Practical Kata Application?

OK Paul (mainly )quick question for you! This is gonna sound like Im stirring but Im not and its a genuine question.

In my eyes a kata is about as far removed as combat application as you can get it as it is has no timing, no feedback from a resisting opponent and no movement being adjusted with said opponent. Why then are you trying to seek application in a tul or kata. Its several degrees of seperation from being functional. There is a wealth of useable striking and grappling techniques out there. Surely going the kata route is taking the long way around.

Just wondering why look for application in static "dead" practice when you could refine your other training methods such as your sparring or pad work or conditioning?

Cheers,

Colum

Tim_Murphy

Seems to me that they simply have an interest in finding applications in forms, a pastime in itself. It's not the best way to train if you're just interested in performance but if that type of thing interests you then why not?

pma-ire

columok wrote:

OK Paul (mainly )quick question for you! This is gonna sound like Im stirring but Im not and its a genuine question.

Hee Hee, you rascal

columok wrote:

In my eyes a kata is about as far removed as combat application as you can get it as it is has no timing, no feedback from a resisting opponent and no movement being adjusted with said opponent.

And I would agree with you when you we take the forms in the way they have been "Traditionally" (is that a word ) presented to us. The knowledge and skill of the martial arts have been kept secret from the general population so that those in the upper ranks could maintain their position of authority. Even early writers described how secretive martial arts instructors were about keeping knowledge of these points from the general public.

The modern Budo forms of Aikido and Judo were taught not as a form of combat, but, for spiritual and physical development in the early years. Aikido and Judo came from similar backgrounds of JuJitsu. Judo, the older of the two styles, was systematized by Kano. Later Aikido was by Uyeshiba which was then known as aiki-jujutsu. It was given a name change in 1942 and has retained then name Aikido. Both men modified older systems of JuJitsu to create newer styles which "in the main [are] unrelated to real combat" (Drager 1973 p. 138). Kano was quite open in his acknowledgement that he removed the dangerous techniques from the syllabus of Judo. Judo relegated the practice of Kyusho (striking vital points of the body) to Kata so it was not necessary to strike these points on an opponent. The development of Kyusho-Jitsu lagged behind the more advanced systems of China and the Chinese-influenced fighting systems of Korea and Okinawa.

Like Kano developed Judo so that the dangerous techniques were removed allowing Judo to be taught in the school system of Japan. Funakoshi also taught Karate in such a way as to be appropriate for the school system. "Hoping to see karate included in the universal physical education taught in our public schools, I set about revising the kata so as to make them as simple as possible." (ibid. p.36) Funakoshi even said that Karate as taught in Japan is "not the same karate that was practised even as recently as ten years ago, and it is along way indeed from the karate that I learned when I was a child in Okinawa." (ibid p.36) It must be assumed that Funakoshi did not teach a deep understanding of kata to these beginning students. It was not uncommon at that time to teach only a small number the real secrets of a system. To illustrate this point Jiu-Jutsu regarded the strikes to vital points of the body as secret techniques and did not impart this knowledge to novices.

If you understand that kata was designed as a method for remembering various self-defence techniques it is easy to understand when Funakoshi (1975) states "if you merely move your hands and feet and jump up and down like a puppet, learning karate is not very different from learning to dance. You will never have reached the heart of the matter, you will have failed to grasp the quintessence of Karate-do." (p.104) From the perspective of modem day martial arts two of the key elements to grasping the essence of Karate-do is the understanding that kata contain viable self-defence techniques which centre around strikes and manipulation of vital points.

If you were an instructor with this knowledge of "deadly" techniques would you teach the real secrets to those who had recently conquered your nation? I think not. Okinawa was a conquered nation under Japanese rule. How likely is it that Funakoshi ever revealed the true secrets of Karate-do to his senior students? In the words of one of Funakoshi's early students Shigero Egami (1976), speaking of the "Yoi" or ready posture, he states "I know that there are changes in function among the various kata, but I must confess that I do not know the reason, nor why they change according to the kata." (p. 107) If such a senior student of Funakoshi does not fully understand kata how likely is it that American servicemen after W.W.I would be taught the real meaning of Karate.
(I'm quoting the above from text written by Rick Clark, which can be found on the PMA site or his book 75 downblocks)

I am a Traditional Martial Artist, I have a love of the art and style of TaeKwon-Do that I have been lucky to learn from some of the best people I have ever met (either in the MA world or other). It pained me to think that kata was crap. When we are presented with thoughtless applications for things like "Wedging block", "U-shaped block", "W-shaped block" etc (all can be also found Karate and TaeKwon-Do). Applying "pressure points" to my strikes and motions fit. I did'int have to change what I was doing and gave reason to the Tuls I was doing in class and for gradings, that most people around me were saying were "crap" and "a waist of class time", and these very same people would be coming to me at gradings to learn "self defence" techniques just before going onto the mat.

A 2nd dan TKD BB was my partner at a seminar with the groups master instructor the day before my black belt. Master Karl said we were going to do some "self defence" techniques on our own for him to see the standard. The other guys bent over to me and said "i know nottin 'bout self defence" (in a deasent Cork accent like ). Just before this he had been jumping around me doing step sparring and sparring, he was better than me a jumping kicks and the like. But still he came out with this comment.

I had a martial art shop with a pal in Cork, and all I bloody heard was TKD and Karate guys dissin' the other art, mad when one comes from the other nomatter what bollocks the koreans say. Then I would see fellas in one or the other style and looking for information on other arts (which is cool) but they were wanting to leave there base art because the instructors were'int doing enough sparring, and it was all kata and line work. I would show what different applications I knew at the time and it changed their view on the katas and the way they were training the moves in them.

columok wrote:

Its several degrees of seperation from being functional.

I love these catchphrases! Where do ye get them all?

columok wrote:

There is a wealth of useable striking and grappling techniques out there. Surely going the kata route is taking the long way around.

As I said in the history lesson and... I have always been open to learning from anyone nomatter what level they are at. Whatever I have learnt I have found a common reference to it in the Tuls. Which are a form of movements that I have learnt and I can follow, so I will remember the path easy. I know something might not go to plan so when I drill things and they don't go the way it should have then I don't stop and say f*ck ! and start again, I keep going and finish with whatever has been presented to me so that I won't end up with a bad habit of getting stuck in a real situation.

columok wrote:

Just wondering why look for application in static "dead" practice when you could refine your other training methods such as your sparring or pad work or conditioning?

It's not dead when it's broken down and drilled against a partner. And I agree that refining sparring or pad work or conditioning is very important to your fighting skills, we do that too.

Christ! I need to get back to work

Dyr

depends on what you mean by kata, if its karatey styley wavey handy in mid air while stepping up and down the room i never saw the point, unless its a conditioning excercise

but i have seen some partnered katas that was open and had a good deal of resistance etc. Then if you train with something like three feet of razor sharp steel i can definitely see the benefit of practising kata, you'd wanna make sure you can unsheath that yoke every time without loosing fingers

Colm_OReilly

If everything was watered down, were the people told they were learning something that was watered down? When would people be told what the forms "really" meant? How could one know a pressure point strike was lethal, or had a certain effect, if one couldn't test it? (only hear'say)

As I said in the history lesson and... I have always been open to learning from anyone nomatter what level they are at. Whatever I have learnt I have found a common reference to it in the Tuls. Which are a form of movements that I have learnt and I can follow, so I will remember the path easy. I know something might not go to plan so when I drill things and they don't go the way it should have then I don't stop and say f*ck ! and start again, I keep going and finish with whatever has been presented to me so that I won't end up with a bad habit of getting stuck in a real situation.

