SF/IRA go too far?

Sand

I heard about the stabbing of man in Belfast 2 weeks ago, and gave it no mind as the police said it wasnt carried out by a terrorist group with some objective in mind. I then heard on the Last Word today an interview with Susan Breen, a reporter and Albert McGuiness (sp?) of the SDLP where the sinister nature of the murder became apparent.

What appears to have happend is that the local SF/IRA unit, led by an extremely senior IRA commander ( according to both Breen and McGuiness the IRA men were also senior SF political activists and regularly visit SF HQ as part of their "day job", and still do even after the murder) cut Brendan Devines throat in a bar, and then pursued them onto the street where they beat, stabbed and stamped McCartney to death and continued their assault on Devine. They left them to die on the street, and then returned to the pub where they launched a full scale coverup.

The coverup is still apparently continuing. McCartneys family have been amazingly brave - though I can think of one SF/IRA supporter who would laugh at the idea that they were brave - and have accused the SF/IRA unit of the murder. Devine who survived, barely, has said he will testify - the SF/IRA units identities are already know, one is in Dublin. Both families *were* solidly Sinn Fein voters. The community has rallied to them, and against SF/IRA. According to the last word interview, SF/IRA has refused to co-operate with the police investigation ( like Omagh ) and instead has advised people to go to a solicitor or a priest with evidence regarding the murder! This despite the stated wish of the families that people co-operate with the police.

Apparently the families have put up posters looking for statements, but were told by a local community center ( unnamed in the interview) that they wouldnt be allowed to put them up as they contained the PNSI insignia and thus was offensive! Even Republicans are sickened by the SF/IRA attitude in this case of clear criminality - no one after all is accusing the SF/IRA high command of directing the murder, but rather of covering for the killers and there is no indication of Devine or McCartney being drug dealers or whatever, though apparently the SF/IRA propaganda machine is already at work - and theres half a chance that this could be very damaging to SF/IRAs electoral campaign, especially with the SDLP campaigning on a "nationalism that favours law and order" approach.

[Prediction]A poster on an internet had this to say "Clearly this is a dirty trick by the families who fear our electoral mandate"! Another said " Who cares! They got my pavements fixed so Im happy and thats all that matters" A third claimed "Clearly this was wrong and regrettable, but I dont want to get stuck in the politics of condemnation - lets try and work past this to a point where these non-crimes no longer happen" Another said " Crinimals in SF/IRA? Thats unpossible!" [/Prediction]

mycroft

I hate agreeing with Sands (sorry mate) but he's right here;

The family have been very brave the culprits are known to everyone and the 70 odd witnesses in the pub all saw "nothing" the family even stuck the "please help with the investigation" leaflet through one of the suspects letterboxs.

Businesses in the area have stuck up PSNI can you help with the investigation and the mothers of the teenagers who rioted when the PSNI came in a "heavy handed approach (on an aside it's one of those self fufilling prophencys, the PSNI head into Sandy Row to arrest a noted republican for questioning in a murder, no officer in his right mind is going in there without backup, and they know the situation is going to be tense, so they go in strong otherwise they'll be ripped to pieces, and the IRA condemn the PSNI, but I doubt they kneecaped any teenager who engaged in anti social behaviour) anyway the mothers gave out to their kids and anti IRA graffiti has appeared.

I think we're seeing the "core supporters" of the IRA who needed them when being oppressed by Unionist mobs and the B specials and now ten years after the cease fire they've grown weary to the IRAs bullying and abuse.

All I can say it's about f*cking time.

Sand

I hate agreeing with Sands (sorry mate) but he's right here;

Theres enough people around here to share your pain that you could set up your own support group.

Cork

Sand wrote:

Another said " Crinimals in SF/IRA? Thats unpossible!" [/Prediction]

Yes - The comment that the members of an illegal organisation were not criminal was classic. It would be funny - if it was not tragic.

But even with the punishment beatings, bank raid and the recent murder of Robert McCartney - some in our society will still maintain that the IRA are not a criminal organisation.

"The five-man IRA gang ran back into the bar and ordered everyone to say nothing. They then slipped out towards the Markets, where republican supporters helped them wash blood from their clothing and footwear. Even the bar was 'forensically' cleaned while McCartney and Devine lay bleeding outside. No one rang an ambulance.

Only a passing police patrol spotted the two men on the ground, driving past them at first because they thought they were drunk. When they realised what had happened, the officers rushed McCartney and Devine to hospital.

McCartney clung to life for another eight hours. His five sisters - Gemma, Claire, Paula, Donna and Catherine - watched him die the following day shortly after 8am. Gemma had to telephone her mother, Catherine, on holiday in Spain. Now the sisters are determined to bring his killers to justice - even if that means standing up to the IRA.
.

At the bottom of Mountpottinger Road, one of the main routes through the Short Strand, fresh graffiti has appeared criticising recent attempts by the British and Irish governments to link the IRA to the Northern Bank robbery. Gerry Adams, who has insisted that there are no criminals inside the IRA, echoed this sentiment.

