End of Howth DART line?

Jonny Arson

I've hearing talk recently that Ianroid Eireann may significantly reduce services on the the northbound DART service to Howth or even abolish it all together.

I don't know if there is any truth in this speculation but could someone please tell that this is crazy talk because the line to Howth need MORE trains. In the mornings the trains are so overcrowded that I sadly have no doubt that someone will be seriously injured or god forbid even killed sometime in the future.

Could anyone verify this speculation?

enterprise

No truth in it whatsoever.

If the intergrated rail plan is approved by the government IE will operate a frequent Off-peak shuttle service between Howth and Howth Jct with Peak hour through services. Rather like the Chesham branch on LUL's Metropolitan Line.

This is due to no capacity to run all services between Howth Jct and Connolly if the airport line is built.

landser

does this mean that there will be no through trains from Howth to town? looking to buy in sutton and this could effect my decision, esp if i have to change trains every a.m. to get to work

ixoy

So what you're saying Enterprise is that there'd be DART services direct to Howth during peak hours only? And that, off peak, we'd used a shuttle bus to get to Howth Jn. and get the DART from there? I bloody well hope not!

maxheadroom

ixoy wrote:

So what you're saying Enterprise is that there'd be DART services direct to Howth during peak hours only? And that, off peak, we'd used a shuttle bus to get to Howth Jn. and get the DART from there? I bloody well hope not!

Not a shuttle bus, there would be a DART running Howth - Howth Junction only. And with the increased frequencies the whole plan brings, you would have a very short wait at Howth Junction for your connecting DART.

enterprise

Thank you Maxheadroom.

A shuttle train service would operate between Howth and Howth Jct OFF PEAK ONLY.

Through train services would operate between Howth - City to the Southside or wherever at PEAK HOURS (in the morning and evening!)

maxheadroom

enterprise wrote:

Through train services would operate between Howth - City to the Southside or wherever at PEAK HOURS (in the morning and evening!)

Do you know if this would be the case if the airport spur went ahead? Is there capacity for 6tph to the airport while maintaining through services to Howth?

enterprise

TBH I don't know. I did read somewhere that through Peak Hour services to Howth would be maintained.

weehamster

Here some info on the future Howth Shutttle

CLICK HERE

enterprise

Thanks for that weehamster.

Therefore I take it no direct services will operate but a good connections will be available at Howth Jct?

Metrobest

The stark fact is that passengers from Howth, Bayside and Sutton stand to be fleeced yet again. When the DART started going to Malahide, trains were pulled from the Howth line. Now, the residents stand to lose out yet again. In all probability there will be no direct trains from Howth to the city during peak time; instead, direct trains could be operated during the off-peak when demand on the Northern line slackens.

Another problem for passengers on the Northern Line: post-interconnector trains will not stop at Connolly or Tara. Passengers traveling to these desinations will have to make TWO changes - one at H'Junction, one at Pearse.. Journey times will more than double. Certain journeys - such as Connolly-Clontarf - will no longer be viable by train.

These are the realities you won't find on the Platform11 website!

enterprise

As with any plan there are negatives as well as benefits. I feel that the Dublin Rail Plan offers far more benefits to the Greater Dublin Region than negatives.

On a side note Metrobest - why are you always so negative?

murphaph

Unfortunately for te people of Howth, Sutton and Bayside they simply don't have the population to warrant a direct service going forward. Even now before the interconnector there are grounds for removing the direct connection in favour of more Drogheda trains. Post interconnector their service frequency will actually increase as the shuttle will be very frequent, every few minutes certainly. The connection will be stress free as IE will use very high capacity double deck DARTs from Drogheda to Kildare operating at much higher frequencies than presently. Metrobest picks the few journeys that the DRP lengthens but neglects to mention that Howth pax (for example) will be able to travel to Stephen's Green, Heuston and on out to Kildare Town with 1 change. On a elated note, Deutsche Bahn Muenchen recently altered nearly all S-Bahn routes through the city. They will no doubt have pissed people off who were used to travelling a-b with 0 changes and now have to change but they do it based on passenger numbers and demand for travel between various points around the city. Most win, some lose. Happens everywhere.

weehamster

its only temporary (if you can call 10-15 years temporary). A Direct service will be restored when the northern line is upgraded to 4-track.

