Luas Derailed in Smithfield

KTRIC

Yet again the Luas was in another accident last night in Smithfeild. 5 people were taken to hospital and it has yet to be confirmed who caused the accident.

See artical :

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/02/22/story190424.html

enterprise

Truck driver - as usual.

See www.garaiste.com for full details.

BrianD

enterprise wrote:

Truck driver - as usual.

See www.garaiste.com for full details.

Bit unfair ... this is the first Luas/HGV incident.

enterprise

Well as Tram drivers are highly trained professionals at their job and the fact that the truck hit the tram 1/3 down the tram by the wheelchair space my bets are on the truck driver running the red light and ploughing into the side of the tram.

Thank God nobody was serious injuried.

magpie

Anybody done any projections on the cost of pay-outs to injured LUAS passengers in its first year of operations? The thing gets rammed more often than a Belfast ATM, and presumably people are getting on the Compo wagon.

enterprise

magpie wrote:

The thing gets rammed more often

"The Thing" being the LUAS!

I would tend to disagree with that. Operations had been running smoothly for the last couple of months with no reported incidents of road vehicles hitting trams until last night. As with any system nothing is 100% safe and accidents can / and will happen from time to time.

(Media organisations take note - "ROAD VEHICLES hitting TRAMS", not the other way around)

seamus

magpie wrote:

Anybody done any projections on the cost of pay-outs to injured LUAS passengers in its first year of operations? The thing gets rammed more often than a Belfast ATM, and presumably people are getting on the Compo wagon.

Well, I assume that the majority of compo would be claimed against the other party's insurance, since it's mostly the road vehicle that's at fault. With the notable exception of trams hitting trams of course

magpie

Operations had been running smoothly for the last couple of months with no reported incidents of road vehicles hitting trams until last night

A whole couple of months without an accident? Keep up the good work lads.

jman0

What can the Luas people do about motorists behavior?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/02/22/story190460.html

"There have been a series of accidents on the Red Line from Tallaght to Connolly station, with most of them blamed on motorists jumping red lights."

enterprise

magpie wrote:

A whole couple of months without an accident? Keep up the good work lads.

No need to be condescending. It's hardly the fault of Connex when a ROAD VEHICLE DRIVER breaks a red light, thus committing an offence under the road traffic act.

Until the Gardai start penalising drivers for breaking red lights this sort of thiing will keep occuring.

sliabh

RTE is reporting 22 accidents in the first six months. Before someone spouts off about the Irish and their lack of respect for traffic laws does anyone know of data (and NOT anecdotes) from other countries?

I know the figures quoted from before the Luas launch was an estimate of about 6 deaths in the first year of operation. We do seem to be well below this.

magpie

No need to be condescending. It's hardly the fault of Connex when a ROAD VEHICLE DRIVER breaks a red light, thus committing an offence under the road traffic act.

Well, given that people are going top do it whatever, why not phase the LUAS green light so there's a couple of seconds delay to allow the junction to clear. Or even better, have LUAS drivers exercise their own discretion in not ploughing into a full junction, the way other drivers have to.

enterprise

As with any traffic light change there is a 3 sec delay from one set of lights turning red to the second set turning green / proceed.

On top of that you have the yellow light (which means stop if safe to do so people - not floor the accelator!) before the red.

Driving standards are the root cause of the problem - not traffic lights.

bringitdown

magpie wrote:

Well, given that people are going top do it whatever, why not phase the LUAS green light so there's a couple of seconds delay to allow the junction to clear. Or even better, have LUAS drivers exercise their own discretion in not ploughing into a full junction, the way other drivers have to.

What a load of crap... there is a slight delay between the red light on a crossing and the luas getting the go-ahead, regardless or that there is also an orange light for motorists to ignore.

Orange != GO FASTER YA MIGHT MAKE IT DESPITE THE GIANT TRAM THAT NEEDS TO CROSS

AAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

Honestly .. I call troll on you.

murphaph

People (read motorists) are stupid. On my journey from Tallaght to Connolly today the driver had to blow drivers out of it 4 times for obstructing the tram in one way or another. Learn to drive, control lines are to be stopped before! Yellow boxes etc. etc. Very annoying when the tram has a schedule to keep.

magpie

You know a great way to avoid traffic blocking the route? Have trains going underground.

Metrobest

Anecdotally, on the two tram lines near my house in Amsterdam I can report an accident rate of about one per month. Sometimes it's a collision with a cyclist.

sliabh wrote:

RTE is reporting 22 accidents in the first six months. Before someone spouts off about the Irish and their lack of respect for traffic laws does anyone know of data (and NOT anecdotes) from other countries?

I know the figures quoted from before the Luas launch was an estimate of about 6 deaths in the first year of operation. We do seem to be well below this.

enterprise

magpie wrote:

You know a great way to avoid traffic blocking the route? Have trains going underground.