So you train them so you can recall the movements easier? But if someone goes against the movements you "keep going and finish with whatever has been presented to [you]"? Doesn't make sense to me.

It's not dead when it's broken down and drilled against a partner.

Then it's not a kata, it's a drill (or isolation stage)

but i have seen some partnered katas that was open and had a good deal of resistance etc

Were the movements of both the aggressor and defendor fixed?

Then if you train with something like three feet of razor sharp steel i can definitely see the benefit of practising kata, you'd wanna make sure you can unsheath that yoke every time without loosing fingers

Get some piping, cover with foam, and use like a sword. State rules like "If i'm hit in the arm/leg, I imagine that leg has been cut (off), head or torso, I'm dead." Find out what works.

To me, and this is stolen form Luis Gutierrez btw but it makes sense, ma's, and all combative systems revolve aroung 1 of three strategies:

Tactics based on reactions. A lot of military combative systems are like this.

Tactics based on formula: If he attacks like this, I do this, like that, I'll do that, etc. etc. This would be your typical TMA.

Tactics based on familiarity: Okay, I've fought in this way thousands of times before, here's what works for me. Play around with it and see if it's part of your game. Functional JKD stuff.

Most systems use all three to some degree, but in order to have any sort of ability the majority of your strategy should be based upon familiarity with a dynamic situation.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

pma-ire

Colm_OReilly wrote:

If everything was watered down, were the people told they were learning something that was watered down? When would people be told what the forms "really" meant? How could one know a pressure point strike was lethal, or had a certain effect, if one couldn't test it? (only hear'say)

No they never told and I outlined this in the first post. In most cases the westerners did not want to believe that this was the case (EGO) and discounted what they did not understand without trying it out. Or encountering a bad chancer.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

So you train them so you can recall the movements easier? But if someone goes against the movements you "keep going and finish with whatever has been presented to [you]"? Doesn't make sense to me.

Why not? We use the kata as a place to learn and we also have freestyle approach. What I meant here is that if someone is doing a application with a partner and get stuck, they should flow into whatever to get a result.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Then it's not a kata, it's a drill (or isolation stage)

Yes we drill the kata applications. The solo kata is just that.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Were the movements of both the aggressor and defendor fixed?

I don't know what was seen in this case. But a kata movement can have many, many applications. Rick Clark has written a book of 75 down blocks just on that movement.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Get some piping, cover with foam, and use like a sword. State rules like "If i'm hit in the arm/leg, I imagine that leg has been cut (off), head or torso, I'm dead." Find out what works.

Yes. Thats the way to train safe.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

To me, and this is stolen form Luis Gutierrez btw but it makes sense, ma's, and all combative systems revolve aroung 1 of three strategies:

Tactics based on reactions. A lot of military combative systems are like this.

Tactics based on formula: If he attacks like this, I do this, like that, I'll do that, etc. etc. This would be your typical TMA.

Tactics based on familiarity: Okay, I've fought in this way thousands of times before, here's what works for me. Play around with it and see if it's part of your game. Functional JKD stuff.

I don't know who this person is?

Japanese and Korean arts are very military, Okinawan styles are not. And this where this concept comes from. The military systems have abused the essence of the original concept and the Okinawans would not have wanted the Japs to know the reasoning behind the training methods of there fighting styles.

brenlong

Columok,

The important thing to remember about kata, forms, patterns, etc is that they are purely simulations.

There are many reasons why kata exist.
One of the key aspects is that they provide a method for studying the transition between one technique and the subsequent follow-on technique.
Repetition of these movements helps to train the practitioner's "muscle memory" and enhance the fluidity between techniques and how they are applied.

Kata are also an excellent medium for developing your deeper understanding of a particular technique. This understanding incorporates the physics of a technique, it's application, and of course, the philosophy behind it.

In weapons training, kata also provides the practitioner with a safe environment to practice and understand the fundamental techniques and applications of any given weapon.

Kata allow the practitioner to improve his or her control of a technique, be it speed or power. This practice serves further to enhance timing and distance control when the technique is applied to a combat situation.

Breath control is enhanced by repetition of correctly performed kata.

Perhaps the most important aspect of kata is the discipline of conditioning the mental attributes (mushin, zanshin, kime, aiki, kiai, etc) and approach behind a given technique.

So, to answer your question, kata is not far removed from combat application.
With good kata practice, comes good fundamental technique and understanding, which in turn serves good combat application.

Tim_Murphy

This practice serves further to enhance timing and distance control when the technique is applied to a combat situation.

Am...No it doesn't.

Have we not been down this road a millions times already on this board?

Mikel

http://www.tcd.ie/Clubs/Karate/aboutkata.html

One day while performing kata, I realized that one of my imaginary opponents caught me off guard. And I realized that if what we were dealing with was actual combat, I would have received a fatal blow. I became aware of the seriousness of this situation, and when I finished the kata, I felt that my back was wet and cold.

Sounds dangerous

There is an important difference between martial `art' and martial `sport,'

go on,

just as there is a difference between fighting imaginary opponents for real (as in kata) and a single opponent for sport (as in tournament sparring). No matter how hard the tournament fighters clash, the game is one of points; the winner is he who scored most often. Obviously, tournament sparring must be this way in order to be safe. With a bit of imagination, kata can be deadly.

"fighting imaginary opponents for real"?????

has anyone got John Kavanaghs email address??

"Dear John,
I would like to fight on ROT3
if possible, I would prefer an imaginary opponent.
They are more deadly you know.
Obviously, this fight should be an Imaginary Title Fight"

where do these guys come from??

Roper

This is what gives Kata/patterns trainers a bad name.

Looking for techniques? Whatever. Not my bag but more power to you.

Looking for imaginary invisible opponents? I can't even dignify that with an argument.

Dyr

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Get some piping, cover with foam, and use like a sword. State rules like "If i'm hit in the arm/leg, I imagine that leg has been cut (off), head or torso, I'm dead." Find out what works.

Colm

absolutely dont learn at first with sharp thingeys. The thing is sometimes training in a limited manner with "the real thing" can be just as valuable as going at it with safety checks in place.

example: we spar with foam covered sticks and hand head/ padding. I dont mind being hit in sparring, so theres not much fear. and it often shows with people ignoring hand shots etc.

However, doing a simple closed partner drill that involves firing one shot and then defending the same shot is far more "intense" and realistic to me, you know the rattan is going to bounce off your unprotected head if you mess up and getting your knuckles/head grazed ocassionaly puts you under even more pressure than sparring all out with safety gear. Both are useful but one has an element the other lacks. Though obviously sparring with real weapons would beat both lol

Not that im defending kata in its various formats, I spent to many years wasting time on em for that. IMO they're only useful if they are the first step of an integrated learning system, It seems most schools still tow the line that kata movements will miraculously manifest themselves under dire circumstances all of their own accord :mad:

pma-ire

The practice of applying kata with a partner while going hard into each other is better. The solo practice of kata can only help in remembering the kata, you could learn body and hip motion but it has to be put into practice with a live partner and increased levels of force.

