Describe irish political parties in a nutshell

leahcim

Hi,

I am trying to figure out what each of our political parties stand for.

Would the following be correct?

Fianna Fail :
Believe in lower corporate taxation to generate wealth by creating jobs to pay for social services. Wealthy people pay for private health care etc the less well off get taken care of by the state.

Fine Gael :
Same as Fianna Fail but traditionally had a more rural focus.

PD :
Like Finna Fail but believe more in creating personal wealth to pay for services.

Labour :
Believe in high personal taxation where all social services are paid for by the state.

Green Party :
Like Labour but with an environmental focus.

Sin Fein :
Like Labour but percieved to to be better local activists.

Thanks,
leachim.

bobbyjoe

Describe irish political parties in a nutshell

Squashed really close together shouting "help help I'm trapped in a nutshell"

Sorry

Leaving now....................

oceallachain

I think this is an interesting Question and one that I can't really answer. I never really understood how the large USA could get by with 2 political parties and we have 4 or 5 times more and would ya look at the size of us.

I'd love someone who knew what they were talking about to answer this.

Badabing

I think you got it basicilly spot on, Sinn Fein would be further left than Labour similar to Joe Higgins Socailist party, we know what there against but what are they for in terms of tax, waste management,transport etc...

spanner

i think ff, fg, and labour are all fighting for some space in the centre

IronMan

Sinn Fein like to put the image across they are of the left, but in reality they are fascists, with a private army and a refusal to accept the laws and ethics of the countrry.

gom

Hi leahcim et al,
leahcim, you either vote FF or no one at all. Your desciptions of Irish Political Party ideals are completely well off the mark. What you should do is look at the actions of the parties. Not what you belief to be the situation from reteric or meida reports.

I'll take a shot at it so:

Fianna Fail:
Populist true and true. Do nothing until its too late then blame the Market system. Dancing between Centre and Centre-Right politics. Belief in the use of Kynesist policies in action but never admit to it. Describe themselfs as Republican as they don't really have any unifying image for all the party to follow. Many of the issues TDs focus on are purely local and do so because FF has succeeded in weakening Local democracy especially in Dublin. Very reliant on swing votes.

Fine Gael:
Used to be Left-of-Centre but only on Civil Rights and not economic grounds. Presently and probably for the medium to long-term also a Centre-Right party(more right than FF). Belief in Supply-Side Economics and would probably avoid election spending sprees like FF. FG is not just a Farmers party. However, It has a history of Social Democracy so has a habit of taking Labour votes in rural areas(probably will change after the next general as all the Social Democrats are gone since 2002). PDs are its number one enemy as they have similar policies on crime and budget balancing.

Labour:
History of Democractic Socialism but presently changing into more of a Third Way party. Rebranded to "Fair Society". Labour has no history of running huge fiscal deficits unlike FF and differ from other European Social Democractic parties in that regard. While many in the media(especially the Indo and tony o'reilly) rant about taxes sky rocketing under Labour I think all they would do is remove the loopholes that FF have created such as Tax Free stud farming etc. Historically in the left, Labour is now very comfortible as a Left-of-Centre/Centre-Left party. Populist on Crime. Can claim to have a core vote of 15% of the population. Main rival FF and apathy in the middle classes and SF in the working class.

Sinn Fein:
Is the IRA. Marxist. I would not see them raising any longer for the next 10 years thanks to recent feck ups.

PDs:
Believe in Regressive Taxation, Minimal state involvment and individualisation of society. Neo-Liberial economics through and through. Throw away the key crime policy. Anti-Immigration. Anti-Civil Liberties. The party of those that think they are wealthy. Main enemy is a recession or a more rightwing FG.

BlitzKrieg

shouldnt the historical factors surronding the parties be taken into account in some form?

I mean Fianna Fail was Devalera's party and is seen as repbulican because it was the party which got rid of the treaty etc. And this makes the populist image of the party more accessible.


Fine Gael: Successors to Cumhan na Gheal more right wing, less populist more focused (in my view) on practical economic policies.

Sinn Fien: Historically linked to extreme republican...today has marxist elements.

Roisin Dubh

Fianna Fail: Party with no ideology other than Republicanism. Policies vary depending on Coalition partner, except when they feel the wind is blowing in a particular direction they will follow it.

FG: Party with no ideology other than partitionism and pro-Unionism, and whatever its Coalition partner wants. It's Coalition partner is always Labour so they will not want to rock the boat so they will not try to privatise anything (unfortunately) when in power.

