That's it. My next car's a Citroen...

Hairy Homer

..or maybe even a Peugeot.

Have a read (or listen) to this bozo on 'top rated US News Channel' Fox News. Name of O'Reilly. Claims to be of Irish origin. Click on the video tab to hear him in all his righteous indignation.

Apparently France now supports terrorists. Er, bit like it did back in the American Revolutionary days.

If it wasn't so serious, his paranoid ranting style would be laughable.

The Clown Man

Scary, really scary.

true

America does seem to have a good point about the Hezbollah though : why are these not outlawed in France ? The problem may stem from the fact the population of France is 10 % muslim, and growing. Hence it does not take a strong view on muslim terrorism, for fear of alienating some of its population.

BlitzKrieg

answer:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1908671.stm

While, the US listed the group as a terrorist organisation, the government in Beirut declared it a national resistance movement

pickarooney

true wrote:

America does seem to have a good point about the Hezbollah though : why are these not outlawed in France ? The problem may stem from the fact the population of France is 10 % muslim, and growing. Hence it does not take a strong view on muslim terrorism, for fear of alienating some of its population.

Muslim != terrorist. Do you really not get that after all this time?

Hairy Homer

Is it just me or is there a delicious irony in the fact that his piece is followed by an ad that has a voiceover of Roosevelt saying 'all we have to fear is fear itself' ?

The guy peddles paranoia and his producer schedules one of the most optimistic and reassuring speeches ever to follow it.

Oh well. What can you expect from a guy who uses a vibrator on himself? See line 81

Hobbes

Oh come on! O'Reilly did single handly save Sponge bob! :rolleyes:

Goodshape

$15 for a 'The Spin Stops Here' mug in the O'Reilly shop. Right next to the 'Boycott France' bumper stickers.

It's irony on a base level.. but I like it.

ionapaul

Although Fox 'News' is the most watched US news network, the majority of those who watch Bill O'Reilly aren't objective folks looking to find out what is happening in the world. They have made their minds up and just want to watch / be entertained (cause he is entertaining, without question) by O'Reilly spout off on the topic of the day and attempt to bully those who disagree with him. He's not out affecting hearts and minds, just preaching to the choir.

He can also be fairly funny at times, and not as scary / freakish as Coulter.

sovtek

Stuman134 wrote:

I'm an American. I'm everything that being an American entails. I am part of a nationalist society (of course, not in the same context as it pertains to the nationalist/unionist struggle...of course I wouldn't know anything about that since I can't see around my inflated ego to see what is going on in the rest of the world). I am part of a crusader society, though we are not trying to bring christianity to the holy lands as your neighbors once tried, we are just trying to keep the price of oil down. I come from a country that was not created by revolutionaries who felt that they had the right to govern themselves, but from a land that was forged by bigoted terrorist already hellbent on world domination in this fledgeling land. I feel like I'm forgetting something...oh yes I am an uneduceted aMeiracAn trained by a flawed schoolin system, which only spits out rednek hillbillys, who are convinced that John Wayne single handedly won WWII himself (yeah go Duke!!!!). Does this sound about right to you ? Well give this dumb, rude arrogant american a chance to teach you ladies and gentlemen what America really is. America is the world's financial center. You think the world economy hinges on London, Frankfurt, or Tokyo. Nope, it all revolves around New York. When America is booming, it doens't necessarily mean the rest of the world is, but when our economy is flagging, so goes the rest of the world. On top of this, America is the world's entitlement center. We hand out more interest free money to third world nations than any two countries combined. I can't say this for certain, but I would be willing to bet that we also write off more foreign debt owed to us than any other country loans out to those in need. We are the world's police, its defenders. We send our own citizens to face death in the defense of our allies...even when our national interests are not at stake (though I don't blame anyone for thinking otherwise...what media orginization in the world is going to report U.S. military involvement, unless they can find a way to concoct some neferious U.S. plot behind it). We are the world's cradle of innovation. Despite our horrible education system, we somehow manage to put forth the latest technologies, and make the most advances towards improving humankinds quality of living. Our universities teach many people from all corners of the globe in fields such as electrical engineering, computer science, microbiology, physics, astronomy, physical chemistry and much more. We use your universities as a chance to gain life experience, backpack around europe, and be able to come back home and say "I drank guiness in a real authentic Irish pub." Pretty much a year long spring break. We are a nation of international mediators. You know this from the effort our former President Clinton made in fostering a peace in Northern Ireland. It saddens me to see that in the end, he might not make the difference that I had hoped. Just from the posts I have read on this site, the region still sounds like a powder keg waiting for the fuse to be lit once again. But know this. If the isle of Ireland were to erupt into full scale violence, if the whole island fell into a state of civil unrest, the United States would hardly be affected. It would barely register as a small blip on our national interest radar. It didn't stop us from taking an interest though, and it didn't stop us from trying to do what we could to end the violence. Which brings me to the point of this whole rant. The United States isn't a utopia. We have our share of problems, and we have made our share of mistakes (judging by your posts, you certainly haven't overlooked our errors as a nation). We try to do the right thing as a people, most of the time we succeed, sometimes we do not. I know this post will in all likelyhood generate inflamed responses. I know that I am just inviting everyone who posts on this board to carefully comb through this writing and find anything they can contest, and throw it back in my face. In the end this post will not change any of your minds about the United States. All this post has probably accomplished is to bring more hateful speach upon the USA. But know this. You can discredit all that the US has done. You can take us for granted. You can profess your hatred about us. You can call the US the very eye of syphilis upon the world. You can spit on our flag. You can paint pictures of our first lady (the president's wife if anyone didn't know that) standing over bodies of dead Iraqi children. You can do all of this until the end of time. It doesn't matter, when you have a problem, we will always stand by you and the rest of our allies. No matter how you feel about us, we will come when called. Why ? Because despite all our power, despite all our wealth, we will never forget what our duty to the world and our allies is. That is what really defines an American.