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Am...No it doesn't.

Have we not been down this road a millions times already on this board?

On this note. I myself would not really see the point in trying to change anyones view on this subject. Especially on an internet board.

I was only answering a question put to me. And don't expect anyone to have a moment of revilation because of anything I have said on the net

pma-ire

WTF ? (and I don't mean "World TKD Federation" )

Did anyone read my first reply??

it's not dead when it's broken down and drilled against a partner.

Yes we drill the kata applications. The solo kata is just that.

Did anyone read this either??

I don't pretend that then I do a kata that just in that format I will be able to fight a guy that comes up to me for a fight for real? Thats F*ckin' Sooopid ! And I never said anything like that (just to put on record) !!

That comment from the Karate site looks mad, and looking at the full extract the author is practicing kata like a Chi or Zen excerise.

Many TMA's make the mistake of practicing Kumite/step sparring instead of looking at applying the kata movements themselves with a partner. These other forms only change what had been set out in the kata's for to be used by the MA'ist in partner practice and many times they are just reasons to insert extra techniques that are not found in the kata (ie. TKD throwing in higher kicks in step sparring that were not in the Kata) as originaly set out.

pearsquasher

If I may?....rant iminent.

I study a Japanese TMA, which is where Kata come from essentially. I know Chinese and other arts have forms and patterns but I don't know about them so i will stick to "Kata". I also don't know much about Judo and Karate Kata besides what's been posted by pma-ire and from general knowledge but i wouldn't comment on that unless i practiced them. So i'll stick to the Kata we learn in Bujinkan. I have read of Japanese TMA kata and they seem to be more or less similar in purpose to ours. I mean kata from pre-meiji samurai arts and not post meiji-sporting forms or "do" discipline which "seem" to have different goals, but i may be wrong and someone who does them should correct me after reeading my definition.

The art I do is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and we have 2 Kata (made up of many parts) that students must study continuously over their entire training career..... 40 years, maybe.. There are 100's of other Kata within the 9 schools that the Bujinkan is made of but they are not formally required for memory (at least in the early years of training), as Kata although we do study their principles all the time. (I think, as i've only been exposed to a handfull but recognised the ideas in them from stuff we've done over the years). Anyway...any of the kata sever the same purpose so one could technically disregard a lot of them as they share similar principles - funny how so many masters came to the same conclusions about movement. Something the MMA chaps would agree with i think.

Now, having studied this art in one form or another for over 10 years I reckon I'm in a position to say something about the Kata i study... believe me, it takes a while to get to grips with them and even now i'm just sort of getting them - for my level. In another 10 years i'll see new things in them i'm sure.

Kata are predefined movements, done with a partner in some cases and solo in others, that encapsulate the feeling or idea of certain principles of the art studied. They are often exagereated body movements that bear little resemblence to real fighting and nobody denies that. What they teach, that sparring, free response and scenario based drills cannot teach, as far as i can see, is core underlying priciples brought to the surface.. unclouded by the myriad of other things that come into play under pressure. We generally do kata relatively slowly but one can do them at super-slow tai-chi like speeds which is a great workout, or you can play with them at high-speeds but i personally don't see what benefit that would have as they are not designed that way. They are different to fullspeed drills - which we also do. They encapsulate a feeling or idea that can't be readily put into words and learned, rather than a this-leads-to-that-leads-to-this string of movements, which drill are - and which we do as well.

The kata we do are studied by 10's of 1000's of people all over the world and i've seen them done by hundreds of people hundred of different ways.... but always with the same goal of trying to understand mechanical movement, distance, timing, momentum, leverage, angling, speed, power, shielding, feigning, footwork etc etc... all the things that are necessary in real fighting

Think of a tennis player at Wimbledon. You watch her in a match and everything is fluid and natural... she's playing real tennis. But when practicing, she does drills that not only help her keep fit, to use her feet fast but to exageratte her back-hand and other strokes. What she does during the real match doesn't look like these training drills, of course not, but her real match has benefitted from her body going through slow, amplified movements. When you study Kata for a long time, because you trust your instructors judgement and the lineage of instructors stretching back to the wartorn periods when the Japanese TMA were formed, and then see and feel the priciples come out during free-response training, you realise how important they are.

Only recently have i myself gone to Japan and met a master teacher that does our 2 fundamental kata before every single class. When you see him move then, away from these exageratted movements, you see the benefits coming out. He corrected some stuff i've been doing for years, and i bet if i went to him again next year, the same kata would look slightly different to me - the priciples remaining the same... i'd simple get it more and he'd teach me slighly differently corresponding to my level of understanding. He's not holding back or watering stuff down but responding to his experienced intuition of what i'm ready to absorb.

Another usefull tool that Kata give us is body conditioning.... It's unnatural and time-consuming for us to go into low stances in real fighting... but doing it in kata builds up leg power so that when we move naturally in a fight, we have sustained and swift leg movement for getting us out of trouble.... Now, theres a really simple example of why kata's are important. The masters in Japan don't need to go so low any more because they have the leg power from decades of kata training to help them. They diodn't get the leg power in the gym or by running, but my moving the whole body in Kata. (As a matter of fact, the arts grandmaster got a lot of his leg power from playing soccer in college and from ball-room dancing too!). Soccer is another skill where they essentially do Kata training as well.... predetermined ball control drills that would never be done in a match.

Is it really hard to understand what Kata are? They're everywhere!

One more analogy: Before Michelangelo painted the Sistene chapel, surely he had to understand light/contrast, primary colours, tones and all that before being free to express himself? Kata encapsulate equivalent fundamental principles. Its so sensible, its incredible. Naturally, if you don't study a TMA and haven't practiced kata year in year out, its hard to see them as usefull.

So Kata are by no means "dead practices", in our art at least. They are alive and something i practice every day. The 100's of ideas they contain consistenly come out in all aspects of training that we do... weapons, sparring, free-response, scenario based, movement drills, strength training, flexibility training, ukemi, awareness, posture, conditioning etc etc. They are the oxygen and backbone of our movement.

As for the watering down of things. I haven't personally heard of it in our art. The feeling and principles are thought and experience and training gives the practicioner the sight to see what the true nature of the kata means. You can know that a certain move requires certain angles and timing but to really feel it intuitively and get the body to absorb the feeling of it takes a lifetime. The end result - "i know what the feeling is" isn't as important as the journey there "i'm practicing the kata all the time, getting it corrected by my seniors and seeing new things all the time". Katas are the living breathing embodiement, the primary colours, chords, mathematical formula whatever metaphor you want to use, of the (japanese) martial art you do.

