SF candidate fails to make statement to Police Ombudsman

MT

From UTV

SF candidate in McCartney murder bar

A Sinn Fein Assembly election candidate was among around 70 people in the bar where Belfast father-of-two Robert McCartney was murdered, it emerged today.


Cora Groogan, who ran for Sinn Fein in the November 2003 Assembly elections in Martin McGuinness`s Mid Ulster constituency, admitted to the Press Association she was in Magennis`s bar on January 30 when a fight erupted resulting in the murder of Mr McCartney.

During the attack, Mr McCartney`s friend Brendan Devine also sustained serious stab wounds.

However, she insisted she saw nothing inside the bar and confirmed she had given a full statement to her solicitor.

The Sinn Fein member said: "I got to the bar about 10.00pm
that Sunday. I was there for a short while.

"There was a commotion in the bar but I witnessed nothing and left shortly after 11.00pm.

"I have given a full statement to my solicitor."

Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams has in recent weeks called for all witnesses to come forward with information about what happened on the night when Mr McCartney was killed.

The IRA has expelled three members following an internal
investigation over their role in the killing and cover-up.

That following claims from Mr McCartney`s family that members of the organisation involved were being shielded and witnesses were being intimidated.

Last Tuesday the IRA also confirmed that at a five-and-a-half hour meeting with the McCartney family they had offered to have those involved in the murder shot, but this was rejected.

Catherine McCartney today said she was astonished to learn that a Sinn Fein candidate had been present on the night her brother Robert was killed.

"She says she has given a statement to a solicitor but I would challenge her to give a statement to the police or the Police Ombudsman," Catherine McCartney said.

"Giving statements to solicitors is not really what is needed. The statement should be given to people with the proper investigative skills who can help to bring those responsible to court."

The revelation that a candidate was present on the night of the murder in Magennis`s bar will place further pressure on Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams who has already suspended seven party members after receiving their names from the McCartney`s.

The West Belfast MP also passed on the details of those seven members to the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman Nuala O`Loan whose investigators had offered to help the detectives.

Republicans have been reluctant to ask witnesses to come forward with information directly to the police because of their belief that the new police service has failed to match nationalist expectations of police reforms.

The nationalist SDLP, the catholic church and the British, Irish and US Governments, however, have all backed the new policing arrangements and support co-operation with the detectives probing Mr McCartney`s murder.

The family of Robert McCartney have in recent days expressed concern that while there is a lot of political activity around efforts to bring the killers before the courts, not enough information is coming on the ground to the police investigation.

Police have also confirmed that people arrested and questioned about the murder had exercised the right to silence.

Detective Superintendent George Hamilton, the senior investigating officer, has also voiced concern that some witnesses are still reluctant to come forward because of fear about reprisals in their own community if they help detectives.

Catherine McCartney said today: "We are adamant that people who know what happened should give that information.

"It is frustrating that there has been a lot of political activity around this issue over the past few weeks and yet very little information is coming from the ground.

"It is frustrating that despite appeals from Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams for people to provide evidence, that is not materialising and the family would urge everyone to help this investigation and give as much detail as possible."

Sinn Fein`s chief negotiator Martin McGuinness said today he didn`t care who was in the bar as long as they gave information to the authorities.

Refusing to comment specifically on the revelations, he said: "I`m not going to talk about any individual. It doesn`t matter who they are.

"I don`t care who was in the bar that night. People have a duty to help the McCartney family achieve the truth and justice that they deserve."

---

So much for the calls by Gerry and the Peacemakers urging those in the bar to give statements to the Police Ombudsman. Is there one rule for the people and another for party members? Furthermore, it's now six weeks after the murder and Sinn Féin's co-operation in solving this crime remains woefully inadequate.

I think this whole affair is becoming a microcosm of the 'peace' process itself. Instead of doing all they can to bring the family closure Sinn Féin appear to be playing this saga for as much political benefit/damage limitation as possible. In much the same way the IRA could have decommissioned years ago allowing devolution to take hold. But instead the entire process has been dragged out for as long as possible guaranteeing SF a far higher profile than a party their size might otherwise merit.

I wonder how many more weeks will pass before Cora Groogan decides to properly aid the search for 'truth and justice' her party blathers on about? Will the PSNI Ombudsman be kept waiting for another six weeks? Or was Gerry Adam's call for those with information to contact the ombudsman merely a stunt?