P.S. For those of you who participated in the post about America's lack of involvement in the Kyoto treaty...I wonder can you tell me who leads the world in researching environmentally safer technologies? Can you tell me who leads the world in alternative energy sources research? Can you tell me which country is behind the invention of the Displacement on Demand Engine ? Need I go on...

Why are you going on this defensive rant of America when the clear object of derision here is spinmaster Mr. O'reilly?

The Corinthian

Stuman134 wrote:

P.S. For those of you who participated in the post about America's lack of involvement in the Kyoto treaty...I wonder can you tell me who leads the world in researching environmentally safer technologies?

The European Union.

MrPudding

Stuman134 wrote:

I'm an American. I'm everything that being an American entails. I am part of a nationalist society (of course, not in the same context as it pertains to the nationalist/unionist struggle...of course I wouldn't know anything about that since I can't see around my inflated ego to see what is going on in the rest of the world). I am part of a crusader society, though we are not trying to bring christianity to the holy lands as your neighbors once tried, we are just trying to keep the price of oil down. I come from a country that was not created by revolutionaries who felt that they had the right to govern themselves, but from a land that was forged by bigoted terrorist already hellbent on world domination in this fledgeling land. I feel like I'm forgetting something...oh yes I am an uneduceted aMeiracAn trained by a flawed schoolin system, which only spits out rednek hillbillys, who are convinced that John Wayne single handedly won WWII himself (yeah go Duke!!!!). Does this sound about right to you ? Well give this dumb, rude arrogant american a chance to teach you ladies and gentlemen what America really is. America is the world's financial center. You think the world economy hinges on London, Frankfurt, or Tokyo. Nope, it all revolves around New York. When America is booming, it doens't necessarily mean the rest of the world is, but when our economy is flagging, so goes the rest of the world. On top of this, America is the world's entitlement center. We hand out more interest free money to third world nations than any two countries combined. I can't say this for certain, but I would be willing to bet that we also write off more foreign debt owed to us than any other country loans out to those in need. We are the world's police, its defenders. We send our own citizens to face death in the defense of our allies...even when our national interests are not at stake (though I don't blame anyone for thinking otherwise...what media orginization in the world is going to report U.S. military involvement, unless they can find a way to concoct some neferious U.S. plot behind it). We are the world's cradle of innovation. Despite our horrible education system, we somehow manage to put forth the latest technologies, and make the most advances towards improving humankinds quality of living. Our universities teach many people from all corners of the globe in fields such as electrical engineering, computer science, microbiology, physics, astronomy, physical chemistry and much more. We use your universities as a chance to gain life experience, backpack around europe, and be able to come back home and say "I drank guiness in a real authentic Irish pub." Pretty much a year long spring break. We are a nation of international mediators. You know this from the effort our former President Clinton made in fostering a peace in Northern Ireland. It saddens me to see that in the end, he might not make the difference that I had hoped. Just from the posts I have read on this site, the region still sounds like a powder keg waiting for the fuse to be lit once again. But know this. If the isle of Ireland were to erupt into full scale violence, if the whole island fell into a state of civil unrest, the United States would hardly be affected. It would barely register as a small blip on our national interest radar. It didn't stop us from taking an interest though, and it didn't stop us from trying to do what we could to end the violence. Which brings me to the point of this whole rant. The United States isn't a utopia. We have our share of problems, and we have made our share of mistakes (judging by your posts, you certainly haven't overlooked our errors as a nation). We try to do the right thing as a people, most of the time we succeed, sometimes we do not. I know this post will in all likelyhood generate inflamed responses. I know that I am just inviting everyone who posts on this board to carefully comb through this writing and find anything they can contest, and throw it back in my face. In the end this post will not change any of your minds about the United States. All this post has probably accomplished is to bring more hateful speach upon the USA. But know this. You can discredit all that the US has done. You can take us for granted. You can profess your hatred about us. You can call the US the very eye of syphilis upon the world. You can spit on our flag. You can paint pictures of our first lady (the president's wife if anyone didn't know that) standing over bodies of dead Iraqi children. You can do all of this until the end of time. It doesn't matter, when you have a problem, we will always stand by you and the rest of our allies. No matter how you feel about us, we will come when called. Why ? Because despite all our power, despite all our wealth, we will never forget what our duty to the world and our allies is. That is what really defines an American.

P.S. For those of you who participated in the post about America's lack of involvement in the Kyoto treaty...I wonder can you tell me who leads the world in researching environmentally safer technologies? Can you tell me who leads the world in alternative energy sources research? Can you tell me which country is behind the invention of the Displacement on Demand Engine ? Need I go on...

Can you tell me what a paragraph is?

MrP

MrPudding

Stuman134 wrote:

LOL...Something I forget to use when I start ranting.

The Corinthian

Stuman134 wrote:

Yeah...I'm pretty sure these great EU environmental technology advancements are the reason the EU decided to not set targets for lowering greenhouse gases after the first period of the Kyoto treaty ends in 2012.

Does that make my statement less correct or did you have another point?

sovtek

Stuman134 wrote:

A fair point Sovtek. Mostly because this was the last post I read before I decided to respond. This post is by no means the most anti-american one located on this site, but the undertones are certainly there.

I think it's an anti-O'rielly post rather than an anti-american one. I rarely see anything on here I would term anti-American.

The comparision of the U.S. to a terrorist state, and the labeling of FNC as the most watched news channel in the U.S. implies that Mr. O'Rielly speaks for a large chunk of the nation kind of torqued me. Yes FNC is the most watched news only channel, however all U.S. news specific only channels are carried over a cable tv signal, meaning that they have a tremendously smaller viewership than over-air networks.