Labour: Socialist dinosaurs whose main driving force is protecting the power of the trade-unions. To this end, they oppose introducing competition against semi-state companies. Supposedly anti-inflation yet seemingly oblivious to the inflationary affects of protecting the monopolies from having to engage in price wars with competitors. VERY liberal on immigration as witnessed by their constant protesting that our asylum-system is somehow too strict, and their opposition to the Citizenship amendment. Labelling those favouring tighter immigration controls as racist, e.g. Labour's Brendan Ryan before the Citizenship poll. Pro abortion rights (I have mixed views on this). Supports Gay civil unions and this is the only really good aspect of the party for me.

PD: Liberal party supporting the right of the Irish consumer to choice what companies provides services for them. Portrayed as fascist by their leftwing opponents. Favouring giving the Irish worker back more of their hard-earned cash, instead of throwing it away on inefficient state programs that, due to a lack of profit motive, have no incentive to spend it wisely. Believes in creating a climate favourable to multinational investment, with low corporation taxes, and freedom from excessive red-tape and excessive trade-union powers. Personally, I feel closest in political ideology to this party, but if they don't put a candidate in my area, I can't vote for them.

SF: Not even a slightly constitutional party. A party whose leaders were largely in the IRA in the past, and whose leaders are alleged to have had involvement in planning the Northern Bank robbery - which did nothing for a "free Ireland". Seems to believe that the IRA is incapable of committing crime. Forever blaming labyrintine conspiracies of British securocrats and Irish political Establishment for allegations against SF. The most leftwing of Irish political parties, supporting high taxes on business which would drive away the multinationals upon which we depend. Claims descent from the Old IRA 1919-1921, which actually is an insult to those who fought a campaign back then which did not primarily target civilians. Fiercely hostile to the EU. Even so, I might have voted for them years ago if I lived in NI, simply to express my intense hatred of the border. But no way down here! And now, I am not sure I could vote for them in NI.

Greens: Good points: Environmentalism and correctly supporting moving Ireland away from pollution and towards renewable energy of the non-nuclear/non-Chernobylesque kind. Bad points:Anti European, too left wing, favouring oppressive taxes on businesses.

There!

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

billy the squid

PD: Liberal party supporting the right of the Irish consumer to choice what companies provides services for them.

yet they allowed foreign companies buy up our local and national independent radio stations. yet the persons right to choice in radio in this country is proportional to the number of people living around you. yeah if the progressive democrats are in favour of competition then lets see it in the broadcasting sector i.e. more local radio stations. Tim o malley promised to address this issue when he was canvassing for the last election, he even went on local unlicenced station RLO to promise it. still no new licences.

Favouring giving the Irish worker back more of their hard-earned cash,

Tell that to the poor bastard who is going to have to pay for medicines that they cannot afford, thanks to mary harneys new KVI medical card. and you can add €40 per anum levy on credit cards, the increase in government charges in general. up something like 104 percent over the last 3 years.(source)

instead of throwing it away on inefficient state programs that, due to a lack of profit motive, have no incentive to spend it wisely.

*cough*port tunnel*cough*LUAS*cough*

both necessary developments but the cost of both spirelled out of controll far beyond what the people building them promised.

Believes in creating a climate favourable to multinational investment,

I'm sure the business people in Dundrum whose shops are being demolished to make way for the international chainstores are singing the praises of the government.

Nuttzz

billy the squid wrote:

yet they allowed foreign companies buy up our local and national independent radio stations. yet the persons right to choice in radio in this country is proportional to the number of people living around you. yeah if the progressive democrats are in favour of competition then lets see it in the broadcasting sector i.e. more local radio stations. Tim o malley promised to address this issue when he was canvassing for the last election, he even went on local unlicenced station RLO to promise it. still no new licences.

this is the communication ministers remit, who happens to be a FF minister

billy the squid wrote:

Tell that to the poor bastard who is going to have to pay for medicines that they cannot afford, thanks to mary harneys new KVI medical card. and you can add €40 per anum levy on credit cards, the increase in government charges in general. up something like 104 percent over the last 3 years.(source)

all public sector charges are controlled by the dept of finance, which happens to be controled by an FF minister

billy the squid wrote:

*cough*port tunnel*cough*LUAS*cough*

*cough* transport *cough* FF *cough*

billy the squid wrote:

I'm sure the business people in Dundrum whose shops are being demolished to make way for the international chainstores are singing the praises of the government.

see Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown County Council for this who allowed the planning on this, not a government decision

logonapr

Fianna Fail :
Traditional, Rural party of the centre. Tolerates corruption & low standards.