The Problem is it will cost €500m, which is why its not on the Dublin Rail Plan, but IE has said that the 4track is needed in the long term, like the upgrading of the Kildare line to 4 track currectly under construction.

Metrobest I dont think likes P11 at all.

enterprise

Well Im no fan of P11 either but the Dublin Rail Plan which IE has come up with and which P11 has had a hand in promoting is a jolly good rail plan for the dublin area.

therecklessone

Metrobest wrote:

The stark fact is that passengers from Howth, Bayside and Sutton stand to be fleeced yet again.

The stark fact is that recent and future developments on the Northern line are only putting in place what should have occured when the DART was introduced.

I'm told that the cost of running the DART to Drogheda was similar to the cost involved on running it from Howth Junction to Howth (due to the nature of the terrain to Howth), and at the time it was apparent that the scope for development north of Portmarnock, suggesting the first option was the most logical. Of course, Ireland being Ireland we ended up with a line that serves 3 stations with very little scope for further development. :rolleyes:

The best choice for public transport is that which serves the greater good.

Metrobest

weehamster wrote:

its only temporary (if you can call 10-15 years temporary). A Direct service will be restored when the northern line is upgraded to 4-track.

The Problem is it will cost €500m, which is why its not on the Dublin Rail Plan, but IE has said that the 4track is needed in the long term, like the upgrading of the Kildare line to 4 track currectly under construction.

Metrobest I dont think likes P11 at all.

I don't think the Northern line will ever be upgraded to 4 tracks. Joe Magher said as much at the IEI presentation - the areas which surround the rail line are too 'mature' to mess around with.

IE should have dumped their plans to build the rail spur to the airport. A Hazelhatch-Howth DART was a much more sensible option: many experts also stated this at the IEI; the pressure on the Northern line will be immense if it has to cope with two DART routes, intercities, and Arrows to Dundalk.

Jonny Arson

This shuttle DART line from Howth to Howth junction is frankly absolutely ridiculous and disgraceful. This truly shows that Ianroid Eireann act only in the interests of making money and providing an adequate rail system.

I will acknowledge that with all of the building going on around ther Baldoyle/Portmarnock area there would be a a ntural demand for increased train services but to totally provide a disadvantaged and inadequate service to the people of East Baldoyle, Bayside, Sutton and Howth is totally not on and this shows that Ianroid Eireann's priority is to make a quick buck from handshakes with builders rather than provide an efficient and accessible DART service to the people of this region. If this so called shuttle service does become up and running in the future, I will boycott all rail services and I am sure many other people will.

This so called shuttle service would be a complete nusance and I can assure you if it goes ahead it WILL lead to the abolishment of the Howth DART line. For example with all of the people getting off at Howth Junction from Howth and connecting to a train from the Malahide line there will be even more overcrowded trains during the daytime.

The solution to this problem for increased demand on the Northern line is guess what ...... increase the amount of trains on both lines at a frequency of every 10 minutes so the people of Dublin can have a decent rail service ... its not rocket science.

If this plan eventually comes to light I will have no doubt that people power will overcome this ridiculous idea by fighting these idiots running our transport system.

weehamster

I sometime I truly cant understand Irish people and their ability to moan at every little thing. This shuttle will be more frequent than the DART is currently today.

Is it the changing trains that anoys people, because you better get use to the idea of changing on the future DART system because to get to Bray from the northside you will be require a change at Pearse St or to get to Maynooth again you have to change at Pearse St. Or from Bray to Kildare require a change. You can check any other urban rail system and you will find the same.

Considering that you will be able to use a DART to get from Howth to Heuston, Kildare, Maynooth, Dublin 2, Airport as well as the current stops on the DART system as well as connecting with all Luas line and Intercity/Suburban, I would conciderthe temporary stoppage of a direct service a small thing.

