Queer

Boston

What's people's opinion on this term. Certain LGB groups seem to have it as part of their name.

well I'll start with what it's "meant" to mean, in connection to LGB issues. As I understand its a term used to describe people who are not comfortable the terms such as straight gay or bi. Who would fell they fall in-between these terms and who would view them as polar extremes. These people feel uncomfortable with labels, so Ironically (and perhaps foolishly) a new label has been founded for them, that label being Queer. Perhaps in a fain attempt to retake the word from the bigoted minds of others, perhaps not. Basically people who would identify with the "gay" lifestyle without necessarily being gay/bi.

When this was first described to me some time ago the first thing that popped into my head that it was for hanger on'ers. People who love the thought of having a gay friend cause it makes them so cosmopolitan, so trendy and modern, so... will and grace. I really didn't take it to seriously as an orientation and I've yet to see someone make a valid argument that it is. but who really give a fuk if someone want to "pretend" to empathies with the "scene". Being gay or bi or whatever is nothing to hold over someone, its no goal to attain to, its nothing to be desired more or less over being straight, it just is. Allot of people get upset because Queer could include straight people, and in so doing somehow weakens the fight, whatever that may be.

Now to the point of the thread. While I personally couldn't give a fuk if someone wants to call themselves Queer and hang with all the gays, I do have a problem with people who seek to be linked to LGB issues and people purely for their own political or altruistic reasons while at the same time not identifying at all with what it means not to be straight in Ireland. This type of behaviour smacks of exploitation, and in the end weakens any campaign for equal right since it all becomes so politically aligned and a tool to get people elected or noticed. These people could give a funk about being gay, and every problem associated with being gay becomes a convient means for getting a dig in at the government. example of this would be Ivana bacik

on the other hand, allot of these arguments have been used to put down anything that deviated from the puritan views of homosexuality in the past and present. such as the lesbian feminists denounce transsexuals (MtF) as nothing but male infiltrators trying to get into a position of influence over women, or when the general gay community refuse to recognise Bi-sexuality as an orientation and label it merely a phase, something you tryout on the way to your true sexuality.

claire h

I wouldn't look at it at all like that. I see 'queer' as two things: an umbrella term for all 'non-straight' people, and as a less restrictive label than 'gay' or 'bi', a shorter version of something like 'well I've had relationships with the opposite sex in the past but at the moment I'm into the same sex but sometimes I'm into the opposite sex...' etc.

If a gay-friendly straight person started using the term to describe themselves, I would laugh in their face and tell them to cop on, to be honest.

Boston

Well your view would seem to be the view in the states, as an umbrella term for all 'non-straight' people. Here however its more ambiguous. I seen it used in connected for people who are transgender(which is odd since trangender is a catch all word as well). Who would view themselves as straight, just in the wrong body. While the only people I've seen use it would be people wishing to extract some credibility from it.

It's fairly odd when your reading a document, like I just was for the USI standing conference, and the term is used four or ive times, clearly with different meanings, not of which I would have though of.

Stark

I think genderqueer is the catch all term for transgendered and "queer". Basially queer means anyone who doesn't fit into society's norms and is used by some societies who have been overrun by the letter plague. We had a debate last Friday on whether or not to include transgendered people in the UCC LGB society. One of the speakers said that the use of the word Queer was a problem as by it's definition, everyone is queer since noone is 100% "normal". Thus it dilutes the concept of a "gay soc".

Boston

Yep I would agree with you stark. Except for the fact that some groups have LGBTQ, I mean whats that all about (talking about ucd here).

damien

To me anything that's at variance with what is blindly seen as the "norms" of sexuality can be classed as queer.

All these additional letters seem to be for people who want their own definition of their sexuality. I can well understand that they want the soc to recognize their sexuality but I don't think the growing number of extensions to a soc's acronym is the best method. I'm not sure what is the best method but I don't think doing something that some see as flawed is the best way to go just because there is no better solution.

I love the term Queer but I think adding it on to the LGBT in a soc is a bit much. Just call it the Q soc. Then I suppose straight people will need to be included...

solice

For me the word queer is a cultural thing. Queer movies, Queer books, Queer music (im told it exists...), events like pride festivals and lgb film festivals are queer events. I wouldnt refer to myself or any one person as "A" queer but i would call a group of homos queer.