Paula McCartney is not impressed by these denials: 'I would like to ask him [Adams] if what happened to Robert wasn't a crime.'
QUOTE]


Link

This murder was a disgrace & hope that those who carried it out are cought and that all of us have the moral fibre to call this murder a crime.

lomb

Cork wrote:

Yes - The comment that the members of an illegal organisation were not criminal was classic. It would be funny - if it was not tragic.

But even with the punishment beatings, bank raid and the recent murder of Robert McCartney - some in our society will still maintain that the IRA are not a criminal organisation.

At the bottom of Mountpottinger Road, one of the main routes through the Short Strand, fresh graffiti has appeared criticising recent attempts by the British and Irish governments to link the IRA to the Northern Bank robbery. Gerry Adams, who has insisted that there are no criminals inside the IRA, echoed this sentiment.

Paula McCartney is not impressed by these denials: 'I would like to ask him [Adams] if what happened to Robert wasn't a crime.'
QUOTE]


Link

This murder was a disgrace & hope that those who carried it out are cought and that all of us have the moral fibre to call this murder a crime.

the ira and sf will be finished in a few years most probablly. hell even their core supporters are deserting them. which normal person would support 'punishment beatings' murders, drug dealing, smuggling, bank jobs, kidnappings. these guys are seriously nuts and even their most die hard supporters are seeing the light.

monument

Clearly, it was wrong and regrettable. And I also condemn it, it was inexcusable.

Sand wrote:

and instead has advised people to go to a solicitor or a priest with evidence regarding the murder!

First off, we are talking about people who do not trust the police. Secondly going to a solicitor or a priest could be safer then going to the police directly.

Sand wrote:

Apparently the families have put up posters looking for statements, but were told by a local community center ( unnamed in the interview) that they wouldnt be allowed to put them up as they contained the PNSI insignia and thus was offensive!

I read an interview with the family on Sunday, and they said no such thing.

The local community centre just wanted the RUC/PSNI logo blocked out – quite different.

Sand wrote:

SDLP

As for the SDLP, the majority of the party apparently wants to join FF, and agree with FF’s core values more then their own party’s apparent leftist image. Oh, I see FF the Republican Party.

Sand wrote:

Crinimals in SF/IRA? Thats unpossible!

SHOCKER: Criminals in the IRA (an illegal group)! What a scoop!

lomb wrote:

the ira and sf will be finished in a few years most probablly. hell even their core supporters are deserting them. which normal person would support 'punishment beatings' murders, drug dealing, smuggling, bank jobs, kidnappings. these guys are seriously nuts and even their most die hard supporters are seeing the light.

"and sf" pardon?

The IRA had plans to disband and it's still on the cards...
IRA may go back on road to disbandment

mycroft

Sand wrote:

Theres enough people around here to share your pain that you could set up your own support group.

Still think Brendan is a fat unfunny right wing c*nt with no real opinion and poor research and the kind of argument that couldn't survive outside a vaccum.

lomb

mycroft wrote:

Still think Brendan is a fat unfunny right wing c*nt with no real opinion and poor research and the kind of argument that couldn't survive outside a vaccum.

what and a guy wasnt murdered, another severely injured, witnessed by a large number of people who arent talking, in IRA turf, a crime scene that wasnt cleaned......................
if u dont trust him http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/default.stm

cdebru

things like this just prove to me that the IRA has to be disbanded before it descends further into criminality

and that the policing issue has to be sorted out in the vacuum that exists now it allows thugs like these to be a law unto themselves.

lomb

cdebru wrote:

things like this just prove to me that the IRA has to be disbanded before it descends further into criminality

and that the policing issue has to be sorted out in the vacuum that exists now it allows thugs like these to be a law unto themselves.

i actually to some extent feel sorry as a human for these ira animals. they are a product of an upbringing made by shocking treatment at the hands of security services and unfairness. no one can deny the injustices inflicted on the catholic community there. but times have to move on. these thugs will never change whether u disband them or not. it will take a full generation for things in the north to change as these animals go to their fate same as the rest of us. anyone who cant see that is a fool.

mike65

Its empowering to see ppl standing up to killers, I guess they belive they have little to loose right now which in itself gives one strength. Its seems to have emboldened the local population, maybe they finally see an oppotunity to get the provos off thier collective backs. The PIRA may have served them a purpose in the past but not now.

from the Blanket

Despite what has been said of the IRA in recent weeks, or what motivates its leadership, it is still very difficult to conceive of the body of its membership as being motivated by criminal self-aggrandisement. Some of those named as being suspects in the Northern Bank robbery would have ability in abundance to plan and execute the raid but they would be clueless when it comes to thinking like criminals. The minds they are equipped with lack criminal intent.

Yet it is indisputable that a strain of vicious criminality does lurk within the IRA, a parasite feeding off the legitimacy that association with the IRA provides. Its one attitude towards the community it feeds upon is that of the emperor Caligula, 'Oderint dum Metuant': 'let them hate as long as they fear.'

news just in

Mike.

cdebru

lomb wrote:

i actually to some extent feel sorry as a human for these ira animals. they are a product of an upbringing made by shocking treatment at the hands of security services and unfairness. no one can deny the injustices inflicted on the catholic community there. but times have to move on. these thugs will never change whether u disband them or not. it will take a full generation for things in the north to change as these animals go to their fate same as the rest of us. anyone who cant see that is a fool.