But a scary number of people do watch Fox in America and believe the propoganda they spout.
Seconldy I think the comparison of America as a terrorist state is just as fair as comparing France to a terrorist state?
Do you not agree?
Technically they both could be called as such.

and believe me, there are plenty of other boards in Europe who's members take their shots at the U.S.

Are you sure you aren't conflating "taking shots" at Bush with "taking shots" at America?

Jimboo_Jones

Stuman134 wrote:

Yeah...I'm pretty sure the EU would probably be behind Japan in that regard, not to mention...well you know who

You really should try and qualify some of your claims, as otherwise you come across as ‘hey we are the best because we are America’ which is what I thought you where trying to deflect from in the first place ;p

sovtek

Stuman134 wrote:

We hand out more interest free money to third world nations than any two countries combined.

And any fair comparison is measured by GDP...which America is dead last in amongst the first world nations.
Nevermind that almost half is to arm Israel and their illegal occupation of the Gaza strip and West Bank and still more for the oppressive government in Cairo.

I can't say this for certain, but I would be willing to bet that we also write off more foreign debt owed to us than any other country loans out to those in need.

....and I'm not even going into what the US uses the IMF for (while acknowledging the EU is no saint here either)...so I wouldn't brag about that.

We are the world's police, its defenders. We send our own citizens to face death in the defense of our allies...even when our national interests are not at stake (though I don't blame anyone for thinking otherwise...what media orginization in the world is going to report U.S. military involvement, unless they can find a way to concoct some neferious U.S. plot behind it).

Which would explain the virtual silence about (in America and Europe) Haiti and the "rebels" that are slaughtering Aristide supporters after his "democratic" toppling by ex-CIA assets.

We are the world's cradle of innovation. Despite our horrible education system, we somehow manage to put forth the latest technologies, and make the most advances towards improving humankinds quality of living. Our universities teach many people from all corners of the globe in fields such as electrical engineering, computer science, microbiology, physics, astronomy, physical chemistry and much more.

And Europe shares prestigious Universities that excel in all of the above as well.

You can take us for granted. You can profess your hatred about us.

I'm sorry but I haven't seen one person do that here.

P.S. For those of you who participated in the post about America's lack of involvement in the Kyoto treaty...I wonder can you tell me who leads the world in researching environmentally safer technologies?

Who leads the world in carbon emmissions?

delop

Stuman134 wrote:

. I come from a country that was not created by revolutionaries who felt that they had the right to govern themselves, but from a land that was forged by bigoted terrorist already hellbent on world domination in this fledgeling land.

???? Was that terrorist an English King? And was he worried about terrorist's running about flouting his tax laws, did not the french support those terrorist's and help kick the english out of America, No they werent terrorist's, they were just resisting a cruel greedy Regime ... As someone once said One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter...
An example of this is Nelson Mandella, a good frien of Clinton, was deemed one of the worst terrorists by Bush 1, along with the ANC

Stuman134 wrote:

America is the world's financial center. You think the world economy hinges on London, Frankfurt, or Tokyo. Nope, it all revolves around New York. When America is booming, it doens't necessarily mean the rest of the world is, but when our economy is flagging, so goes the rest of the world.

Seeing as how America controls the World bank and WTO, does not suprise me

Stuman134 wrote:

On top of this, America is the world's entitlement center. We hand out more interest free money to third world nations than any two countries combined. I can't say this for certain, but I would be willing to bet that we also write off more foreign debt owed to us than any other country loans out to those in need. We are the world's police, its defenders. We send our own citizens to face death in the defense of our allies...even when our national interests are not at stake (though I don't blame anyone for thinking otherwise...what media orginization in the world is going to report U.S. military involvement, unless they can find a way to concoct some neferious U.S. plot behind it).

Id like to see some Facts and figures on this, if possible please? Are you speaking about Israel and Turkey? because military aid dont count !

Stuman134 wrote:

We are a nation of international mediators. You know this from the effort our former President Clinton made in fostering a peace in Northern Ireland.

Regime change in Venezuela, Nicaragua and attempted Regime change in cuba dont count...

Stuman134 wrote:

I know this post will in all likelyhood generate inflamed responses.

Is that how the current administration thinks also, 'we are going to invade this country regardless of how upset any one else is, with me or agains me!

It struck me one day, that America Attacked Afganistian because they were attacked by people who were being supported by the Gov of Afganistian , no proof was fortcoming , So Does that give the Palestinians the right to bomb america from the air because of the support America gives Israel ???

Look Im not qualified to comment being a non american and not being a blimp on your radar, so why not listen to one of your own...

Noam Chomskey - Hegemony or Survuval

sovtek

Stuman134 wrote:

I checked his latest ratings and he is pulling in a solid 2.4 million viewer audience. A lot of people...almost 1% of the nations population. I don't think that 1% is quite enough to topple the government and install a hard line right wing regime in the white house...but they are getting there .

I think the Bush regime far right enough.

As far as France and the U.S. being the same kind of terrorist state.

I was refering to what kind of groups they fund and give aid to all over the world. A fair few of them could be called terrorist orgs.

As for the Bush or USA argument, maybe I have misinterpreted who or what the venomous statements were directed at. However I see my country called out by name, much more than I see my president. Show me the error in my thinking on this issue and I will glady apologize for that too.

I think most comments are aimed at the US government...which has itself to blame for it's own reputation.

Lemming

Stuman134 wrote:

As for the you know who...America of course, I can qualify my statements. We lead the world in number of environmental research companies, we lead the world in the number of environmental related patents. Our universities have more grants for environmental research than any other nation. That is what I'm basing America's dominance in the environmental technologies (consider this as my other point Corinthian). As for my previous rant I stand by what I say and challenge you to disprove them.

