Quote for Front Porch

slave1

Hi,

Am getting quotes for a front porch/small conservatory.

It is approx 6ft X 6ft and will only have two sides as it will adjoining existing side of house and adjoined converted garage.

Spec is as follows

Toughened K Glass throughout inc. roof, PVC Doubleglazed, pouring of floor and tiling floor (price of tiles exc), installation of 2 double sockets, construction of small base wall (approx. 1ft), chipping off of pebble dash on side out house and replastering to nap finish, it will of course include a new front door

Getting quotes of about €10k

How does this sound??
Anyone had anything similar done recently with any advise?

Appreciate any comments or advise

kadman

So we are looking at an L shaped building. Are there any top sashes, or full opening sashes in the pvc panels. I assume if there are openings, they have full security fittings, as opposed to single locking mechanisms. And is the door a three point or 5 point system, lean to roof I assume, and what colour is the pvc. Very hard to guess at the pricing, but given the expense of materials alone , k glass is expensive. Does that price include all flashing prep on two walls, and gutter downpipes ect,, Dwarf wall being only a foot high does give you a larger panel than normal. So does n't sound too bad.

kadman

slave1

Okay then, need to flesh out a bit more

It not L shaped, there's a better view in the attached file.
There will be two "sides" and a door, each side will have two openings at the top. The roof is as per attachment, kinda 3 triangles to one high point.
One side will be 6 foot, the other 5 foot, door will be typical size.
The construction will be white double glazed PVC, engineered and all glass sealed into frame - so noone could pop the glass out for arguement sake.
Door/opening security is not high on the agenda as I will still have the "front door" which is fully secure.
All prep work included and all parts/labour to finished porch - I supply the tiles, that is the limit, oh and I will paint the insides.
Have seen previous work of folk and that is not an issue.

6/7 days from beginning to end.

kadman

Of course you are paying a bit extra for the complexity of the roof as opposed to a normal lean to.

Why are the panels glazings engineered to prevent it popping out, but you dont feel the need to secure your opening fan sashes nor door. A person may find it harder to enter through your existing front door, but if he gains access to your porch, he then can work in relatively un disturbed in the confines of your porch, on your front door.
Seems false economy not to secure your openings or your new door as efficiently as possible. Surely 5 point locking on the door, and espags on the sash , would not have a major impact on cost,

And if your glazed panels are engineered into the frame. How difficult is it to replace.All in all price is around normal I would imagine.

kadman

slave1

The example of not being able to pop out the glass was more illustrative rather than security geared.

The openings will have the typical single lock mechanism and the door I have yet to discuss in great detail but 3 or 5 should have little impact on costs as you suggested so I'll go for that.

Security is not an issue because in a nice little estate that has no record of break ins and her indoors is home during the day, We've accidently left the front door wide open from time to time and not a bother.
I've been broken into previously in other cities so its why I pay my insurance, I will go to all reasonable limits but if someone is determined to break it, let em off.

Engineered panels seem to be the way of the more recommended fitter from folk I've talked to/had a look at previous work.
I will enquire about difficutlies re replacement, good point

Tks for pointers, any other comments available from folk recently been through conservatory/porch build??

pollyantic

I would do some more shopping around if i were you.
Get at least 5 different quotes and show if the next quoters price is higher than the previous then haggle and kep haggleing. I think you should be able to half that price.

kadman

pollyantic wrote:

I. I think you should be able to half that price.

Well given the complexity of the type of arrangement intended,and expense of particular materials chosen, I would be stunned if he could half that price.

Taken individually, there are a number of factors that increase the cost of this particular layout as opposed to a normal 6x6 lean to.

Build wise.
No1.. There is an an unequal layout 6x5, which takes more setting out to achieve a good aesthetic appearence.
No.2 This again reflects itself in the roof development, which gives rise to an unequal hip arrangement, if the hip rafter is chosen to be installed direct to the corner, this results in any angular cuts not being 45 degrees, again wasteful on materials, more time to cut . If the rafter is chosen to install at 45 degree, this results in a short ridge arrangement, again this can be awkward in a small area.
No 3. Directly engineered glazing panels for security, would probably require toughened units in the panels, from the point of view of the difficulty in replacing a broken one. Toughened units are expensive.

Material wise.
No.!.. The choice of roof glass ,which would be toughened K glass, is expensive, coupled with three triangular units, probably doubles the price of the glass. Shaped units are costly for double glazed manufacturers to produce. Coupled with the additional work of the installer to make plywood templates for the glass, is all more labour intensive.
No.2 As well as glass, the two side units, are far higher than a normal porch arrangement, because the dwarf wall is only 300 mm high. Normally dwarf walls would be 3-4 rows of block, so increased k glass of 20+ sq feet is not cheap.

So material cost is going to be significant, even for a self build. So given that a legal contractor's significant cost of insurance ect on top of that, I could see no way that he could get all that done for 5k, 7 days work for two men alone would be 2k plus. Any reputable contractor doing that type of work for 5k won't be around too long.

kadman

pollyantic

kadman wrote:

Well given the complexity of the type of arrangement intended,and expense of particular materials chosen, I would be stunned if he could half that price.