Its like an umbrella term for all things that are considered different (for want of a better phrase)

Boston

Is there really a problem with straight people being included, I find the whole exclusiveness of the gay scene unsettling at times. whie the issues dealt with should be LGBT issues, wheres the problem with a straight person helping to work towards those aims. Are peopel afraid that these groups will change from being LGB support groups to being straight support groups? Were is the line. You allready have people fighting for womens rights from an LGB point of view, but surely that would effect all women< and would not be diluted by straight inclusion.

solice

Apart from the headache of having yet another letter appended to the end of the line "LGBTQS" im all for the breeders joining the ranks. In the words of bertie *shudder* its only through inclusion can we move on

qwertyphobia

I see queer as more to do with an attatuide or a set of values that set it apart from a gay assimalationist agenda.

As in queer meaning not just gay but gay and alternative in there thinking/lifestyle. Someone who isn't realy interested in "passing" or fitting in with society.

Which in some ways is more of the american useage of the word queer but it has also been used like that in europe in groups like outrage and lesbian avengers.


and I would agree with the previous poster I would take seriously any straight person who calls themselves queer

Annasopra

I do have a problem with people who seek to be linked to LGB issues and people purely for their own political or altruistic reasons while at the same time not identifying at all with what it means not to be straight in Ireland. This type of behaviour smacks of exploitation, and in the end weakens any campaign for equal right since it all becomes so politically aligned and a tool to get people elected or noticed. These people could give a funk about being gay, and every problem associated with being gay becomes a convient means for getting a dig in at the government. example of this would be Ivana bacik

Hang on a second there Ivana Bacik has done continues to do an awful lot for LGBT rights in this country. She is currently acting as Junior Counsel for Katherine Zappone and Anne-Louise Gilligan and she was involved in the drafting of the civil partnership bill 2004. If anyone is being hypocritcal I think it's you cause on the one hand you say things like above and then you say:

while the issues dealt with should be LGBT issues, wheres the problem with a straight person helping to work towards those aims

Stark

You can have inclusiveness for straights without adding S to the name. "As in the mission is to cater for lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgendered but you're welcome to join in if you want".

solice

"Straight friendly"

Talliesin

When "queer" first became reclaimed it was by more radical people within the gay rights movement who rejected the liberal argument of "gay people are no threat to mainstream society and can play a role in it" preferring "we are a threat to your mainstream society, and that's a good thing because mainstream society is not only homophobic, but sectarian, racist, misogynistic, [insert various other political labels] and could damn well do with being threatened". As such it done in awareness of the other meanings of the word, particularly "not normal or expected".

This meaning has since become watered down to the point where it's hard to pin it down to any sort of solid definition.

Boston

Johnnymcg wrote:

Hang on a second there Ivana Bacik has done continues to do an awful lot for LGBT rights in this country. She is currently acting as Junior Counsel for Katherine Zappone and Anne-Louise Gilligan and she was involved in the drafting of the civil partnership bill 2004. If anyone is being hypocritcal I think it's you cause on the one hand you say things like above and then you say:

I've read several of her articles in GCN and theres a definite trend, that trend beign to twist the issue into some tool to be used against whatever goverment is in power, always noting that labour would do it better if they where in power.

I think its a case of doing the right thing for the wrogn reasons. I didn't claim she hasn't helped, I've said she has her own agenda which imho is the use the LGB community as a platform. If you do the right things for the wrong reasons, it's just currupt.

damien

Article here about a debate on the meaning of Queer

Yoda

Is there a difference between "queer" and "quare"? See http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2342/is_3_33/ai_62828827

cat_rant

call me a prude but i dont like the word queer at all, ive heard it used as a negative label for gay people too many times to find any possitive value in the term at all anymore.

i do know that in wexford to call someone queer means that they are a bit odd or strange or a few shillings short... that doesnt offend me as much but all in all when it comes to words i hate its up there with putrid, c*nt, g**bag and many more i dont want to mention for fear of having to scrub my memory clean after finishing this post.

