Side View Mirror Slapped by Motorcyclist near Dublin

BikeH8R1

Tuesday, February 8th, 2005
M1 Motorway, just outside of Dublin:

About 8:30 in the morning, heading southbound on the M1 just a few miles north of the airport exit. On my way to pick up a friend coming in from the States. Get down to stop and go traffic, need to get into left lane to prepare to exit. Activate turn signal, nice person in left lane flashes to let me in. Check mirrors one last time, move over to left lane. Re-check mirrors after lane change, all I can see is a motorcycle, who has zoomed up behind me, trying to get around as fast as possible. Stares me down as he flies by two inches from the right side of my car and slaps my side view mirror, hard. Breaks the plastic frame and loosens the whole assembly, zooms off.

I have had friends die in motorcycle accidents. I ride motorcycles (albeit safely and non-confrontationally). I give them plenty of space and respect when driving a car. However, when you are cutting between stopped traffic, and I make a legitimate lane change, and you intentionally damage my car, I have a BIG PROBLEM WITH YOU.

As a lifelong enthusiast of all motor-driven vehicles, I know that the one thing you NEVER do is screw with someone else's car/motorcycle, whatever. If you have a problem with something I did, take it up with me, not my car. Now I have something to take up with YOU.

If you slapped the mirror of a black VW Golf in this location at this time, you and I have unfinished business. Come forward and take responsibility for your actions.

murphaph

Sorry to hear that. some real assholes out there. Some thug smashed the glass of my passenger side mirror once. The car was parked up, I didn't see who did it. Cost me a fair few quid-main dealer part. I hate the anti-social dgenerates in this country.

pwd

I used to ride a push bike in dublin. One person nearly took me away twice changing lanes without looking. I cycled after them for a reasonable distance. caught them in a traffic jam. smashed their mirror. cycled off.
Maybe a case of mistaken identity in your case or maybe you weren't as cautious as you let on.

8bi1ctzegfouva

pwd wrote:

I used to ride a push bike in dublin. One person nearly took me away twice changing lanes without looking. I cycled after them for a reasonable distance. caught them in a traffic jam. smashed their mirror. cycled off.

****ing gouger.

pwd wrote:

Maybe a case of mistaken identity in your case or maybe you weren't as cautious as you let on.

you say maybe he wasn't as catious as he says, well maybe you weren't looking where you were going, or were cutting in and out of traffic?

murphaph

the detective wrote:

****ing gouger.

Agreed. I'm a cyclist these days and if someone is driving dangerously call the guards and report it, no point in causing criminal damage. The attitude of people is all wrong, no wonder it's such a **** hole country.

kasintahan

murphaph wrote:

Agreed. I'm a cyclist these days and if someone is driving dangerously call the guards and report it, no point in causing criminal damage. The attitude of people is all wrong, no wonder it's such a **** hole country.

Persoanlly, if he'd someone nealy killed me when I was cycling I'd have trouble at stopping at the mirror...

pwd

No: wasn't cutting in and out. I was looking where i was going or i would have been hit.
guards would have done fa if i'd reported them.
was hit by a car. Had my bike creamed. reported that to the guards. they said grand it's on record that you reported it, as in if i wanted to get a solicitor involved it would be on record. that's the entire contribution offered by the guards if there is no obvious and serious injury.
My back was ****ed for ages.

causal

BikeH8R1 wrote:

Activate turn signal, nice person in left lane flashes to let me in. Check mirrors one last time, move over to left lane. Re-check mirrors after lane change, all I can see is a motorcycle, who has zoomed up behind me, trying to get around as fast as possible. Stares me down as he flies by two inches from the right side of my car and slaps my side view mirror, hard. Breaks the plastic frame and loosens the whole assembly, zooms off.

According to your post you only checked your mirror! :eek:
And you only checked it once - after you indicated and just before your manoeuvre.
And then you say you checked your mirror _after_ the manoeuvre - why? Did you expect to see something there?

Is it possible that he was in one of your blind spots all along.
Is it also possible that he had not "zoomed up behind" you, but was in fact there in the first place.

You said "I ride motorcycles" - so choosing a username like 'BikeH8R1' seems a little odd since that would include yourself.
And your use of the plural/infinitive is strange too. Normally someone one say 'I ride a bike myself' or 'I'm a biker myself'.

In any event, if you ride a motorcycle yourself then you should know that using your mirrors alone will ultimately put you in harms way. Looking over your shoulder before any manoeuvre is termed a "lifesaver" for a very good reason.

If, as you stated, you only used your mirror then you should keep an open mind to the possibility that you actually pulled out in front of him. And, consequently, that your actions could have caused a serious and potentially fatal accident.

It can be easy to ignore our own mistakes and focus on those of others.
Whatever the case, smashing your mirror was illegal.


causAl

seamus

I'm inclined to agree with causal. Unless you took ages to perform the lane change, or the motorcyclist was going 100km/h faster than the rest of the traffic, there's no way he just "zoomed up behind" you, rather you failed to spot him.

I'm in no way condoning the actions of the biker, what he did was complete scumbaggery, but in all situations like this, you also have to analyse your own driving and consider what mistakes you made and/or what you can do to prevent this happening again.

test999

What causAl said.