I disagree the situation at the moment is that there is a policing vacuum
when this issue is sorted out when people from these areas can join the police force and it becomes completely acceptable to everyside
then it can remove these people from society it seems the local community has demonstrated its disgust at these people however at the moment thats all they feel they can do

when the IRA is disbanded that cover that some of these thugs are using will be gone

lomb

cdebru wrote:

when the IRA is disbanded that cover that some of these thugs are using will be gone

true, true. the police seem powerless there. ive never seen anything like it in the civilised world. why arent the northern bank robbers behind bars. why is the key suspect murderer here sharing the same streets of dublin as the rest of us. wonders will never cease...........

pete

Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams has urged anyone who knew about Robert McCartney's killing two weeks ago in Belfast to pass that information on.

The West Belfast MP also launched a scathing attack on those who carried out the stabbing, and stressed that his party supported the victim's family in their search for justice.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0214/mccartneyr.html

hawkmoon269

news just in

More weasel words from weasel Adams. Note he is very careful not to call for people to pass the information onto the police force.

pete

Gerry Kelly wrote:

“I want to make it absolutely clear that no one involved acted as a republican or on behalf of republicans.

“I repudiate this brutal killing in the strongest terms possible.”

He added: “No one has any right, as has been claimed, to prevent anyone from helping the McCartney family.

“People with reservations about assisting the PSNI should give any information they might have either to the family, a solicitor or any other authoritative or reputable person or body.”

looks like someone's being hung out to dry if you ask me

FTA69

This was a disgusting and foul murder and whoever did it deserves the strongest possible punishment. If IRA members were involved they have brought shame to Republicanism as a whole and I truly hope the culprits are brought to justice in one form or another. Unrepresentative thuggery has no place within the Republican Movement and it is up to those in the Movement to ensure the weeding out of undesirable elements before any incident like this occurs again.

mycroft

FTA69 wrote:

and it is up to those in the Movement to ensure the weeding out of undesirable elements before any incident like this occurs again.

Nice condemn the murder but at the same time it's the IRA's job to sort the problem out in their own fair and just manner and not the courts and the law, well that just confirms the commitment to the IRA to the rule of law divisible between nationalist and unionist community.

FTA69

The statement you quoted was not refferring to the recent murder but was a broad statement made to illustrate the fact that if the IRA want to retain the respect of their communities they need to expel thugs of every hue. The establishment in the Six Counties is also not very preoccupied with the "law" but rather what suits them best at a particular time.

mycroft

FTA69 wrote:

The statement you quoted was not refferring to the recent murder but was a broad statement made to illustrate the fact that if the IRA want to retain the respect of their communities they need to expel thugs of every hue. The establishment in the Six Counties is also not very preoccupied with the "law" but rather what suits them best at a particular time.

Uh huh nice to see you back after you mole like denial over your claims that the branch were intimidating members like yourself in free west waterford.

Nice btw trying to turn this on the lawessness of the govt of the 6 counties, the thing is people like the victims of the monaghan and dublin bombings get to take their case to the european court of human rights the RA don't have an ombudsman and all the tut tutting and "down with this sort of thing" that Mary Mc, Adams, and Mc Guinness, doesn't help the fact that they are the political wing of a terrorist organisation which slit one throat and stab another man, and then had their followers forensicaly wipe the pub for evidence. God yes heres an organisation commited to the peace process.

FTA69

IRA members may have been involved in that murder, but that is not to mean that the IRA as an organisation is responsible. Every organisation has its thugs, that is an inevitable fact. Individual IRA members during the War of Independence sometimes robbed property/cattle for themselves and there have been stories of them murdering people, is the organisation as a whole to be tainted? I believe not. Are they at fault for not reporting the incidents to the forces of "law and order" of the day? Again I believe not. Organisations cannot be responsible for the unrepresentative and unsanctioned actions of a few rogue members involved in a drunken brawl that elevated into a mindless killing.

Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers, they have made it clear that people with evidence should go to people they deem to be the best choice. We cannot support the police, or encourage the supporting of the police for reasons I have outlined many times before in this board. That does not equate with us protecting or approving of this murder.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers, they have made it clear that people with evidence should go to people they deem to be the best choice. We cannot support the police, or encourage the supporting of the police for reasons I have outlined many times before in this board. That does not equate with us protecting or approving of this murder.

Of course you cannot support the police, here is an opportunity for the police and the criminal justice system to prove to the nationalist community that they can deal with criminality,and, apply the full rigour of the law, in a fair and evenhanded fashion, but republicanism cannot let that happen, as the genie would be out of the bottle.

jbkenn

Villain

This was a terrible act of crime that cannot go unpunished, Gerry Adams has called on anyone that knows anything to come forward and I believe they should do so quickly.

