Should i buy a new graphics card..

ViperVenoM

hmm, havent been posting much due to WoW dominating my life :rolleyes:

but ive come to realise my card will struggle on a few games now :eek:

so i was wondering...does anyone know when the new cores are coming out..or should i buy 1 of the current ones..

also - is it worth flogging my s754 and moving to pci-express s939 ...

i just dont know, next student installment will be through soon and my birthdays in a few works so i could spare £200-£300 or so..if i sold my old stuff as well

what do you think?

padraigf

hmmm... the 9800xt is a pretty capable card. It can play hl2 pretty fine at 1024x768 with everything on high. there is always the hunger for more speed though

For that money youd probably be looking at a 6800NU and going for the overclock to GT i assume ? Or perhaps trying to find an x800xl agp, if they exist ?

Ciaran500

Its a little early to upgrade yet. Your current card will handle everything in the near futre and by the time you do need to upgrade the r500 and NV50 will be out.

BabyEater

I would stay where you are for the minute as you will have to speed a good bit too see any major inprovements.

ViperVenoM

Ciaran500 wrote:

Its a little early to upgrade yet. Your current card will handle everything in the near futre and by the time you do need to upgrade the r500 and NV50 will be out.

yes i considered this..but is there any date as to when the next cores are out?

if i got a rough date i would know how long i need to hang on

Azza

Nvidia have just releaved there 6800 cards with 512MB at the Cebit exibihition in germany.......what really is annoying me now is that nvidia's cards (pci-e) are so damn expensive. I mean yes they got SLI support but compared to ATI in the single card performance there just bad value.

gline

ViperVenoM wrote:

hmm, havent been posting much due to WoW dominating my life :rolleyes:

but ive come to realise my card will struggle on a few games now :eek:

so i was wondering...does anyone know when the new cores are coming out..or should i buy 1 of the current ones..

also - is it worth flogging my s754 and moving to pci-express s939 ...

i just dont know, next student installment will be through soon and my birthdays in a few works so i could spare £200-£300 or so..if i sold my old stuff as well

what do you think?

yeh i think you should upgrade to 939 and sell your 754 stuff to me, , hahahaha just kidding. If you can pick up a resonably cheap 2nd hand x800pro or xt or a 6800gt etc and flog your 9800xt for a decent enuf price than an upgrade will be well worth it, with a decent gpu block and a nice overclock you can be playing the likes of HL2 @ 1600x1200 at a decent fps

unkel

gline wrote:

flog your 9800xt for a decent enuf price

Won't be that much over the €100 mark now...

Azza wrote:

what really is annoying me now is that nvidia's cards (pci-e) are so damn expensive. I mean yes they got SLI support

Huh? The 3D1 SLI dual 6600GT card with great mobo and extras like wireless is €500. Cheaper than just the graphics card like a 6800U or X800XT for that. P1sses all over the X850XT in 3D05s
Check this out

Ciaran500

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33807765&highlight=r520

Looks like it will be Q3 2005 before you see the R520 and Nvidia have canned the r50.

BadCharlie

I would try and sell your ATI 9600Pro, then buy a better card. If your only going to get 100/120 for your 9800xt i dont think i would sell it. And nope dont upgrade computer it looks class at that clock speed.

ViperVenoM

*sob*

9800xt seems to be worth **** ...oh that sucks....maybe ill just wait for the next gen and dual core cpus...argh

alli can say is bugger :rolleyes:

jesus_thats_gre

I would persoanlly wait.. If you insist on upgrading I would stay away from ATI for this generation of cards as the Nvidia cards basically perfrom better and support more features while the X800 series if just an upgraded 9700 still (over simplified I know but it still just an evolution of a 2-3 year old design).. The next generation of cards will probably be around within 6 months and I would be holding out for these bad boys..

BloodBath

I would persoanlly wait.. If you insist on upgrading I would stay away from ATI for this generation of cards as the Nvidia cards basically perfrom better and support more features while the X800 series if just an upgraded 9700 still (over simplified I know but it still just an evolution of a 2-3 year old design).. The next generation of cards will probably be around within 6 months and I would be holding out for these bad boys..

The x850xt is the highest performing single card on the market atm. Whether it's older technology or not doesn't matter. The benchmarks speak for themselves.