There's a failed, mistaken belief in that above quote that patents are a good thing. Patents are only as good as the manner in which they are used. There are many fortune 500 companies who have massive patent portfolios for no other reason than to stop their competitors.

It's all about control. I'm willing to bet that the car & oil industries have huge environmental patent portfolios for no other reason than to block emerging technology that could threaten the status-quo

If you want to see examples of such patent-abuse, just take a look at the software industry inside the US for myriad examples of tactical patent applications & actions.

As for your claims on academic excellence, there has been a sizeable drop in the number of foreign applications inside the last few years with the increasingly xenophobic & invasive-to-the-point-of-abuse immigration control and the PATRIOT act. If I can find the article, which quotes a US senator, I'll post it. In short, students are starting to look elsewhere.

ionapaul

sovtek wrote:

...a scary number of people do watch Fox in America and believe the propoganda they spout.

That may be true, but as I mentioned earlier, O'Reilly and Fox aren't making many 'conversions' of liberals here, they are merely preaching to the choir. There is an element of conservatives / right-wingers / whatever in that country that believe all the rubbish spouted by O'Reilly, Coulter, Carlson and the usual suspects, but its not like their audience is made up of objective independents or anything - they are watched and listened by dyed-in-the-wool conservatives.

It is the same in our own country - I bet you'll find that readers of An Phoblacht are mainly Sinn Fein supporters who believe Gerry Adams when he says he knew nothing of IRA involvement in the recent bank raid, while readers of the Sunday Independent are more likely to believe he is lying, with or without any prompting or influence from newspaper articles or editorials.

Lemming

Stuman134 wrote:

As far as Israel's "illegal occupation" lest us not forget Israel did not start that war, they just won it.

And then proceeded to abuse that position.

We do sometimes support opressive regimes, I will admit that, but it isn't bychoice, it is because it is a matter of national defense.

I believe the correct term is not "national defense" as opposed to "national interest". Which is much less benign.

Really, do you think America and its leaders say to themselves "Lets find us some evil corrupt despots and give them cash for the fun of it." We have our reasons and sometimes we are wrong, but we do have to defend ourselves as a nation at all costs...

US foreign policy seems to have been wrong most of the time in whom it chose to back ...

I don't have a problem with defence - I have a problem with the "at all costs" bit. US foreign policy has created far more enemies and dissent than it has achieved any sort of successful results. The US is now engaged in a war that cannot be "won" in the conventional sense of the word. It's people are now an even bigger target around the globe and the people are paranoid of their own neighbours.

Sometimes "Defense of the nation" involves trying to preserve what your nation stands for. As soon as a nation changes and restricts its citizens freedoms terrorism has succeeded.

This I will agree with you on. Though I will say that we certainly teach a considerably larger amount of foreign students than any other nation (only because we have the most universities in the world I will admit).

in relation to my last post, that has begun to change over the last few years. Even the student summer work-visa numbres in Ireland have begun to shift. To blame is the PATRIOT act and the increasingly xenophobic beauraucracy and immigration policies faced by foreign students

You want us to cut our emissions. Stop buying our products. Lobby your government to boycott american goods. Throw our factories out of your union. Say "No American company that contributes to global warming shall have a foothold in the European Union!" That will get our attention, and get us to cut our CO2 emissions. Plus, I'm sure the EU economy would suffer no adverse affects from that...yeah right

You seem to be forgetting something .... the US would be affected to. Global trade is global trade Stuman. Nobody is immune to its effects.

delop

Stuman134 wrote:

You want us to cut our emissions.

How many miles to the gallon does your car get ?

mr_angry

Stuntman, do you not think that America could be even better if they cut out all the negative stuff they engage in? I think Ireland is a great place to live, and a brilliant country in general, but that doesn't mean I stick up for people like Liam Lawlor when they do something obviously wrong. In fact, I'd like to see our corrupt politicians weeded out.

Would I criticise people for criticising Liam Lawlor? Hell no. So fair enough - make the point that America has a number of good aspects to it, but as for condoning assasination attempts and funding dictatorships... national security? Yeah right. Stinking self-interest more like.

Jimboo_Jones

Stuman134 wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by "measured in GDP" Do you mean money donated in relation to a nations GDP ?

True - but the % of GDP does show who is the most generous country. Though your right in saying that, though Americans are less generous, they are richer and alot more of them than there are europeans and therefore give out more money, which to the people reciving the money is the main thing.

This said - its all speculation on my front as neither of the above posters have linked any proof. I seem to remember the Scandinavian countries being listed as the most generous in the donations measured against GDP though.

sovtek

Stuman134 wrote:

As far as Israel's "illegal occupation" lest us not forget Israel did not start that war, they just won it.

Which one is that? 1948? 1956? 1967? Because Israel started all three...and it doesn't matter who started it...the UN Charter makes it quite clear (nevermind a pile of resolutions telling Israel to give the land back).

sovtek

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

which to the people reciving the money is the main thing.

Not if it's to buy attack helicopters.

Jimboo_Jones

sovtek wrote:

Not if it's to buy attack helicopters.

ahh to the people reciving the money to buy the attack helicopters it is the main thing .. and looking into the stats it would seem that the lion share of the aid given by America is to israel, which I would guess is hardly going to pay for food and shelter.

The link to the stats by the way

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_eco_aid_don_cap

The big suprise would be that America is only second in total amount of money (though their stats are a couple of years out of date)

This is backed up on this site as well

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

*edit* sorry stuman's stats are backed up on this site ^ *edit*

Lemming

Stuman134 wrote:

As far as the patriot act, it is a typical reaction from a country that has never experienced large scale terrorism on its shores before. It will evolve with time. I'm curious, have you read the Patriot Act ?