And I'd like to add that if you cut the biker up due to inadequate observation,
you could have killed the biker in the blink of an eye.

Think about that, a careless move can kill someone else.

Bikers are flesh and bone.

It's because of this, bikers take near miss collisions with cars personally.
It's not metal cage on metal cage, it's the bikers body against your car.

If you cut a biker up, getting your door panels kicked or wing mirrors smashed up...it's going to happen.

The biker hit your mirror, what did he hit it with? his bars? his hands? (hitting something like that with your hands would break your wrist) I assume it was an accident.

The biker is in the wrong in any case.

Sorry for your troubles.

RuggieBear

I once took the wing mirror off a car with the bull bars of my bike. I went flying and was lucky i was wearing my helmet.....struggled off the ground and went up to apologise to the driver and he just started effing and blinding and calling me all sorts of things....so i just told him to **** off and picked up my bike and cycled off. If he had been decent about it and even asked if i was ok, i would have paid for the damage to his car. Stupid Wanker

BikeH8R1

In response to some of your posts:

This occured in almost stopped traffic.

It must have hurt his hand, but he did intentionally slap the mirror.

Kasintahan, I don't know where you got the impression that he was almost killed. Isn't that a risk anytime you get on a bike? Wouldn't you agree that riding between stopped cars that can move or change lanes at any time is a big risk in itself?

My choice of name "BikeH8R1" was purely to post this thread. I have no intention of posting any other threads or topics.

I constantly analyze my driving, that is the method in which we improve. I took all reasonable precautions before changing lanes. It seems quite presumptuous as a motorcyclist to assume that the driver of a car is going to spot a target as small as themselves driving through stopped cars of varying size, movement, etc. especially when you involve curves, rush hour traffic, etc.

Test999, you talk like this motorcyclist was sitting there and I was driving recklessly. This all occured at slow speeds. Indicators were used. A safe motorcyclist would have been motoring slowly between stopped traffic, or not at all. Riding a motorcycle is extremely dangerous (did you miss the part about 2 friends of mine being killed on motorcycles?), so why would you take additional risks by riding between cars in rush hour?

Another point: How could he not have seen my indicator and the space left for me in the left lane by the curteous driver who had flashed me over? Isn't it possible that he was the one not being observant? Shouldn't he have been overly sensitive to the possibility of a car changing lanes in this situation? If you can't put all this together, you shouldn't be riding a motorcycle. You have to forsee all possibilities, anything can happen. Shortsightedness could cost you your life anytime, anyplace.

I think there are two main issues here: Acceptable Risk & Reaction.

Everyone will have their own opinions, but as someone who wants to stay alive for as long as possible, this motorcyclist was taking an unacceptable risk. Motorcycles ARE VERY DANGEROUS. The risk involved is much greater than in a car, therefore your responsibility to ride safely should also increase. We are all using the same motorway, why should the rules be different for motorcycles (cutting between cars) than cars?

This motorcyclist's reaction was totally unacceptable. He took a risk riding between cars. I hindered his forward progress for a couple of seconds, and he felt the need to smash my side view mirror. I can't say for absolute sure that I didn't cut him off, I won't deny that. However, I did everything (within reason) to indicate and execute a safe lane change, and now I have a broken mirror because of someone's unchecked aggression. I'll say it again: If you have a problem with something I did, take it up with me, not my car.

tk123

If the biker was able to smash your mirror with his hand(which would prob break my hand/make me fall off the bike) I reckon you should be content with that rather than asking that he takes it up with you and he smashes your face in. There are people out on the roads who are complete w@nkers - whether they are on a bike or a car - yes it's annoying but we all deal with it!

Is there a mod in the house who can just close this thread - since this guy signed up to post a thread to tell us that he hates all of us bikers and he's a great driver and doesn't plan posting any other posts. OR could you banish him to PI - since his handle is 'BikeHR1' and he says he rides bikes himself so really the handle means he hates himself(=PI)???!

Somebody go and turn on the 'M for Mod' signal - I can't cos I'm stuck on the phones for a while!!

test999

> This occured in almost stopped traffic.
>
> It must have hurt his hand, but he did intentionally slap the mirror.
>
> Kasintahan, I don't know where you got the impression that he was almost killed. Isn't that a risk anytime you get on a bike? Wouldn't > you agree that riding between stopped cars that can move or change lanes at any time is a big risk in itself?

Riding, cutting lanes, and filtering, between stopped cars is a moderately dangerous activity,
doing so amongst very slow moving cars is deadly.

> My choice of name "BikeH8R1" was purely to post this thread. I have no intention of posting any other threads or topics.
Glad to hear it.

> I constantly analyze my driving, that is the method in which we improve. I took all reasonable precautions before changing lanes. It seems quite presumptuous as a motorcyclist to assume that the driver of a car is going to spot a target as small as themselves driving through stopped cars of varying size, movement, etc. especially when you involve curves, rush hour traffic, etc.
>
> Test999, you talk like this motorcyclist was sitting there and I was driving recklessly.
It wasn't my intention to imply that.