Its also important to understand how kata came about. This is just my personal opinion but its not hard to conclude that katas evolved over 100's of years. They were born in the mind of people who experienced actual life/death combat and survived. In a culture where systemisation of information and experience was nutured you had these chaps pass on their experiences down as they opened schools or thought warriors. They examined how they fought on a certian day and recognised that a lot of key elements came up.. for example "the feeling of giving the guy about to kill me an opening". So they went about using their warrior toolbox to create a simple scenario that emphasised this feeling. Of course they were not going to recreate exactly the battlefield conditions that day, but merely draw a rough outline of the conditions and leave it to the students to practice this and get a feeling for it. Whether a particular student got it or not was up to him and he either lived or died with the feeling either in him or not.

I personally think its a rather sophisicated teaching method that goes hand in hand with all the other drills and excersises done in the dojo. Kata are a wonderfull and artfull snapshot of a "feeling" .. not an actual scenario. They contain information gleaned by people who had to survive battles and are a connection to those warriors. I am very aware that when i do a Kata i am threading in the footsteps of men who died preserving their spirit in war.

They're only as dead as the person doing it.

Hope that helped.

pma-ire

pearsquasher wrote:

They're only as dead as the person doing it.

Hope that helped.

Thank you for your returning comment pearsquasher

pearsquasher

I forgot to say... the idea of "competitve katas", of being formally judged on them and of them being standardised, is completely alien to the way we practice ours. Our kata are shown to you and corrected to infinity and are done differently by every teacher. They are only "wrong" if a teacher feels one of the dozens of principles involved is lacking. I would say a kata could never be wrong as such, just a varying degree of being inappropriate in the very instant that it is perfomed. For example, the teacher might say "Your front foot position won;t allow you to attack now" or "you can generate power better by moving like this".

I know Kendo, Iai and Karate styles have competitive Kata but i don't know anything about them but assume they came about from the kind of kata we do but their initial reason d'etre changed as they evolved into "ways" or sports.

Millionaire

I have a complete wild card theory of my own re Kata.

I recokon if u went back a few 100 years when martial arts chinese, japan etc etc were all about fighting for your life and stopping someone from killing you a robbing your wife and land. Back then martial arts were for the real world kill or be killed.

Now I think if you could go back and look at how people trained then it would be all about hitting vital points eye, throat, groin etc with lethal knife hands, claw hands, finer jobs etc. martial arts then might have looked like a modern combatives system.

Then as they say to hide the real techniqes from disloyal students, foreign invaders, they got watered down , and watered down and watered down some more.

Like enevn think of the Karate gi, or the kung Fu suit, that is now the peasants dressed back then, yet people (including me in the past until I got sick of it all) wear this garb to train in.

each to their own of course. we all do what we enjoy.

mattsylvester

Just quoting Tim because I like him

One interesting thing to note is the way that people who think about their patterns and those who do them as exercises perform them.

I was ADK2K, a martial arts event up in Edinburgh and we saw an international medal winnder perform a kata and then Bill Burgar perform the same Kata.

http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_karate/bb_singlekata.html

'Feck arf ', 'cant' and a number of other kiais were just one of the differences in the way Bill performed his kata. He was 'fighting' when he did it, the other was performing. It was an awesome, messy, performance which has remained with me ever since.

Bill has studied his kata as below (stolen from amazon)

"Book Description
This remarkable book gives the reader a unique insight into an amazing five-year study of a single kata (Gojushiho). It shows the depth that is waiting to be discovered by the close study of kata, covering an incredible range of subjects including:
• imagery
• the psychology of confrontation
• the common acts of physical violence
• vital points and how to exploit them
• the methodology for the break-down and understanding of kata
• the applications of the kata
• the principles of karate and how to apply them
• the applications (in detail) for each of the movements of Gojushiho
• the major variations of each application
• objective measurements regarding their practicality
• how to link the applications together

The author also explains how to undertake your own study using a single kata of your choice, and how to build a training regime based on the kata. If you have ever wondered what kata is really all about then this book is for you.

When karate was a secret art, practiced in the back yards of Okinawa by a few dedicated masters and their disciples, it was usual to train in a single kata for many years. A master of karate would know just one, two or possibly three kata. Through the deep study of those few kata the master karateka would posses a complete self-defence system, he would be well versed in the underlying principles of karate and he would have a memory aid which would map out his complete training regime. Over the last century the practice of a single kata has disappeared from karate practice. The deep understanding of a few kata has been replaced by the superficial understanding of many. This book shows you in great detail how to recover that understanding and how to put kata back at the heart of karate.

"Without question this book adds to the body of knowledge in the study of karate" - Rick Clark

"I am convinced that Five Years, One Kata may very well be the best book on kata I have ever read" - Patrick McCarthy

"No martial artist serious about gaining a true understanding of kata should miss this work" - Vince Morris

Synopsis
This remarkable book gives the reader a unique insight into an amazing five-year study of a single kata (Gojushiho). It shows the depth that is waiting to be discovered by the close study of kata, covering an incredible range of subjects including: imagery the psychology of confrontation the common acts of physical violence vital points and how to exploit them the methodology for the break-down and understanding of kata the applications of the kata the principles of karate and how to apply them the applications (in detail) for each of the movements of Gojushiho the major variations of each application objective measurements regarding their practicality how to link the applications together The author also explains how to undertake your own study using a single kata of your choice, and how to build a training regime based on the kata. If you have ever wondered what kata is really all about then this book is for you. When karate was a secret art, practiced in the back yards of Okinawa by a few dedicated masters and their disciples, it was usual to train in a single kata for many years. A master of karate would know just one, two or possibly three kata. Through the deep study of those few kata the master karateka would possess a complete self-defence system, he would be well versed in the underlying principles of karate and he would have a memory aid which would map out his complete training regime. Over the last century the practice of a single kata has disappeared from karate practice. The deep understanding of a few kata has been replaced by the superficial understanding of many. This book shows you in great detail how to recover that understanding and how to put kata back at the heart of karate. What leaders in the field have to say about the book: "Without question this book adds to the body of knowledge in the study of karate" - Rick Clark "

Now, this may or may not be for you but I can't emphasise enough the effect it had on me.

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Am...No it doesn't.

Have we not been down this road a millions times already on this board?

Mikel

Think of a tennis player at Wimbledon. You watch her in a match and everything is fluid and natural... she's playing real tennis. But when practicing, she does drills that not only help her keep fit, to use her feet fast but to exageratte her back-hand and other strokes.

No she doesn't, that would mess up her timing, she does movements that exactly replicate her strokes. She does not have a "practice forehand" and a "real forehand"

Another usefull tool that Kata give us is body conditioning

there are more efficient ways of conditioning.

Before Michelangelo painted the Sistene chapel, surely he had to understand light/contrast, primary colours, tones and all that before being free to express himself

The roof of the Sistene Chapel wasn't moving around in a random fashion.

Kata are predefined movements

Agreed.
So how do they help you in the face of a randomly moving, unpredictable opponent?

pma-ire

This conversation will never go anywhere. Because we all understand that we do or do-not agree, and finding more ways to disagree is a waste of time.

My final comment on this is something Rick said to us last november.

"The alphabet has all the letters used in the english language. But it does not contain any real functional words apart from "a". We have to break up the alphabet to make words to communicate with each other. But we have to practice saying these words to other people to make sure we are understood. Because if we don't then we might never get our point across in conversation.

Kata is the same thing"

Dyr

so who here still has to practice their alphabet??