We all would like a direct line to everywhere be in reality this doesnt happen.

So please stop the childish ways and think of the biger picture.

therecklessone

weehamster wrote:

I sometime I truly cant understand Irish people and their ability to moan at every little thing. This shuttle will be more frequent than the DART is currently today.

Fully agree.

murphaph

Ah sure it's no good if it doesn't take you to 'An Lar' in one trip. :rolleyes:

ixoy

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

This so called shuttle service would be a complete nusance and I can assure you if it goes ahead it WILL lead to the abolishment of the Howth DART line. For example with all of the people getting off at Howth Junction from Howth and connecting to a train from the Malahide line there will be even more overcrowded trains during the daytime.

Precisely, that's my fear. By the time you get to Bayside on a morning DART, it's standing room only. To then transfer all those onto a DART already packed from the Malahide/Portmarnock/new Baldoyle stop is going to be horrendous, regardless of the frequency of the shuttle service unless the DART increases are proportionally matched.

When is this wonderful plan set to go ahead? And why are they bothering to extend the Sutton/Howth/Bayside train platforms to accomodate eight carriages if there's just going to be a shuttle service?

enterprise

therecklessone wrote:

Fully agree.

I concur.

The benefits far out weigh the negativities here. It is a small price to pay for Howth to lose a direct service to the city and gain a far superior suburban rail system around Dublin. The combined train freq at Howth Jct to / from the Airport and Drogheda at Peak times will be 12 tph (one every 5 mins).

I would reckon a peak train freq of 6tph would be provided on the Howth Branch and with big, double decker trains being used on the Drogheda and I assume existing type DART's in 8 cars for the airport there will be plently of capacity for the Howth line customers to join trains at Howth Jct.

However, maybe with the signalling enhancements under DASH phase two you might be able to squeeze some direct Howth line trains into Connolly station. Two or three of these could operate every 30 mins Howth all Stations to Connolly where they would terminate at Platform 4 and vice versa in the evening - but I would have serious reservations on the capacity being there to operate this type of service on top of 6 tph to / from Airport, 6 tph to / from Drogheda, 2 tph to / from Dundalk. 1 tph to / from Belfast.

maxheadroom

ixoy wrote:

Precisely, that's my fear. By the time you get to Bayside on a morning DART, it's standing room only. To then transfer all those onto a DART already packed from the Malahide/Portmarnock/new Baldoyle stop is going to be horrendous, regardless of the frequency of the shuttle service unless the DART increases are proportionally matched.

When is this wonderful plan set to go ahead? And why are they bothering to extend the Sutton/Howth/Bayside train platforms to accomodate eight carriages if there's just going to be a shuttle service?

Actually, when this goes ahead, the DART will have originated in Drogheda, will be at least 8 carriages long, and may infact be a 12 carriage double decker train. it will then continue through to spencer dock, through the interconnector (pearse, stephen's green, high street, heuston) before continuing on out to kildare.

I'd imagine they have to increase the platforms along the howth junction - howth stretch to 8 car lengths to accomodate the 8 car DART service for the next 5 - 10 years or so while the Dublin Rail Plan is fully implemented...

John R

weehamster wrote:

I sometime I truly cant understand Irish people and their ability to moan at every little thing. This shuttle will be more frequent than the DART is currently today.

Is it the changing trains that anoys people, because you better get use to the idea of changing on the future DART system because to get to Bray from the northside you will be require a change at Pearse St or to get to Maynooth again you have to change at Pearse St. Or from Bray to Kildare require a change. You can check any other urban rail system and you will find the same.

Considering that you will be able to use a DART to get from Howth to Heuston, Kildare, Maynooth, Dublin 2, Airport as well as the current stops on the DART system as well as connecting with all Luas line and Intercity/Suburban, I would conciderthe temporary stoppage of a direct service a small thing.