The people who carried out this crime have no place in soceity, and I believe some of the people involved may have worked for SF during elections, SF should ban these people from having any connection with the party.

swiss

Absolutely disgusting.

This event, to my mind, absolutely epitomises everything that I find objectionable about the republican movement. It appears extremely evident to me that the IRA are a front for thugs such as the men responsible for this murder, as has long been my assertion.

SF/IRA men were responsible for this killing.
SF/IRA men were responsible for the subsequent cover up.

Gerry Adams statement, instead of being helpful, is a glaring hypocrisy. Not only does he carefully refrain from advising people to give information to the policing service, he states that they should contact an "authoritative or reputable person or body". Given that Sinn Féin/IRA view themselves as a law onto themselves, when viewed through the skewed perspective of provisional republicanism, this means reporting information to Sinn Féin and Sinn Féin alone.

Furthurmore, since these men are in continued involvement with Sinn Féin, the people who potentially have most information about these killers are the Sinn Féin party. To whom are they giving information regarding these men? Themselves? This blatant double standard is almost as objectionable to me as the actions of the thugs themselves.

One thing I do find heartening is the fact that this incident has made traditional supporters of SF/IRA see them as the parasites that they are within their midst, as opposed to their supposed "defenders".

Villain

swiss wrote:

Gerry Adams statement, instead of being helpful, is a glaring hypocrisy. Not only does he carefully refrain from advising people to give information to the policing service, he states that they should contact an "authoritative or reputable person or body". Given that Sinn Féin/IRA view themselves as a law onto themselves, when viewed through the skewed perspective of provisional republicanism, this means reporting information to Sinn Féin and Sinn Féin alone.

That is not true, read Gerry Kellys statement.

swiss

You are correct, it was Gerry Kelly who made the specific statements I alluded to above. Gerry Adams endorsed the overall sentiment.

Nevertheless, my original point stands. His comment about repudiating the killing would be risible were not the circumstances so tragic. I believe he has information about the killers. Not only are they members of his party, they are members of the IRA. If he is so serious about passing on information to "relevant authorities", why does he not do so instead of telling other people to do it? Why is he so ambiguous about who to contact and why?

I can only conclude that although he states that nobody involved in this killing acted as a republican he is prepared to protect them as a republican. At the very least he will not pass on information to the PSNI, and I am quite certain that no other member of Sinn Féin will either.

Naturally, if I hear that these men have been arrested, and Sinn Féin has provided the information necessary to bring about these arrests, then I will be pleasantly surprised. I won't hold my breath.

ishmael whale

FTA69 wrote:

.. Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers....

From what we can gather this murder happened two weeks ago, and it looks like it only now in the face of both local community pressure and media interest that SF is taking any interest. What if the circumstances were much the same, but the victim was not a republican supporter ? Would SF feel any need to take an interest if they didn't see their support base at risk?

FTA69

To state that the IRA as a whole is simply a parasitical body of thugs underlines your ignorance about the IRA swiss. Yes of course there are undesirable elements within the IRA, there always has been and unfortunately there always will be. That however, should not undermine the good work put in by Republicans in the aforementioned areas at interface points etc.

Members of the 26 County Army in Eritrea were involved in a scandal involving underage African prostitutes, is the whole force to be blamed for the actions of a few?

Regards the passing of information, you are misrepresenting Sinn Féin's position when you assert that information should be given to us alone. First of all, the party is not responsible for, or authoritive of any IRA members or their individual actions. Second of all, Alex Maskey, Joe O'Donnell, Gerry Adams and Gerry Kelly all said that people should go to the best body or individual of their choice, that might include the police or that might not.

Would SF feel any need to take an interest if they didn't see their support base at risk?

Sinn Féin was not responsible for this murder and they condemned it utterly. They believe that the murderers should be brought to justice and have encouraged people to give information to whoever they choose. Unfortunately because Sinn Féin have been wrongly blamed for this killing they have been forced to react strongly to it.

Stabshauptmann

This IMO is the main problem with the IRA (I know others have bigger problems with them). Lads come along get used to living above the law and become thugs (I disagree that the IRA has always been a meeting place for thugs).
Even when operating under orders "Civil Administration" bugs the hell out of me. As Ive said before I dont belive in absolutes and so the notion of a juctice system with no form of appeal (since all sentences are permanent and irreversable) is sickening.

These dip-shíts should not be given protection by the ira if they acted free lance, it would be good pr for adams and sf and the IRA. I dont know who these guys are though, if they are senior members like its reported then its probably unlikely the IRA will be keen to discipline them or afraid to loose them.

Villain

swiss wrote:

If he is so serious about passing on information to "relevant authorities", why does he not do so instead of telling other people to do it? Why is he so ambiguous about who to contact and why?

I can only conclude that although he states that nobody involved in this killing acted as a republican he is prepared to protect them as a republican. At the very least he will not pass on information to the PSNI, and I am quite certain that no other member of Sinn Féin will either.

Naturally, if I hear that these men have been arrested, and Sinn Féin has provided the information necessary to bring about these arrests, then I will be pleasantly surprised. I won't hold my breath.