Taken individually, there are a number of factors that increase the cost of this particular layout as opposed to a normal 6x6 lean to.

Build wise.
No1.. There is an an unequal layout 6x5, which takes more setting out to achieve a good aesthetic appearence.
No.2 This again reflects itself in the roof development, which gives rise to an unequal hip arrangement, if the hip rafter is chosen to be installed direct to the corner, this results in any angular cuts not being 45 degrees, again wasteful on materials, more time to cut . If the rafter is chosen to install at 45 degree, this results in a short ridge arrangement, again this can be awkward in a small area.
No 3. Directly engineered glazing panels for security, would probably require toughened units in the panels, from the point of view of the difficulty in replacing a broken one. Toughened units are expensive.

Material wise.
No.!.. The choice of roof glass ,which would be toughened K glass, is expensive, coupled with three triangular units, probably doubles the price of the glass. Shaped units are costly for double glazed manufacturers to produce. Coupled with the additional work of the installer to make plywood templates for the glass, is all more labour intensive.
No.2 As well as glass, the two side units, are far higher than a normal porch arrangement, because the dwarf wall is only 300 mm high. Normally dwarf walls would be 3-4 rows of block, so increased k glass of 20+ sq feet is not cheap.

So material cost is going to be significant, even for a self build. So given that a legal contractor's significant cost of insurance ect on top of that, I could see no way that he could get all that done for 5k, 7 days work for two men alone would be 2k plus. Any reputable contractor doing that type of work for 5k won't be around too long.

kadman

Lets say the labour is €2.5K . That makes 6x6 of materials 7.5K then.

Cost of this structure is €3000 per square meter.
Thats a lot for a porch.

lomb

yes there is something wrong with the cost of the materials, seems very expensive to me- maybe i should start manufacturing conservatory frames :rolleyes:

kadman

pollyantic wrote:

Lets say the labour is €2.5K . That makes 6x6 of materials 7.5K then.

Cost of this structure is €3000 per square meter.
Thats a lot for a porch.

Pollyantic.

Well judging by your estimates , where are you going to buy materials for 2.5k. You said you reckon 5k should do it.

Your not doing self build here , this guy got a quote for a contractors price, not self build. Self build is one thing, contractors price is something entirely different. A contractors price includes elements that a self build does not.

So 2.5k for labour Polly,
Now you have 2.5 left.

Now you have to buy the most expensive glass available, 3 manufactured screens, not windows, screens. They are above 1.2 in height so they need internal re-inforcing. All the ground works materials, lead flashing, expensive stuff, rainwater gutters, gullys, drain connections.

A door alone in pvc, is far more expensive than aluminium. All electric work materials. Then you have to buy aluminium extruded rafters, clips, bolts, end preps. Aluminium extruded eaves beam, aluminium extruded, ventilated ridge section, maybe. Rubber gaskets, pvc capping bars, rawl fittings.

So Pollyantic your 2.5k has to buy all the above, +2.5k labour ==your 5k.
Whats left to pay for two most significant points that you require when you get a contractor to do a job. Guarantee, and insurance, not too mention his profit. After all, he is expected to make a profit isn't he. You should check out public liability costs insurance. Two years ago I worked as an architectural joiner/ cad designer for a midlands based company, and his insurance for 3 joiners was 30k per year. By that reckoning you would have to allow for 1.2 k for insurance.
You are left with 2.5 labour, 1.2 insurance....1.3 by your reckoning for materials..

Methinks not.

One thing you both seem to forget is size is not always relative to cost. Its as labour intensive to make 300mmm wide window as a 900 mm window, doesn't necessarily mean there is an exact correlation between the price


Lomb.

So how much do you think it should cost from a contractor, closer to 5k, or 10k, and why.
Well when you set up in business and start manufacturing them, and installing , and guaranteeing, them, let me know. I reckon I could keep you going full time for 5k a pop, I'll even draw them for free.

kadman

kadman

lomb wrote:

yes there is something wrong with the cost of the materials, seems very expensive to me- maybe i should start manufacturing conservatory frames :rolleyes:

Jesus, at the price your charging for two man days labour security installation , your conserveratory labour would n't come in under 5k

kadman

pollyantic

I would think €2.5k labour is on the generous side for the labour, so you would have much more to spend on your materials.
While i'm not going to trawl the net looking for the materials prices (slave1 should do this anyway for their own peace of mind) i will tell you to go down to B & Q in Liffey Valley and see what they have to offer in conservatories.
They'll even build them for you for an extra €2 - 3K.

Is slave1 happy about paying €1,200 for insurance to build their conservatory?

Also, its 7 days solid work here.