We all would like a direct line to everywhere be in reality this doesnt happen.

So please stop the childish ways and think of the biger picture.

A forlorn hope unfortunately.

If people had looked at the bigger picture when the Greystones DART extention had been pushed by various vested interests we could now have the all important central area capacity improvements allowing a considerable increase of peak-hour trains through Pearse-TaraStreet-Connolly as well as a regular diesel shuttle between Bray-Greystones rather than a hugely expensive electrification project to nowhere that can't provide more than 2-3 return workings an hour.

therecklessone

enterprise wrote:

with big, double decker trains being used on the Drogheda and I assume existing type DART's in 8 cars for the airport there will be plently of capacity for the Howth line customers to join trains at Howth Jct.

Any idea what increase in seating they will have, and whats the situation with standing in on those trains? I've seen them in use in Schipol to Amsterdam's Central Station, but IIRC I've only seen standing near the doors, not in the seating area.

enterprise

ixoy wrote:

When is this wonderful plan set to go ahead? And why are they bothering to extend the Sutton/Howth/Bayside train platforms to accomodate eight carriages if there's just going to be a shuttle service?

It hasn't been approved yet (cue: Hundreds of emails to the local Howth / Sutton TD's demanding that this good plan be scrapped as we lose are direct service to "an lar").

IE estimate it to be constructed and fully operational by 2012 I think.

Why are the platforms being extended? To provide a better service to customers of today. The change isn't happening overnight.

And it would be quite possible the shuttle service might be 8 cars long. Nothing to prevent IE from doing that.

ixoy

enterprise wrote:

It hasn't been approved yet (cue: Hundreds of emails to the local Howth / Sutton TD's demanding that this good plan be scrapped as we lose are direct service to "an lar").

Damn right, what's their email address I might live in town but I'm a bred Suttonian which is why my interest was raised by this thread. Objectively though the plans seems to make sense but meh, subjectivity can be more fun..

IE estimate it to be constructed and fully operational by 2012 I think.

IE are fairly decent with their target estimates aren't they? So that might be feasible.

On another note, I thought I read somewhere that one of the reasons they can't increase capacity on the line at the moment wasn't just due to signalling difficulties but also the unions refusing to work extra shifts - or was that my imagination?

Metrobest

therecklessone wrote:

Any idea what increase in seating they will have, and whats the situation with standing in on those trains? I've seen them in use in Schipol to Amsterdam's Central Station, but IIRC I've only seen standing near the doors, not in the seating area.

The standing issue does not arise on the Dutch trains as there is always adequate seating capacity. You're not allowed stand in the upper deck, and I've never seen anyone stand in the lower deck.

Just because the tunnel is being constucted to accomodate double decker trains does not mean they'll be deployed.

Re: the shuttle. I had heard it would be running every fifteen minutes. That's four per hour.

While taking into account the benefits the Interconnector will bring, many existing passengers will lose out. That's a fact. Some interconnector supporters would rather people didn't know these facts; that's why Platform 11 likes to gloss over these "minor details".

Metrobest

ixoy wrote:

On another note, I thought I read somewhere that one of the reasons they can't increase capacity on the line at the moment wasn't just due to signalling difficulties but also the unions refusing to work extra shifts - or was that my imagination?

You're probably right. I recall some years ago the drivers kicking up stink at a change in the timetable of the Maynooth line. Passengers held copies of the new timetable; the drivers insisted on operating to the old one.

enterprise

Metrobest wrote:

You're probably right. I recall some years ago the drivers kicking up stink at a change in the timetable of the Maynooth line. Passengers held copies of the new timetable; the drivers insisted on operating to the old one.

If you facts were correct I think you find it was the DART drivers.

murphaph

exactly Metrobest, Howth, Sutton and Bayside are minor compared to the rest of Leinster. P11 are open and clear on their FAQ, however. You 'Heard' that there would be a shuttle every quarter hour? Ah, then that's definite then. :rolleyes:

enterprise

ixoy wrote:

On another note, I thought I read somewhere that one of the reasons they can't increase capacity on the line at the moment wasn't just due to signalling difficulties but also the unions refusing to work extra shifts - or was that my imagination?