Musashi

I no longer use letters zq or x so my alphabet is a stripped down combat version for the street and not one of your fancy flowery alphabets like the chinese use,I bet most of that is just flash stuff that doesn't even make words that are any good!

mattsylvester

pma-ire wrote:

This conversation will never go anywhere. Because we all understand that we do or do-not agree, and finding more ways to disagree is a waste of time.

I agree. Can't be arsed anymore Henceforth banning any such discussion on PMA boards.

pearsquasher

She does not have a "practice forehand" and a "real forehand"

.. funny, cos i've seen practice forehands against ball-machines. Anyway... other sports do drills that empasise and exagerate movement. This was my point.

there are more efficient ways of conditioning.

Never said there wasn't. This can be a good side-effect... and i'm talking about Bujinkan kata. We do plenty of other conditioning routines.

The roof of the Sistene Chapel wasn't moving around in a random fashion.

. Never said it did. I was talking about how artists generally need some basic principles to work off and kata have these.

So how do kata help you in the face of a randomly moving, unpredictable opponent?

If you read my post on kata again i think i make it clear how.

Also, the "randomness" of a fight and its unpredictability can be reduced if you learn about how humans move and react in encounters. One way of doing this, the way we train in Bujinkan, is my practicing kata, like i said. There are other ways of course.. some would say sparring for example, and i agree that it can be beneficial, but this is a thread on kata.

.. funny, cos i've seen practice forehands against ball-machines. Anyway... other sports do drills that empasise and exagerate movement. This was my point.

We're talking about combat sports or combat martial arts here. Any analogy to tennis is inherently fallacious as tennis does no have the same considerations as combat. Your opponent is not interfering with you hitting the ball.

Rugby tackling now...well thats another story. You get good at rugby tackling by rugby tackling. You get good at fighting by fighting. Not practising exagerrated movements.

Never said there wasn't. This can be a good side-effect... and i'm talking about Bujinkan kata. We do plenty of other conditioning routines.

Im not sure about your Bujinkan dojo but from what Ive seen conditioning is very poor. Maybe a rethink of conditioning practices would be wise. Also low stances are often incredibly bad for your joints and in now way improve your fighting ability. They more likely hinder it.

. Never said it did. I was talking about how artists generally need some basic principles to work off and kata have these.

Again this analogy is rubbish. When I paint or draw, my sketchbook or canvas doesnt move. It doesnt hit me back. It doesnt require me to brushstroke at precise moments. You cant compare fighting to painting. It just doesnt work. You cant compare fishing to fighting. You cant compare gardening, cookery, macromy or any other art to fighting. Compare fighting to fighting. Nothing else really works. Fighting involves you with YOUR agenda fighting a person who has a seperate agenda.

I'll use a horrible horrible analogy so apologies but Im gonna have to be blunt to get through to people! Im not trying to be crude but I think this analogy should make sense to most people. You cant get good at sex by masturbating and looking at pornography. It takes practice with a partner. You can work your physical attributes to be able to perform better but unless you are actually having sex with a person you arent gonna improve your skills in bed. You can read magazines and find out amazing new positions and techniques but unless you have regular practice with a person to try out and figure out these "new techniques" you arent gonna be good in bed. Simple. Again apologies if I sounded crude but I think the analogy carries better than any Ive heard before!

Fighting requires a fighter to develop in an environment involving timing, energy (resistance or feedback from your training partner) and movement. When any (or in the case of katas ALL!) of these are not included a fighter cant develop the SKILLS required to apply TECHNIQUE!

Roper

Oh dear, I mean, I get your point Colum and it's well made, but I was a world champion w@nker and I'm great in the sack

IMHO, and I've done some serious re-examination of my training techniques over the last year or so, an awful lot of martial artists have an AWFUL lot to learn from combat sports. I actually heard the infamous quote "we're better then boxers cos we use our legs too" (an attitude I thought was dead) only a couple of weeks ago.
As regards fighting, any good trainer will tell you that sparring is the bottom of the pyramid. Anything else is supplemental if fighting is your goal.

I heard your belt was disputed Roper!!!

I actually heard the infamous quote "we're better then boxers cos we use our legs too" (an attitude I thought was dead) only a couple of weeks ago.

LOL. Have heard some crackers.

Shaolin guys claiming that A) Boxers dont know how to punch properly b) because they train "reactions" theyd be able to deal with a thai kick much better than MMA or Muay Thai people would! WTF??????? C) There grandmaster (over here at the time) couldnt compete in the MMA competition we were running because "He doesnt know how to NOT kill people!"

Hilarious!

Funniest conversation:
A ninja trying to throw TwoKingMick at a cross training session.

Ninja: This guy is tough!
Me: Well he is a professional cagefighter!
(Mick and myself smile and the ninja looks like he's about to **** himself! )

pearsquasher

I wasn't comparing martial arts to painting or tennis. I was comparing aspects of painting and tennis to kata. The paint isn't fighting back? Can someone not use a simple analogy without it getting blown out of proportion and nit-picked? I'm not going to quote myself but suggest people re-read what i have said about kata, as we practice in the Bujinkan. I was endeavuring to illustrate to people who might not know what they're about, what they're about.


So one more time: (without any analogies)

Bujinkan Katas:

- are about principles of fighting, not fighting
- are done with partners and done solo
- explore isolated principles like distance, timing, openings, shielding, awareness, momentum to name a few
- a lifetimes study
- escapsulate a feeling or manner in which an opponent can be managed
- evolved over centuries in the hands of experienced warriors
- help condition the body
- don't replace drills

Pearsquasher,

I dont understand the following. Could you please explain!

- are about principles of fighting, not fighting

\
What's the difference?

- evolved over centuries in the hands of experienced warriors

The same could be said of anything in any martial art, combat sport or similar. Even equestrian pursuits have this kind of evolution inherent.

pearsquasher

I've listed several principles in a number of posts on kata already.

I was just reitterating the evolutionary aspect of kata by the way.

I've listed several principles in a number of posts on kata already.

Well as a matter of courtesy could you either copy n paste your response or give me a link as to the difference between training fighting and training fighting principles.

I was just reitterating the evolutionary aspect of kata by the way.

Since most TMA instructors (hopefully:))dont engage in Samurai or Ninja combat I think Kata are likely to have devolved in the last 100 years since they have become more separated from their original combat roots. Bujinkan is likely to be becoming less and less battlefield effective since its students and teachers arent working as full time ninja (not instructing but actually engaging in the original duties/work of a ninja).

To consistently cite the battlefield effectiveness of Bujinkan or Budo Tai Jutsu or Ninjitsu is surely fallacious therefore!!!

pearsquasher

Here's a link to Bujinkan South Africa's definition of what we do which summarises it nicely i think, and mentions kata:

http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H4.html


As for principles of fighting versus fighting..i'll give you one example. Distance. In a fight, the opponent need to reach you by one means or another. If you control the space that this reach extends into, its fair to say that you control whther he can hit or grab you - this applys to weapons too. Its a univeral priciple that applied to vikings raids, zulu standoffs and modern day iraq as well as samurai and ninja stuff and your one-on-one cage events. I think everyone will agree on this .. its obvious.