Yes I have actually. And most alarmed that such an act could get passed with little or no debate. Most politicians seemed to be so afraid of appearing to be "unpatriotic" in the aftermath of 9/11 that they just rubber-stamped anything that came their way.

I was even more alarmed when it was found out that Ashcroft was drawing up PATRIOT II, and the TIAA

Incidentally it's not a "typical reaction" since most of what the PATRIOT act did was allow the unparalleled monitoring of the US' own citizens. The act was a power-grab by a lot of security branches who basically "wished they could trim a little fat off the constitution" ....

delop

Stuman134 wrote:

As far as the patriot act, it is a typical reaction from a country that has never experienced large scale terrorism on its shores before.

You having a laugh? It was the Irish that were the first in the world to invent/use the car bomb, nothing to be proud of!!

And it was the israel, Perpetrated the first major terrorist act of the 20th century, against the British... Now werent they good teachers, and they have only got better at it....

Nuttzz

delop wrote:

You having a laugh? It was the Irish that were the first in the world to invent/use the car bomb, nothing to be proud of!!

And it was the israel, Perpetrated the first major terrorist act of the 20th century, against the British... Now werent they good teachers, and they have only got better at it....

I think he means that the US when he says "it is a typical reaction from a country that has never experienced large scale terrorism on its shores before."

The Corinthian

Stuman134 wrote:

As far as Israel's "illegal occupation" lest us not forget Israel did not start that war, they just won it.

Are you suggesting that all nations should simply follow the base doctrine of “Might is Right”?

We support Israel so can Palestine fly planes over America and bomb us ?If Palestine gets its independence and declares war on the United States then by all means yes. They can legitimately bring the Palestine Air Force (after they form it of course ) and try to bomb our country. They had just better be ready to face the repurcussions of such an act.

Apparently the repercussions are to invade a country that played no part in the original bombing. So I’m sure they’ll survive.

Let me ask you something, does Ireland not recognize Israel as a country ? Is that all they are to the Irish, a terrorist state ?

Most Europeans realize that it’s not that simple. Israel has essentially carried out a program of ethnic cleansing in its own and the Palestinian Territories since its formation. The Palestinians have in turn become disenfranchised and oppressed. On the other hand, pretty much every Arab government is a basket case in comparison to Israel, which is the only functioning democracy in the region. And in both cases you have religiously fueled extremists that are convinced that God has given them the right to drive the other into the sea.

Oh where to start...How about the United Nations. This is the same United Nations that is facing a large rape scandal in the Congo right now right ? This is the same United Nations that was behind the oil for food scandal ? So be it. If you want to defer to their judgement, then by all means do, but it is a point we will never agree on no matter how many posts we put up.

The point is one of multilateralism versus unilateralism - either nation states can agree to abide within a legal and agreed framework or ‘Might is Right’. And it doesn’t matter if invading Iraq was the right thing to do or not but that it could be done and no one could stop the US. And so, while it may not happen in your lifetime, legitimizing such a principle may well come back to bite the US on the ass.

After all, no empire stands forever. Europeans knows that better than anyone.

Self Interest or National Security...What is the difference besides semantics ? Other than one word sounds nefarious, and the other one not so much.

National Security generally would imply defense, self interest is far less noble and is better equated to avarice.

Lemming

Stuman134 wrote:

Self Interest or National Security...What is the difference besides semantics ? Other than one word sounds nefarious, and the other one not so much.

You really don't know much then do you? One interpretation is actual defense against a threat. The other is self-centered rationale. You decide which is which.

The United States tries to do right by the world whenever it can...but sometimes we have to hurt people, sometimes we have to allow people to suffer, and sometimes we have to continue cordial dealings with those who bring harm to their own people.

Y'see, this is - I believe - the contention with so many people. The US says one thing and then does another. You stand up for human rights, and lambast others for non-adherence. Then when it suits, you simlpy "forget" about them. Democracy is championed until it suits. Hypocracy is the word I'm looking for.

That is good to know that you have read the patriot act.

Out of interest. Have you?

My next question is why do you care ? I live with the patriot act every day of my life, I'm still pretty happy with my freedom.

Why do I care?

1. Because if I ever want to go to the USA to visit relatives or conduct business or study I will be subjected to some extrordinarily racist policies upto and including "disappearing" me on US soil for no other reason than somebody doesn't like the colour of my shoes.... And there's no comeback. No appeals, No notification to next of kin. No nothing. I simlpy disappear and get my ass tortured for an indefinite period of time.

2. Because I happen to have believed in the dream that was America and I feel sick watching it get flushed down the toilet by a few idiots in power and the masses who see nothing wrong with letting them so long as "it doesn't affect me". What happens when it does affect you? It'll be too late to do anything.

3. I have friends & relatives living in the states and the thought that they can just be locked up without appeal, without outside notification and have all human rights denied is very very alarming.

Are these the policies of a democracy? They don't look like them to me.

Despite all our freedoms being taken away, we still have to commit a crime before we are convicted of one (errors not withstanding of course), not just look suspicious. So I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about me and my fellow Americans' freedoms...maybe you should take a look at your own.

Ha. That is one of the most naieve things I have ever read. Tell me ... ever heard the phrase

"if you're innocent, what do you have to fear?"

Tell me ... what good is it when the notion of innocent until proven guilty is removed? When you have no ability to appeal. When you aren't even being told of what you are to be charged with and for how lon gyou are going to be held?

I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said "Those who sacrifice freedom for the notion of security deserve neither security nor freedom". Or words to that effect.

Wise man.