TBH with the amount of trains on the northern section at the moment you would be damm lucky to squeeze any extra services in without any signalling improvements.

weehamster

enterprise wrote:

TBH with the amount of trains on the northern section at the moment you would be damm lucky to squeeze any extra services in without any signalling improvements.

Currently thats true but when the DART is extended to Drogheda, this will replace the DMU's currently being used on the suburban service. And since the DART is quicker at starting and stopping, fequency will be increased. The only non electric services on the Northern Line will be the Dundalk, Drogheda to Connolly and the Enterprise.

GerardKeating

Metrobest wrote:

The stark fact is that passengers from Howth, Bayside and Sutton stand to be fleeced yet again. When the DART started going to Malahide, trains were pulled from the Howth line.

In the pre-DART era, there was a split between Howth and Malahide on suburban trains north of Connolly, when the DART opened, it "fleeced" the passengers on the Malihide line in favour of the Howth Branch.

Assuming the DRP is implemented, frequency on the Howth Branch will increase, ok service to two stations (Connolly/Tara) will disimprove, but service to about two dozen stations will improve.

How is this being fleeced?

Iób

murphaph wrote:

exactly Metrobest, Howth, Sutton and Bayside are minor compared to the rest of Leinster. P11 are open and clear on their FAQ, however. You 'Heard' that there would be a shuttle every quarter hour? Ah, then that's definite then. :rolleyes:

Maybe he "heard it" from the P 11 FAQ, which says:

4 trains an hour will operate between Howth and Howth Junction all day

I have had a look at the platform 11 site and while a lot of it makes sense a lot of what is there does not match with what is being defended here. Nor in fact does all of it match with reality.

Platform 11 site (http://www.platform11.org/inter_faqD.html)
Due to capacity constraints direct services will cease to Howth in the short term. Passengers instead must change at Howth Junction, there will be up to 12 trains an hour between Howth Junction to the city centre during peak hours. 4 trains an hour will operate between Howth and Howth Junction all day so connections are straight forward and frequent. Until 4 tracks are provided between East Wall Rd and Portmarnock there is no capacity to run any direct services to Howth. Despite this Howth will actually see a significant net increase in services over the current case.

Now the interesting thing about this is that the Howth line currently has 4 services an hour most of the time, a few hours with 3 trains and one hour with 5. How is 4 trains an hour a "significant net increase" on 4 an hour?

GerardKeating wrote:

ok service to two stations (Connolly/Tara) will disimprove, but service to about two dozen stations will improve.

How is this being fleeced?

By my reading of the plan, Travel from Howth/ Sutton or Bayside to Connolly or Tara (currently direct) will require a change at HJ and Pearse. Travel to anywhere south of Pearse (currently direct) will also require 2 changes - at HJ and Pearse. Travel to anywhere on the Maynooth line (currently change at Connolly) will mean 2 changes - at HJ and Pearse! Where are the two dozen stations?

What happpened when the Malahide route opened was that what previously had been a service every 15 minutes - you didn't even need a timetable just had to remember which minute after the hour it left - turned into a highly irregular service. And the service to Malahide is even more irregular - darts almost always group just before or after trains to Drogheda.

but what I really want to say is: What about the metro?

The alternative approach of course, as there are such capacity constraints on this line, is not to put the extra airport traffic onto it, but link that by metro to the city centre and the interconnector at Stephen's green.

But the current metro proposals stop in the Airport or in Swords. Surely the metro could at it's northern end link to a the extended Dart service in Donabate (the place most of IE's forecast extra passengers are travelling from) Thereby it would actually take pressure off the current northside rail link instead of increasing it.

Has anyone studied this?

It seems like everyone would win. Airport access from City centre or with one change off the dart. City centre access direct for everyone.

Am I missing something?

weehamster

Here Iób. Havge a read of this

Iób

Thanks for the link. Hope Bayside station lives up to it's model!