DAMN to late! off i go to find the scrubbing brush

cat

Yoda

G**bag?

Talliesin

catastrophy wrote:

ive heard it used as a negative label for gay people too many times

I could say the same for "gay".

TBH, I miss the fact that queer used to have a bit of an edge, if you said "I'm queer" there was an implied "and if you don't like it you can **** away off right now".

Now with "Queer Eye for a Straight Guy" it's become assimilated into the mainstream culture as a term for any man that would comprehend any grooming tips beyond "eyebrows - you should have two of these" and presumably by extension any woman who likes comfortable shoes, or doesn't mind much if they don't match her handbag.

Talliesin

Yoda wrote:

G**bag?

You need to add Brendan O'Carroll to the sources of linguistic data I'm afraid.

cat_rant

[QUOTE= Talsian
any man that would comprehend any grooming tips beyond "eyebrows - you should have two of these" and presumably by extension any woman who likes comfortable shoes, or doesn't mind much if they don't match her handbag.[/QUOTE]

ok now that ive stopped rolling around the floor laughing ! but what about the women with mono-brows ?

i dont mind my shoes not matching my hand bag as long as the colours dont clash and the ensamble as a whole is passsable but comfortable shoes are a prefrance with me mainly because im a titch yes 'titch' wee one etc and high heels usually looks silly on me

Talliesin

catastrophy wrote:

i dont mind my shoes not matching my hand bag as long as the colours dont clash and the ensamble as a whole is passsable but comfortable shoes are a prefrance with me mainly because im a titch yes 'titch' wee one etc and high heels usually looks silly on me

Maybe Sky will start doing "Straight Eye for a Queer Gal" and you could be televised having a bunch of straight women taking you shopping for het shoes.

cat_rant

Talliesin wrote:

Maybe Sky will start doing "Straight Eye for a Queer Gal" and you could be televised having a bunch of straight women taking you shopping for het shoes.

:eek: imho ive seen staight women who dress worse than i do! [alot of them tbh] besides my style of dress sence very recently was described as femine and eclectic.....{not a big fan of that word either but sure it suits in this occassion}
was a really nice comment to have some one make

and one or two girls in work always compliment me on some of my my more unusual bits and bobs that i wear....... holds hands up high in admition yes u have a pouch bought at warpcon for larping and i wear it in work

so much handier than lugging around a hand bag

Yoda

My gods, it's actually a verb. But apparently it's spelled "LARPing".

Boston

O dear god it's another gamer. I was at warpcon, and lepricon. purely for the purposes of drinking and sex mind you.

cat_rant

Boston wrote:

O dear god it's another gamer. I was at warpcon, and lepricon. purely for the purposes of drinking and sex mind you.

:eek:

no way! small world ehay? we'll you propably saw me pottering around at both cons so

cat_rant

Yoda wrote:

My gods, it's actually a verb. But apparently it's spelled "LARPing".

yes i really shouldn't have been so lazy and have bothered to capitalise the LARP part

sorry about that yoda

Talliesin

Yoda wrote:

My gods, it's actually a verb. But apparently it's spelled "LARPing".

You can verb any word.
Surely larping is common enough in everyone's vocabulary that it's no longer necessary to capitalise. Like laser.

Opinions expressed in this post may have the sole intention of winding up Yoda.

Boston

Is your name John,

Nevyn

Not yet Talliesin, but as the gamer virus spreads some day soon.
AS more and more supposed sub cultures become more mainstream
a cross over in terminology is to be expected.

Boston

Thaed wrote:

Not yet Talliesin, but as the gamer virus spreads some day soon.
AS more and more supposed sub cultures become more mainstream
a cross over in terminology is to be expected.

I didn't see you at any of the gamer conventions, would have said hello. fairly disappointed.

Nevyn

I was only at leprecon on the Sat but I was there
And at warpcon too, maybe we wil see you at dominicon.
Maybe you saw us or heard us (apparently we are loud) but didnt know it was us.