Day 1 : 4 hours to dig foundations and fill (if even that, and 1 man can do this).
Day 2 : 3 hours to take out pebbledash. 2 hours to pour concrete for floors (again a 1 man job).
Day 3 : 4 hours to add your 1 foot high wall (another 1 man job).
Day 4 : 7.5 hours Attach glass and fix roof guttering etc (2 man job).
Day 5 : 7.5 hours Sockets and plastering (1 man job).
Day 6 : 7.5 Skimming and cleanup (1 man job)

I make that a total of 4.5 days give or take with only one day requiring 2 men.

I'm not knocking you if you can get €10K for doing a job like this , but it really is buyer beware with the prices builders are chargeing now.

As Mary Hearney says. 'Shop around'

kadman

pollyantic wrote:

I would think €2.5k labour is on the generous side for the labour, so you would have much more to spend on your materials.
While i'm not going to trawl the net looking for the materials prices (slave1 should do this anyway for their own peace of mind) i will tell you to go down to B & Q in Liffey Valley and see what they have to offer in conservatories.
They'll even build them for you for an extra €2 - 3K.

Is slave1 happy about paying €1,200 for insurance to build their conservatory?

Also, its 7 days solid work here.

Day 1 : 4 hours to dig foundations and fill (if even that, and 1 man can do this).
Day 2 : 3 hours to take out pebbledash. 2 hours to pour concrete for floors (again a 1 man job).
Day 3 : 4 hours to add your 1 foot high wall (another 1 man job).
Day 4 : 7.5 hours Attach glass and fix roof guttering etc (2 man job).
Day 5 : 7.5 hours Sockets and plastering (1 man job).
Day 6 : 7.5 Skimming and cleanup (1 man job)

I make that a total of 4.5 days give or take with only one day requiring 2 men.

I'm not knocking you if you can get €10K for doing a job like this , but it really is buyer beware with the prices builders are chargeing now.

As Mary Hearney says. 'Shop around'

Pollyantic.

Do you know the price of Kglass a sq m.
Do you know the price of aluminium extrude , rafters, eaves beam, ridge beam.
I think you are generalising about the price.
Make out a proper costing, with out leaving out items, as you have done.

You seem to be missing the whole point here. Does he want a self build, or a contractor build. If he wants a contractor build, he has no choice , nor does the contractor, but to pay for the insurance costs. It has to be part of the contractors costs.

Its obvious from your breakdown, that you have not researched your information enough. If he has received a quote from a contractor, its to fit specialised purpose made conserveratory components, not B&Q flat pack .

B&Q, to my knowledge, feel free to correct me on this, do not make individual customer order components.

What about the manufacturing costs of the pvc side panes and door , you seem to have forgot them, in your breakdown costs.

And what about the roof materials, and fabrication, and the shaped K glass components.,

And what about scaffold do B&Q give that away free.

So what is your point, you keep comparing a self build strategy, with a contractors price, they are not the same thing.

You have missed a lot of significant areas in your breakdown, and I believe that if you did your research more thorough , you would realise that it would be impossible to make this job at 5k. I dont understand how you can compare B&Q materials and a purpose manufactured product, for one thing the wall thickness may not be as thick as a standard extrusion.

BTW I am not a building contractor, am not self employed and do not quote for conserveratory manufacturing or installation. But I have spent 20+ years in building construction/ joinery.Including conserveratory manufacture and installation in , solid hardwood, pvc, aluminium. So I would feel that I am knowledgeable enough to discuss this topic.

I'm not knocking you either , but its really a question of research your topic

pollyantic

Since you know so much about the breakdown and cost of the materials then you can perhaps provide us with the costs of the materials needed.
Also please provide web links for the supply.

I'm sure slave1 would be interested to know where he can source these materials and then pay a builder for the labour.

Believe it or not you don't always have to ordershaped K glass components etc.
There will be plenty of off the shelf components that can be bought.

How high do you think this porch is going to be that it will need scaffolding? I bet, two barrels and a couple of planks are what the builder uses there.

My point here is that builders/contractors will double the price just to line their pockets.
Thats fine if the victim is willing to pay for this, but there are far too many rip-offs going on in Ireland.

kadman

pollyantic wrote:

Since you know so much about the breakdown and cost of the materials then you can perhaps provide us with the costs of the materials needed.
Also please provide web links for the supply.

I'm sure slave1 would be interested to know where he can source these materials and then pay a builder for the labour.

Believe it or not you don't always have to ordershaped K glass components etc.
There will be plenty of off the shelf components that can be bought.

How high do you think this porch is going to be that it will need scaffolding? I bet, two barrels and a couple of planks are what the builder uses there.

My point here is that builders/contractors will double the price just to line their pockets.
Thats fine if the victim is willing to pay for this, but there are far too many rip-offs going on in Ireland.

Well at the risk of repeating myself Pollyantic , you cant just walk into B&Q , and then ask them to supply you with a shaped triangular unit, with a 90 degree, 47 degree, 43 degree angles to match an offset hip. Try it.

As I repeatedly stated before in my posts, a self build price is different to a contractors price. I assume the quote he got was from a contractor. An efficient contractor, would not could not should not allow his employees to use beer barrels as a safe means of scaffold. His insurance would not cover it , and health and safety inspectors would severley penalise him if caught. And I dont think a competent contractor would risk all that for 8-10k.