The need for the interconnector is clear. It provides great interconnection and will deal with the city centre capacity problem.

But the report doesn't answer any of the questions about the airport link which will cause a capacity problem north of the city centre. (It almost seems like it's been put in to sweeten the pill for the politicians who are more concerned with how to get to the airport than with getting around the city.)

Metrobest

I&#243 wrote: »

Maybe he "heard it" from the P 11

By my reading of the plan, Travel from Howth/ Sutton or Bayside to Connolly or Tara (currently direct) will require a change at HJ and Pearse. Travel to anywhere south of Pearse (currently direct) will also require 2 changes - at HJ and Pearse. Travel to anywhere on the Maynooth line (currently change at Connolly) will mean 2 changes - at HJ and Pearse! Where are the two dozen stations?

Yes, that's exactly where I "heard it" from. The issues you mention are things I raised with Platform11 when I contributed to its message board fora. However, the "members" did not seem to like what I said and soon I was banned. Democracy, how are ya?

I think the Interconnector plan has some good aspects: electrification of Kildare/Maynooth lines, 4-tracking to Cherry Orchard, new station at Spencer Dock.

But where I disagree is the track routings. I think it's wrong to rob Peter in Howth to pay Paul in Clondalkin. Any study of passenger patronage on the Northern line should show a huge volume of passengers bound for Connolly and Tara, two of the most central stations; Connolly, indeed, being the ONLY central northside rail station under this plan.

IE should not have been greedy with their plans, promising a cheapo rail spur to the airport which will not/can not be effective. That's not just my opinion: it was stated repeatedly by experts at the IEI conference you have uploaded, Weehamster.

weehamster

I&#243 wrote: »

Thanks for the link. Hope Bayside station lives up to it's model!

The need for the interconnector is clear. It provides great interconnection and will deal with the city centre capacity problem.

But the report doesn't answer any of the questions about the airport link which will cause a capacity problem north of the city centre. (It almost seems like it's been put in to sweeten the pill for the politicians who are more concerned with how to get to the airport than with getting around the city.)

You must remember that when the DART is extended to Drogheda, the only Diesel Train service left are the Dundalk, Drogheda, Connolly and the Enterprise. This will free up capacity. Its the Diesel trains which are causing the warped timetable on the DART. And its getting worse as more and more people move out of Dublin to live.

So this is how the Airport Spur can fit. But as the service gets busier (and it will) the need to upgrade the Connolly to Howth Jtn to a 4 track will increase. This upgrade would have been a part of the Dublin Rail Plan but Irish Rail (IE) has the cost of the project at €500m. So IE feel that 4 track upgrade can wait till after the Dublin Rail Plan is compleated.

weehamster

@Metrobest
Howth has a DART, Clondalkin Doesn't
After the Dublin Rail Plan, Howth will still will have a DART and so will Clondalkin and other parts of Kildare, Meath and Louth. If fact you can go to Clondalkin and other part of Kildare, Meath and Louth from Howth on the DART. You cant do that now. So tell me how for Howth this can be worse.

Quite simply, there is no other option unless an extra €500m is spent upgrading the Northern DART line to a 4 track. If IE didnt seperate the Howth line, then the Drogheda to Kildare DART wouldnt work and well have the warped timetable we have today.

As for the Airport Spur, well, concidering that over 40,000 home are going to be constructed in the northern fringe where the line go through, this is according to Dublin City Council I wouldnt call this a cheapo line but a need line that happends to be headed for the Airport. Don forget that the Airport is a mere 3.5km from the current DART line with currently open fields . This is why its cheap. at €330m.

You see Metrobest, you appear to have no understanding for cost and how funding works. In an ideal word, I would build metros al over Dublin, but Im afraid in the real world we dont have that kind of money. The Airport Metro will be built in the future but only after the more important and cheaper Dublin Rail Plan.