Fine Gael :
Even more rural party than FF and hence it attracts farming voters. Doesn't know what it stands for and spends more time opposing whatever FF stands for than trying to be unique

PD :
Splinter from FF. Middle class support and policies tending towards the right

Labour :
A very slightly left wing party that endeavours to attract the working vote by putting forward well heeled candidates

Green Party :
Eccentric policies usually based more on idealism than on practicalities. Why let logic get in the way

Sinn Fein :
Wrap the Green flag around me party that is hugely infiltrated by Thugs & Criminals of all kinds

esperanza

Roisin Dubh wrote:

Greens: Good points: Environmentalism and correctly supporting moving Ireland away from pollution and towards renewable energy of the non-nuclear/non-Chernobylesque kind. Bad points:Anti European, too left wing, favouring oppressive taxes on businesses.

I disagree with your statement that the Irish Green Party is anti-European.

Admittedly, the European Greens tend to either have a pro-European or anti-European stance, namely in Denmark and Germany respectively. In the case of the Irish Greens, however, John Gormley and Patricia Mc Kenna have repeatedly stated that their party is pro-European.

I think you also have to define what kind of Europe the Irish Green Party is opposing or has opposed to date. The EU of today is a Europe where individual countries are losing their voice in a Europe of 25 and growing (Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey and Croatia, next on the list for membership). Also, the Lisbon Agenda, which has the aim of making Europe a counterweight to the United States by strengthening Europe's economic, military and political power on the international stage, has many opponents and quite rightly too.

It is clear that enlargement is one of the strategies employed by the EU in order for the EU to become the US's equal. In my opinion, while European enlargement does offer great opportunities to disadvantaged countries - in fact, many new members see Ireland as a model to follow in terms of economic growth - you have to look closely to see whether these new members will be allowed to make real contributions to the decision-making process in today's Europe.

I think Europe is a good thing, but if smaller countries lose decision-making powers this could have drastic consequences, as power-playing will become primordial in Europe's quest to compete with the US.

If you think the Green Party is anti-European, it is most likely because the party opposes the kind of Europe in construction today: a Europe, in which only the big players make the decisions and the smaller players are powerless.

Sorry, if I haven't supported my statements ... however, this document more or less explains the Greens' opposition to the Nice Treaty and hence, explains why most Irish people view the Green Party as anti-European. A more abstract view of Green Party politics should be adhered to before incorrectly classifying this party.

http://www.pmckenna.com/agenda/treaty/nice/green-position.html

Roisin Dubh

esperanza wrote:

I disagree with your statement that the Irish Green Party is anti-European.

Admittedly, the European Greens tend to either have a pro-European or anti-European stance, namely in Denmark and Germany respectively. In the case of the Irish Greens, however, John Gormley and Patricia Mc Kenna have repeatedly stated that their party is pro-European.

I think you also have to define what kind of Europe the Irish Green Party is opposing or has opposed to date. The EU of today is a Europe where individual countries are losing their voice in a Europe of 25 and growing (Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey and Croatia, next on the list for membership). Also, the Lisbon Agenda, which has the aim of making Europe a counterweight to the United States by strengthening Europe's economic, military and political power on the international stage, has many opponents and quite rightly too.

It is clear that enlargement is one of the strategies employed by the EU in order for the EU to become the US's equal. In my opinion, while European enlargement does offer great opportunities to disadvantaged countries - in fact, many new members see Ireland as a model to follow in terms of economic growth - you have to look closely to see whether these new members will be allowed to make real contributions to the decision-making process in today's Europe.

I think Europe is a good thing, but if smaller countries lose decision-making powers this could have drastic consequences, as power-playing will become primordial in Europe's quest to compete with the US.

If you think the Green Party is anti-European, it is most likely because the party opposes the kind of Europe in construction today: a Europe, in which only the big players make the decisions and the smaller players are powerless.

Sorry, if I haven't supported my statements ... however, this document more or less explains the Greens' opposition to the Nice Treaty and hence, explains why most Irish people view the Green Party as anti-European. A more abstract view of Green Party politics should be adhered to before incorrectly classifying this party.

http://www.pmckenna.com/agenda/treaty/nice/green-position.html

Entitled to your opinion. However, if the Greens are opposed to a counterweight to the US, even in economic/trade terms, then is this not self-defeating, considering their constant criticism of US foreign-policy? I feel that a larger EU, with a larger share of world trade than a US-led trading bloc, will be better able to promote European values of democracy and human rights via trade-sanctions on countries like Israel,Belarus, Burma etc. It's no good for the Greens to make these criticisms of the US while simultaneously trying to frustrate efforts to improve the lot of those harmed by US foreign-policies.