In my view, the party's hypocrisy and cynicism throughout has been as breathtaking as it’s been revolting. I think this episode shines a light on the utter one-sidedness of Sinn Féin's campaign for truth and justice.

Surely the IRA's human rights abuses must now represent Sinn Féin's very own ‘Guantanamo Bay’.

Villain

This young woman saw nothing so she has no information to help the investigation, I'd be more interested in getting those who saw the incident to come forward.

I for one can say that I have been in a bar when a serious assualt took place but saw nothing, I don't like to get involved in such incidents. I'm sure many more people can say the same.

So how about you stop bashing SF because a member was in a bar when the incident happened but saw nothing.

At this rate we should re-name the politics forum to "Sinn Fein's Politics"

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

This young woman saw nothing so she has no information to help the investigation, I'd be more interested in getting those who saw the incident to come forward.

I for one can say that I have been in a bar when a serious assualt took place but saw nothing, I don't like to get involved in such incidents. I'm sure many more people can say the same.

So how about you stop bashing SF because a member was in a bar when the incident happened but saw nothing.

At this rate we should re-name the politics forum to "Sinn Fein's Politics"

Yeah, she says she knows nothing, but then Mary Lou was on the record a few weeks ago saying the death of Jean Mc Conville, was not a crime, I'm just a tad sceptical of what she claims she did and did not see.

The back peddling and story changing of both sinn fein and the ira over the last 6 weeks has been interesting to watch. I wonder how this story will develop.

I'm also fascinated how long it's taken this gem to come out.

For example was she drinking with any of the 7 sinn fein members expelled, it seems unlikely she didn't know them, and she is standing for election.

Seth Brundle

@mycoft - was that not Mitchell Mcloughlin not Mary Lou?

Anyway, I have been in that pub. Its not very big and any kind of scuffle would be noticed! Also after the men went out and murdered Robert McCartney, they returned to the bar, locked the doors and whilst instructing all not to report any of this to the police they removed all cctv footage from the pub. And both* SF candidates who were there saw nothing? Bull****!

* so far it appears that two SF candidates were there and saw nothing but I expect this figure to rise

mycroft

@mycoft - was that not Mitchell Mcloughlin not Mary Lou?

Mary Lou on this week in politics a no. of weeks ago

And the family have started calling the toilet the tardis because that is the only explain how the number of people who were in the bar who claimed to be in their at the time

monument

Still, I fail to see the reason why she couldn’t have at least went directly to the Ombudsman, even with her lawyer. Even if the statement was only to say she didn’t see anything.

mycroft wrote:

I'm just a tad sceptical of what she claims she did and did not see.

Would I be right in saying you would probably would be ‘a tad sceptical’ no matter what she said?

lomb

irish1 wrote:

This young woman saw nothing so she has no information to help the investigation,

bull****

mycroft

monument wrote:

Would I be right in saying you would probably would be ‘a tad sceptical’ no matter what she said?

Well the aura of lies, intimidation, back peddling, desperate attempt to secure good PR, combined with her statement of "I saw nothing" appearing over a month the murder, makes me a tad sceptical.

I can't say what I'd feel if the situation was different.

lomb

these people actually dont deserve to rule a zoo, never mind the people. i hope their support erodes to nothing.

usually when a murder is commited full statements are given to police immediately b4 ones memory lapses. solicitors arent professional criminologists, it is the polices job to solve crimes.

in a small pub, where there is a hugh fracus, people running out, then others running in, cleaning the scene shouting to people they have seen nothing or they are dead. i can imagine it in my minds eye, 2 SF canditates there (and it takes a month for this information to come it lol). these people are total hypocrits and liers, and are accesories to murder. in the usa some people have got the electric chair for being an accessory. even this is too good for adams et all.

mike65

Dont worry it only a matter of time before every last person in that pub declares they heard and saw nothing.

Here's another deaf dumb and blind SF member link

Mike.

AmenToThat

lomb wrote:

these people actually dont deserve to rule a zoo, never mind the people. i hope their support erodes to nothing.