The RPA lately are throwing out terrible versions of the metro just to make the cost attractive for funding. the latest one is from the top of O'Connol St to Airport whith no intergration with any other rail line. Are you going to carry your luggage from the top of O'Connell to the Luas at abbey street and over to Connolly station to get on the DART. Cost €1.9b.
The proper metro line like the 'Platform for change' metro from stephens green using Broadstone Station to Finglas and up to the Airport and on to Swords was valued at €4.8b in 2003. I love this to be built, but were is the funding going to come from. And please dont say PPP. That just makes it more expensive.

You might not want a so called cheapo spur but I dont want a expensive white elephant.

Iób

weehamster wrote:

So this is how the Airport Spur can fit.

What do you mean it can fit? Surely the reason for stopping the direct Howth services would be in order to make room for the airport services?

daz42C

Whereabouts On The Airport Spur Would Malahide Road Rail Station Be Situated?Also As Far As I Know The Same Person A "Mr Gannon" Is Buying The Stretch Of Land From The Old Baldoyle Racecourse As Far As The Old Belcamp Inn On The N32.Just In Case Anybody Wanted To Know! !

Iób

Weehamster,
Much of what you say makes perfect sense. Can the RPA really be proposing another piece of disconnected public transport infrastructure?

But in other instances you seem to have a definite position and to be squeezing the facts to match it.

weehamster wrote:

@Metrobest
Howth has a DART, Clondalkin Doesn't
After the Dublin Rail Plan, Howth will still will have a DART and so will Clondalkin and other parts of Kildare, Meath and Louth. If fact you can go to Clondalkin and other part of Kildare, Meath and Louth from Howth on the DART. You cant do that now. So tell me how for Howth this can be worse.

Given the discussion already, this seems deliberately obtuse.

Quite simply, there is no other option unless an extra €500m is spent upgrading the Northern DART line to a 4 track. If IE didnt seperate the Howth line, then the Drogheda to Kildare DART wouldnt work and well have the warped timetable we have today.

As for the Airport Spur, well, concidering that over 40,000 home are going to be constructed in the northern fringe where the line go through, this is according to Dublin City Council I wouldnt call this a cheapo line but a need line that happends to be headed for the Airport. Don forget that the Airport is a mere 3.5km from the current DART line with currently open fields . This is why its cheap. at €330m.

No. The line under consideration does not serve the new housing in the northern fringe which is presumably why IE propose to have two park and ride stations on it. (God knows why 2 stations instead of 1)

What is your view on linking the Metro to the Dart/Northern line at Donabate?

weehamster

@Ió;b
You said

But the report doesn't answer any of the questions about the airport link which will cause a capacity problem north of the city centre. (It almost seems like it's been put in to sweeten the pill for the politicians who are more concerned with how to get to the airport than with getting around the city.)

And I explained how Airport Spur wouldnt cause capacity problems. This as you've said means the Howth direct service would have to stop.

@daz42C

Whereabouts On The Airport Spur Would Malahide Road Rail Station Be Situated?Also As Far As I Know The Same Person A "Mr Gannon" Is Buying The Stretch Of Land From The Old Baldoyle Racecourse As Far As The Old Belcamp Inn On The N32.Just In Case Anybody Wanted To Know

The land for the DART airport spur has already been reserved by Fingal CoCo.

Iób

weehamster wrote:

This as you've said means the Howth direct service would have to stop.

sorry, what are you saying means the Howth direct service would have to stop?

weehamster

Given the discussion already, this seems deliberately obtuse.

excuse me?

No. The line under consideration does not serve the new housing in the northern fringe which is presumably why IE propose to have two park and ride stations on it. (God knows why 2 stations instead of 1)

No? do you know something that I dont?

The reason for the park and ride is to provide facilities so they can get extra business, ie commuters by car who dont want to drive into the city centre and can park their car with ease. The M1 just happend to be on the route and a great chance to get business.

Iób

weehamster wrote:

excuse me?

You asked metrobest to tell you how services from Howth would disimprove. This has already been gone through.

No? do you know something that I dont?