I reject your claim that the big countries are taking over. One of the reasons why the French referendum on the EU Constitution looks like its going to be close is that many French people feel that enlargement means that they no longer have the kind of power their country once had in the smaller EU, since France and Germany can now be outvoted much easier in terms of their initiatives being blocked.

esperanza

Most French people are actually in favour of the EU Constitution. Nikolas Sarkozy , head of the UMP is calling for a "Yes" vote on May 29 and the PS has an aggressive "Yes" campaign. Opposition is coming from, not surprisingly, Le Pen's FN. It is primarily the entry of Turkey into the EU which the French are increasingly opposing.

The language used in the Constitution is incomprehensible for most average French citizens. French legalese is renowned for its ambiguities and high register. So, in reality, the French have little idea about what they are voting for or against.

FTA69

IronMan wrote:

Sinn Fein like to put the image across they are of the left, but in reality they are fascists

So we are "fascists" as well as "Marxists", and people like Dick Roche also label us with capitalist traits eg "Armani Shinners". Perhaps people might want to clarify exactly what we are? To examine these labels:

Facist; often Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Regarding, dictatorship, do we seek to install Gerry Adams as Das Fuhrer? No we don't.

Do we suppress our opposition through censorship? No, in fact we were victims of that policy ourselves.

Are we an advocate of racism? No, and our policies on and work with immigrants prove that. So we can now safely say Sinn Féin are not "Fascists".

Regarding Marxism;

The political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in which the concept of class struggle plays a central role in understanding society's allegedly inevitable development from bourgeois oppression under capitalism to a socialist and ultimately classless society.

Now when was the last time Sinn Féin advocated the overthrow of the "bourgeoisie" and the establishment of workers' soviets which were to be used to control the means of production and distribution? When did we last profess to follow the "political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels"?

I think we can also safely say Sinn Féin are not Communist.

Sinn Féin is a left-wing party which seeks to create a unitary Irish state with an equitable social system.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

So we are "fascists" as well as "Marxists", and people like Dick Roche also label us with capitalist traits eg "Armani Shinners". Perhaps people might want to clarify exactly what we are?

A hypocritical mish mash of all three?

Regarding, dictatorship, do we seek to install Gerry Adams as Das Fuhrer? No we don't.

You seek a 32 county socialist Republic...
Not much of a majority here for the socialist part,the rest is fine, except you pander to people who wanted to bring this about by revolutionary means, ie guerilla warfare without the consent of the people and still do given that they wont call it a day.
So yeah,I'd say that pretty much equates to dictatorship, yeah.

Now when was the last time Sinn Féin advocated the overthrow of the "bourgeoisie" and the establishment of workers' soviets which were to be used to control the means of production and distribution? When did we last profess to follow the "political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels"?

when you created love in ties to Fidel Castro's Cuban regime perhaps...?
Oh wait he runs a dictatorship aswell,a model for all of ye to follow

FTA69

You seek a 32 county socialist Republic...

I thought we were Fascist/Capitalist/Communists?

Not much of a majority here for the socialist part,the rest is fine, except you pander to people who wanted to bring this about by revolutionary means, ie guerilla warfare without the consent of the people and still do given that they wont call it a day.
So yeah,I'd say that pretty much equates to dictatorship, yeah.

Sinn Féin (nor the IRA for that matter) has always professed an equitable social system can only come about through the consent of the people.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

I thought we were Fascist/Capitalist/Communists?

Well I did say a hypocritical mish mash.
The fascist part comes from your advocacy of IRA punishment killings being justified(and you are here advocating we vote for Sinn Féin aswell) especially in the they danced on his head thread and others,coupled with the fact that Sinn Féin wont declare those type of things a crime.
They'll now say they were wrong but by virtue of not declaring them a crime(and ergo meaning they are not punishable in a transparent democratic way by the state) and thats where the fascist part comes from.

As I say a hypocritical mish mash of all three.

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

So we are "fascists" as well as "Marxists", and people like Dick Roche also label us with capitalist traits eg "Armani Shinners". Perhaps people might want to clarify exactly what we are? To examine these labels:



Regarding, dictatorship, do we seek to install Gerry Adams as Das Fuhrer? No we don't.

Do we suppress our opposition through censorship? No, in fact we were victims of that policy ourselves.