The Corinthian

Stuman134 wrote:

Israeli Ethnic cleansing are you serious ? Before you continue this conversation with me, look up how Syria dealt with the Palestinians before Israel took over. Look up ethnic cleansing while you are at it too. If a killing machine like Israel practiced the policy of eradicating the Palestinians, do you really think there would be any Palestinians left after all these years ?

Ethnic cleansing does not imply killing an ethnic group, only that group’s eradication from a geographical location. I think the such first historically recorded ethnic cleansings were the Diaspora of the Jews by the Babylonians in 586 BC and again by the Romans is AD 135. And on this point, I think you’ll find that there are very few Palestinians left in the territory of Israel, or the Palestinian Territories for that matter.

As far as unilateralism goes I think you give the United States far too much territory around this globe. Poland is not part of the USA. Spain is not part of the USA. Japan is not part of the USA. The United Kingdom is not part of the USA. Yet all these countries have participated in our war on Iraq. Hardly Unilateral at all.

I think you’re missing the point of multilateralism. Just because you can convince a few nations to tag along does not suddenly make it a truly multilateral enterprise. The decision for invading Iraq was unilateral - the US was quite willing to do so even without any support from others.

Hairy Homer

Stuman134 wrote:

Since these posts are coming like three at a time for me. I'll address the Bill O'Rielly issue here too. How many people do you think watch Bill O'Rielly in this nation ? I checked his latest ratings and he is pulling in a solid 2.4 million viewer audience. A lot of people...almost 1% of the nations population. I don't think that 1% is quite enough to topple the government and install a hard line right wing regime in the white house...but they are getting there .

Well that's good to hear. And it doesn't surprise me. Some of my favourite people are American. But then they're not sitting in the White House right now. And I know they were not part of the majority (albeit wafer-thin majority) of Americans who supported Bush at the last election.

Heck, we know how this works here. Our history is full of hot-heads who attempt to force people's hands by playing the patriotic card, kicking off a fight and then demanding of people 'Well now the shooting's started, whose side are you on? Ours or theirs?'

In our case they're called terrorists. (Pearse, Connolly, Adams etc) At least at first. In America's case they're called 'Security Advisors'.

Stuman134 wrote:

As far as France and the U.S. being the same kind of terrorist state...First of all I don't think he ever purported that France was a terrorist state.

'France is helping world wide terrorism' Paragraph one here.

However I see my country called out by name, much more than I see my president. Show me the error in my thinking on this issue and I will glady apologize for that too.

There's what? 250 million of you? The law of averages dictates that a fair proportion of them will be assholes. It's just that a lot of them seem to infest the airwaves right now. Coulter, O'Reilly, Hannity......why do they all have Irish names?

dahamsta

Lemming wrote:

Yes I have actually. And most alarmed that such an act could get passed with little or no debate.

Pffff, debate. By their own admission, the vast majority of congressmen (or their staff) didn't even read it before waving it through.

I wonder what O'Reilly's margin is on those bumper stickers...

adam

Lemming

Stuman134 wrote:

Finally, I want to address the Patriot Act as I do not like the allegations that are thrown out there. First off I too have read the Patriot Act. I don't agree with everything that it entails, but it is certainly not what you have made it out to be. I don't think you have to worry about dissapearring in America and being tortured. Despite what you might have been told that does not go on here.

I'd agree with you except that people have been "disappeared" only for the truth to come out later as to what happened them. From inside the US, to US citizens. Indeed I seem to recall one such poor guy being sent "overseas" to one of the US' ME allies who weren't so pushed to follow notions of human rights.

Indeed one of the most high profile cases was an Intel engineer. A senior one at that. There was a lot of media attention over that, much to the NeoCon's annoyance.

Go ahead and call me naive, I really don't care. All I can say is come to America, visit your relatives, conduct your business, have all the fun you want. I am confident that no harm will come to you by the hand of the United States Government.

Except that they have demanded all credit card and medical records (among other information) from non-US airline passengers coming into or leaving the US. My c/c details will be on file for the next 80/90 years because of the PATRIOT act.

I *am* innocent and I fear these invasive procedures. I'm innocent, but what do I have to fear.

Coming from the same bunch of people who wouldn't allow an English businessman board a flight back to London with a toy actionman (GI Joe) figure for his son because the 2 inch long gun was a "replica" weapon and therefore a deadly weapon ....

If anyone came to me *wanting* such powers I wouldn't give it to them. People who *want* power shouldn't have it for the simple reason of their motives being incredibly suspect.

I know foreign national students at one of our universities who hold department of defense security clearances to allow them to conduct their research (not defense related research, they just need to use DoD computers to handle their computations).

Before or after 9/11 ?
It's *much* more difficult to get that clearance now. Pedantically so (even if it wasn't already before).

You can call me a mindless sheep if you like, and that I'm letting my own government pull the wool over my eyes. But ask yourself this. If I am so mindless and follow everything that my government tells me, do you think I would be the kind of person who would throw out a long winded rant in defense of my country to complete strangers.

In a word. Yes. Unfortunately so. I've seen the same from many other Americans on other boards.

Do you think I would choose a forum where I know I would be outnumbered at least 10 to 1.

Again, same as above. Yes. This isn't just you. I've encountered people who will argue the grass is really purple and will continue to do so until hell freezes over.

You and I will never agree upon what America really is to the world. But I do hope that someday you can believe that your dream of America isn't completely dead. We are still the land of the free.

Whilst I believe that you are sincere in your convictions, unfortunately your government may be talking the talk but it isn't walking the walk in that respect.

The Corinthian

Stuman134 wrote:

The desicion to invade Iraq wasn't made unilaterally and it wasn't made multilaterally, it was made bilaterally by the Brittish and the USA

There’s actually very little evidence that Britain had any real influence in the decision to invade other than to convince the US to attempt to get UN approval and most evidence points to the US wishing to invade long before the UK expressed a policy.