I would like to think that if Gerry Adams had information that could lead to an arrest he would make it available to the PSNI, but I'm realistic enough to know that might not happen. I do however feel that the statements from Adams and Kelly will give poeple the security to come forward with information.

jman0

1. SF not advising people to communicate to the PSNI is entirely consistant with their views on policing. So they can only advise people to communicate with parties that people may have confidence in, solicitors, clergy, whatever.
They are not advising against communicating with the police, rather they are being consitant with their party position on policing.

2. The allegation that persons within the pub conspired to wipe evidence is suggestive that persons within the pub are supportive of the accused, rather than the victim.

3. I've never heard of the IRA commiting death by knife, why not use a gun which would surely be the more conventional weapon of choice... maybe this is because those weapons have already been decommissioned by the IRA .
Which goes to show that even in the absence of firearms, extra-judicial killing can and probably will occur.

Villain

jman0 wrote:

3. I've never heard of the IRA commiting death by knife, why not use a gun which would surely be the more conventional weapon of choice... maybe this is because those weapons have already been decommissioned by the IRA .
Which goes to show that even in the absence of firearms, extra-judicial killing can and probably will occur.

That is one of the worst posts I have ever seen on boards, I ask you to please edit or delete it :mad:

jman0

irish1 wrote:

That is one of the worst posts I have ever seen on boards, I ask you to please edit or delete it :mad:

I'll edit it if you can show me what board rules in violates.

ishmael whale

FTA69 wrote:

..... Unfortunately because Sinn Féin have been wrongly blamed for this killing they have been forced to react strongly to it.

This does not address my point at all. To refresh, SF only seem to be taking an interest two weeks after the murder because of local community pressure and media interest. This suggests that if the victim was not a republican supporter SF would have no real interest in the guilty being brought to justice.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that SF are responsible for this murder, or that there is any political aspect to it, so I really don’t understand why you are addressing a point that no-one has made.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

IRA members may have been involved in that murder, but that is not to mean that the IRA as an organisation is responsible. Every organisation has its thugs, that is an inevitable fact.

An organisation whose existence is predicated on the use of violence for political aims is inevitably going to have more than its share of thugs - yet another reason why the IRA should not exist.

FTA69 wrote:

Organisations cannot be responsible for the unrepresentative and unsanctioned actions of a few rogue members involved in a drunken brawl that elevated into a mindless killing.

They could, however, do the right thing by helping bring those rogues to justice.

FTA69 wrote:

Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers, they have made it clear that people with evidence should go to people they deem to be the best choice.

What are those people supposed to do with that information? If they are law-abiding citizens, they will pass it on to the police - so why not encourage the people in question to go directly to the police themselves?

FTA69 wrote:

We cannot support the police, or encourage the supporting of the police for reasons I have outlined many times before in this board. That does not equate with us protecting or approving of this murder.

It would be more honest to say that you "will not" rather than "cannot" support the police. This is a question of choice on the part of Sinn Féin: they are choosing to prioritise a political stance over justice for the family of yet another murder victim.

FTA69 wrote:

Members of the 26 County Army in Eritrea were involved in a scandal involving underage African prostitutes, is the whole force to be blamed for the actions of a few?

I think you mean the Irish Army. Did the Army and the Department of Defence close ranks, initiate a coverup, and tacitly (or otherwise) discourage witnesses from talking to the police about that incident?

FTA69 wrote:

Sinn Féin was not responsible for this murder and they condemned it utterly. They believe that the murderers should be brought to justice

...as long as that justice doesn't involve co-operation with the appropriate authorities? Hypocrisy is far too kind a word.

FTA69 wrote:

...and have encouraged people to give information to whoever they choose.

Suppose they choose to tell their brother-in-law. How, exactly, is that supposed to help bring the murderers to justice?

FTA69 wrote:

Unfortunately because Sinn Féin have been wrongly blamed for this killing they have been forced to react strongly to it.

Whoah, hangon. What are you saying? That Sinn Féin as an organisation are not responsible, or that nobody connected with Sinn Féin is responsible? From what I gathered on the radio, those alleged to be responsible are party activists, and have been seen entering and leaving the Sinn Féin offices on a regular basis since the murder.

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

I would like to think that if Gerry Adams had information that could lead to an arrest he would make it available to the PSNI, but I'm realistic enough to know that might not happen.

Let's suppose Gerry does have that information, and let's suppose he decides to tell his dog instead of the police. Would you still have the same respect for Sinn Féin as a political party?

irish1 wrote:

I do however feel that the statements from Adams and Kelly will give poeple the security to come forward with information.

It seems much more likely to me that the same statements are coded warnings to people not to talk to the police if they know what's good for them. If the Gerries thought it was OK for people to talk to the police, why not say so?

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

Let's suppose Gerry does have that information, and let's suppose he decides to tell his dog instead of the police. Would you still have the same respect for Sinn Féin as a political party?