You seem to be such an expert of b&q's materials for this build, you supply an appropriate ist of off the shelf units from them , suitable for this conserveratory.

You keep avoiding any point I bring up about your omissions in your breakdown cost, please clarify your omissions
You keep avoiding the issue of self build costs are not the same as contractors cost. Please clarify if you are talking about self build or contractor, slave ! is looking at a contractor build, as far as I am aware.

As for your statement that builders and contractors double the price, how can you justify that statement in this context. Are you saying you could get a contractor to do this for 5K, or are you saying that you could do it for 5k your self. And please answer the questions directly. Do the math a contractor could not possibly do this for 5k, pay all his costs, and make a profit.

Any point I have made so far , is made based on experience of 20 years . What basis are your assumptions that this can be contractor done for 5k.
I've noted my bona fidas in relation to my knowledge base, please do the same, what construction experience have you.

And then you want me to supply a bill of quantities free of charge, where are you going to get that foc.

Why do I need to spend time giving web links to sites for material costs, when you give a misleading labour breakdown, and then leave out significant elements of it. You seem to assume that any builder could fabricate an aluminium roof install eaves and ridge beams to suit an offset hip, and then install roof glass and capping bars to suit. Unless you have experience of fabricating aluminium roofs, and allowing the appropriate tolerences between the glass, your ordinary builder should not go near it. It is a specialised field, ouside the realms of the backstreet builder.

If you do not know any of the material costs involved , or indeed the proper scope of works involved, how can you say it should only cost 5k.

So if I come down to your house , and install your conserveratory on two beer barrels, and then fall off , end up in hospital and you tell me I'm not insured. I'll just sue the rrr's off ya.

This time answer my points raised :mad:

kadman

rooferPete

Hi Pollyantic,

From reading your posts I think I could be forgiven for coming to the conclusion that you had a bad experience with small building contractor.

I was looking at the breakdown you supplied, where may I ask will any contractor find a man or woman to work for a half days pay ?

The breakdown does not take into account travelling time for the employee to get to work, set up, do the work and in my book the most important clean up before he leaves the work site.

It also does not take into account that under Health and Safety Regulations, the very ones that Mary Hearney voted in, there are very few jobs that one person is allowed to do alone.

I know this is a DIY forum full of consumers, but I am also a consumer, to remain a consumer I must earn money, not work for the love of work.

Maybe if the cost was broken down in a more general way it might make sense, A 30 sq feet building at house building rates would cost around €150-00 per sq ft = €4,500-00.

I hope the contractor does not read this because he may decide to walk away when he can get the same rate per sq ft for a 1200 sq ft house.

The economies of scale alone make the price of this job very fair, I have been to B&Q and I can assure you they do not supply what would pass as good materials for a contractor to present to a customer.

Five estimates or quotes is the wrong way to approach any job because each contractor can provide costings for different quality materials, especially in this type of work because there is a huge variety of products available.

The most important thing to do is make sure you are comparing like with like, so provide each contractor with a specification to price.

BTW, any person found using beer barrels will be charged with theft or receiving stolen goods, and that is not a joke.

kadman

Does that mean you won't be tendering for this lucrative contract then Rooferpete.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

kadman

slave1

mmmm interesting
whilst being handy enough to tackle most DIY jobs up to electrics I would not contemplate doing this myself because it's too critical to the appearance of the house and the materials would be too expensive for me to fook around with.
I am a shopper around big time.
Sometimes you are better off paying slightly over the odds and getting exactly what you wanted, compared to going a cheaper route and having to drive the car every day for the rest of my life into the driveway only to see a Homer construction.
There would be no learning curve for me if I tacked this myself because it will be a first/last conservatory/porch for me.
Finishing touches sometimes require passing over to the professionals and the guy I have in mind at the minute is a hard hands on worker and quality is tasty.
I'll let you know how I get on, there are 2 more guys to call and quote and then I'll go back to the best two to get firm quotes and haggle.

kadman

What ever route you choose, I think you have reached a conclusion about what you expect to receive for your hard earned dosh.
You said yourself you are willing to spend a little extra to get exactly what you want in quality , and appearence.

Good judgement in my book Let us know how you get on.

kadman

Carpenter

Day 1 : 4 hours to dig foundations and fill (if even that, and 1 man can do this).



Are you joking 4 hours to dig and fill (can i have that man,s ph number pls)

kadman

pollyantic wrote:

Day 5 : 7.5 hours Sockets and plastering (1 man job).


QUOTE]

Now would that be a plasterer with a RECI cert.

kadman

rooferPete

Hi Kadman,

No dis-respect intended to Slave1 but I would not dream of undertaking such a project without an Architects Specification and possibly a much higher price.

I think where Pollyantic and many of the general public can and do make mistakes in comparing costs on a project like this is the materials proposed, in a lot of these type of jobs I see twin and triple panel polycarbonate used.