> This all occured at slow speeds. Indicators were used. A safe motorcyclist would have been motoring slowly between stopped traffic, or not at all. Riding a motorcycle is extremely dangerous (did you miss the part about 2 friends of mine being killed on motorcycles?), so why would you take additional risks by riding between cars in rush hour?

I did not miss any of your post about two dead riders, car drivers and motorcyclists die every day.
I chose to ignore it, as it's not relevant to this accident, and what is the
point of owning a motorbike if you are going to sit in lines like a car?
>
> Another point: How could he not have seen my indicator and the space left for me in the left lane by the curteous driver who had flashed me over? Isn't it possible that he was the one not being observant?

......If he could see your indicator, it means you could see him, and it means you pulled out in front of the biker.
Indicating is a indication (hence indicator) of intent, turning on your flashing orange light is not a Right Of Way
which some people seem to think it is.

> Shouldn't he have been overly sensitive to the possibility of a car changing lanes in this situation?
Yes, the biker should be overly sensitive to the possiblity of car drivers pulling in front of them.
Couldn't you have waited 3 seconds for the biker to pass?,
instead of pulling in front of him, causing him to break, and then break your car?

>If you can't put all this together, you shouldn't be riding a motorcycle. You have to forsee all possibilities, anything can happen. Shortsightedness could cost you your life anytime, anyplace.

I'm well aware of this, I'm an experienced rider.

> Everyone will have their own opinions, but as someone who wants to stay alive for as long as possible, this motorcyclist was taking an unacceptable risk. Motorcycles ARE VERY DANGEROUS.
No, motorcycles are not in themselves dangerous. The attitude of the rider is what counts.
If the bike riders attitude is rational and he assumes all car drivers are asleep at the wheel or just plain old thick'n'ignorant
the biker will be fine.

> This motorcyclist's reaction was totally unacceptable.
Agreed.

> He took a risk riding between cars.
He did.

> I hindered his forward progress for a couple of seconds,
honestly, it sounds like you cut him up.

> and he felt the need to smash my side view mirror. I can't say for absolute sure that I didn't cut him off, I won't deny that.
Fair enough. It's unfortunate that this had to happen. Let's be grateful that an nasty accident didn't happen.

> However, I did everything (within reason) to indicate and execute a safe lane change,
and now I have a broken mirror because of someone's unchecked aggression.

seamus

I had initially thought you were a troll (it's very easy to get a rise out of the bikers here by posting exactly what you did), but your reasonable, intelligent reply makes me think otherwise.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

Another point: How could he not have seen my indicator and the space left for me in the left lane by the curteous driver who had flashed me over? Isn't it possible that he was the one not being observant? Shouldn't he have been overly sensitive to the possibility of a car changing lanes in this situation? If you can't put all this together, you shouldn't be riding a motorcycle. You have to forsee all possibilities, anything can happen. Shortsightedness could cost you your life anytime, anyplace.

Absolutely correct. But you don't get experience without experiencing. A biker's correct reaction/attitude to such situations can be taught, but it's only through experiencing it that it can be done correctly. It's very possible, and probably that he wasn't as cautious either. While riding between traffic, "churning" (traffic changing lanes for no obvious reason other than the space exists) is easily the biggest danger. It can occur anytime, anywhere, but certain traffic configurations increase the risk of churn - such as a large gap between vehicles. Clearly in this situation, an error of judgement also occured on the rider's part to allow himself to be caught out by your changing lanes.

Everyone will have their own opinions, but as someone who wants to stay alive for as long as possible, this motorcyclist was taking an unacceptable risk. Motorcycles ARE VERY DANGEROUS. The risk involved is much greater than in a car, therefore your responsibility to ride safely should also increase. We are all using the same motorway, why should the rules be different for motorcycles (cutting between cars) than cars?

Well, as test says, the danger in motorcycling is more an attitude thing. In theory, the chances of crashing on a motorcycle should be no more than the chances of crashing a car.
In practice, as far as I know, the percentage of two-vehicle collisions involving motorcycles doesn't show any appreciable increase for motorcycles, relative to the number of two-vehicle accidents involving cars. That is, if there are 50,000 motorcycles, and 1,000 of them are involved in two-vehicle accidents, then one in 50 cars will also be involved in two-vehicle accidents. However, the number of single-vehicle accidents involving motorcycles is slightly higher, and usually is caused by loss of control (afaik) - a pure sign that the rider's skill/attitude is immature or incorrect.
This means that the act of riding a bike isn't actually more dangerous, it just depends on how you ride it. If all motorcycles drove like cars, the number of dead motorcyclists would *still* be overrepresented in the stats, and people would still be under the impression that a motorcycle is more likely than a car to crash in traffic, even though the figures say otherwise.

uberwolf

A friend of mine a decade ago used to have two water bottles on his bike, one full of cement.

He recommended this course of action to another friend of his. The same fella rang him a week later for bail. He'd lobbed it through the back window of a car that'd cut him up and out hopped 4 plain clothes!!! so you can only hope that this same fella ends up the same!!

davidoco

murphaph wrote:

call the guards and report it, no point in causing criminal damage. The attitude of

A couple of weeks ago an artic. truck driver ran me off the Naas road and came within two inches of driving over a lady in front of him when he saw my lights. I had to ring the ladies husband to come and get her she was in such a state (she had stopped). I think he was asleep or half asleep at the wheel. So I rang the report a crime on the roads number and lo and behold got a cop in a station in Leitrim or somewhere who was also half asleep. Gave him all my details etc and he said that somebody would be in touch. No word as of yet!