Then it wouldn't be a tram. Trams are designed to run OVERGROUND and do so quite sucessfully if dumb-ass drivers didn't break red lights. Dublin isn't the only system to suffer such accidents. The one in Croydon has an accident about one a month, usually a road users fault.

magpie

A tram is a train that runs on the road. Same difference.

If the same thing happens in Croydon, then you can't blame it on Irish drivers, as you were in earlier posts. The problem with trams is they attempt to alleviate traffic congestion by taking up one of the lanes on the road. Brilliant.

If collisions with other road users are symptomatic of the tram experience in general then surely this tells you that trams are an unsuitable mode of transport for modern urban conditions, rather than blaming everyone else on the roads. Why not pick a form of transport that is less likely to have accidents?

Like I've always held, the LUAS was a collossal White Elephant, the spiralling costs of which could have constructed a safe, fast underground system (if we had managed to follow Madrid's example).

enterprise

magpie wrote:

Like I've always held, the LUAS was a collossal White Elephant, the spiralling costs of which could have constructed a safe, fast underground system (if we had managed to follow Madrid's example).

Collossal White Elephant:

Tell that to the 6 million people (myself included) that have used both lines since the system opened in June and September. The Green line is now carring 30,000 people a day, up from 20,000 at the start. White Elephant, I don't think so mate.

It seems clear to me that you have never stepped on board a tram in your life.

Finally - I said Drivers attitudes, I didn't mention Irish anywhere.

magpie

And a similar amount of people wouldn't have used an equivalent underground? I don't follow your logic.

And you're right, I've never been on the LUAS as it doesn't go to/from anywhere I need to be.

Might I be so bold as to deduce from your age/status that you've never driven a car, hence your militant stance on the LUAS?

enterprise

magpie wrote:

And a similar amount of people wouldn't have used an equivalent underground? I don't follow your logic.

And you're right, I've never been on the LUAS as it doesn't go to/from anywhere I need to be.

Might I be so bold as to deduce from your age/status that you've never driven a car, hence your militant stance on the LUAS?

LOL. I luvin it!

FYI I hold a full qualified drivers license. Do I drive into the city centre? No - I would be crazy to do that when I have good public transport options available to me by Connex and Dublin Bus.

murphaph

The Luas doesn't attempt to alleviate traffic congestion by taking up a traffic lane, it succeeds in alleviating traffic congestion by taking tens of thousands of people from a-b daily on a mass transit system. Do you work for the AA? Perhaps Conor Faughnan's apprentice?

The Madrid metro is seen as some sort of Holy Grail since that Professor came over here. It's a pretty rubbish metro (2 car sets commonplace) by international standards and that's why it cost so little. Trams have a place in a modern urban environment. Should we scrap the pedestrianised zones of Grafton and Henry Street because they take up roadspace?

For the record, I'm also a full licence holder. I recently ceased being a motorist however and returned to cycling/public transport as my circumstances changed and I no longer required a car to get me where I need to go.

magpie

Do I drive into the city centre? No

Mum won't let you borrow the car? But seriously, I'm glad to hear it. I think a step in the right direction would be to take a 2 mile radius from the GPO and charge €10 to bring a car into the city centre from outside that radius (like the London system), then your lovely trams could gambol freely on the empty roads.

It's a pretty rubbish metro (2 car sets commonplace) by international standards and that's why it cost so little

How many times has it crashed into cars/trucks since it was set up? How many times has it been derailed?

Should we scrap the pedestrianised zones of Grafton and Henry Street because they take up roadspace?

Pedestrianised zones are a pretty modern concept actually. You probably don't remember, but you used to be able to drive up and park on Grafton St. Making Grafton/Henry St back into working roads would be a retrograde anachronistic gesture. A bit like installing trams in the 21st century. Ding-Ding!

murphaph

Hmmm, an avid motorist is always entertaining. Just because a metro doesn't crash into things doesn't make it a good metro (not crashing into things is a basic requirement of most metros!).

FYI, London wants to re-introduce trams to complement their already well developed rail based PT system. I'm not talking about Croydon Tramlink-I'm talking about central London. Trams are very people friendly-no descending stairs etc, just hop on hop off. Vehicles are not people friendly. Simple really.

enterprise

magpie wrote:

Mum won't let you borrow the car?

HA HA - Very funny! You mite be shocked to learn :eek: :eek: that I have surpassed that stage. I live with my partner actually.

And I agree with you - Congestion Charging should be introduced in the inner cordon area of the city. Now that would be nice - but thats a topic for another day to have a battle about!

enterprise

murphaph wrote:

Hmmm, an avid motorist is always entertaining.