Are we an advocate of racism? No, and our policies on and work with immigrants prove that. So we can now safely say Sinn Féin are not "Fascists".

Regarding Marxism;



Now when was the last time Sinn Féin advocated the overthrow of the "bourgeoisie" and the establishment of workers' soviets which were to be used to control the means of production and distribution? When did we last profess to follow the "political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels"?

I think we can also safely say Sinn Féin are not Communist.

Sinn Féin is a left-wing party which seeks to create a unitary Irish state with an equitable social system.

not fascist
not communist

but a strong totalitarian streak????

FTA69

The fascist part comes from your advocacy of IRA punishment killings being justified(and you are here advocating we vote for Sinn Féin aswell) especially in the they danced on his head thread and others,coupled with the fact that Sinn Féin wont declare those type of things a crime.

I believe I blatantly pointed out the fact that Sinn Féin opposed such activities and I even provided a link to West Tyrone Sinn Féin condemning it. To actually address the reasons behind such attacks is not equated with fascism.

FTA69

cdebru wrote:

not fascist
not communist

but a strong totalitarian streak????

Such as?

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

I believe I blatantly pointed out the fact that Sinn Féin opposed such activities and I even provided a link to West Tyrone Sinn Féin condemning it. To actually address the reasons behind such attacks is not equated with fascism.

Well you see if you go back and read my post again , you will see that I get the fascist description from your approval of IRA torturing and killing informers and you say this while you also say you are a member of Sinn Féin
That and they not saying such things are crimes ie not punishable by the state but rather left to an IRA kangeroo court.
Now thats closer to fascism than democracy.
It's a hypocritical mish mash of socialism,fascism and communistic dictatorship when you factor in the Castro love in.

FTA69

Ok, so the refusal to condemn the killing of informers makes one a fascist? By that logic the IRB, IRA, Free French and ANC were all "fascists". Fascism is a defined system of government, it isn't a slur to be thrown about by people at those who they might disagree with.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

Ok, so the refusal to condemn the killing of informers makes one a fascist? By that logic the IRB, IRA, Free French and ANC were all "fascists". Fascism is a defined system of government, it isn't a slur to be thrown about by people at those who they might disagree with.

Well I dont know about those types of statements,I mean the catholic church took part in the spanish inquisition, but that was a long time ago-the catholic church as they exist today are not murderers that I'm aware of.
IRA people who have been convicted of murder are though,albeit people gave them the benefit of the doubt on that for the sake of a peace process,they still are legally people who committed murder for a cause otside of the law and without the will of the people of Ireland behind.
I would think that summarally executing someone outside of the law of the land and proclaiming the right to do so because you are the law of the land when you are not is more of a fascist trait than a democratic one
From dictionary.com

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Now not condemning punishment killings and the missing bodies of the "disappeared" is to not condemn a fascist act.
To call it not a crime is to make calling it wrong hollow as it leaves the say so up to the unelected IRA and not the actual law of the land.
I think the better description would be that Sinn Féin is not a fascist party per say, its an apoligist party for the fascist IRA.

FTA69

Rock Climber wrote:

IRA people who have been convicted of murder are though,albeit people gave them the benefit of the doubt on that for the sake of a peace process,they still are legally people who committed murder for a cause otside of the law and without the will of the people of Ireland behind.

The extra-judicial killing of someone does not automatically equate with fascism at all, and my point still stands, if you apply that logic to South Africa the ANC would be considered "Fascists" as would the 1916 rebels etc. The ANC were outside the "law of the land" as were the 1916 rebels who hadn't the "will of the people behind". The term fascism applies to the fascist system of government and nothing else.

In the definition you posted from dictionary.com a hallmark of fascism is mentioned, that being censorship of opposition views. Are all the Dublin and British Governments from between 1973 and 1993 "fascists" for their censorship campaign? Your definition of the term is too loose to have any credence to be honest.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

In the definition you posted from dictionary.com a hallmark of fascism is mentioned, that being censorship of opposition views. Are all the Dublin and British Governments from between 1973 and 1993 "fascists" for their censorship campaign? Your definition of the term is too loose to have any credence to be honest.

Well if you want to nit pick, one could argue that Mrs McConville had an opposing view to the IRA on British soldiers, so she got the ultimate censorship , she was murdered.
Regarding section 31, well no they were only understandably censored from the broadcast media, as back then there was even less distinction between the murderers and the politicians than there is now,they kept repeating how good the IRA were for bombing and shooting and the Irish people kept electing governments that supported the broadcast censorship of that message.