Back On Topic:

I think as Talliesin has said Queer was considered out side of the norm.
Some one who utterly rejected soceity and it's standards, where as gay
is a softer term and is used about some one who is still apart of main stream society. You never hear my brother/cousin/sister/aunt/work college/friend
is queer .

cat_rant

Thaed wrote:

my brother/cousin/sister/aunt/work college/friend
is queer .

very true and if some one does refer to them, using the word 'Queer', it's generally an insult or an expression of the fact that they may not approve of that element of the person.

{Off topic} Boston you'd be bound to spot Thead First im well lets just say 'less loud'.

Talliesin

Thaed wrote:

You never hear my brother/cousin/sister/aunt/work college/friend is queer .

I only sometimes admit that some of my friends aren't

Talliesin

Boston wrote:

Is your name John,

Eh, was that aimed at me?
My name is Jon.

damien

It's amazing how there is such a split in peoples' views on the word. I like using the word Queer and find it a damned sight better than LGBTQ. I refer to myself and my friends as Queer but I do note that many gay people despise the word. If someone called me a queer I really wouldn't feel insulted even when I knew it was with malicious intent. I think the word **** is a stronger word and would have more of a negative connotation to me.

Stark

Yeah I definitely think "****" is the worst word going despite some people's attempt to "reclaim" it. While I might normally ignore the juvenile attitudes of people around me, any time I here the word **** uttered my reaction is usually "shut your ****ing face". Which usually gets a surprised look if it's someone I'm not out to I remember there were complaints from new members of our lgbt soc because committee members were throwing the word about the place thinking they were cool and comfortable enough to use it.

cat_rant

Stark wrote:

Yeah I definitely think "****" is the worst word going despite some people's attempt to "reclaim" it. While I might normally ignore the juvenile attitudes of people around me, any time I here the word **** uttered my reaction is usually "shut your ****ing face". Which usually gets a surprised look if it's someone I'm not out to I remember there were complaints from new members of our lgbt soc because committee members were throwing the word about the place thinking they were cool and comfortable enough to use it.

in all honesty i have heard much much worse terms used than any of those mentioned here so far and its reassuring that the other ones ive heard aren't comonly used and also disturbing due to the fact that i KNOW them

i wouldnt lower myself in anyones eyes by posting them publicly but if curiosity takes over.....pm me

catastrophy

Talliesin

Stark wrote:

Yeah I definitely think "****" is the worst word going despite some people's attempt to "reclaim" it.

Yes. It can be reclaimed partially I think in cases such as the stand-up commedian who had a show titled "**** With a Gun" because it doesn't just say "okay, you're right, I'm a ****" it says "okay, you're right, I'm a ****. I'm also armed. Want to continute this conversation further?"

It's similar to the difference between NWA calling themselves "**** With Attitude" and just throwing the word "nigga" around all over the place. Really, I don't think young black people that are constantly referring to themselves and their friends with that word are doing their self-esteem any good, unless they've managed to reclaim it to the point where they wouldn't mind a white person using the same word to their face. (I don't mind a straight person calling me queer to my face, though it's usually pretty clear just what attitude they are coming from when they do).

That said if someone does call you a **** to your face, or worse, and you just say "yes" or "gosh, am I? That explains why I like cock". Then it does rather deflate their attack, but that's a matter of taking the wind out of one persons sails rather than reclaiming per se.

c3van5

well i know this is a little less offensive but a guy who lives in this little sleepy town with me (he is known as one of the "hard men") saw me getting frisky with my boyfriend in the pub one night (in retrospect not such a good idea with a population of 1,500) then came up to me last night to say "you know its really cool that you dont mind people thinking you are bent"
back handed compliment or just bloody idiot???

Boston

All depends on how he said it, should be obvious. Just because someone is a "hard man" doesn't mean they are homophobic, don't pre judge people.

c3van5

well it was said in a sort of drunken state...
and believe me he IS homophobic, no pre-judging here.
i think it was meant in a nice way but everything that boy does is threatening.

cat_rant

i would say just take it at face value tbh...he probably didnt know how to express it any better, or maybe didnt want to seem too tolerant, if he is such a hard man... tbh the fact that he put cool + bent in the same sentance negates the negative implication of the word...

just a thought...