You can hope all you want as its simply not happening.
SF support is remaining steady.

lomb

AmenToThat wrote:

You can hope all you want as its simply not happening.
SF support is remaining steady.

and most are working class stiffs with little or no education and only hatred for others due to years of abuse.

Seth Brundle

lomb wrote:

2 SF canditates there (and it takes a month for this information to come it lol).

In fact there were 2* not counting the 7 who were allegedly involved in the murder!

* currently 2 but this seems to be increasing daily this week

FX Meister

She's a scum bag from Sinn Fein what do you expect? She is cute though.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

lomb wrote:

and most are working class stiffs with little or no education and only hatred for others due to years of abuse.

:rolleyes:

You have a lot to learn

OfflerCrocGod

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You have a lot to learn

It's the truth. It's you who has to learn, the majority of SF voters are idiots.

mycroft

FX Meister wrote:

She's a scum bag from Sinn Fein what do you expect? She is cute though.

Thank you for your informed and insighful opinion.

Just out of interest does anybody know if there were people who are members of other political parties who are keeping quiet?

I think the whole point is SF is a party tied with links to the paramilitary organisation who orginally sheltered several of its members who the family alledge murdered their brother.

I'm going to go out on limb and work under the assumption the UUP, and DUP didn't have any members drinking in a pub where IRA men would drink to after a bloody sunday commeration.

A Dub in Glasgo

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

It's the truth. It's you who has to learn, the majority of SF voters are idiots.

Really? when did you do the analysis?

Villain

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

the majority of SF voters are idiots.

What a great post :rolleyes:

monument

lomb wrote:

and most are working class stiffs with little or no education and only hatred for others due to years of abuse.

I’m sure you would love if everyone was “educated” to your view of the world. But it’s pretty sick to see someone using other people’s social class in such a way – "working class stiffs" (sic) – to somehow try to further their argument.

What “hatred for others due to years of abuse” does the Republic’s “working class stiffs” (sic) have?

FX Meister wrote:

She's a scum bag from Sinn Fein what do you expect? She is cute though.

Now, that’s just uncalled-for.

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

It's the truth. It's you who has to learn, the majority of SF voters are idiots.

This just gets better and better, doesn’t it?


I’m always questioning the mindset of republicans, but the views shown here from some SF-bashers lately, from the call to mass murder any suspected IRA member (murder is actually what some SF-bashers see as justice!) to downright bigotry and petty name-calling, is showing a lot about a large section of the SF-bashers.

BuffyBot

Still, I fail to see the reason why she couldn’t have at least went directly to the Ombudsman

I think it's time, once and for all, they started directing people towards giving statements to the proper investigative authorities and not being so wishy-washy about it all.

AmenToThat

BuffyBot wrote:

I think it's time, once and for all, they started directing people towards giving statements to the proper investigative authorities and not being so wishy-washy about it all.

The problem is that many republicans dont see the the PSNI/RUC as the proper investigative authority.
If your going to post on a topic my I respectfully suggest you at least make the effort to understand the topic your commenting on.

ionapaul

To be fair to the girl, despite her being in SF, no doubt she'd disappear fairly sharpish (along with members of her family) should she even think about going to the police. It isn't as though those lovable lads fighting on all of our behalfs for a socialist, united Ireland wouldn't put a bullet in her head and bury her in a shallow grave somewhere just because she is a republican supporter or politician.

Lemming

AmenToThat wrote:

The problem is that many republicans dont see the the PSNI/RUC as the proper investigative authority.
If your going to post on a topic my I respectfully suggest you at least make the effort to understand the topic your commenting on.

So .... how would SF/IRA propose that the killers are "brought to justice"? I'm curious to hear the answer to this

jman0

I wonder why the PSNI don't start arresting people that were inside the pub for conspiracy. Seems that would be a way to break the ice...

lomb

ionapaul wrote:

To be fair to the girl, despite her being in SF, no doubt she'd disappear fairly sharpish (along with members of her family) should she even think about going to the police. It isn't as though those lovable lads fighting on all of our behalfs for a socialist, united Ireland wouldn't put a bullet in her head and bury her in a shallow grave somewhere just because she is a republican supporter or politician.

thats true enough, how can any sane person support animals though?

BuffyBot

The problem is that many republicans dont see the the PSNI/RUC as the proper investigative authority.
If your going to post on a topic my I respectfully suggest you at least make the effort to understand the topic your commenting on.