The extra-judicial killing of someone does not automatically equate with fascism at all, and my point still stands, if you apply that logic to South Africa the ANC would be considered "Fascists" as would the 1916 rebels etc. The ANC were outside the "law of the land" as were the 1916 rebels who hadn't the "will of the people behind". The term fascism applies to the fascist system of government and nothing else.

I see so you cant be a fascist unless you run a government-thats a new one on me and I suspect, most everybody else aswell.
As regards, your historical examples,I thought I told you that the catholic church were responsible for the spanish inquisition, but that doesnt mean they are all murderers today... they've long long since discontinued the practice.
On the other hand, the IRA released a statement the other day, indicating that they were willing to sumarally shoot 3 men with out a by you or leave you to the law of the land.
Theres also plenty of anecdotal evidence quoted to you in various threads here on this forum of their brutish attitude towards anyone that opposes them.
Now I see you went ahead with your last post yet ignored my clarification of what I thought would be a better description of SF, yes I think they are a mish mash of all three but as for the fascist part...I'll settle for this quote of myself:

Rock Climber wrote:

I think the better description would be that Sinn Féin is not a fascist party per say, its an apoligist party for the fascist IRA.

Ok 11 posts about one party here, where there are enough threads discussing them already.
If this continues the thread will be closed.

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

Such as?

totalitarian

Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed

i think that describes some aspects of sinn fein better than the label fascist or communist

political differences and open discussion are not tolerated in sinn fein in general the leadership tells the party what the line is and the membership follows or leaves

various attempted debates on abortion at ard fheis for example were supressed i still don't know if sinn fein has formulated a policy

the GFA there was little or no discussion within sinn fein the leadership decided this was the party line shape up or ship out even though it went against everything sinn fein had being fighting for no discussion


sinn fein complain about political censorship yet they are not very tolerant of opposing views within the nationalist community in the north

the PSNI at the moment they are unacceptable yet we all know that they nearly became acceptable in december and they will be acceptable in a few months once the leadership decide

when the independent republican councillor from newry i believe called for people to pass information on the murder of robert mccartney he was branded a tout by local sinn fein councillors yet when adams says much the same thing he is given a standing ovation

esperanza

Earthman wrote:

Ok 11 posts about one party here, where there are enough threads discussing them already.
If this continues the thread will be closed.

Yeah, I'm sick of this Sinn Fein/IRA thread too! Have a private conversation!

billy the squid

Nuttzz wrote:

this is the communication ministers remit, who happens to be a FF minister

The progressive Democrats are in the perfect position to encourage the government to reform broadcasting legislation with regard to liberalising the media. but they have not done this. After staying quiet about the likes of Tim O'Malley using unlicenced stations to electioneer for the 2002 election they quietly snubbed the representatives of these stations. by passing the buck onto someone else. The point being thet the progressive Democrats are nothing but a party of empty promises.

The same goes for the medical cards. They promised X number of medical cards and finally pulled back on that one also, offering the cheaper (for them) option.

all public sector charges are controlled by the dept of finance, which happens to be controled by an FF minister

In order to get a finance bill into law, the minister for finance would have had to get the approval of the Progressive Democrats given that they are the ones keeping the government in power. they sat there and did nothing while money was being stripped from people that hadn't got it.

see Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown County Council for this who allowed the planning on this, not a government decision

As minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment, mary harney was in a position to protect those being dislocated and left without premisesis thanks to Dundrum Shopping Centre. While the granting of planning permission to said shopping centre was the remit of Dun Laoire county council, it is however the remit of the Minister for enterprise trade and employment to protect those being put out of work. Who do you think sets up these task forces when some factory closes down. it is not the county councils.

there has been no such task force been set up for dislocated businesses in Dundrum.

AngelofFire

Fianna Fail-Corrupt populist right of centre party, gets much of its vote because of old family loyalities. No clear ideological foundation, but getting into power and holding on to it.

Fine gael-Ditto, except even more conservative on social issues and more pro european.

Labour-Irelands main stream left wing party. For a fair and equitable tax systen, better funded social services and propotionate distribution of the wealth of the celtic tiger. Liberal leaning on social issues. Have interchangable socialist and social democratic policies.

PDs- Right of centre party, see monetarist policies as the only way forward for Ireland. Pro IBEC, pro business employer and anti welfare. Claim to be a 'Liberal' party but under Michael Mcdowell we have seen mass deportations, restriction of pub opening hours, attempts to arm an unaccountable police force with weapons such as tear gas, and plans to bring in On the spot fines.

Green Party-Eco friendly party, in favour of maximising civil and human liberty, strongly supportive of Local Government.

