Put up or shut up

Villain

Mr McDowell has said this evening that he believed Leading members of the IRA were household names who appeared on television.

So Minister it's time you put up or shut up, you are the Minister for Justice so lets have these people arrested for been members of the IRA.

Gerry Adams this evening challenged Bertie Ahern to have him or arrested for conspiring to the theft of the Northern Bank robbery or withdraw his accusation that the leaders of SF knew about the bank robbery.

So come on Bertie and Michael lets see if your willing to put your evidence to the test of our justice system, otherwise withdraw your accusations.

Cork

The Taoiseach of this country has already had demands from particuler individuals with regard to the early release of Gerry McCabes killers.

I think An Taoiseach should indeed name these individuals and the nature of demands made.

We all know the record of SF/IRA over 35 years. Let SF/IRA let us know the exact connection between these "2 organisations".

To date, SF has not clarified this.

Speaking on RTÉ radio's 'This Week' programme, Ms Harney said: "Some of the Oireachtas members, I understand, sit on the army council."

When asked what members she was referring to, she replied: "I understand Deputy Ferris may well be a member of the army council, but that's a question you should put to him."

But let SF and their buddies let us know the membership of the army council over the last 35 years and stop trying to play the victim.

People are begining to see thru their little act.

A Dub in Glasgo

They certainly will not put up and they certainly will not shut up. Apparantly, it is the way of democracy.

solas

looks like they are playing SF at their own game, interesting story developing.

Cork

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

They certainly will not put up and they certainly will not shut up. Apparantly, it is the way of democracy.

Better democracy than having a ballot box in one hand and an armalite in the other.

It is about time the IRA put up their weapons and decommissioned.

But they seem for some reason to be opposed to a no criminality clause.

But Bertie should name members of the IRA army council. I think people have a right to know.

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

They certainly will not put up and they certainly will not shut up. Apparantly, it is the way of democracy.

Yeah, and Sinn Fein/IRAs way of democracy is either to shoot up / blow up, or else to have the threat to shoot up / blow up.

Nuttzz

Bertie or McDowell cant order the arrest of anyone, arrests are operational matters for the police forces, our government ministers dont order arrests.

A Dub in Glasgo

But they can publically declare who is on the Army Council of an illegal group without offering any evidence or show that they have notified the proper authorities

true

In Ed Moloneys book on the IRA it stated Adams and Mitch. were on the army council.
Did they sue? No.

Who was brought over for secret peace talks to London in the seventies? Adams. Who was leader of the boys ( IRA) in Long Kesh in the early seventies .... guess who.

Why does Adams not sue Bertie or Blair or IMC now? He knows he is guilty. It was almost laughable to see his performance this evening.

gurramok

A book does not convict.
He should be arrested, put on trial and convicted.
Why has this not happened ?

Zombrex

Bertie has always known who was on the IRA army councel, the army give him an intelligence report on the IRA twice a year detailing the leader ship of the IRA. Bertie is pissed off now, and rightly so, because the IRA and Sinn Fein are lying in public about not knowing anything about the robbery, when it is clear to Bertie and the government that they did know about it. The intelligence services know exactly what goes on. They aren't stupid. Naturally this is pissing of Bertie as it would piss of any loyal Irish man. So do you blame him for hinting that he knows exactly the game Sinn Fein are playing. Adams knows too well that he won't be arrested, they would never get anything to stick in court.

I have no idea why people are taking Sinn Feins side in this, it is not like they are a honourable group of fellas. I suppose the same could be said for FF, but by God I will believe my own government, and my own army and intelligence services over the word of a group who can't even bring themselves to say that killing Guards is a crime.

Rant over ....

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Villain

So the Minister of Justice can't present the Garda commisioner with a book evidence on the leadership of the IRA, and ask him to arrest them on this evidence, yea right.

They don't have any evidence that would stand up in any court in this country.

Oh and the last time I looked Ed Moloney wasn't a Judge.

Nuttzz

irish1 wrote:

So the Minister of Justice can't present the Garda commisioner with a book evidence on the leadership of the IRA, and ask him to arrest them on this evidence, yea right.