Oh I understand. Frankly, that's their problem though. If they are serious about getting this issue resolved, they'll grow a backbone and bring their solicitors with them to the police station and not pussyfoot around the issue

ishmael whale

FX Meister wrote:

She's a scum bag from Sinn Fein what do you expect? She is cute though.

Of course if you said that in the wrong place you’d be surrounded by a half dozen ‘volunteers’ asking ‘Did you spill my pint?’

Lemming

jman0 wrote:

I wonder why the PSNI don't start arresting people that were inside the pub for conspiracy. Seems that would be a way to break the ice...

I believe that constitutes "intimidation".

Something SF/IRA and their supporters should be quite familiar with in regards how to go about executing it.

lomb

jman0 wrote:

I wonder why the PSNI don't start arresting people that were inside the pub for conspiracy. Seems that would be a way to break the ice...

yep theyre all guilty of perverting the course of justice, conspiracy, accessories to murder.

mycroft

lomb wrote:

yep theyre all guilty of perverting the course of justice, conspiracy, accessories to murder.

New to this are we?

For starts rounding up a huge chunk of witnesses and arresting them sends out the wrong message to a community that has suffered internment, and political shifts the shirt ripping "are we not wronged!" back to SF.

Secondly you'll have to proof they are guilty, with no evidence and a wall of silence, and the risk of charging people who really didn't see anything.

Finally if you'll recall there was organised rioting when the PSNI went in the short strand to pick up one IRA man.

Can you imagine if they started lifting 70 odd people? The vibe would scream 70s internment, and destory years of goodwill the PSNI have struggled to earn.

SF IRA would then use this as an excuse to continue their non complaince with the police board, and would switch the story from the Mc Carthys search for justice to the SF search for Justice for the crowd arrested.

oscarBravo

AmenToThat wrote:

The problem is that many republicans dont see the the PSNI/RUC as the proper investigative authority.

Whom do they see as the proper investigative authority?

Jimboo_Jones

irish1 wrote:

This young woman saw nothing so she has no information to help the investigation, I'd be more interested in getting those who saw the incident to come forward.

I for one can say that I have been in a bar when a serious assualt took place but saw nothing, I don't like to get involved in such incidents. I'm sure many more people can say the same.

So how about you stop bashing SF because a member was in a bar when the incident happened but saw nothing.

At this rate we should re-name the politics forum to "Sinn Fein's Politics"

You should ask yourself, is this really the type of person who you want to represent you in power. If she really did not see anything happening in the pub that night, she must have either drunk a litre of wiskey or be the most unobservant person in the world, which is hardly a good trait for a politician.

From what the media is reporting the person who was killed was a supporter of SF, one of the very people she is hoping to represent in office.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

AmenToThat wrote:

The problem is that many republicans dont see the the PSNI/RUC as the proper investigative authority.
If your going to post on a topic my I respectfully suggest you at least make the effort to understand the topic your commenting on.

So .... how would SF/IRA propose that the killers are "brought to justice"? I'm curious to hear the answer to this

I'm still waiting for an answer to the above question.

Any SF/IRA apologists care to step up to the plate?

BuffyBot

I'm still waiting for an answer to the above question.

Well, we already know the IRA's answer to the problem..

ionapaul

The IRA answered you a few days ago...they offered to shoot the ones responsible. That may not be brought to justice, but it certainly is "brought to justice", right?

bonkey

MT wrote:

So much for the calls by Gerry and the Peacemakers urging those in the bar to give statements to the Police Ombudsman. Is there one rule for the people and another for party members?

I think you need to either reconsider your use of the word "urging", or the word "rule" in the above.

Urging people to do something is not a rule for anynoe. It still leaves the choice to the individual. Or are you saying that you'd like SF and/or the IRA to force anyone they believe knows something to report it?

I think this whole affair is becoming a microcosm of the 'peace' process itself.

It most certainly is. SF are treated as the omniscient powers who know everything about everyone who was involved, and as events come to light that may have previously unknown, SF get blamed for not doing something with the information sooner.

From what I can see though, this is based on nothing but an assumption arising from the usual contempt and the "if SF are involved, its guilty till proven innocent' mindset that their critics seem to often take.