BloodBath

gline

"If you insist on upgrading I would stay away from ATI for this generation of cards as the Nvidia cards basically perfrom better and support more features while the X800 series if just an upgraded 9700 still ""

??????? Where you getting your info. ATI seem to be kicking ass in single card setups. and afaik the only feature that nvidia support that ati doesnt is PS 3.0.

jessy

ViperVenoM wrote:

hmm, havent been posting much due to WoW dominating my life :rolleyes:

but ive come to realise my card will struggle on a few games now :eek:

so i was wondering...does anyone know when the new cores are coming out..or should i buy 1 of the current ones..

also - is it worth flogging my s754 and moving to pci-express s939 ...

i just dont know, next student installment will be through soon and my birthdays in a few works so i could spare £200-£300 or so..if i sold my old stuff as well

what do you think?

what Gfx card are you hoping to upgrad to?

jesus_thats_gre

BloodBath wrote:

The x850xt is the highest performing single card on the market atm. Whether it's older technology or not doesn't matter. The benchmarks speak for themselves.


BloodBath

gline wrote:

??????? Where you getting your info. ATI seem to be kicking ass in single card setups. and afaik the only feature that nvidia support that ati doesnt is PS 3.0.

The x800 evolved from the 9700 and 9800 designs while the 6800 series uses a brand new architecture design. I am not disputing that it a good card, I am simply suggesting that you would be better served getting a 6800 card now for longevity reasons because it supports more features and as such, should work out a better buy as games begin to use these features, pixel shaders 3.0 being a prime example. ATI have only recently regained the performace crown after releasing a revised version of the X800, i.e. the X850.

I am confident that in 12 months down the line, that new games running on the 6800 will peform better than the equivelent X800/850 card.. Nvidea are also on the brink of releasing a 512mb card which will probably regain the lead for Nvidia..

However, at the moment, it prob doesnt make all the much difference which brand of card you pick as they perform at similar levels. The 6800GT is the all round best buy for me though.

jessy

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Nvidea are also on the brink of releasing a 512mb card which will probably regain the lead for Nvidia..

Why? What advantage will 512mb Ram have over 256MB ram in performance at the min.

jesus_thats_gre

Not that much unless you are playing with high resolutions and AA and AF maxed out..

gline

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Not that much unless you are playing with high resolutions and AA and AF maxed out..

so at the moment its no real use and when its out im sure ati will have something better to counteract it as usually happens. At the moment ati is the better preformer

ViperVenoM

jessy wrote:

what Gfx card are you hoping to upgrad to?

well im open to both top end cards...6800gt (and flash it to an ultra) or an x850xt .and to pe speeds...i wanted to go PCI-Express....but i dont think its very feasable now as my birthday money has just had to go on a new ps2 just so i can play GT4 (last bugger packed up) so ill only have about £60-£70 left...and whatever id get if i sold my current stuff..maybe ill just look for a second hand card that craps on mine....which there seems to be a lot of :eek:

BadCharlie

jessy wrote:

Why? What advantage will 512mb Ram have over 256MB ram in performance at the min.

Well infact playing Doom3 with 512megs of video ram is better then playing it at 256megs. This is only when playing it at Ultra High detail and high res. So there you go 512megs of ram is been used but very slightly. Its the only game that i know of out there that makes use of that much ram

jesus_thats_gre

gline wrote:

so at the moment its no real use and when its out im sure ati will have something better to counteract it as usually happens. At the moment ati is the better preformer

Are you saying that 512mb wont improve performance?




Anyway, back to my point. While the current Nvidia and ATI cards are pretty much on a par peformance wise at the moment, I am pretty certain that the current Nvidia cards will beat the ATI cards in new games released in 12 or so months time. I believe this as the 6800 was developed more recently and incorportates features that will be adopted within the next year that the existing ATI cards do not offer.

Azza

I'm fairly certain the forthcoming ATI X950XT has all the fancy pixel and vertex shaders that the 6800 series has.

What other features does the 6800 series offer over ATI's current cards?

jessy

ViperVenoM wrote:

my birthday money has just had to go on a new ps2 just so i can play GT4

You could just get the ps2 emulator which would save you a few quid as for buying a second hand card, its not a bad idea, but i would be wondering why someone would be selling a top spec card, what would they upgrade to?

gline

Azza wrote:

What other features does the 6800 series offer over ATI's current cards?

Exactly what i was saying earlier

Ciaran500

By the time PS3.0 and 32bit precision become anyway standard the current cards that support it will be at the end of its life time. This is what happened with the 9800 series and will continue to happen with every generation of graphics cards.

jesus_thats_gre

Azza wrote:

I'm fairly certain the forthcoming ATI X950XT has all the fancy pixel and vertex shaders that the 6800 series has.

What other features does the 6800 series offer over ATI's current cards?

This is a significant enough difference..

Ciaran500

Which are?