Sinn Fein- Republican party linked to the IRA. Up north they are Conservative, they even privatised the education system. But down south they claim to be marxist in order to appeal to working class voters, nontheless they have many individuals who actually mean it.

Socialist Party- Marxist-Lenninst Cult like organisation, deeply secterian in outlook, Seek abolition of the market, get most of their support from initiatives such as anti bin and water tax campaigns.

Christian Solidarity party- Consists mainly of middle aged men. Zealously anti abortion, even though none of these people will never have to experience anything like the trauma of a Crisis preganancy

Roisin Dubh

PDs- Right of centre party, see monetarist policies as the only way forward for Ireland. Pro IBEC, pro business employer and anti welfare. Claim to be a 'Liberal' party but under Michael Mcdowell we have seen mass deportations, restriction of pub opening hours, attempts to arm an unaccountable police force with weapons such as tear gas, and plans to bring in On the spot fines.

Anti-welfare? What evidence have you for that? Mary Harney has boasted that the old-age pension is heading towards 200 euro a month.

Being a liberal means being liberal on most issues. That doesn't have to include immigration to classify someone as a "liberal". I consider myself a liberal, but not where immigration is concerned.

AngelofFire

Whats your views on things like tear gas, water cannons and on the spot fines then roisin?

Roisin Dubh

AngelofFire wrote:

Whats your views on things like tear gas, water cannons and on the spot fines then roisin?

I'm not aware of any party talking about those? I don't agree with them, unless there is absolute an total anarchy.

Nuttzz

billy the squid wrote:

there has been no such task force been set up for dislocated businesses in Dundrum.

the centre is only open, its hard to see if there has been a negative impact from them yet, more people in dundrum can only help retail outlets imo.


as for local radio, its small fry in the overall scheme of things, fight the battles you can win, if local radio isnt one of them why bother it isnt a major vote winner.

Harney is only in the DOH a wet day, lets see what happens over the comming months and years

Sand

Fianna Fail/Fianna Gael: Two sides of the same coin though theyd both deny it. Both tend to be populist parties, with a loyalty base built on divisions 80 years ago. FF tends slightly more to the left, FG slightly more liberal both in economic and social policy. The vast sway of political idealogies their members possess might be spoken of as a strenth but in actuality means no one knows WTF they stand for. The malaise of Irish politics has been their bitter historical rivalry and how it has obscured real political issues and led to some awkward coalitions just to keep the other crowd out.

Labour: Social Democrats. Party of the otherwise non-aligned (see above) middle class. Rather boring. Tells you what you want to hear. Notable only for leaders foul mouth.

PDs: Economically liberal party. Strong track record of calling a spade a spade re: SF/IRA long before it was popular. Best hope for Irelands future. Popularity (lack of) indicates we're doomed.

Greens: Well meaning enviromental anti-europe party. Members have speculated that it could reconcile enviromentalism with liberal economics but is otherwise a very lefty group. A Green-PD merger would be intriguing....but very unlikely.

SF/IRA: Heavily armed and violent ultra nationalist Marxist terrorist group with a political front. Believes private property leads to oppression. Has murdered 39 people since it agreed to stop murdering people. Pathological liars. Does not accept murder committed by SF/IRA to be a crime. Crinimal activities have made it so wealthy it can employ more paid employees than all the Irish political parties put together. Preys on the votes of the marginalised, the naive and the downright stupid. The single greatest threat to demoracy and the rule of law in Ireland.

true

Well put, Sand.

billy the squid

Nuttzz wrote:

the centre is only open, its hard to see if there has been a negative impact from them yet, more people in dundrum can only help retail outlets imo.

Their shops in the old dundrum shopping centre are going to be demolished, and the local stores have not been offered units in the new store. There is no guarantee that they will be given first refusal on phase II of the new Dundrum Centre, and even if they were, how long do they have to wait before it is built?.

as for local radio, its small fry in the overall scheme of things, fight the battles you can win, if local radio isnt one of them why bother it isnt a major vote winner.

thats a bit defeatist don't you think?

and whether or not it is not a big vote winner, does not change the fact that the PDs are pervayers of empty promises.

true

Billy the Squid says "does not change the fact that the PDs are pervayers of empty promises."

I disagree, the PD have kept many promisres eg about bringing down taxes, standing up for law and order etc etc.

Certain other parties not a million miles away contain those who are pervayers of criminality ( eg the big bank robbery before Xmas ) and terrorist activities. I think it is those people that society should be concerned about.

billy the squid

true wrote:

Billy the Squid says "does not change the fact that the PDs are pervayers of empty promises."