You and I Corinthian have a very different view of the UN. Can you honestly tell me that you believe Russia, France and Germany were not trying to look out for their own self-interests when they tried to block the United States request for action against Iraq.

Of course I’m not going to claim that Russia, France and Germany or the US were not trying to look out for their own self-interests, however that’s not the point of multilateral decision making. For better or worse, the UN is the only recognized multinational body for resolving such disputes - without it we are left with survival of the fittest under the justification that the ‘fittest’ claim to be the “good guys”.

Which brings me to the topic of self interest. I say that national defense and self-interest are one in the same. The interests of this nation and its defense are tied very closely together. Our national defense isn't just about protecting the borders of the United States from attack. Our national defense involves perserving our way of life, and perserving our country's affluence. I will freely admit it, greed does sometimes play an influence in our foreign policy affairs. As it does in all the industrialized nations. Our economy just happens to be on a larger scale than most others.

What you’re essentially saying there is that you’re looking after number one, but we should put our faith in that you won’t leave us hanging in the wind if it suits you.

Unfortunately that is precisely the price that the US paid in the ham-fisted diplomacy that surrounded the Iraq war - faith or trust. In short we don’t trust you any more. Even the British, Italians and Poles who supported (and continue to support) the war, don’t trust you any more. Now we’ll smile and do business and even like you on an individual basis, but now where mistrust was once the mantra of the loony-left, it has sadly become a mainstream. This is the tragedy that I don’t think Americans have realized.

Before I forget I want to clarify the palestinian population issue. As of 2003, there were 2.24 million palestinians living in territory claimed by Israel, and they have a 2.3% rate of population growth. If that is evidence of ethnic cleansing, then I must say the Israelis really suck at it.

For example, at the time of the formation of the state of Israel an estimated 700,000 Palestinians were expelled from what is now Israel. Amongst the tactics used were massacres to panic the local population into fleeing; one such example was the massacre at Deir Yassin where up to 240 Palestinians were killed by Jewish militias.

Of course, as I’ve already pointed out, the Palestinians have hardly exonerated themselves, but nonetheless you would have to admit that the Israelis have not exactly been all that nice either.

Sand

To get back to Stus original point - which devolved into a discussion of a wide variety of mini-issues - Id agree that the US is overall no better or worse than any other country, and no better or worse than any other hegemon throughout history. Certainly it has been beneficial to have the US around for Ireland and Europe in general, certainly more so than the USSR or China. It is unfortunate that it is probably the most dominant culture in the western world at least, and thus it has become the whipping boy for the sins of the western world.

All you can do is turn the other cheek. If you think the few threads here now have been bad then you should have checked this place out a few months ago.

Hairy Homer

Stuman134 wrote:

BTW We back the Republic of Ireland in matter of foreign policy too. That is what allies do.

Actually, I don't think we are an ally. We're a 'most friendly nation', but because we are not members of NATO and have no military treaty with the US, we are not strictly an ally.

A consequence of this is that the Irish Army has, I believe, no American made military hardware at all. Even during the peace dividend days at the end of the Cold War, we were not allowed purchase second-hand American hardware because of our lack of a military alliance with the US.

This contrasts starkly with the armoury of a certain, ahem, terrorist army on this island which has loads of M60 machine guns, Armalites etc etc etc

Bought the same way your average NRA member gets his artillery.

Stuman134 wrote:

Israeli Ethnic cleansing are you serious ? Before you continue this conversation with me, look up how Syria dealt with the Palestinians before Israel took over. Look up ethnic cleansing while you are at it too. If a killing machine like Israel practiced the policy of eradicating the Palestinians, do you really think there would be any Palestinians left after all these years ?

Well of course it wasn't called ethnic cleansing back in 1948, but objectively, that's pretty much what it boiled down to. The Israelis are just better at selling their story to the American market than the Arabs are.

And as for that ' the Israelis didn't start the war, they just won it' not strictly true either. The Jewish forces (the fighting in 48 actually started before the creation of Israel) were actively involved in a concerted campaign to clear the indigenous Arabs out of much of their area of Palestine. Especially from around the main roads linking Jerusalem with the coast. Look up Deir Yassin. Look up the date when it happened. Look up the dates on which the neighbouring Arab countries declared war on Israel. Which came first?

All this is historic water under the bridge now. But if you make untrue statements about the Nazi's treatment of the Jews in Germany today, you get locked up.

Hairy Homer

Stuman134 wrote:

ROFL...I never noticed that those were all Irish names. If it makes you feel any better, President Bush's opponent in the last election was John Kerry, an Irishman (by ancestory I mean of course) from Boston, MA.

Wah Uh. No he ain't. He's of Czech origin I believe and assumed the name Kerry (which I've never heard here as a surname, only a place name) on the most arbitrary grounds.

stuman134 wrote:

Btw if any of you know much about American political parties it might surprise you to know that I'm a registered democrat

No surprise at all. How do you feel when the likes of Coulter say YOU'RE all anti-American, traitors, fools, lickspittles, pantywaists etc etc etc?

stuman wrote:

P.S. To address this post directly...Don't buy a french car they suck!

In French the word for car, la voiture, is a feminine noun. And if you'd ever been sucked by a French female, you'd perhaps know that it's no bad thing...:-)

Uh-Oh. Skating on thin ice again.


PS Hurry Back Stuman. We'll miss you.

sceptre

Hairy Homer wrote:

Wah Uh. No he ain't. He's of Czech origin I believe and assumed the name Kerry (which I've never heard here as a surname, only a place name) on the most arbitrary grounds.

A pencil, a map and a blindfold back at the end of the 19th century AFAIK. Otto Kohn became Otto Kerry and his brother Fritz (later Fred) decided to take the same name. The Kohns were indeed from what is now the Czech republic.