We did fit two conservatory type roofs as rooflights on a building, the cost for fitting to prepared opes was in excess of twenty thousand pounds per unit, now they were not your standard units but the quality was brilliant.

At the time similar looking units could be bought for around five thousand pounds, the difference was equal to chalk and cheese.

Regarding my posts and the works I will undertake, perhaps some of the other visitors would clarify that I am not available for some six months, also when I can I do refer tradesmen direct to deal direct when I can.

I would appreciate if the people who think I am taking advantage of boards.ie as cheap advertising to have the guts to use email addresses that I can reply to.

pollyantic

kadman wrote:

pollyantic wrote:

Day 5 : 7.5 hours Sockets and plastering (1 man job).


QUOTE]

Now would that be a plasterer with a RECI cert.

kadman

I dont know does he? You'ld have to ask Slave1 what qualifications the contractor supplies.
Whether he does or not though its 2 x 6ft wide walls, one with a door in it. Hardly a job at all. Simple job, cert or not.

Seems to me, You're still trying to inflate the price of a simple job there
And i'm trying to deflate it

I think we'll never agree

kadman

Hi Rooferpete,

It seems that regardless of what quote a person gets , they immediately think they are being ripped off, why. They have little or no experience of the overall issues, materials, complexities, involved with the job, because they do not have the experience to assess it. I agree Rooferpete that comparing B&Q products to top of the range materials is like comparing Da Vinci's work to a painter and decorators. Self builders if you are going down this route you have to realise that you cannot bypass professional involvement. You need an architects skill, you need professional management of your build, and you need professional tradesmen, whether they are contractors, or next door neighbours, there is no point employing cowboys.

Hi Pollyantic,

Well you are still missing the point here . You should look at the drawing slave1 posted, and read the posts, its not an l shape, its a 3 sided plan, 2 panels , one door set at an angle.
Yes it is a simple job....to experienced professionals. Thats what professionals do they make these jobs look simple to build, thats why they do it in half the time , and better than cow boys. Thats why you pay them more than cowboys.

I could have no benefit of inflating this price, I am not a builder, contractor. This forum is for giving people the benefit of my experience and knowledge of building construction, and for other like minded professionals to do the same...to people like you, who have very little experience on the subject. What you choose to do , and whether you believe it is entirely up to you.

As I said before , if you get someone to do this for 5k let me know, I'd be very interested to see it.

Well we will agree to disagree,

kadman

pollyantic

Yes i did look at the drawing and as i said, there are 2 x 6 ft wide walls to be plastered. They dont have to plaster the glass

kadman

kadman wrote:

pollyantic wrote:

Day 5 : 7.5 hours Sockets and plastering (1 man job).


QUOTE]

Now would that be a plasterer with a RECI cert.

kadman

I think you are missing the intended sarcasm here. Registered ElectriCal Contracrors In Ireland, tend to stick to electrical work. And plasterers stick to plastering.

So what 1 man are we talking about , a plastering sparks, or a sparky plasterer.

And here endeth the lesson.......please. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

kadman

pollyantic

kadman wrote:

kadman wrote:

I think you are missing the intended sarcasm here. Registered ElectriCal Contracrors In Ireland, tend to stick to electrical work. And plasterers stick to plastering.

So what 1 man are we talking about , a plastering sparks, or a sparky plasterer.

And here endeth the lesson.......please. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

kadman

Like i said,
I dont know or dont care what qualification the Plasterer or an electrician have.
Simple job for even a builder without any sort of qualification to do.
1 Man job is all it is. Don't tell me you've never come across a builder who can .... ghasp! .... Wire a couple of sockets AND plaster :cool:
Don't be trying to use sarcasm to inflate the price
Its a ridiculous price that they are charging this guy.

Next we'll be needing a window cleaner with a Bsc to clean the windows

rooferPete

pollyantic wrote:

kadman wrote:

Simple job for even a builder without any sort of qualification to do.
1 Man job is all it is. Don't tell me you've never come across a builder who can .... ghasp! .... Wire a couple of sockets AND plaster :cool:
Don't be trying to use sarcasm to inflate the price
Its a ridiculous price that they are charging this guy.

Next we'll be needing a window cleaner with a Bsc to clean the windows

Hi Pollyantic,

I think the above explains the difference between DIY, the Handyman and the Contractor.

DIY if the plaster is not a nice finish he can stand back and say "not bad",
if the sockets are a little iffy that's ok just don't run the dishwasher while the water feature in the porch is running.

Handyman, well the plaster work is near enough, that socket is wired and the cable is in so call an electrician when your ready sure he has gizmos that show where the problem is.

Contractor, (To Plasterer) if you don't get that finish perfect you are not getting paid.

To Electrician, Is all working properly ? write up the cert and I'll sort out the cheque for you.

The Contractor is your quality control, to control quality he must have at least the basic knowledge of all the trades employed, if the job is below standard the contractor does not get paid.

So your plaster finish, internal and external must be finished properly, and there can not be any doubts regarding the electrical work, that is why we have RECI approved electricians, they must be qualified and insured.