I wonder how many more weeks will pass before Cora Groogan decides to properly aid the search for 'truth and justice' her party blathers on about?

At a guess, it will be no longer or shorter then the amount of time major poltiical figures in the more commonly-accepted major Irish parties decided to wait before aiding the search for 'truth and justice' in the various tribunals we've had, despite their respective parties making the same "of course we will help in any way we can and urge anyone involved etc. etc." statements.

Or was Gerry Adam's call for those with information to contact the ombudsman merely a stunt?

I think you're confusing Gerry Adam's leadership of Sinn Fein with some godlike powers that the other party leaders in other parties don't have.

In my view, the party's hypocrisy and cynicism throughout has been as breathtaking as it’s been revolting.

I find it no different to the hypocrisy and cynicism demonstrated time and time again by pretty-much every major political party in Irish history. They talk the talk, and deliver something entirely different.

And, as with the other major political parties, we will see that come election day, such hypocrisy has far, far less effect than we believe it should.

gandalf

Ok the following are banned for a week thanks to their "contributions" to this thread.

OfflerCrocGod
lomb
FX Meister

Next time if you do not have anything that adds to the discussion except for a smart a$$ remark don't bother posting!!

Lemming

bonkey wrote:

From what I can see though, this is based on nothing but an assumption arising from the usual contempt and the "if SF are involved, its guilty till proven innocent' mindset that their critics seem to often take.

And why has such a mindset developed bonkey? Could it be to do with the absolute unaccountability? Whilst other parties are also quite quite guilty of said unaccountability, other parties are not involved with terrorism and all manner of criminal activity.

I gave SF/IRA the benefit of the doubt since the start of the GFA. I've yet to see them give anything to that agreement other than the usual platitudes of "we most all work together and be inclusive drone blah blah drone drone fart bullsh*t drone drone" that we hear from them.

I've, quite frankly (as if I hadn't already), had enough. They are taking the piss and have been from the start.

At a guess, it will be no longer or shorter then the amount of time major poltiical figures in the more commonly-accepted major Irish parties decided to wait before aiding the search for 'truth and justice' in the various tribunals we've had, despite their respective parties making the same "of course we will help in any way we can and urge anyone involved etc. etc." statements.

Again, can I point to the bit on terrorism & all manner of criminal activity not being the mantra of the other political parties? Granted some of their members are involved in white-collar crime, and the parties should (and do) get a bollocking for their inaction, but SF/IRA are taking the piss as I've said before.

I find it no different to the hypocrisy and cynicism demonstrated time and time again by pretty-much every major political party in Irish history. They talk the talk, and deliver something entirely different.

Failing to live up to an election promise on something like tax isn't quite the same as failing to live up to an agreed cease-fire or not engaging in serious criminal activity. THere is no such thing as a pick a'mix cease-fire or criminal law.

Incidentally ... I'm still waiting for an answer to my prior question. I want one of the apologists to answer please.

MT

I think you need to either reconsider your use of the word "urging", or the word "rule" in the above.

Urging people to do something is not a rule for anynoe. It still leaves the choice to the individual. Or are you saying that you'd like SF and/or the IRA to force anyone they believe knows something to report it?

Merely reflecting the contradictory use of language employed by SF. In their warped double speak language has taken on a new meaning. In my view, the following terms when employed by a party spokesperson, apologist etc. require a translation:

urge = instruct
search for justice = search for victimhood excluding all victims of the IRA
IRA investigation = violent interrogation involving torture
dissappeared = murdered and dumped in a bog
the reality is = our version of events
moving forward = lets shine the spotlight on someone else
human rights violations = violations by the PSNI, Gardai, British army but not the IRA
campaign of anti-republican vengeance = campaign for justice by the McCartneys
not crimes = crimes
crimes = wrongdoing on the part on anyone but Sinn Féin and the IRA
a punished informer = murdered mother of ten, Jean McConville
be careful now = enough of this justice for Robert McCartney stuff or we'll start a whispering campaign against you, ie. you're traitors to the cause of Republicanism
I saw nothing = saw everything but daren't say as I value my knee caps too much
an Ireland of equals = that is provided you're a party member.
the truth = the first victim of the 'peace process'

You see, I believe that Sinn Féin does lay down rules for what you can and can't do in the areas they control. For example it's verboten to join the police or provide them with information when the IRA has been involved in criminality. Of course, to admit such totalitarianism would be tantamount to political suicide. The self-styled campaigners for freedom and an end to oppression would be exposed as complete hypocrites. Hence, the value of double speak. When Gerry Adams 'urges' his community to act, I'm convinced he's really instructing them. It seems that SF very much do lay down rules of behaviour in their areas which are then enforced by the purveyors of community policing and justice - the IRA.

jman0

Lemming wrote:

So .... how would SF/IRA propose that the killers are "brought to justice"? I'm curious to hear the answer to this?

