnt help improve Non SF peoples opinion of that party given the warmth of the link that is there.

In non SF's peoples eyes, its not a case of there being one or two or twenty two from other parties that may at a push have some terrorist links, its the extent of the approval,love-in connection amongst SF members for the IRA(as witnessed at that Árd Fheis for example) that would cause the popular perception problem for them.
Unfortunately for those bored with it, or those on the receiving end of it, many of the discussions on this board are symptomatic at the moment of the subjects topicality and of the apparent irreconcialability of the opposing views.