I would not have the same respect for Gerry Adams, thats for sure, as for the party I don't know.

oscarBravo wrote:

It seems much more likely to me that the same statements are coded warnings to people not to talk to the police if they know what's good for them. If the Gerries thought it was OK for people to talk to the police, why not say so?

I see what your saying but if you look at the history of policing in the North I think you can see why SF don't tell people to go directly to the PSNI, they don't however tell them not to!

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

I see what your saying but if you look at the history of policing in the North I think you can see why SF don't tell people to go directly to the PSNI, they don't however tell them not to!

I can't see that at all. Neither can the family of the murdered man - many of whom were committed SF voters up until a couple of weeks ago.

As for looking at history, I've said it before: your past isn't your future, unless you live there. If people took their minds off history long enough to look to the future, the North might not be in the state it's in.

swiss

jman0 wrote:

I'll edit it if you can show me what board rules in violates.

It doesn't break any guideline or rule as far as I can tell, but it is a highly injudicious point. Not all IRA guns have been decommissioned. Also, why the smilie? Do you find the point amusing?

FTA69 wrote:

To state that the IRA as a whole is simply a parasitical body of thugs underlines your ignorance about the IRA swiss.

I simply stated that I see the IRA as a front for thuggery and criminality. I don't contend that there is also an element of idealism, however corrupted, that seeks to defend catholic communities and achieve the aim of a united Ireland within that organisation. It is the means of executing those aims, rather then the aims themselves, with which I have an issue.

I would furthurmore posit that believing that the IRA are not a parasitical body displays an equal level of ignorance regarding that organisation. I would also contend that the levels of thuggery and criminality have reached such a state that whatever mandate that may have existed vis á vis the original goals of the IRA have been eclipsed by the mandate of personal gains and power for it's members, achieved through criminal acts.

This is merely the latest in a long line of incidents which serve to undermine the brutality, lawlessness and impunity of IRA operatives, with the tacit complicity of the IRA adjunct, Sinn Féin. It has got to stop.

ishmael whale

SF seem to be suggesting a sort of DIY approach to homicide investigation.

Presumably once the family have enough evidence they hold a court case in their sitting room, and if the defendants are found guilty they get locked up in a garden shed until deemed eligible for parole.

Methinks they are finding it hard to talk themselves out of this corner.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0215/mccartneyr.html
“SF wants transparency on McCartney killing

15 February 2005 15:52
Sinn Féin Chief Negotiator Martin McGuinness has appealed for anyone with information about the recent killing of Robert McCartney to give that information to the victim's family.

Mr McCartney, 33, was fatally stabbed during a fight at Magennis's Bar in Belfast over two weeks ago.

Speaking in London this afternoon, Mr McGuinness condemned the killing and said the McCartney family deserved justice. He said anyone with reservations about going to the PSNI should pass any information they had 'to the family or any respected organisation'. ….”

BuffyBot

Sinn Féin was not responsible for this murder and they condemned it utterly. They believe that the murderers should be brought to justice and have encouraged people to give information to whoever they choose. Unfortunately because Sinn Féin have been wrongly blamed for this killing they have been forced to react strongly to it.

Only after considerable pressure. If they were so concerned, you would imagine they would have been a bit quicker to disavow knowledge and call for people to come forward

FTA69

ishmael whale wrote:

I don’t think anyone has suggested that SF are responsible for this murder, or that there is any political aspect to it, so I really don’t understand why you are addressing a point that no-one has made.

The title of this thread labels Sinn Féin as responsible for the murder! To clarify my response to you, if the victim was a non-Republican there would be the same response in my view because any murder carried out by rogue IRA members would result in the same arguments put forward by people here.

FTA69

BuffyBot wrote:

Only after considerable pressure. If they were so concerned, you would imagine they would have been a bit quicker to disavow knowledge and call for people to come forward

What alledged IRA members may or may not get up to is not the business of Sinn Féin and as such they were slower to discover the circumstances surrounding the murder.

FTA69

I simply stated that I see the IRA as a front for thuggery and criminality. I don't contend that there is also an element of idealism, however corrupted, that seeks to defend catholic communities and achieve the aim of a united Ireland within that organisation. It is the means of executing those aims, rather then the aims themselves, with which I have an issue.

The IRA is not a "front for thugs and criminality", IRA activists are normal people who have been forced to take up armed struggle by circumstances which are dramatically different to most othe rplaces in Europe. IRA members have devoted themselves to a life which sees nothing but hardship, imprisonment or death, they have died on Hunger Strike in several prisons. They are not mindless criminals or thugs. As I said, since its inception in 1916 there have been undesirable elements within Óglaigh na hÉireann but that in no equates with the organisation being a front for thugs.

I would furthurmore posit that believing that the IRA are not a parasitical body displays an equal level of ignorance regarding that organisation. I would also contend that the levels of thuggery and criminality have reached such a state that whatever mandate that may have existed vis á vis the original goals of the IRA have been eclipsed by the mandate of personal gains and power for it's members, achieved through criminal acts.

There are no personal gains to be had from being an IRA member and the organisation retains much the same support amongst its communities as it always did.