Now, Kata can help you isolate the feeling of controlling this space and therefore controlling distance without extraneous information getting in the way. You'll probably tell me that sparring and competiton leads "fighters" to similar conclusions but remember, i never said they didn't... i'm giving you an example of what kata can help with. You probably have lots of drills that teach you similar things and thats great... i'm talking about kata here - specifically bujinkan kata which are of the type undiluted or warped by modern sport forms. Kata practiced the way they are meant to be, reveal a lot about distance. The more you practice the more what is revealed sinks into muscle memory and becomes intuitive.

As for principles of fighting versus fighting..i'll give you one example. Distance. In a fight, the opponent need to reach you by one means or another. If you control the space that this reach extends into, its fair to say that you control whther he can hit or grab you - this applys to weapons too. Its a univeral priciple that applied to vikings raids, zulu standoffs and modern day iraq as well as samurai and ninja stuff and your one-on-one cage events. I think everyone will agree on this .. its obvious.

I understand the concept of distancing as applied to fighting. What I dont get is how this can be isolated in training and more specifically isolated in solo or partner kata practice! We develop our distancing skills by sparring and fighting. Please explain.

Now, Kata can help you isolate the feeling of controlling this space and therefore controlling distance without extraneous information getting in the way.

In the "real deal" or in sparring or competition you cant forget all this "extraneous information". The best way of controlling a space and having a level head is to be fairly familiar with fighting. To get this familiarity you have to spar or fight against FULL resistance. A kata is static and cant teach you this!

You'll probably tell me that sparring and competiton leads "fighters" to similar conclusions but remember, i never said they didn't... i'm giving you an example of what kata can help with. You probably have lots of drills that teach you similar things and thats great... i'm talking about kata here - specifically bujinkan kata which are of the type undiluted or warped by modern sport forms.

What about the dilution of bujinkan since it was practiced in ACTUAL COMBAT. Surely the fact that the instructors arent fighting every day and even your grandmaster isnt fighting and killing everyday mean that anything they teach dilutes the art. Hasnt it lost touch with its original background of being "battlefield effective"?

Also what do you mean by being diluted or warped by modern sport forms? Do you mean acrobatic competition kata or do you mean combat sports?

Kata practiced the way they are meant to be, reveal a lot about distance. The more you practice the more what is revealed sinks into muscle memory and becomes intuitive.

I dont get this. Would you be confident that you or a fellow bujinkan student could step onto matts or into a ring and keep distance away from a boxer, thai boxer, mma fighter or similar of less years experience than you?

pearsquasher

I've described what our kata are about sufficiently by now.

They seem so far removed from anything people have experienced here that i'll just leave it for now.

As for

Would you be confident that you or a fellow bujinkan student could step onto matts or into a ring and keep distance away from a boxer, thai boxer, mma fighter or similar of less years experience than you?

No... thats their area of expertise, not mine or the Bujinkan's. Some Bujinkan would manage fine, some would not. Then thats not what we train for.

I've described what our kata are about sufficiently by now.

You havent answered my questions. Why not?

I experience Bujinkan kata just last Tuesday so Im not ignorant to your cause.

No... thats their area of expertise, not mine or the Bujinkan's. Some Bujinkan would manage fine, some would not. Then thats not what we train for.

Distancing is distancing!

You said!

Its a univeral priciple that applied to vikings raids, zulu standoffs and modern day iraq as well as samurai and ninja stuff and your one-on-one cage events. I think everyone will agree on this .. its obvious.

Also Please answer the following question. You seem to be avoiding it.

What about the dilution of bujinkan since it was practiced in ACTUAL COMBAT. Surely the fact that the instructors arent fighting every day and even your grandmaster isnt fighting and killing everyday mean that anything they teach dilutes the art. Hasnt it lost touch with its original background of being "battlefield effective"?

Thanks,

Colum

pearsquasher

One class's experience of Bujinkan kata isn't much considering they are routines that require indepth study, as i've said.

Now.. to your questions:

Hasnt it (bujinkan) lost touch with its original background of being "battlefield effective"?

Not really. I've met several actual-combat special forces types in the Bujinkan who testify to its battlefield effectiveness. The grandmaster encourages them to share their knowledge. We train in the sprit of battlefield effectiveness every class. You'd probaly say you spar in the sprit of street combat every class too... that great.

Also what do you mean by being diluted or warped by modern sport forms? Do you mean acrobatic competition kata or do you mean combat sports?

I mean both. Having said that, i have not experienced kata from either camp but just from descriptions here and in books/videos i've seen and from doing 2 years of kung fu and karate patterns, they seem to be very different to what we do. I may be wrong though, but i'm still standing by my own definiton of bujinkan kata the way i've been thought them. If a sports/performance guy comes here and says "well actually, i can see our kata do what bujinkan kata does from your definition" then thats cool and i'd be glad to hear it.

And i would argue that YOU are not fighting every day..sparring maybe, but not fighting. Its sort of impractical isn't it, considering you may be killed? The Bujinkan grandmaster and masters and teachers DO train every day.. train for real fighting, not sparring.

Lemming

pearsquasher wrote:

I wasn't comparing martial arts to painting or tennis. I was comparing aspects of painting and tennis to kata. The paint isn't fighting back? Can someone not use a simple analogy without it getting blown out of proportion and nit-picked?

In defense of pearsquasher, I'm going to jump in here too. What he is trying to say is quite correct imo. I will use an analogy of a field in which I am *very* well versed.

Look at a classical musician. It's not fighting. But in order to be competent and at the very *least* produce a consistent and not-painful sound you require a lot of basic understanding in fundamentals. For music - scales & arpeggios. For MA, the human body's mechanics. If I don't know my scales (and again this is something that classical musicians will practice all their lives) I am greatly hindered in my ability to play in a competent fashion, and my intonation will be, to put it mildly, very suspect. My ability to read music is also severely hindered. I will be able to play. I just wont be very good in all likelihood.

Now, I will add the caveat that my analogy is somewhat far stricter than what pearsquasher is trying to convey since classical music tends to be very ... precise. It's either right. Or it isn't. MA isn't so final in regards execution. But the concept of what I'm trying to impart should be quite, quite clear.

Colm_OReilly

Please read Technique VS Skill in Martial Arts again.

Colm

pma-ire

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Please read Technique VS Skill in Martial Arts again.

Colm

Why?

It's just one guys spin on his point of view. We could all pull such things out of our pockets. But it won't prove anything.

One class's experience of Bujinkan kata isn't much considering they are routines that require indepth study, as i've said.

It seemed to me from my "limited experience" to be Aikido mixed with some traditional jiu jitsu.

Not really. I've met several actual-combat special forces types in the Bujinkan who testify to its battlefield effectiveness. The grandmaster encourages them to share their knowledge. We train in the sprit of battlefield effectiveness every class. You'd probaly say you spar in the sprit of street combat every class too... that great.

Do you fight or even spar on a regular basis?
Does your teacher fight or even spar on a regular basis?

We dont spar in the spirit of street combat. EVER!

And i would argue that YOU are not fighting every day..sparring maybe, but not fighting. Its sort of impractical isn't it, considering you may be killed? The Bujinkan grandmaster and masters and teachers DO train every day.. train for real fighting, not sparring.