RECI do have a service where they will send out an inspector to issue the certificate regardless of who fits the installation, but that service costs about €250-00 and you only get the cert if the work is to standard.

Still think the contractor has it easy ?

Would you put your home on the line everytime you undertake to build a porch ?

kadman

pollyantic wrote:

kadman wrote:

Next we'll be needing a window cleaner with a Bsc to clean the windows

What do you want a window cleaner for, if you went down the proper route, and got professionals to glaze your windows, and not diy cowboys, they would have fitted self cleaning glass for you.

I kid you not, check it out.

kadman

Macy

kadman wrote:

It seems that regardless of what quote a person gets , they immediately think they are being ripped off, why.

Because people are ripped off, and when they get a quote that's more than they thought they automatically ask around. Don't blame the people, blame the cowboys that cause the situation.

I mean we had a quote for our house build, told him he was way over, and he was able to knock €40k off straight away with no explaination (still not enough to match who we got, and the spec was better with who went with too!). He'd still be making a profit on the price he gave, but 40k less than he would've of if I'd been a mug and brought his sales patter or just simply not known enough to see that his spec wasn't as good.

Personally, I think that's a lot for what it is, and what it could be used for...

pollyantic

Macy wrote:

Personally, I think that's a lot for what it is, and what it could be used for...

Ditto

kadman

Macy wrote:

Because people are ripped off, and when they get a quote that's more than they thought they automatically ask around. Don't blame the people, blame the cowboys that cause the situation.

I mean we had a quote for our house build, told him he was way over, and he was able to knock €40k off straight away with no explaination (still not enough to match who we got, and the spec was better with who went with too!). He'd still be making a profit on the price he gave, but 40k less than he would've of if I'd been a mug and brought his sales patter or just simply not known enough to see that his spec wasn't as good.

Personally, I think that's a lot for what it is, and what it could be used for...

Yes people are ripped, and no I don't agree with it either. But not all quotes should automatically be regarded as rip offs.

As you say, you should always shop around for various quotes. You would be foolish to accept one quote. Agreed.

What worrys me is your statement, " when they get a quote thats more than they thought ", that presuppose s that people know what their house build should cost before they look for a quote. All very well if they have the knowledge to arrive at that figure. Where do they get that initial figure from, if not from the first quote.

I think possibly people are paranoid about getting ripped off, that they convince them selves of this from the outset. Look back through all this thread, virtually all opinions regading costs of this build from , are its too high, it should cost half that. I assume these views are from people who have little or no experience in building construction, and there fore are not experienced enough to cost it. But prove me wrong .
Please correct me If I am wrong, I would welcome a professional to state that a contractor could do this for 5k, and prove how .

I've asked throughout this thread, that any one that thinks this can be done by a contractor for 5k, set out a bill of quantities and all costs and post them here. You are not the only one to think it should be cheaper, so post your costs, for all to see. And dont forget to cost from a contractors point of view, not self build. No use shouting from the rooftops , its too dear. Put your costs and we'll see.

kadman

Macy

Not arguing over the costs of this project, more the general questioning of quotes. I think it's a good thing that people don't blindly go with one quote. To me, uneducated as I am, even €5k sounds alot for a porch. Doesn't mean I'm right, but it's a lot more than I would ever think it would be. More value for money for the floor area gained rather than whether the spec of the build tbh - that's what I was getting at with my last comment. It may look nice, but you'd be well on the way to hobby room in the back garden for that kind of money which imo would be more use (just my opinion - up to whoever is stumping up the readies).

I'm going with a builder, not direct labour, because I know I haven't the time or the expertise to do it direct labour (and if you haven't I believe you are putting yourself in the position of costing more in the end). However, I do know enough to compare tenders, which is what I did.

kadman

[QUOTE=Macy

I'm going with a builder, not direct labour, because I know I haven't the time or the expertise to do it direct labour (and if you haven't I believe you are putting yourself in the position of costing more in the end). However, I do know enough to compare tenders, which is what I did.[/QUOTE]

Well I do agree with you that if it has to be properly managed from the out set.

Well if you have tender preperation experience, then it would be no problem to you to cost this from a contractors prospective. I still maintain that a contractor could not do this for 5k. But I'd like someone to prove me wrong.

And your probably the best qualified so far to do that , hows about it then.

kadman

rooferPete

Hi Macy,

I agree with you, anyone who can drop €40k in a heart beat would not inspire confidence with me.

If on the other hand the contractor acted like a professional and even asked for a second meeting to go through his costs with you, then you become the informed consumer.

At least you get to see how the numbers are arrived at, if contractor "B" can not show you how or where he will save the €40k then common sense and knowledge provide the answers.

I can assure you I am not blind to the dis-respect being shown to the consumer by both sides, those who can do a good job but seem to be building in the deposit on their holiday home, and the other side who are taking a chance in the belief they are going to make a profit based on turnover.