I disagree, the PD have kept many promisres eg about bringing down taxes, standing up for law and order etc etc.

Certain other parties not a million miles away contain those who are pervayers of criminality ( eg the big bank robbery before Xmas ) and terrorist activities. I think it is those people that society should be concerned about.

you want criminality, then talk to members of every political party, who were in breach of the Wireless and Telegraphy Act by giving election related interviews to unlicenced stations both in every local general and european election between 1997 and 2004.

by the way breaches of the above act can incur a maximum of €20,000 fine.

Now Nutzz has blamed the Fianna Fail paity for the increases in government related charges, but then you come along and give credit to the PDs for the lowering of taxes (I am assuming that you mean PAYE) now is it or is it not true that the same government department deal with both government related expenses and PAYE changes. so I am left a little confused here.

So if the PD supporter is going to blame Fianna fail for increases in government related expenses, should they not be giving credit for lower taxes to the same party, as the same department/minister is responsible?

true

billy the squid wrote:

you want criminality, then talk to members of every political party, who were in breach of the Wireless and Telegraphy Act by giving election related interviews to unlicenced stations both in every local general and european election between 1997 and 2004.

To me, the crime you describe above pales in to insignificance compared to a 30 million euro bank robbery ( involving kidnapping and terrifying the family of a bank employee etc ) , murder, punishment beatings, smuggling etc. Why, the leaders of one political party even say that the abduction and murder of a mother of ten is not a crime !

billy the squid wrote:

Now Nutzz has blamed the Fianna Fail paity for the increases in government related charges, but then you come along and give credit to the PDs for the lowering of taxes (I am assuming that you mean PAYE) now is it or is it not true that the same government department deal with both government related expenses and PAYE changes. so I am left a little confused here.

So if the PD supporter is going to blame Fianna fail for increases in government related expenses, should they not be giving credit for lower taxes to the same party, as the same department/minister is responsible?

Both Fianna fail and the PD's deserve credit for bringing down income tax rates. It is fair to say is it more of a policy point / priority for the PD's than Fianna Fail, who would not have brought down income tax rates as much were they in party by themselves or with labour etc.

billy the squid

To me, the crime you describe above pales in to insignificance compared to a 30 million euro bank robbery ( involving kidnapping and terrifying the family of a bank employee etc ) , murder, punishment beatings, smuggling etc. Why, the leaders of one political party even say that the abduction and murder of a mother of ten is not a crime !

I think that if you do a search through these boards you will find that they will be building snowmen in hell before I vote for Sinn fein. my point is that the Pee Dees are not perfect either, none of the political parties are perfect. none of them are worth their weight in bull****. best to vote independent.

Both Fianna fail and the PD's deserve credit for bringing down income tax rates. It is fair to say is it more of a policy point / priority for the PD's than Fianna Fail, who would not have brought down income tax rates as much were they in party by themselves or with labour etc.

and who takes the blame/credit for the fact that a) there is now an annual €40 levy on credit cards whether or not you use them. b) the price of a visit to accident and emergency has nearly doubled since this government came into power. and (c) the medicine payment scheme which allowed people on long term medication but not qualifying for a medical card, has been increased by almost 100 percent?

true

billy the squid wrote:

I think that if you do a search through these boards you will find that they will be building snowmen in hell before I vote for Sinn fein. my point is that the Pee Dees are not perfect either, none of the political parties are perfect. none of them are worth their weight in bull****. best to vote independent.

OK so,fair enough, I did not realise you were making that point. Of course no political party is perfect, I am not a member of any and I have sometimes voted for different ones depending on the canditate etc. In other countries no political party is perfect either etc

billy the squid wrote:

and who takes the blame/credit for the fact that a) there is now an annual €40 levy on credit cards whether or not you use them. b) the price of a visit to accident and emergency has nearly doubled since this government came into power. and (c) the medicine payment scheme which allowed people on long term medication but not qualifying for a medical card, has been increased by almost 100 percent?

The govt takes the blame / credit. Incidentally, I though the medicine payment scheme was increased from about 60 or 65 euro to about 70 or 75 euro ? Not a 100% increase but I could be wrong here.

billy the squid

whether it was increased by five euros or fifty euros it is still a lot to someone that doesnt have it.

Nuttzz

billy the squid wrote:

thats a bit defeatist don't you think?

low tax or local radio....its a no brainer IMHO

billy the squid

who said it was a choice, why not have both?