I know which land is zoned and which land isn't. It's public information. The link does not serve the zoned land.

Victor

weehamster wrote:

As for the Airport Spur, well, concidering that over 40,000 home are going to be constructed in the northern fringe

Housing for 40,000 (people). They will be served by a new town centre north of Baldoyle, and on the western side of the railway. Potentially two stations (only one currently planned) can be built on the existing line at Grange Road (because Howth Junction doesn't serve this area very well) and at the town centre. This will be fed by a QBC parallel to Clare Hall Road.

On the spur, additional stations are planned at Malahide Road, the M1 and the airport, although I think there is scope for expansion on this.

I&#243 wrote: »

No. The line under consideration does not serve the new housing in the northern fringe which is presumably why IE propose to have two park and ride stations on it. (God knows why 2 stations instead of 1)

4 legs gooood, 2 legs baaad.

What is your view on linking the Metro to the Dart/Northern line at Donabate?

I would personally prefer the option of mainline services operating via the airport, not Metro or (only) DART.

Metrobest

weehamster wrote:

@Metrobest
So tell me how for Howth this can be worse.

Quite simply, there is no other option unless an extra €500m is spent upgrading the Northern DART line to a 4 track. If IE didnt seperate the Howth line, then the Drogheda to Kildare DART wouldnt work and well have the warped timetable we have today.

As for the Airport Spur, well, concidering that over 40,000 home are going to be constructed in the northern fringe

You see Metrobest, you appear to have no understanding for cost and how funding works.

The RPA lately are throwing out terrible versions of the metro just to make the cost attractive for funding. the latest one is from the top of O'Connol St to Airport whith no intergration with any other rail line. Are you going to carry your luggage from the top of O'Connell to the Luas at abbey street and over to Connolly station to get on the DART. Cost €1.9b.
.

There are another options. Of course there are other options. One is to drop the Airport Spur and have direct services from Hazelhatch to Howth. Another is to simply leave the existing DART arrangement as it stands; terminate Maynooth trains in Drumcondra and Kildare trains at Heuston, and construct a circle line metro serving all the inner canal-side suburbs, including Drumcondra and Heuston, giving passengers swift connections to where they really want to go. This way, a lot more people could benefit from high quality transport in metropolitan Dublin. Not just the privileged few who, by an accident of colonial geography, happen to live near an existing line.

There may be a case for the RPA metro line, via Swords, to serve this new housing on the Northern Fringe you have mentioned (but why is it happening in the first place? bad planning...) and link up with the Northern line. This could result in trains to Drogheda via O’Connell Street and the Airport. If there is a case for that, god speed.

I do have an understanding of costs and funding. I'm not a fan of the RPA (they bungled the Red Luas line) but I am privy to exactly the same information as you are. I am sad to report you have chosen to mis-represent the RPA’s figures. They are not as large as you would suggest - €4.8bn was never the estimate for a single metro line to the airport: you know that.

To suggest that metro lines cannot be built for less than €1.5bn is a falsity.
See www.noordzuidlijn.nl for details of the €1.4bn, 9km Amsterdam metro. It has to naviagate complicated terrain (including a harbour, and narrow streets where the single bore tunnels will be 'stacked' one over the other to avoid damaging the historic buildings. And yet, this wonderful project will be up-and-running by 2009 and serving people who have never had access to a rail line. That's how it could - and should - be done in Dublin.

BrianD

Metro it would be preferable if existing lines could run into this interconnector rather than building a separate system. Melbourne has a "circle line" underground within the city. What happens that trains from the suburbs come into the city and enter the circle and do a loop either clockwise or anti-clockwise. This could be done in Dublin with the interconnector where the "through trains" provide the service for passenders going cross city or just going within the city.

In relation to Howth - it must have been suspected for a long time that Malahide would become the destination for many trains using the line. To me it is a logical choice and a more effective use of resources. Bad news for those living east of Howth junction! The Dart extension to Malahide made sense though I could never understand why the extension to Greystones was built.