The principles are the same. Street punching and boxing. Street grappling and wrestling/judo. I dont testify to the battlefield effectiveness of MMA. I know it works in MMA competition. Ive fought in MMA competition, been punched, kicked, kneed, choked, joint locked, thrown! Ive never been in "battle"! Have you? What are you basing YOUR opinions on?

Lemming,

Your analogy doesnt carry.

As someone who has also trained in the piano (i assume correct me if Im wrong) for many years I have to say that it bears no analogous relationship to combat. The keys dont move around, struggle randomly or hit back. I dont think this carries!

Obviously you need to know your fundamentals to be able to perform. You need to know the goal of the exercise. I dont see how kata can help!

Kev

Can someone who has only practised against a ball machine win a tennis match ?
Can someone who has only practised scales play a concert ?

Lemming

columok wrote:

Lemming,

Your analogy doesnt carry.

As someone who has also trained in the piano (i assume correct me if Im wrong) for many years I have to say that it bears no analogous relationship to combat. The keys dont move around, struggle randomly or hit back. I dont think this carries!

Obviously you need to know your fundamentals to be able to perform. You need to know the goal of the exercise. I dont see how kata can help!

I was about to post a reply. But you know what ... why bother. If that's the best response you can come up, then sure. Yes. Whatever you say Columok.

Lemming,

Youve done this before when your opinions have been challenged. Id appreciate if youd learn to argue please.

I took issue to the validity of the classical music analogy that you put forward. I gave my reasons. Rather than explain yourself further or counter my arguments youve insulted my response.

If the concept of the degrees of seperation with regards to skill development of playing a musical instrument (played solo) compared partaking in a fight (with a fully resisting opponent) are beyond your understanding Id be happy to explain further!

Thanks,

Colum

Roper

Lads,
Can we get back to Colum's sex analogy? I did some solo training last night and it was fantastic............

Regardless of intractible views/ useless analogies the purpose of this board is debate and discussion, I don't see where brushing off challenging arguments can get us. It doesn't mean we have to agree.

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Obviously you need to know your fundamentals to be able to perform. You need to know the goal of the exercise.

You answered your question before you asked it.

columok wrote:

I dont see how kata can help!

Static and dynamic are diametrically opposed.

Fighting=dynamic

Kata=static

You get fundamentals for a static situation by practicing static.

You get fundamentals for a dynamic situation by practising dynamic.

I dont get how static practice can help dynamic sparring/fighting!

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Static and dynamic are diametrically opposed.

Fighting=dynamic

Kata=static

You get fundamentals for a static situation by practicing static.

You get fundamentals for a dynamic situation by practising dynamic.

I dont get how static practice can help dynamic sparring/fighting!

You are talking about Kata from your perception of what they are and are not. My view them is different to yours.

From your point of view in a kata a punch is only a punch and a block is only a block.

(I'm not talking about freestyle here, as blocking does not have to be learnt as it is a natural thing to move your hands to cover yourself when attacked)

For me each and every move in a kata is an attack to the body of an attacker. Including the blocks, which are not really blocks at all.

For you each move in a kata can only have one form of application (if they have any) to one form of attack.

For me each move can have many applications towards many different attacks.

Even thinking like this. Do I fight only using the format layed out in the kata? No. I only use the movements as a memory map to teach the students how and where to use different fighting techniques.

Rick Clark's book 75 Downblocks is a case in point, where he takes the basic motion of the downblock and applies it 75 different ways. Giving the person a sinple map of the motion and drilling the different ways that this can be done. Creates muscle memory not just for one application but for as many as you can think of.

The aim of all this is to drill constantly with as many partners as possible using different levels of resistance. Expanding on this drill with whatever is seen to be open when presented to you. Flowing into another path when the original one is blocked. Aiming for the seamless flow of movement between paths leading to the ceasation of violence towards your person.

We use all use basic drills to teach people how to flow within motion. A kata is just an older form of solo practice. A bit like boxers shadow sparring really.

In all these threads I think some might feel that I am against any other form of understanding of kata practice. I am not, and enjoy the other aspects of those views also. The question was put to me and I answered it

Sin e

pearsquasher

I dont see how kata can help!

I dont get how static practice can help dynamic sparring/fighting!

Well, I'm beginning to see after 10 years doing kata the way they are supposed to be done - and i'd hardly call them "static" either. Maybe kata some people have expereinced has been static? Bujinkan kata, thought properly, are not.

Seems my trust in the experience of qualified teachers has paid off. The true genious of these routines has become apparent to me after training hard. I say genious but they'r e actually blindingly simple too. Just as the simple chords on a musical scale leads to infinite varieties of musical expression, from sax solo's to concertios.. Bujinkan kata lead to infinite ways of dealing with infinite martial puzzles, from simple punching to complex dynamic stratigical warcraft.

How come every single teacher I've trained with in this art has seen if i'm practicing my kata or not? How come i am at a stage where i can tell intuitively if somebody has practiced their's? It becomes obvious when you see their sparring, techniques, skill-sets and drills in action. Its, because i'm "fairly" familiar with them and i'll spend the next 10 years becoming even more so. I'm just begining to understand. There are probably 1 or 2 out of 100's of ideas in the kata that i have actually ingrained into my unconciousness so that i'm actually no longer concious of them and can throw them away. (like when you tie your shoelaces... you don't think of it. Oh wait, let me guess, "shoelaces don't punch back").

I've got a lot to learn but am seeing how the kata, amongst other things can get me there. If the kata were static they would tie you up and box you in. How can something that leads to infinite variations be called static? They're as static as the night sky... seemingly a fixed motionless entity in the sky at night but in reality a complex, living universe of everything. Hows that for an analogy!

So Bujinkan looks like aikido mixed with ju-jutsu? Cool.. i've seen it look like football mixed with ballet, like katate mixed with swimming. Whats fighting supposed to look like to you?

I dont testify to the battlefield effectiveness of MMA. I know it works in MMA competition. Ive fought in MMA competition, been punched, kicked, kneed, choked, joint locked, thrown! Ive never been in "battle"! Have you? What are you basing YOUR opinions on?

Nope.. never been in battle. I base my opinions on people who have who train in the Bujinkan. I base my opinion on the kata and technqiues that have been proven to work in battles. Hey, it might not work for me if i get in a fight - a highly unlikely event - but that'd be my fault, not Bujinkans.

I've been in really intense and chaotic mock-battles on a film set and found my bujinkan training really helped with distance, timing etc. A LOT of martial artists were on the set and a LOT of people got injured. Of course it wasn't real but it gave me great insight into various aspects of that kind of riot-like mob-driven adrenilin-filled situation and my kata training really allowed me to respond intuitively to "random" axe swings, shields breaking, mud, mulitiple opponents, fatigue, injury and all that jazz. I actually saw glimpse of where kata came from in that battle. I imagined the skilled warrior, surviving his 5th week long excersise in horror, formulate a kata that could somehow encapsulate feelings he had on the battlefield. I had the pleasure of teaming up with several re-enactors who had a lot of street experience - and competions too, i might add. We were all able to equally appreciate that yes, it was a film, but that we could fight together in the spirit of life/death. We would rehearse some moves and when the dirctor said "action" after 1 minute all our rehearsing would go out the window and we rely on on-the-fly dynamic tactics... throwing helmets, feigning attacks etc etc. A lot of Bujinkan kata seemed to flow out of me that time. I found myself responding to this attack like that kata, throwing the person like this kata etc. It was remarkable and made me appreciate the power of kata more than ever.