This is the third time you have been asked this, just answer it.

jesus_thats_gre

Actually mis-read Azza'a previous post.. The X850 does not features the newer Pixel and Vertex shaders that are supported by the 6800.. Supporting PS 3.0 should make a significant difference as and when newer games begin to fully take advantage of it. Of the top of my head, I cannot think of other features the 6800 offers over the X800/850 series.

If the X850 does support them, then I am wrong.. I reckon it does not though.

tuxy

i havnt read the thread so sorry if it has already been said

ViperVenoM getting another 512mb of ram (you only have 512mb now if your sig is correct)
will give a far greater performance boot in game like world of warcraft then getting a new 3d card
anthing under 1gb of ram in that game and it will lock up bad in cities and area with alot of players

ViperVenoM

tuxy wrote:

i havnt read the thread so sorry if it has already been said

ViperVenoM getting another 512mb of ram (you only have 512mb now if your sig is correct)
will give a far greater performance boot in game like world of warcraft then getting a new 3d card
anthing under 1gb of ram in that game and it will lock up bad in cities and area with alot of players

my sig says 1024mb Geil ram...

not sure which pc your reading there

thats a good point that was mentioned tho..how can i pick up a top end second hand card ...as what can they themselves be upgrading to....ahh tis a tough 1...back to WoW tho

Azza

The current X800 and X850 do not have Pixel or Vertex shader 3.0.

I know of 2 games that use Pixel and Vertex shader 3.0

Far Cry is the first one. The use of pixel shader 3.0 offered minimal to no performance increase. I could not tell graphical if there was any improvement (but I'm not sure about last bit).

Pacific Fighters (which incidently does not correctly support SLI) uses both pixel and vertex shader to enable higher graphical settings for the landscapes. More accurately the ocean is rendered far more realisticly. The waves look much more realistic. Since the game is set mostly over sea its quite a nice feature. However I know with these features enabled the game will not run well on even very powerfull pcs (that includes either the 6800GT or Ultra cards). Bare that in mind with the fact that with SLI the game becomes graphicaly corrupt (albeit very fast) means hardly anyone uses the shaders.

Granted these shaders may become a plus in the future and these games where the first ones with these shaders and you would expect that they would fully take advantage of them. But the point is ATI is at no great loss without them currently. Its has a single card solution that is faster in both games. (SLI being ruled out in one) and ATI having a single card that although slower than SLI can still play the game at max settings with AA and AF at comfortable framerates. By the time more games start to use Shader/Pixel 3.0 ATI's next card with those features will be out the door.

jesus_thats_gre

Pretty much my pont Azza.. There is little doubt that PS3.0 will offer improvements once most games begin to take advantage of it.. Its a next generation feature so of course it is not going to offer much at the moment and ATI took a calculated gamble not to support it.. ATI's next card will support PS3.2 if I remember correctly..

However, my point that current Nividia cards should fare better 12 months down the line is still pretty valid. This only applies if you intend to keep the card for a long period of time. If you plan to change in 6 months again, it makes no difference.

Azza

I see your point. However if a person had opted the X800 ATI route he would have a card capable of playing older and current games faster now which compenstates for possible being slower in the next generation games.

There is also the possibility that the next generation of games which properly utilize the shaders may require a 512MB card to properly run. Which may obliged people to upgrade there ATI/Nvidia cards to a 512MB. Speculation on my part but I reckon it could happen.

Ciaran500

I think we are about two generation away from 512mb cards being used fully.

gline

Azza wrote:

There is also the possibility that the next generation of games which properly utilize the shaders may require a 512MB card to properly run. Which may obliged people to upgrade there ATI/Nvidia cards to a 512MB. Speculation on my part but I reckon it could happen.

I dont think that is going to happen with the next gen of games, like Ciaran500 said, probably 2 gens away, granted the next gen of games will probably have a bit of a benifit from more mem but not so much that it will require you to have 512meg to "properly run"

Azza

Probably but how many generations away are games that properly incorperate shader model 3.0 and above?

gline

Azza wrote:

Probably but how many generations away are games that properly incorperate shader model 3.0 and above away?

But your not going to "need" a card that supports ps3.0 to play them, im sure you will be able to play them at a slightly lower setting without PS 3, id say we are years away before you will actually need a card with ps 3.0 just to play a new title

Azza

Thats my point. Its no great loss to have gone ATI. Its not that I have anything against Nvidia (I have had cards from both and none have ever given me issues)
Not much to choose between in the single card department. I like nvidia's better driver support for linux however..

gline

well that is one thing i like about nvidia, i do prefer their drivers, i prefer using them to ati's

Azza

Gainward (and XFX)have been showing off there 512MB 6800 Ultras in SLI at the cebit in Germany.