The whole process can be a nightmare if the consumer becomes set in the idea that everyone is out to rob them.

lomb

my experiance is materials cost bugger all. a brick is a euro, and a roll of insulation is a tenner.
the 10 grand would be 3 grand materials absolute max+2grand labour absolute max @200 a day so 10 man days work max+3000+vat

so if u manage it urself it can be done for 5grand.

kadman

lomb wrote:

my experiance is materials cost bugger all. a brick is a euro, and a roll of insulation is a tenner.
the 10 grand would be 3 grand materials absolute max+2grand labour absolute max @200 a day so 10 man days work max+3000+vat

so if u manage it urself it can be done for 5grand.

There you go folks , its official.

Self build = 5k
Contractor= 5k + ins+profit+guarantee+ professional input+quality= More than 5k

Lomb you genius, I bow in the presence of greatness.

lomb

its true! bottom line is if u want it done for u, u will have to pay 3000 to the guy managing it and on top everything including the labour and his profit will be vatted with vat.
if u do it urself, u will avoid the 3grand, the vat on the labour and the vat on the 3grand.

rooferPete

Hi lomb,

Well for materials that cost bugger all please call by any month and pick up my suppliers statements and get them to bugger off

I can assure you the small items are where the money goes, a few bits and pieces that often sit on the passenger seat can clock up 500-00 euro of my customers money.

I would love to have gross profit margin of 30% but then again maybe I'm just too nice to my customers

kadman

Hi Rooferpete,

Maybe you could employ Lomb as your accountant for porch quotes, and boroughmal for your chippy, he has some very interesting stairbuilding techniques.

Some of their posts should come with a government health warning

kadman

DIY Queen

Personally I think €10K is rather excessive. I recently got the following for €16K.
- 4 bed semi house entirely swapped out for double glazing.
- Dining room window knocked out & changed to french doors
- Original back door built up into a window.
- Garage door converted into window (wall built up etc).
- Front porch added on, granted the pillars & roof were already there but they had to build up side wall, install window, new door & lay concrete flooring.

10K sounds way too much for what you want - we had quotes ranging from 15K to 30K for same job so shop around & don't be afraid to haggle either !!

Good luck

samo

Sorry to go off subject but that sounds seriously cheap....Can I ask you where you got your windows from or who supplied them as in the market for french doors, velux windows and regular sized double glazed windows....

Anyone with experience of a good supplier but not astronomical prices...would appreciate the advice and sorry for thread hi-jack

kadman

DIY Queen wrote:

Personally I think €10K is rather excessive. I recently got the following for €16K.
- 4 bed semi house entirely swapped out for double glazing.
- Dining room window knocked out & changed to french doors
- Original back door built up into a window.
- Garage door converted into window (wall built up etc).
- Front porch added on, granted the pillars & roof were already there but they had to build up side wall, install window, new door & lay concrete flooring.

10K sounds way too much for what you want - we had quotes ranging from 15K to 30K for same job so shop around & don't be afraid to haggle either !!

Good luck

So would I be correct in saying you got .
2 French Doors.
New front door.
3 windows

Entire house swapped out for double glazing, was that glass only, or double glazed windows and glass.
How many ,days labour, men.

kadman

rooferPete

Hi Diy Queen,

That looks an amazing bargain, this time last year on my sons first house I fitted,
3 bedrooms,
bathroom,
sitting room
built up kitchen door / window and fitted a wide window.
opened a new kitchen door with side glazing.
New porch with tiled roof ( dang I better fit the gutters )
New front door centered between two side panels.

This was a no time sheet job, materials removed my stores at no cost, no equipment hire charges etc.

Cost about €16,000.00 and believe me I didn't draw the cost of a tank of diesel for my van.

Also the outlay to trades were at a minimum even for the one's I didn't blackmail or call in favours owed from

DIY Queen

To Kadman

Yes Kadman you're right but I think you're missing the point that we had two walls built up to faciliate new windows & one wall knocked out to install french doors & a porch added, ie. it wasn't just a complete swap out of like for like.

I can't remember the exact amount of days but it was the best part of 10 days. Think there was one guy on his own for the first one building up walls for garage, porch & back door & then the remainder of the time seemed to be two guys on site.

We had about 10 quotes & boy does it pay to shop around & haggle ...

kadman

DIY Queen wrote:

To Kadman

Yes Kadman you're right but I think you're missing the point that we had two walls built up to faciliate new windows & one wall knocked out to install french doors & a porch added, ie. it wasn't just a complete swap out of like for like.

I can't remember the exact amount of days but it was the best part of 10 days. Think there was one guy on his own for the first one building up walls for garage, porch & back door & then the remainder of the time seemed to be two guys on site.

We had about 10 quotes & boy does it pay to shop around & haggle ...

I'd hardly call blocks to window cill height, a wall. And one window knocked out for a door way, major work. You said your self one guy , one day, all walls.

You never said it was a glass only swap, or entire house windows as well.

Given that your labour was similar time, materials may be similar as well if its glass only. I see that both were quoted at 10k. Why should the porch be a lot cheaper. In balance if you had glazing only fitted, or maybe small windows. I think the two jobs are similar.