This is a silly question. You already know about the justice the IRA does. They courtmartialed the members involved and were prepared to shoot them. It's not really a question of what kind of justice the IRA wants, it's a question of what the McCartney's want. And apparently they told the IRA they didn't want the perpetrators shot.
As for SF, I suspect SF's answer would be that if it is a breakdown of discipline within the IRA than it is a matter for the IRA to address. Since SF doesn't recognize the police as a legitimate force they are politically incapable of recommending the RUC http://www.ruc.police.uk/ for justice.

Lemming

jman0 wrote:

This is a silly question. You already know about the justice the IRA does. They courtmartialed the members involved and were prepared to shoot them. It's not really a question of what kind of justice the IRA wants, it's a question of what the McCartney's want. And apparently they told the IRA they didn't want the perpetrators shot.
As for SF, I suspect SF's answer would be that if it is a breakdown of discipline within the IRA than it is a matter for the IRA to address. Since SF doesn't recognize the police as a legitimate force they are politically incapable of recommending the RUC http://www.ruc.police.uk/ for justice.

An IRA court-martial/kangaroo court is not transparent nor accountable. More importantly it is not recognised as a legitimate legal body (ohhhhhhh the irony) by anybody other than their deluded selves. So to claim that the IRA does "justice" is utterly and completely f*cking absurd. I expect more from a three year old child than such suggestions.

Has it registered with you [SF/IRA + apologists] that the reason teh McCartney family declined the IRA's "offer" was that they
a) wanted the people involved to face "proper" justice
b) didn't want to descend to SF/IRA's level
c) didn't want to sweep Robert's death away and demean it by pandering to SF/IRA and legitimising their "court-martial"
d) want to see the other 10 or so people involved brought to justice too and not just the scape-goats
e) have had enough of SF/IRA's methods of "community policing"


So once again I ask how they suggest that the perpetrators are brought to justice?

It's not a silly question. It's a rather straight-forward and rather sadly all-too-relevant question.

jman0

Lemming wrote:

So once again I ask how they suggest that the perpetrators are brought to justice?

It's not a silly question. It's a rather straight-forward and rather sadly all-too-relevant question.

And you've been given your answer. Sounds like you just don't like my opinion of their positions. But that's ok.

Lemming

jman0 wrote:

And you've been given your answer. Sounds like you just don't like my opinion of their positions. But that's ok.

That's because their position is unacceptable and is not "justice". It's criminal behaviour. So once again I'll ask. I want an answer that takes into account accountability, legitimate recognised law enforcement bodies and cease-fires.

Not some party-mantra. Just because somethign gets repeated ad nauseum does not make it true. You are aware of that little point right?

Seth Brundle

@jman0 - you were able to recently quote from the IRA's green book so I suspect that they are not just your "opinion of their positions"!

MT

Bonkey wrote:

It most certainly is. SF are treated as the omniscient powers who know everything about everyone who was involved, and as events come to light that may have previously unknown, SF get blamed for not doing something with the information sooner.

From what I can see though, this is based on nothing but an assumption arising from the usual contempt and the "if SF are involved, its guilty till proven innocent' mindset that their critics seem to often take.

Throughout the entire process Sinn Féin gave scant leeway to anyone else involved. The British, the Irish government and Unionists received nothing other than denunciations or condemnation for their efforts. Having taken such a one-sided, self-righteous line with everyone else the party shouldn’t be surprised when an equally hard-ball and unforgiving stance is adopted by the other protagonists.

With an armed and willing military wing to enforce their pronouncements SF do a pretty good impression of an omniscient power in the areas where they’ve gained political dominance.