BikeH8R1

Don't worry tk123, I simply wanted to hear some other people's opinions and to get my story out. I feel better just having put it into words. You won't hear from me again. It also gave others a chance to share their stories, and I enjoyed/learned from them.

Test, I enjoyed your thoughts, although I don't necessarily agree that the point of owning a motorbike is to not have to sit in lines like a car. I would argue that the joy of motorcycling can be found on a twisty, deserted road on a beautiful summer day.

Seamus, thanks for your post also. I agree with your crash statistics, but when I was talking about danger I was referring more to bodily harm of a rider as opposed to a driver of a car. I'm not too concerned about getting hurt in a slow speed fender-bender in a car, but that same accident on a motorcycle could cost you a leg or worse.

My final thoughts are that neither myself or the motorcyclist was at fault. I certainly didn't change lanes in front of him intentionally, and I don't honestly know how fast he was coming up from behind. The only thing to do is to learn from this experience, and hope that the motorcyclist learned something too. I hope that by sharing this story someone who reads it can avoid a broken mirror!

As a pleasant and unexpected outcome, my first (albeit harsh) post brought out some good people, ideas and discussions. Perhaps I will change my name and contribute on some other topics. Thanks for listening everyone.

Hotblack Desiato

BikeH8R1 wrote:

Don't worry tk123, I simply wanted to hear some other people's opinions and to get my story out. I feel better just having put it into words.

....aaand release. You wouldn't believe the number of times I've come home from a bike ride absolutely bulling about the twit who nearly killed me. Later I wonder what I could have done to prevent it. At the end of the day anger gets you nowhere. Experience, and training, allows you to anticipate the actions of other road users however dangerous or stupid, and retain a survival space for yourself. So there is a lot that riders can do to protect themselves, but having ridden bikes all over Europe, there is no doubt in my mind that Irish car drivers are right at the bottom of the competency league. Some of them would have worse observation skills than Helen Keller. "That bike came out of nowhere." Yeah right.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

You won't hear from me again. It also gave others a chance to share their stories, and I enjoyed/learned from them.

I hope you have. Especially the bit about how indicators don't give you the right of way, you can't get sufficient view from a mirror alone, and that you must yield to ALL traffic before changing lane.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

Test, I enjoyed your thoughts, although I don't necessarily agree that the point of owning a motorbike is to not have to sit in lines like a car.

Absolutely that is what the point of a motorcycle is. Cars create the gridlock, not us, why should we suffer?

BikeH8R1 wrote:

I would argue that the joy of motorcycling can be found on a twisty, deserted road on a beautiful summer day.

I hope you have better sk1llz on the bike than in the car, you'll need them. As does every other rider who drives a car. Cars are too forgiving.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

My final thoughts are that neither myself or the motorcyclist was at fault. I certainly didn't change lanes in front of him intentionally, and I don't honestly know how fast he was coming up from behind.

Who "intentionally" causes a collision?
Who "intentionally" runs over a child, or drunkenly hits a mother of three?
None of them ever "meant" to do it.
Until all road users in this country accept, that every time, every day on the road there is the possibility that a single moment's inattention could kill someone or cause themselves to be killed, and drive/ride accordingly, we will continue to have outrageous death rates on our roads.

FFS we still have loads of people who think it's ok to drink and drive because they know they won't get caught.

[/rant]

cyclopath2001

BikeH8R1 wrote:

Tuesday, February 8th, 2005
Get down to stop and go traffic, need to get into left lane to prepare to exit. Activate turn signal, nice person in left lane flashes to let me in.

What were you doing in the outside lane overtaking traffic when you knew you'd be turning left? Sounds like you were queue-jumping?

seamus

cyclopath2001 wrote:

What were you doing in the outside lane overtaking traffic when you knew you'd be turning left? Sounds like you were queue-jumping?

Traffic was queued. Overtaking lane becomes another traffic lane.

Bee

As a lifelong enthusiast of all motor-driven vehicles, I know that the one thing you NEVER do is screw with someone else's car/motorcycle, whatever. If you have a problem with something I did, take it up with me, not my car. Now I have something to take up with YOU.

Thug motorcyclists like their low life cycling counterparts deserve everything they get. That idiot motorcyclist gives a bad name to the motor/cycling fraternity who would never do anyting as stupid as that guy.

Congrat's and Good to see your fair and correct use of lane changing etc.

Bee

P.S. Darwinian evolution will take care of the pond life lower species like that eejit and his cohorts

test999

Why are motorcyclists thugs?

causal

BikeH8R1 wrote:

Kasintahan, I don't know where you got the impression that he was almost killed. Isn't that a risk anytime you get on a bike? Wouldn't you agree that riding between stopped cars that can move or change lanes at any time is a big risk in itself?