Did you have all replacement windows, or 3 new windows, and glass for the rest.

kadman

DIY Queen

Hi again,

I was only trying to clarify by stressing it wasn't a pure like for like swap & that there was some building work required.

Yes the entire house was swapped out for double glazing, that's 4 beds, large landing window, bathroom, little loo, big bay window & kitchen. Oh & it also included price of a new composite front door.

All i'm saying is that quote porch seems excessive to me & I'd be shopping around for a better one.

rooferPete

Hi DIY Queen,

By all means shop around and make sure you are happy with the contractor, the materials specified and the guarantee offered, make sure you don't get a "Tail light" guarantee, Yep the job is guaranteed for as long as Y'all can see our tail lights .

I can guarantee you he will get a cheaper price, I would even go so far as to say he can "Save" €5,000.00 on initial outlay no problem.

I noticed you didn't find it strange that a job done with zero to even cover the contractors travelling costs let alone wages, overhead and profit (dirty word).

There are always going to be different contractors and different consumers, I am blessed with the customers I have, they ask for the best available and are willing to pay what it costs.

I meet people who have a five or ten year plan for their home, I meet people who have bought the cheapest in the past and blame the contractor, I also meet the people who ask for a maintenance schedule for the finished work.

As a nasty money grabbing contractor I field my enquiries and eliminate as much as 25% on the phone, of the remainder 25% will not get a quote, estimate or guide cost, I actually close the sale on 50% of the remaining enquiries.

That means I enter contracts with one in every four enquiries, there are contractors who are horrified at those numbers, they are volume sellers who offer practically no back up to the customer.

What I find strange is the number of contractors who spend up to €30,000.00 per year with Golden Pages, honestly I would be sick if I thought I was not able to produce work to a standard where the customer is not happy to recommend me to their family and friends.

I work to a very old saying, "it takes a wealthy customer to buy the cheap job" the reason is obvious to me anyway, a cheap job done twice is always more expensive than a good job done once.

slave1

And a very timely response, just about a year later!

Pocari Sweat

So, how much altogether?

I had a porch to do for a customer and had vague idea on costings, so I did big no, no, and quoted off the top of me head saying it would be about 5,000 yo yos, at a very low price, but told them any usual builder would be 7, 8 or 9,000 yo yos but I would look into it.

They wanted a 6 x 6 foot internal space, which needed an 8 foot by 7 foot raft, all block, one glazed door, one big glazed window on front. Intially flat roof, then a bangor slate pitched roof was suggested and amazingly I said that would be about a grand difference, what with joinery labour, materials, soffit fascia, gutter, two down pipes, none-hipped, plus the slate roof! What was I thinking, just and extra grand. So 6,000 yo yos quoted.

So had a word with a builder I knew, dab hand ground worker, raft layer, blocker, brothers were joiners/roofers.

He said he could knock it up for 2 grand! And off he went, taking his words lightly of course, me still thinking at least 5 to 6 grand.

He laid a 5 foot deep raft! 3 foot of hard core and 2 foot concrete. He has serious digger, so took little time. His blockers came and whipped up walls. He mentioned of course, double glazed door and d. glazed window would be extra on the 2 grand, no worries. - 700 made and fitted for both!

No worries.

So budget 2,700 so far. Roof extra was actually just extra 1,000 on his costings for pitched slate roof, cutting into existing old bangor slate roof.

I forgot to mention this was on old 1934, mass concrete cottage being worked on. The blockers had to hilti all local plaster offf near where new blocking was being fixed to existing house, extras like this.

So builder left it at around 3.7 / 4 grand with new posh slated roof and doors, windows, sealed from the weather, just for me to arrange plaster inside and out, put up slabs inside, run cables for light and switch, double socket, pipes for a radiator. Got plastered up for around 500 euros. Top job from lithuanian maestro.

Around 4.5 to 5 grand now, nearly done, second fix wires, window board, 2 down spouts, 2 gulleys and digging back round house with pipe to soakage to do, that'll be another 500.

What, 5.5 now, plus 3 coats of paint inside and out, fit rad, outside light as well, wireless door bell. So if I have not forgotten out, oh yeh screed internal floor and tile, another 500 for all those bits, labour, farting around.

Right minimum 6k then. Me paid feckin pittance to project manage this extra on to rest of the house, that I nearly never costed me time for and you have one fecking top quality, cheap porch. Should have been 7, 8 or 9 as I said to the client first time round, they got a bargain. Still aint finished yet and I started last november. In Dublin call it 10 to 15k for this style of porch? What de ye think, roughly speaking?

slave1

Mine was 10k inc. the new front door on the inside, everything you see included, from foundations to finished article.
This was the lowest quote I got which made me hesitant, however top class workmanship and nothing to snag at the end.
From doing the foundations to completion was 6 weeks - only measured for the glazing piece after the dwarf wall was completed, left it another week or so before the porcelain tiles went down, no plumbing, argon filled glass, included a bit of chipping away of house pebbledash and plastering inside/out.
Am a DIY man but not this time.