When you establish yourself as an areas sole political representative, policing body, intelligence service, judicial authority, never mind the exclusive guarantors of the inhabitant’s human rights then there’s only one place where the buck stops when something goes catastrophically wrong. There is simply no one else in those areas to hold to account for policing, justice etc. Their guiding priciple in much of West Belfast may as well be l’etat c’est moi. If proper justice does not prevail in this case – not more murder or some other IRA equivalent – Sinn Féin must bare full responsibility.

Bonkey wrote:

At a guess, it will be no longer or shorter then the amount of time major poltiical figures in the more commonly-accepted major Irish parties decided to wait before aiding the search for 'truth and justice' in the various tribunals we've had, despite their respective parties making the same "of course we will help in any way we can and urge anyone involved etc. etc." statements.

Such comments smack of the moral equivalence that allows SF apologists to claim that at worst the party’s no worse than any other. But no mainstream Irish party has an active and armed military wing. None have assumed the exclusive capacity to interpret what are and are not crimes. All believe in universal human rights rather than making exceptions when the victims happen to have been brutalised by close associates. No Irish party is perfect but none are on a par with the undemocratic levels stooped to by Sinn Féin.

Bonkey wrote:

I think you're confusing Gerry Adam's leadership of Sinn Fein with some godlike powers that the other party leaders in other parties don't have.

As he and his party, not to mention the IRA, have acquired virtually every power attainable over the areas they control, godlike seems a pretty good description. Furthermore, the unquestioning fervour exhibited by supporters of Adam’s personality cult has begun in recent weeks to resemble something along the lines of religious fanaticism. It trully seems at times as if the bearded one has assumed the infallibility of a deity.

Bonkey wrote:

I find it no different to the hypocrisy and cynicism demonstrated time and time again by pretty-much every major political party in Irish history. They talk the talk, and deliver something entirely different.

I do. Regarding hypocrites elsewhere in the Irish political world the ‘something entirely different’ they deliver is usually the comparatively anodyne failings of spending cut backs, slower than expected economic growth or lengthening waiting lists. Unwelcome, yes, but nothing nearly as breathtakingly hypocritical as claiming the unrivalled position as the nation’s leading human rights campaigners while at the same time giving tacit support to an organisation that equates justice with bullets through knee caps - an organisation that thinks nothing of using murder to further it’s own political ends.

I'm afraid I’ve no time for moral equivalence where SF and the IRA’s concerned. The brutality dished out while claiming to champion the oppressed surpasses any of the electoral spin the democratic parties have indulged in over the years. I’ll take obfuscation over stealth taxes any day in place of spiel over ‘truth and justice’ while protecting killers in the community.

Bonkey wrote:

And, as with the other major political parties, we will see that come election day, such hypocrisy has far, far less effect than we believe it should.

Made all the less effective when several volleys of moral equivalence have been sprayed around the place to cloud the issue. I’ll expect plenty of sentiments along the lines of ‘sure, those cute whores in Fianna Fail's no better’ as all the rationalisation some will need to vote for Sinn Féin come the next election.

monument

jman0 wrote:

I wonder why the PSNI don't start arresting people that were inside the pub for conspiracy. Seems that would be a way to break the ice...

Or the PSNI/RUC could at least question everyone they've been told about - watching the BBC this evening they said that the PSNI/RUC will be questioning one person they know of 'soon' or when they think it's appropriate – seams a bit strange.

Cork

monument wrote:

Or the PSNI/RUC could at least question everyone they've been told about - watching the BBC this evening they said that the PSNI/RUC will be questioning one person they know of 'soon' or when they think it's appropriate – seams a bit strange.

It is very strange that

PSNI/RUC

be questionnning anybody.

The RUC are no more unlike the criminal IRA.

monument

If I want, I'll call the north's police the 'PSNI/RUC/RIC'. If you want to start a thread under the topic ‘Why do people refer to the PSNI as ‘PSNI/RUC’?’ you can, I may even reply to such a thread. However, I won’t be dragged so far off-topic here.

Cork

monument wrote:

If I want, I'll call the north's police the 'PSNI/RUC/RIC'. .

There is freedom of speech in this country. But there is no organisation called 'PSNI/RUC/RIC'

I am just pointing this out to people who are reading this thread.

It is a pity that the thugs in the IRA have not regard for the laws north or south of the boarder.