Lesson 1: ANY incident on a bike can be fatal.
The big danger with filtering between lines of traffic is people changing lane without proper observation, and failing to yield right of way.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

My choice of name "BikeH8R1" was purely to post this thread. I have no intention of posting any other threads or topics.

I presume you don't really hate all bikers, which supposedly includes yourself and all your biking buddies. It's a poor choice.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

I constantly analyze my driving, that is the method in which we improve. I took all reasonable precautions before changing lanes.

Lesson 2: NO YOU DID NOT.
According to your own account of events you indicated, checked your mirror, then changed lane.
That does not satisfy even the lowest standard of testing in this country (the driving test), which is pathetically inadequate anyway.
The minimum requirement is: Mirror - Signal - Mirror - Manouevre. Which imho simply isn't good enough. It doesn't cover your blind spots - that's why you need the 'lifesaver', or in a car to look through both rear and front passenger windows when turning left.
And you should do the above observations twice, because any hazard could have moved between your blind spots as you were doing your other observations.
What I have described would be considered "reasonable precautions".
Your description (one look in a mirror) is one or more of careless/wreckless/dangerous.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

It seems quite presumptuous as a motorcyclist to assume that the driver of a car is going to spot a target as small as themselves driving through stopped cars of varying size, movement, etc. especially when you involve curves, rush hour traffic, etc.

Perhaps this is what happened - you didn't spot him? And in your mind (since we don't have his version of events) you blame him for assuming you saw him?
Lesson 3: Ride like they're trying to kill you
It is quite likelythat he was watching each and every car for the tell-tale signs of an imminent lane change: nearside or offside lane position, sudden acceleration/deceleration to get into position, hovering adjacent to a 'gap' in the other lane, drivers head movements, approaching on/off ramp / junction.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

Test999, you talk like this motorcyclist was sitting there and I was driving recklessly. This all occured at slow speeds. Indicators were used. A safe motorcyclist would have been motoring slowly between stopped traffic, or not at all. Riding a motorcycle is extremely dangerous (did you miss the part about 2 friends of mine being killed on motorcycles?), so why would you take additional risks by riding between cars in rush hour?

As for low speeds - see Lesson 1.
Lesson 4: Indicators do not confer right of way, they are merely a signal of intent. If in doubt - yield.

Lesson 5: Approximately 75% of accidents involving cars and bikes are the car drivers fault [ref Hurt Report]

Lesson 6: The most common excuse given by the car driver is "I didn't see you"
That's typically because either they didn't look at all. or they looked expecting to see nothing and saw exactly that.
Also drivers typically look for other cars, buses, trucks - they tend NOT to look for motorbikes, bicycles or pedestrians.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

Another point: How could he not have seen my indicator and the space left for me in the left lane by the curteous driver who had flashed me over? Isn't it possible that he was the one not being observant? Shouldn't he have been overly sensitive to the possibility of a car changing lanes in this situation? If you can't put all this together, you shouldn't be riding a motorcycle. You have to forsee all possibilities, anything can happen. Shortsightedness could cost you your life anytime, anyplace.

As for your indicator and the space in the left hand lane - see Lesson 4.
Lesson 7: Do not signal to other road users to proceed
- you get marked down for this in the driving test (the lowest standard there is)
Perhaps his observation was poor, we don't have him here to say either way.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

Everyone will have their own opinions, but as someone who wants to stay alive for as long as possible, this motorcyclist was taking an unacceptable risk. Motorcycles ARE VERY DANGEROUS.

STOP RIGHT THERE!!
Lesson 8: Cars are far more dangerous than motorcycles
Motorcycles are not dangerous. It's humans and their actions who bring danger.
If there was an impact he would have received a lot more injury from your car than you would from his bike. Cars are far far more dangerous than bikes.
Lesson 9 Motorcyclists are vulnerable road users, as are cyclists and pedestrians.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

The risk involved is much greater than in a car, therefore your responsibility to ride safely should also increase. We are all using the same motorway, why should the rules be different for motorcycles (cutting between cars) than cars?

Lesson 10 Every road user has a responsibility to themselves and to all other road users.
There are different rules that apply to different categories of vehicles. Bikes can filter because of their small size - car can't - that's why.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

This motorcyclist's reaction was totally unacceptable. He took a risk riding between cars.

We all take risks. But if someone elses actions put us in harms way - that is a totally different story.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

I hindered his forward progress for a couple of seconds, and he felt the need to smash my side view mirror. I can't say for absolute sure that I didn't cut him off, I won't deny that.

Well, at least we're getting closer to what actually happened. Now the learning can begin

BikeH8R1 wrote:

However, I did everything (within reason) to indicate and execute a safe lane change,

I really hope by now you realise how inadequate your observation was.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

and now I have a broken mirror because of someone's unchecked aggression. I'll say it again: If you have a problem with something I did, take it up with me, not my car.

The borken mirror is unfortunate. Remember that cutting up a car is annoying because it could cause a fender bender; cutting up a cyclist or motorcyclist has for more serious implications.
Lesson 11: Any fall for a biker can open Pandoras Box.


causal

causal

BikeH8R1 wrote:

My final thoughts are that neither myself or the motorcyclist was at fault.

Neither of you were solely at fault; but as is usally the case you were both at fault, whatever the proportion may be.