Do you fight or even spar on a regular basis?

Real fights - no? Sparring - occasionly, but more like a free-response excersise than trading blows or competing. I did it a lot for years... but feel i gain more out of other methods of training these days.

Does your teacher fight or even spar on a regular basis?

Fight - not as far as i'm aware. Some of my teachers have a LOT of competion fighting under their belt... they've thrown that away now. Spar? Not that i see.... but, its not what we're about.

There you go.

Lemming

columok wrote:

Lemming,

Youve done this before when your opinions have been challenged. Id appreciate if youd learn to argue please.

Part of arguing is knowing when it's a futile and pointless fight since the person you're facing off against doesn't want to listen and just repeats the same old argument over, and over, and over, and over, and over and .. etc.

I took issue to the validity of the classical music analogy that you put forward. I gave my reasons. Rather than explain yourself further or counter my arguments youve insulted my response.

Au contraire, it is *you* who have been insulting Columok. Instead of arguing, you just did the tiring regurgitation of "tireless rebutter", doing the proverbial fingers in the ear and screaming "lalalalalala I'm not listening" routine to *anyone* who has offered an analogy. If the best that you can do is say "oh, keys don't hit back, or paint doesn't move, etc" then you're just being anally pedantic and aren't really interested in hearing anyone else's point of view that might challenge your own. I believe the quote was

Youve done this before when your opinions have been challenged. Id appreciate if youd learn to argue please.

I'd look in the mirror before screaming J'accuse next time Columok.

Analogies are just that. Analogies. They are *meant* to be abstract. They are tools to convey concepts not implementations. The musical analogy was correct. You're just being too short-focused to see the difference.

Scales are static. Arpeggios are static. Works of music are dynamic, living beasts of expression and emotion. From what are they constructed?

Lemming,

If your going to use an analogy at least make sure it fits.

The point of this thread, and the question I asked, related to kata inbuing the practioner with the SKILL required to fight.

SKILL (in the context of sport and in this case martial arts) is having the ability to use a technique. Do develop skill for use in a combat situation you need to train your TECHNIQUES against a fully resisting opponent. If I want to be good at running around a football defence I have to play a lot of football matches rather than running around cones or compliant defenders.

Music or art is unsuitable, in analogy terms, for talking about skill development in fighting. It just doenst carry. Your opponent in a fight is metaphorically speaking not a blank canvas on whom techniques can be performed. They fight back. When discussing skill development therefore its not exactly reasonable to something done with an inanimate object to something done with a fully resisting opponent. How can you not grasp this!

Au contraire, it is *you* who have been insulting Columok. Instead of arguing, you just did the tiring regurgitation of "tireless rebutter", doing the proverbial fingers in the ear and screaming "lalalalalala I'm not listening" routine to *anyone* who has offered an analogy.

OR you used crap analogies. More apt would have been an actual contact sport where there is another person involved!

If the best that you can do is say "oh, keys don't hit back, or paint doesn't move, etc" then you're just being anally pedantic and aren't really interested in hearing anyone else's point of view that might challenge your own. I believe the quote was

Anally pedantic? WOW! I would just rather here from people capable of using suitable analogies and capable of objectively arguing. Sorry if that offends you.

Scales are static. Arpeggios are static. Works of music are dynamic, living beasts of expression and emotion. From what are they constructed?

The act of playing music is static just like scales and arpeggios. It is in the appreciation that the music becomes a "living beast of expression and emotion".

Pearsquasher,

Well, I'm beginning to see after 10 years doing kata the way they are supposed to be done - and i'd hardly call them "static" either. Maybe kata some people have expereinced has been static? Bujinkan kata, thought properly, are not.

Where do you learn to deal with REAL resistance?

Seems my trust in the experience of qualified teachers has paid off. The true genious of these routines has become apparent to me after training hard. I say genious but they'r e actually blindingly simple too.

How do you know your trust has paid off

How come every single teacher I've trained with in this art has seen if i'm practicing my kata or not? How come i am at a stage where i can tell intuitively if somebody has practiced their's? It becomes obvious when you see their sparring, techniques, skill-sets and drills in action. Its, because i'm "fairly" familiar with them and i'll spend the next 10 years becoming even more so. I'm just begining to understand. There are probably 1 or 2 out of 100's of ideas in the kata that i have actually ingrained into my unconciousness so that i'm actually no longer concious of them and can throw them away. (like when you tie your shoelaces... you don't think of it. Oh wait, let me guess, "shoelaces don't punch back").

Im sure your getting great a katas! I cant see how your developing the skills needed to fight!

So Bujinkan looks like aikido mixed with ju-jutsu? Cool.. i've seen it look like football mixed with ballet, like katate mixed with swimming. Whats fighting supposed to look like to you?

Fighting is messy and looks like bad MMA!

Nope.. never been in battle. I base my opinions on people who have who train in the Bujinkan. I base my opinion on the kata and technqiues that have been proven to work in battles. Hey, it might not work for me if i get in a fight - a highly unlikely event - but that'd be my fault, not Bujinkans.

It would be Bujinkans fault for not training you properly surely?

I've been in really intense and chaotic mock-battles on a film set and found my bujinkan training really helped with distance, timing etc. A LOT of martial artists were on the set and a LOT of people got injured. Of course it wasn't real but it gave me great insight into various aspects of that kind of riot-like mob-driven adrenilin-filled situation and my kata training really allowed me to respond intuitively to "random" axe swings, shields breaking, mud, mulitiple opponents, fatigue, injury and all that jazz. I actually saw glimpse of where kata came from in that battle. I imagined the skilled warrior, surviving his 5th week long excersise in horror, formulate a kata that could somehow encapsulate feelings he had on the battlefield. I had the pleasure of teaming up with several re-enactors who had a lot of street experience - and competions too, i might add. We were all able to equally appreciate that yes, it was a film, but that we could fight together in the spirit of life/death. We would rehearse some moves and when the dirctor said "action" after 1 minute all our rehearsing would go out the window and we rely on on-the-fly dynamic tactics... throwing helmets, feigning attacks etc etc. A lot of Bujinkan kata seemed to flow out of me that time. I found myself responding to this attack like that kata, throwing the person like this kata etc. It was remarkable and made me appreciate the power of kata more than ever.

Lost for words!

Real fights - no? Sparring - occasionly, but more like a free-response excersise than trading blows or competing. I did it a lot for years... but feel i gain more out of other methods of training these days.

If your ever interested in testing your Bujinkan in a limited rules sparring environment...

Fight - not as far as i'm aware. Some of my teachers have a LOT of competion fighting under their belt... they've thrown that away now. Spar? Not that i see.... but, its not what we're about.

How can you be about battlefield effectiveness and not spar? That seems crazy!