FYI, London wants to re-introduce trams to complement their already well developed rail based PT system. I'm not talking about Croydon Tramlink-I'm talking about central London. Trams are very people friendly-no descending stairs etc, just hop on hop off. Vehicles are not people friendly. Simple really.

Indeed it is!

London has two schemes in the pipe line. A cross-river tram running from Kings Cross and Camden, via Euston and Waterloo, to Peckham and Brixton and a West London Tram system running from Shepherd’s Bush to Uxbridge. This line would run along the A4020, the Uxbridge Road, through Acton, Ealing, West Ealing, Hanwell, Southall and Hayes End.

More details on both systems may be found at:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/trams/initiatives/ini_index.shtml

magpie

Hmmm, an avid motorist is always entertaining

FYI (as you keep saying in a 'Murphy Brown' kind of way) I'm an avid pedestrian. Unfortunately I have to drive somewhere maybe once/twice a week. If I had to go to Tallaght from Connolly or Sandyford from Stephens Green I'm sure the LUAS would be tip-top, but I don't.

Just because a metro doesn't crash into things doesn't make it a good metro (not crashing into things is a basic requirement of most metros!).

As opposed to trams, where it is clearly accepted as 'teething pains'.

And I agree with you - Congestion Charging should be introduced in the inner cordon area of the city. Now that would be nice - but thats a topic for another day to have a battle about!

Good, we're agreed then.

BrianD

magpie wrote:

A tram is a train that runs on the road. Same difference. If the same thing happens in Croydon, then you can't blame it on Irish drivers, as you were in earlier posts. The problem with trams is they attempt to alleviate traffic congestion by taking up one of the lanes on the road.
Brilliant.

A tram is not the same as a train. I suspect that you are one of the people who can't understand the rationale behind 24 hour bus lanes and complain about them. In reality, the number of places where either line takes up road space is very limited or does not make much difference. Take the red line - much of if is on its own reservation (centre of Naas Rd, canal bank and the section from the red cow to Tallaght etc.) where it does run on street it is not on a primary through way e.g. the routing from Collins Barracks to Connolly. East-west traffic runs via the quays or the NCR. The red line routing was never a through way. On the green line you lose 2 lanes of a one way st.

A comparison was done between the intoduction of the luas in Dublin and a similar system in a French city. While there was a number of incidents when the French line was open it was nothing compared to what was happening in Dublin. The main reason was that Irish drivers have a high propensity to break a red light. Its often that a number of cars will go through the light seconds after is has go to red.

magpie wrote:

If collisions with other road users are symptomatic of the tram experience in general then surely this tells you that trams are an unsuitable mode of transport for modern urban conditions, rather than blaming everyone else on the roads. Why not pick a form of transport that is less likely to have accidents?

There have been few accidents on the Luas lines. The red light jumpers are deliberate actions by motorists. The incident involving trams on the green line was a similar deliberate action. Why are trams being introduced (sometimes re-introduced) in cities all over Europe and North America?

magpie wrote:

Like I've always held, the LUAS was a collossal White Elephant, the spiralling costs of which could have constructed a safe, fast underground system (if we had managed to follow Madrid's example).

The words rip-roaring success come to mind for both lines. Trams are very suited to Dublin. A sole metro line to the airport - now that's a white elephant!

magpie wrote:

How many times has it crashed into cars/trucks since it was set up? How many times has it been derailed?

How many times have cars/trucks crashed into it (not the other way around)? Very few when you take the number of journies. Very few derailments as well. Derailments are to be expected from any train/tram network. Are you aware how many derailments Irish Rail or any other rail operator has per week? IR have 3-4 on average - most are insignificant.

Lennoxschips

I've never been much of a fan of trams in the crowded streets of the city. In Amsterdam the bike beats the tram hands down from any destination to any destination within the city ventre.

In the suburbs, where the trams run along dedicated corridors, they are great though.

MrPudding

magpie wrote:

If collisions with other road users are symptomatic of the tram experience in general then surely this tells you that trams are an unsuitable mode of transport for modern urban conditions, rather than blaming everyone else on the roads. Why not pick a form of transport that is less likely to have accidents?

How about we introduce some kind of system whereby the use of a junction is staggered? People could take turns to use it. We would need some kind of changing signs that would let people know whos turn it was, perhaps lights so it would also work in the dark. Yeah we could call them traffic control lights.... no too long, just traffic lights. Yeah traffic lights. We could even incorporate an international standard into the system so even visitors to our country could understand it. I read somewhere that is most civilised, and some other developing countries they use a series of 3 lights. Green when you can go, amber top get ready to stop (and in some countries to get ready to go) and red to stop. That way when a Luas is crossing the junction you could make the traffic have a red light so the vehicles wouldn't drive into the side of it.

What do you think? Could it catch on? I think it is simple enough, when you see a red light stop you car.

MrP