BikeH8R1 wrote:

The only thing to do is to learn from this experience, and hope that the motorcyclist learned something too. I hope that by sharing this story someone who reads it can avoid a broken mirror!

Here here!

BikeH8R1 wrote:

As a pleasant and unexpected outcome, my first (albeit harsh) post brought out some good people, ideas and discussions. Perhaps I will change my name and contribute on some other topics. Thanks for listening everyone.

Do that, there's some great fora here
causal

causal

Bee wrote:

Thug motorcyclists like their low life cycling counterparts deserve everything they get. That idiot motorcyclist gives a bad name to the motor/cycling fraternity who would never do anyting as stupid as that guy.

I take it, in your opinion, that applies equally to all thug motorists?
Ever come back to your car to find that another driver had bounced their door of yours and left a dent in it? :mad:
Ever come back to your car and find that another driver had 'touch parked' against your bumper and damaged it? :mad:

Bee wrote:

Congrat's and Good to see your fair and correct use of lane changing etc.

:eek: See my earlier post about observation.
[url] http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2379413&postcount=24 [/url]

Bee wrote:

P.S. Darwinian evolution will take care of the pond life lower species like that eejit and his cohorts

How do you figure that precisely?


causal

DubTony

I haven't even been on a motorbike in 20 years, (after a spill, I decided it was one saddle I wasn't getting back into) and back then there wasn't the type of traffic we have today. But this is something I would never have done.

Considering BikeH8R1 didn't see the bike coming up through the middle of 2 lanes of traffic, is it not fair to consider that maybe the bike had not been between the lanes the whole time. It's quite possible that he had just moved into that area of the road from behind another car just as BikeH8R1 changed lanes. Even travelling at 20 to 30 km/h there would be a large enough gap between cars to fit a bike into.

After all, if he's lunatic enough to drive in the middle of 2 lanes of traffic, is it not fair to assume he probably does a lot of weaving in and out as well?

And really, isn't it in the interest of all bikers to consider that every car driver is a complete moron, and drive accordingly?

Just a thought.

Tony

causal

DubTony wrote:

Considering BikeH8R1 didn't see the bike coming up through the middle of 2 lanes of traffic, is it not fair to consider that maybe the bike had not been between the lanes the whole time. It's quite possible that he had just moved into that area of the road from behind another car just as BikeH8R1 changed lanes. Even travelling at 20 to 30 km/h there would be a large enough gap between cars to fit a bike into.

Sure, it is fair to consider all options. What you suggest is possible.
But the fact that the driver checked his mirror only once before making the manouevre makes it likely that he wouldn't have seen the bike at all no matter the bike came from.

DubTony wrote:

After all, if he's lunatic enough to drive in the middle of 2 lanes of traffic, is it not fair to assume he probably does a lot of weaving in and out as well?

Firstly: It's not lunatic to filter - it's perfectly legal.
Secondly: In slow moving traffic bikes don't have to weave in and out - just stay along the white line and filter.

DubTony wrote:

And really, isn't it in the interest of all bikers to consider that every car driver is a complete moron, and drive accordingly?

Absolutely right. As I mentioned earlier "Lesson 3: Ride like they're trying to kill you"


causal

cyclopath2001

seamus wrote:

Traffic was queued. Overtaking lane becomes another traffic lane.

There's no reason why this motorist should have been in the outside lane unless he was jumping the queue for the exit.

He was in the wrong lane & then cut into the left lane, forcing another car to give way & nearly colliding with a motorbike in the process.

seamus

cyclopath2001 wrote:

There's no reason why this motorist should have been in the outside lane unless he was jumping the queue for the exit.

Unless he was in the overtaking lane before hitting traffic, and until then saw no need/opportunity to change lanes...

He was in the wrong lane & then cut into the left lane, forcing another car to give way & nearly colliding with a motorbike in the process.

The other vehicle let him in, there was no "forcing".

Jamesobrady

Story from another POV.....

I got my first bike just over a year ago.....great fun after i did some lessons.
Was riding the maynooth/dunboyne/clonee/leixlip backroads most days having great fun....not speeding or acting stupidly...just enjoying the different experience being on a bike is.
Got into leixlip one evening during heavy traffic in confey heading to captains hill...was sitting on the bike in traffic when 3 bikes filtered past....i though..oh yeah-me too!....and overtook the car in front of me..slowly...and I thought safely...no oncoming traffic etc.
As i passed the third car there was a gap in the road ahead so i kept going...as i entered the gap i realised i was in trouble....you know that split second "MMMNNNNEEEHHHHH" feeling you get before an impact?

.....the impact never happened thank god because the intelligent woman who was turning right into the housing estate entrance on my left...hence the gap in traffic....saw me oncoming and waited...realising i wasnt stopping and hadnt seen her. To be entirely honest i saw her as i passed her front indicator....she gave me a really "now...how do you feel?" kinda look.

.....never felt so grateful for the occasional presence of observant road users avoiding accidents. I always though i was one of them.....been driving long distance in cars for years and have had my fair share of adapting for other peoples cack ups.