This is merely the latest in a long line of incidents which serve to undermine the brutality, lawlessness and impunity of IRA operatives, with the tacit complicity of the IRA adjunct, Sinn Féin. It has got to stop.

Sinn Féin condemns utterly all acts of thuggery, including the recent murder of Bert McCartney. The vast majority of IRA members are in no way linked to this type of behaviour.

cdebru

ishmael whale wrote:

SF seem to be suggesting a sort of DIY approach to homicide investigation.

Presumably once the family have enough evidence they hold a court case in their sitting room, and if the defendants are found guilty they get locked up in a garden shed until deemed eligible for parole.

Methinks they are finding it hard to talk themselves out of this corner.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0215/mccartneyr.html
“SF wants transparency on McCartney killing

15 February 2005 15:52
Sinn Féin Chief Negotiator Martin McGuinness has appealed for anyone with information about the recent killing of Robert McCartney to give that information to the victim's family.

Mr McCartney, 33, was fatally stabbed during a fight at Magennis's Bar in Belfast over two weeks ago.

Speaking in London this afternoon, Mr McGuinness condemned the killing and said the McCartney family deserved justice. He said anyone with reservations about going to the PSNI should pass any information they had 'to the family or any respected organisation'. ….”

Sinn Fein are being consistent with their position on policing
ie that the PSNI are not acceptable yet
however it is odd in regards that if the deal proposed in december had been agreed the PSNI would have suddenly become acceptable
sinn fein would have taken its places on the policing boards they would have had a minister either for justice or policing in a few months

then the sinn fein leadership would have to actively encourage people to pass on information to the PSNI

ishmael whale

FTA69 wrote:

The title of this thread labels Sinn Féin as responsible for the murder!.

Are you suggesting that SF statements on this topic are in response to the title of this thread? I never knew they monitored us so closely.

Can I also suggest that the substance of the contributions to this thread make it clear that the question at issue is SF’s position on rogue IRA members who engage in criminal acts with no political aspects.

FTA69 wrote:

To clarify my response to you, if the victim was a non-Republican there would be the same response in my view because any murder carried out by rogue IRA members would result in the same arguments put forward by people here.

You seem to have enormous faith in the ability of this forum to influence SF policy.

However, in reality, it would appear that one of the key reasons that SF had to comment on the case is the fact that the victim is an SF supporter. It is far from clear that they would have a similar interest if a group of drunken IRA members killed a Progressive Democrat supporter in a pub brawl on the way home from a commemoration in Bodenstown. I doubt if SF are much influenced by "arguments put forward by people here."

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

The IRA is not a "front for thugs and criminality", IRA activists are normal people who have been forced to take up armed struggle by circumstances which are dramatically different to most othe rplaces in Europe. IRA members have devoted themselves to a life which sees nothing but hardship, imprisonment or death, they have died on Hunger Strike in several prisons. They are not mindless criminals or thugs. As I said, since its inception in 1916 there have been undesirable elements within Óglaigh na hÉireann but that in no equates with the organisation being a front for thugs..

I agree with all that except the IRA has not been involved in an armed struggle for over 10 years
alot of the current IRA membership were not active during the conflict

what will and may already be happening to IRA is that because it does not have a war to fight it will drift into criminality
this is exactly what happened to the Official IRA it went into criminality originally to fund its political aspirations in the Workers Party but eventually just as a criminal gang out to line there own pockets even printing theri own money
I do not want that to happen to the IRA it will only besmirch the memory of the sacrifices that people made during the armed struggle

FTA69 wrote:

There are no personal gains to be had from being an IRA member and the organisation retains much the same support amongst its communities as it always did..

at the moment but if events like this murder continue that support will quickly disappear

FTA69 wrote:

Sinn Féin condemns utterly all acts of thuggery, including the recent murder of Bert McCartney. The vast majority of IRA members are in no way linked to this type of behaviour.

yes but people want to see something done about it not just a bit of condemnation and lets hope people forget about it
unfortunately if this crime goes unpunished then all IRA members are tarred with the one brush

FTA69

I agree with all that except the IRA has not been involved in an armed struggle for over 10 years
alot of the current IRA membership were not active during the conflict

what will and may already be happening to IRA is that because it does not have a war to fight it will drift into criminality
this is exactly what happened to the Official IRA it went into criminality originally to fund its political aspirations in the Workers Party but eventually just as a criminal gang out to line there own pockets even printing theri own money

I agree with you to an extent but it is not a given that former guerillas will turn into criminals, it hasn't always happened in the past. That is why I hope to see the Army done away with once its purpose has been fulfilled.

I do not want that to happen to the IRA it will only besmirch the memory of the sacrifices that people made during the armed struggle

I don't think any Republican does.

at the moment but if events like this murder continue that support will quickly disappear

True, it will and the IRA must get its house in order quickly.

yes but people want to see something done about it not just a bit of condemnation and lets hope people forget about it
unfortunately if this crime goes unpunished then all IRA members are tarred with the one brush

Again I agree with you.

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

I agree with you to an extent but it is not a given that former guerillas will turn into criminals, it hasn't always happened in the past. That is why I hope to see the Army done away with once its purpose has been fulfilled.
.