Interestingly was the pirce. Gainward will be selling them in a bundle of 2 for €1100 euro.

Using logic one could conclude that the there going sell for €550 seperatly. Which is exactly what you would expect to pay for current 256MB cards. Either the price is going be higher for seperate cards or the 256MB cards will have the price value drop.

Also the card where running at a core/memory speed of 450mhz/1200mhz as opposed to what the 256mb cards run at now 400mhz/1100mhz.

jesus_thats_gre

gline wrote:

But your not going to "need" a card that supports ps3.0 to play them, im sure you will be able to play them at a slightly lower setting without PS 3, id say we are years away before you will actually need a card with ps 3.0 just to play a new title

Using that analogy, would you prefer to run HL2 on a DirectX 8 card or a DirectX 9 card? You may not need a PS3.0 compatible card but it should be a better experience. Sure you might as well just stick with a 9800 and 60 frames a second. You don't need 100 fps to play the game..

jesus_thats_gre

So back to my point, considernig the 6800 was developed as a brand new architecture, supports newer features and more than holds its own in the current generation of games next to ATI cards.... The 6800 is a better long term buy..

jessy

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

So back to my point, considernig the 6800 was developed as a brand new architecture, supports newer features and more than holds its own in the current generation of games next to ATI cards.... The 6800 is a better long term buy..

Not to keep on with the same point here, but no its not, you cant talk long term when it comes to hardware, take a gxf card from a year and a half ago and try runing farcry on max detail with it, same will be true for the current generation of cards in 1.5-2 years time. the best card to get is basicaly whaterver is best now, nobody will(should) get a 6800U or x850XT cos there looking to future proof or even thinking past 1 year.
just my opinion

jesus_thats_gre

Thats fair enough to.. I did say that if you planned to keep it for a short while and upgrade again this year it would make no difference what you bought now..

Azza

What about the people that bought both of em?

po0k

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Using that analogy, would you prefer to run HL2 on a DirectX 8 card or a DirectX 9 card? You may not need a PS3.0 compatible card but it should be a better experience. Sure you might as well just stick with a 9800 and 60 frames a second. You don't need 100 fps to play the game..

Actually, from what I read on Anandtech (albeit about a month ago), enabling DX9 on certain cards (can't remember exact model/manufacturer) hits the framerate by about 20%

jesus_thats_gre

SyxPak wrote:

Actually, from what I read on Anandtech (albeit about a month ago), enabling DX9 on certain cards (can't remember exact model/manufacturer) hits the framerate by about 20%

This is because of improved image quality and other DirectX9 effects that would be utilised.

I think you missed the point of my analogy though..

gline

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

So back to my point, considernig the 6800 was developed as a brand new architecture, supports newer features and more than holds its own in the current generation of games next to ATI cards.... The 6800 is a better long term buy..

You keep saying newer FEATURES, what features??? youve only mentioned Pixel/vertex shader 3.0, which is only utilised in a handful of games but has been out for the best part of a year (so game developers must not be in a big rush to start using it). So by the time most games start using it, ATI will probably have it in their cards also.

astrofool

well, look at it this way, the geforce fx was very competitive with the 9x00 series of graphics cards(even beating them alot of the time), until all the dx9 games started appearing. But NOW, anyone who got a 5950 ultra gets very bad performance, whereas someone who bought a much cheaper(at the time), 9800pro, still has a very usable graphics card for the latest games, only bettered recently by the 6600gt mainstream wise.

Not that is definitely going to happen, but the 6800 due to ps3(not playstation3..) will probably have more legs in its architecture than an x850xt PE. Not definitely (it certainly wasn't definite with the FX series until hl2 came out), but maybe. So if history repeats, the 6800 will be a better buy, if not, the x850xt PE will be, as it scores slightly better in some games.

EITHER way, both cards are more than enough to play ALL current games, so buying one for the future, the better choice is probably the 6800 (esp. the sli ones as you can add performanace later, and will probs have a higher resale value).

BloodBath

Not that is definitely going to happen, but the 6800 due to ps3(not playstation3..) will probably have more legs in its architecture than an x850xt PE. Not definitely (it certainly wasn't definite with the FX series until hl2 came out), but maybe. So if history repeats, the 6800 will be a better buy, if not, the x850xt PE will be, as it scores slightly better in some games.

What are you talking about. The fx series was dire compared to the ati cards long before hl2 came out. All ranges of the cards low, medium and high end were well beaten by their ati equivalent. The 5950 was about the only decent buy but it still wasn't as good as a 9800pro.


BloodBath