Been riding since...albeit more observantly.....im not usually in a position to have to filter as most of my riding is not on dual carraigeways.
Ive been cut up by cars both whilst riding and driving on so many occasions that if i were to kick every wing mirror i'ld have my own mirror sales company at this stage....and also the actual physical split second effort it would take to intentionally remove a mirror whilst riding one handed(in that case!) and filtering way outways any emotional anger release it may bring..not to mention what happens if you miss and catch your foot on the car and lose balance....and then end up damaging a couple of cars.

Ive gotten to the stage where no matter what my form of transport i always assume the person who makes the mistake is just a gob****e and if no harm has been done then thats a good outcome. Beeping and shouting and breaking other peoples property is not going to change the situation we all find ourselves in on Irish roads....and it sure as hell isnt going to reduce insurance premiums!

Chalk

why would anyone willingly drive a bike into town on a monday morning in irish weather if they werent going to split the traffic in 2?

cyclopath2001

seamus wrote:

Unless he was in the overtaking lane before hitting traffic, and until then saw no need/opportunity to change lanes...
The other vehicle let him in, there was no "forcing".

Sounds like a combination of excessive speed & a lack of anticipation. Remember, one vehicle opened a gap, he jumped the queue on those behind the submissive one.

I've had some near misses where a motorist has flashed somebody in & the other driver is too busy blowing kisses at his/her benfactor to notice traffic moving in the inside lane.

RicardoSmith

Its amusing how many choose to ignore the story as given, and make up an imaginary excuse to justify the biker causing criminal damage. Because to some the car driver is always at fault, regardless of the situation.

Like Jamesobrady said. Always assume the guy in front is a mindless manic and you'll avoid a lot of potential situations. If you don't and get caught with your ass in the breeze then you've only got yourself to blame.

For every bad car driver story theres a bad biker story. Ditto pedestrians cyclists etc.

seamus

I'm pretty sure everyone has near misses like that Jamesobrady (if only we could tell them so well). It's the near misses that give you the most experience

Chalk wrote:

why would anyone willingly drive a bike into town on a monday morning in irish weather if they werent going to split the traffic in 2?

If a Garda ever stops me for driving down the bus lane on the N4 going home, and ask me why, I'll tell him, "Cos there's no fncking way I'm sitting in that traffic, in the freezing cold and pissings of rain, on my bike, for the entire 3 or so miles to Lucan."

He'd still do me, but twould be worth it

cyclopath2001

RicardoSmith wrote:

Its amusing how many choose to ignore the story as given, and make up an imaginary excuse to justify the biker causing criminal damage. Because to some the car driver is always at fault, regardless of the situation.

I do not think anyone can justify criminal damage, otherwise the roads would be like 'Mad Max'. Since the biker is not here to tell his side, we must try to read between the lines and reconstruct the true scenario & help the motorist better understand how the incident occurred.

RicardoSmith

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I do not think anyone can justify criminal damage, otherwise the roads would be like 'Mad Max'. Since the biker is not here to tell his side, we must try to read between the lines and reconstruct the true scenario & help the motorist better understand how the incident occurred.

Why must "we"? Why not take the story at face value and assume that the "motorist" understands how it happened perfectly?

But I guess, its easier just to invent a story, to suit the rant.

cyclopath2001

RicardoSmith wrote:

Why must "we"? Why not take the story at face value and assume that the "motorist" understands how it happened perfectly?

But I guess, its easier just to invent a story, to suit the rant.

There's two sides to every story.

causal

RicardoSmith wrote:

Why must "we"? Why not take the story at face value and assume that the "motorist" understands how it happened perfectly?

But I guess, its easier just to invent a story, to suit the rant.

What cyclopath said, plus

We only heard one side of this story.
And even that side of the story changed in the course of this thread.

In saying that, and to give credit where credit is due, the driver - did acknowledge that perhaps he did cut the motorcyclist up, but if so unintentionally. That's a start.

We shouldn't bury our head in the sand and point our finger at everyone else - I doubt either party acted 100% perfectly, the important thing is to learn, and improve our roadcraft

causal

RicardoSmith

cyclopath2001 wrote:

There's two sides to every story.

Yes but your making up one side of it, and making a judgement call based on that. Very fair.

Hotblack Desiato

RicardoSmith wrote:

Its amusing how many choose to ignore the story as given, and make up an imaginary excuse to justify the biker causing criminal damage. Because to some the car driver is always at fault, regardless of the situation.

Who is saying that?
On the contrary several people have said that nothing can excuse the biker's damage to the car.

Like Jamesobrady said. Always assume the guy in front is a mindless manic and you'll avoid a lot of potential situations. If you don't and get caught with your ass in the breeze then you've only got yourself to blame.

OK but let's turn that around. Did the car driver take sufficient care to check that there were no "mindless maniacs" coming up from behind? From what he himself said (in subsequent posts) it appears not. In his own interest - because no-one wants to get involved in an accident - he should have checked more carefully.

For every bad car driver story theres a bad biker story. Ditto pedestrians cyclists etc.