SpabSFW

sovtek wrote:

I think it's an anti-O'rielly post rather than an anti-american one. I rarely see anything on here I would term anti-American.

That's because I haven't really gotten around to posting much here yet.

O'Reilly does bite, by the way. Whoever posted the bit on the vibrator, I hadn't seen that before and I about laughed my ass off.

SpabSFW

Stuman134 wrote:

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The desicion to invade Iraq wasn't made unilaterally and it wasn't made multilaterally, it was made bilaterally by the Brittish and the USA...based on intelligence that ended up being faulty. Though that is being brought into question again (By a U.N. Inspector not the U.S. Government). Personally, I think that the intelligence was wrong, that Husseins own people were lieing to him about Iraq's WMD capability. I don't believe it was a US and UK conspiracy to doctor evidence and have an excuse to invade Iraq...

blah blah blah

I say that national defense and self-interest are one in the same. The interests of this nation and its defense are tied very closely together. Our national defense isn't just about protecting the borders of the United States from attack. Our national defense involves perserving our way of life, and perserving our country's affluence. I will freely admit it, greed does sometimes play an influence in our foreign policy affairs. As it does in all the industrialized nations. Our economy just happens to be on a larger scale than most others.

I don't know what you are, but you're not a Democrat. One of the few places I agree with you is here:

Stuman134 wrote:

Not to mention American girls go crazy for Irish accents

SpabSFW

Hairy Homer wrote:

PS Hurry Back Stuman. We'll miss you.

He'll probably be back after he finishes his Freedom fries.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

sovtek

Stuman134 wrote:

We certainly did nothing...President Clinton authorizing U.S. troops to go into Haiti and restore Aristide to power in October of 1994 is nothing at all

That was after Bush' CIA helped topple him and their "rebels" were going around killing everyone that supported him (which was basically everyone) and then Clinton got tired of the boat people and sent in the military to restore Aristide....that's after he was forced to agree to our version of democracy....ie neo-liberal economic policies.
Then he (Clinton) almost immediately put sanctions on Haiti.

sovtek

Stuman134 wrote:

Personally, I think that the intelligence was wrong, that Husseins own people were lieing to him about Iraq's WMD capability. I don't believe it was a US and UK conspiracy to doctor evidence and have an excuse to invade Iraq.

No it was a Bush conspiracy to ignore any evidence that would thwart their goals of controlling Iraq.

You and I Corinthian have a very different view of the UN. Can you honestly tell me that you believe Russia, France and Germany were not trying to look out for their own self-interests when they tried to block the United States request for action against Iraq. Do you think that the lucrative oil contracts those countries had in place with Sadaam Hussein had nothing to do with them trying to block our actions (funny how those countrys' involvement with a brutal regime to serve their own "self-interests" never seems to be of world concern.

France and such were looking out for their self interest AND trying to stop a friend who was making an obvious mistake...one which would kill alot of people and last for years.
Do you think the Bush' regimes actions had nothing to do with strategic control of oil and the ME?
Do you think that Cheney and Halliburton had some designs as well...considering that they were both dealing with Saddam up until about 2000

Jimboo_Jones

I say that national defense and self-interest are one in the same. The interests of this nation and its defense are tied very closely together. Our national defense isn't just about protecting the borders of the United States from attack. Our national defense involves perserving our way of life, and perserving our country's affluence. I will freely admit it, greed does sometimes play an influence in our foreign policy affairs.

If you believe this, and I do find it an astonishing admital, then you can not moan when other countries do not support you in invading another country to satisfy your greed, as you put it.

And how do you feel that innocent people may have to suffer or die for your countries greed?

ambro25

I'm of Mediterranean origin, non-Arabic might I add, so not 'pasty white', if you get my drift. I also happen to be French. And I visited Iraq in the summer of '87, building prefab' hospitals & colleges for a French sub-contractor, who got the erecting contract from the US prefab' buildings manufacturer. That's for context - just to say that 'it' used to work, and maybe prompt some temporization about the whole Iraq thing.

Now, US readers/posters (stuman 134, is it?)

1) The above is stacking up to an awful lot for me to dare venture onto your shores for visiting my wife's cousin in new England (as I'm sure your security services already have all of this information in some database somewhere - and jumping at then from the screen in big red letters once my passport gets onto a plane manifest)

2) if I have nothing to fear of your current policies, tell me why, when I board a US-bound plane (as I have a few times since 9/11 but pre-Patriot), I am often the only person taken aside 2 or 3 times by muscle-types for a full search (incl. asked to remove shoes)? Is it because of my passport? Or (God forbid) my looks? Is it because I'm boarding the plane in a different country than my country of birth?

Not to mention the 'humiliation' for my (Brit) wife standing by me whilst I'm being very nearly strip-searched at the boarding gate when everybody else just walks by ogling (you're lucky, for French guy I'm not so proud to kick a fuss).

The few times I have visited America, I have enjoyed the place and the people tremendously. But what has been posted herein before, in respect of mistrust, is totally appropriate - at least in my (humble) case: I do not dislike America, or Americans (despite the Freedom Fries and all that - you're all just so puerile still ), but I have grown over the past few years to totally mistrust your government, their policies and the motives behind both. Which is a crying shame...

ambro25

Stuman134 wrote:

P.S. To Hairy Homer: I use to date a French Canadian girl, and yes was very happy with that aspect of our relationship so to speak (also trying to not cross any lines) but I'm still not going to buy a Fiat! Germany pissed us off to over our war in Iraq so buy a Volkswagon instead! (The new hybrid one is pretty cool).

Erm... FIAT's Italian, by the way, not French - and Italian cars are much worse than French ones, let it be said