I believe at this time although its purpose has not been fulfilled ( ie a united Ireland)
the IRA should be stood down and the weapons decommissioned it is in the interest of republicans and of the memory of those who gave their lives

Sand

I would like to think that if Gerry Adams had information that could lead to an arrest he would make it available to the PSNI, but I'm realistic enough to know that might not happen.

Why? Surely Adams as the leader of a law abiding democratic party that holds seats in our Dail would be happy to provide any information that he could in the matter of a brutal murder like this, or indeed in any other case?

Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers, they have made it clear that people with evidence should go to people they deem to be the best choice. We cannot support the police, or encourage the supporting of the police for reasons I have outlined many times before in this board. That does not equate with us protecting or approving of this murder.

Paula McCartney disagrees. Shes accusing SF/IRA of covering for their members who committed the murder of her brother, of intimidating people to prevent them coming forward with evidence and of attempting to prevent the police from investigating the crime by trying to organise riots. The writer in the Blanket, (that west brit rag) also echoes the view that SF/IRA are attempting to cover this up.

She has repeatedly stated she wants people to co-operate with the police on this matter, and yet SF/IRA continue to feel the capture of her brothers killers is less important than making a petty political point. Id like to find out which community center it was that refused to carry posters looking for information because it contained a PNSI insignia. I'd wonder who would be heavily involved in running that center. Either way, the McCartney family have been treated so shamefully by SF/IRA that they have said they'd sooner vote for the DUP than SF/IRA ever again. Its only a shame that the true nature of SF/IRA became apparent to them in the light of such a tragedy.

So, according to the people involved yes SF/IRA are attempting to protect the killers, and they certainly seem to disprove of co-operating with the police far more than this murder. Are you calling the families liars?

As for Adams, McGuinesses and Kellys words they are a PR damage limitation exercise. Theyre what the party flock - woops faithful - want to hear. Evidence is worthless unless it is backed up by a statement and a willingness to testify at the trial of these men. As such telling the family what you saw, or telling a priest or telling a solicitor is meaningless. SF/IRA know this. The subtext is do not co-operate with the police in this matter whatsoever.

Even McGuinnesses statement that "I have a very clear view that anyone involved in crime should be arrested, they should be brought before the courts and given due process" turned out to be very unclear indeed. He was asked by a journalist if this meant they should be arrested by the PNSI - to which McGuinness bull****ted that they should be " arrested by whoever the appropriate authorities are". He simply couldnt bring himself to say that the PNSI were the appropriate authorities. Unless of course, he means the IRA are the appropriate authorities.

In which case the age old question of who polices the "police" arises in a case where the self appointed community police can murder -and beat, and torture, and torment, and maim though we dont hear as much about these far more common cases - with impunity.

[EDIT] Another question I meant to ask is would Saint Bobby Sands would be proud of the inheritors of his holy war? Did he starve himself to death so he could be used to make a mafia terrorist group more respectable? Who knows, maybe he would be proud. [/EDIT]

FTA69

attempting to prevent the police from investigating the crime by trying to organise riots.

The only people using this case for alterior motives were the police who used this incident as an excuse to stage a massive raid into the Short Strand where they jostled bystanders and started to smash in doors of numerous people. It was in reaction to this attack on the area that people came out to defend their homes. Republicans do not need any encouragement to attack the police in defense of their area, least of all from Sinn Féin or the IRA who have often tried to restrain people from engaging in this behaviour. For your information Sinn Féin members actually had to stand in front of the police in the Short Strand to discourage youths from stoning them. Hardly the actions of "orchestration".

The writer in the Blanket, (that west brit rag) also echoes the view that SF/IRA are attempting to cover this up.

The Blanket's writers may well be Republicans but they are also vehemently opposed to Sinn Féin and the IRA and have denigrated them consistently for years, both in terms of politics and personalities. They are hardly impartial observers.

Id like to find out which community center it was that refused to carry posters looking for information because it contained a PNSI insignia.

The community centre said it had no problems with the statement itself, simply the displaying of the insignia of a police force which has either killed or colluded with the people who killed, numerous people from the area.

So, according to the people involved yes SF/IRA are attempting to protect the killers, and they certainly seem to disprove of co-operating with the police far more than this murder. Are you calling the families liars?

No, I am simply rejecting the assertion that Sinn Féin is seeking to protect the murderers, if they were out to protect them they wouldn't be encouraging people to give information to whoever they see fit.

As such telling the family what you saw, or telling a priest or telling a solicitor is meaningless. SF/IRA know this. The subtext is do not co-operate with the police in this matter whatsoever.

The policy with matters such as these is that people are free to give information to whoever they deem the best choice. McGuinness said that regarding the recent robbery and the same goes for this murder.

[EDIT] Another question I meant to ask is would Saint Bobby Sands would be proud of the inheritors of his holy war? Did he starve himself to death so he could be used to make a mafia terrorist group more respectable? Who knows, maybe he would be proud. [/EDIT]

Do you say things simply to see what result it has on impact?