At least the bad pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists are only likely to damage the car they hit, not its occupants.
Pity that doesn't work the other way around.

jman0

pwd wrote:

I used to ride a push bike in dublin. One person nearly took me away twice changing lanes without looking. I cycled after them for a reasonable distance. caught them in a traffic jam. smashed their mirror. cycled off.
Maybe a case of mistaken identity in your case or maybe you weren't as cautious as you let on.

Fair play to you, I hate these fecking motorists they behave as if cyclists have no rights and the gards are useless.

DubTony

causal wrote:

Firstly: It's not lunatic to filter - it's perfectly legal.
Secondly: In slow moving traffic bikes don't have to weave in and out - just stay along the white line and filter.

Legal or not, anytime a roaduser decides to drive outside of the dedicated traffic lanes, he's taking a chance. And driving along the white line is not driving in a dedicated traffic lane.

Saying that bikes don't have to weave in and out is irrelevant. A large amount of bikers do. Surely safe driving means not taking chances and doing the safe thing all the time.

Tony

seamus

DubTony wrote:

Saying that bikes don't have to weave in and out is irrelevant. A large amount of bikers do. Surely safe driving means not taking chances and doing the safe thing all the time.

Driving is essentially one big game of risk. How much risk you're willing to take all depends on your own level of acceptable risk. The law determines the limits of this risk, inside this, you should be able to drive safely, while still taking risks. Every time a vehicle changes lane, speeds up, turns a corner, stops at a light, there're taking a certain amount of risk.

God, wouldn't life be awful boring if we all did the lowest risk things all the time?

RicardoSmith

ninja900 wrote:

Who is saying that?
On the contrary several people have said that nothing can excuse the biker's damage to the car.

I quoted the comments that were appropriate. Quoting my comments without those quotes is quoting me out of context. Whats the point of that, unless to support the illogical anti car rant.

The point being even the original poster did not know why the biker did it. So everything from the bikers viewpoint is made up and always in favor of the biker.

ninja900 wrote:

OK but let's turn that around. Did the car driver take sufficient care to check that there were no "mindless maniacs" coming up from behind? From what he himself said (in subsequent posts) it appears not. In his own interest - because no-one wants to get involved in an accident - he should have checked more carefully.

This for example. Is once more in the bikers favour even though the orignal poster was willing to accept that its not impossible that it could have been in response to something he had done. It could equally have been just malicious.

The idiot coming behind has a greater responsibility to watch ahead than the guy in front to look back. Espeically in the case of bikers who should know they are hard to see, especially when looking backwards.

ninja900 wrote:

At least the bad pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists are only likely to damage the car they hit, not its occupants.
Pity that doesn't work the other way around.

Once again anti car rant.

I could equally say when a truck hits a car that the car is likely to be worse off. Or when a biker hits a pedestrian, small child or a pram. Pity its not the otherway around. But that is a stupid comment.

Its called the laws of physics.

RicardoSmith

seamus wrote:

Driving is essentially one big game of risk. How much risk you're willing to take all depends on your own level of acceptable risk. The law determines the limits of this risk, inside this, you should be able to drive safely, while still taking risks. Every time a vehicle changes lane, speeds up, turns a corner, stops at a light, there're taking a certain amount of risk.

God, wouldn't life be awful boring if we all did the lowest risk things all the time?

Are you suggesting taking risks with other peoples lives is too exciting to resist?

DubTony

seamus wrote:

God, wouldn't life be awful boring if we all did the lowest risk things all the time?

Sure would. But maybe we shouldn't do the risky things on the country's roads.

Tony

seamus

RicardoSmith wrote:

Are you suggesting taking risks with other peoples lives is too exciting to resist?

Nope, just pointing out that saying "Everything would be OK if no-one took risks" is pointless.

RicardoSmith

seamus wrote:

Nope, just pointing out that saying "Everything would be OK if no-one took risks" is pointless.

I think the point is if you break the rules and get creamed you've got to take some of the responsibility. Driving betweens lanes of heavy traffic is asking for a tank slapper.

Hotblack Desiato

RicardoSmith wrote:

I quoted the comments that were appropriate. Quoting my comments without those quotes is quoting me out of context.

Bull. You quoted nothing and I snipped nothing. I included every word of your post.

RicardoSmith wrote:

Whats the point of that, unless to support the illogical anti car rant.

You appear to be the only one ranting.

RicardoSmith wrote:

The point being even the original poster did not know why the biker did it.

Not initially, no. He seemed to agree later that one quick glance in a mirror is not sufficient, and therefore he could have cut up the bike.

RicardoSmith wrote:

So everything from the bikers viewpoint is made up and always in favor of the biker.

So you keep saying. Getting pretty boring at this stage mate.

RicardoSmith wrote:

It could equally have been just malicious.

I think you've been watching too many 1950's motorcycle gang movies. Get a grip.

RicardoSmith wrote:

The idiot coming behind has a greater responsibility to watch ahead than the guy in front to look back.

Not according to the rules of the road, or the law.

Hotblack Desiato

RicardoSmith wrote:

I think the point is if you break the rules and get creamed you've got to take some of the responsibility.

Filtering is legal.

RicardoSmith wrote:

Driving betweens lanes of heavy traffic is asking for a tank slapper.

Riding between lanes of stopped or slow moving heavy traffic is safe if done with care and at a sensible speed.