Of course he cant, there is seperation between the government and the legal system otherwise it becomes a totalitarian state, would you like to see that?

Irish1 if someone wrote in a book that you were on the IRA army council when you were not would you not sue the author, if gerry and martin arent on the council why dont they do the same?

Johnny_the_fox

irish1 wrote:

They don't have any evidence that would stand up in any court in this country.

two points of interest... from both sides..

1. there is no evidence of the IRA's 3 Acts of decommission.. but we have to trust de Chastelain... and an ira statement... (the unionists and many others dont believe)

2. there is no evidence that the IRA and SF are linked and did the bank robbery.. but we have to trust IMC, PSNI/Gardai and both governments... (the hardline republicans and many others dont believe)

so what is left for the normal everyday people in the north.. ?? no assembly = water fees coming, increase of rates, increase of student fees... and lots more.

monument

irish1 wrote:

They don't have any evidence that would stand up in any court in this country.

There’s no need for that kind of nonsense when you have your very own kangaroo court.

Or did you mean not even in our kangaroo court?

sceptre

monument wrote:

There’s no need for that kind of nonsense when you have your very own kangaroo court.

Or did you mean not even in our kangaroo court?

"Our kangaroo court" (assuming you're referring to the SCC) would be considered to be part of "any court in this country". I think it's safe to assume that irish1 meant that.

Zombrex

irish1 wrote:

So the Minister of Justice can't present the Garda commisioner with a book evidence on the leadership of the IRA, and ask him to arrest them on this evidence, yea right.

They don't have any evidence that would stand up in any court in this country.

Oh and the last time I looked Ed Moloney wasn't a Judge.

Last time I looked the government weren't attempting to imprision or charge any member of SF with a crime. SF are the ones calling for evidence that would "stand up in court", which in my opinion only makes them look even more guilty and ridiculous.

What the government know is that the IRA carried out the robbery, and they know that leading member of Sinn Fein are in the IRA. But then again, most of N.I know this. It is not like it was much of a shock to anyone.

BuffyBot

There’s no need for that kind of nonsense when you have your very own kangaroo court.

Well now, seem as you mention kangaroo courts..

Victor

I wonder how Gerry **knows** the IRA wasn't involved.

BuffyBot wrote:

Well now, seem as you mention kangaroo courts..

Now, now. Gerry is **not** trying to get Bertie to reveal his hand so any potential Garda / Army source is revealed

billy the squid

Can members of the Oireacteas submit information to the Director of Public prosecutions.

and is hinting at who is and who is not on the army council through the media denying these people a fair trial should these same individuals be brought before the courts.

Victor

billy the squid wrote:

Can members of the Oireacteas submit information to the Director of Public prosecutions.

Anyone can submit, accepting it or using it is another matter.

and is hinting at who is and who is not on the army council through the media denying these people a fair trial should these same individuals be brought before the courts.

Theres a certain "dogs on the street" element to this.

Of course, is there the will, need or want to convict anyone of PIRA membership (whatever avout activities)?

arcadegame2004

irish1 wrote:

Mr McDowell has said this evening that he believed Leading members of the IRA were household names who appeared on television.

So Minister it's time you put up or shut up, you are the Minister for Justice so lets have these people arrested for been members of the IRA.

Gerry Adams this evening challenged Bertie Ahern to have him or arrested for conspiring to the theft of the Northern Bank robbery or withdraw his accusation that the leaders of SF knew about the bank robbery.

So come on Bertie and Michael lets see if your willing to put your evidence to the test of our justice system, otherwise withdraw your accusations.

I personally do not know sure whether the IRA had a hand in the Northern Bank robbery or not. I think it is the most likely probability, but I also feel that the fact that the hullabaloo over the supposed IRA spyring a few years ago led to a case which immediately collapsed when it came to court, together with the PSNI admission that they didn't find anything incriminating at the searches yesterday (or whenever they were at Beragh in Co.Tyrone etc.), together with the continued presence of hardline Unionists in the PSNI should give us some pause for thought. I would have thought that not coming from NI, Hugh Orde wouldn't come with the emotional and political backage that past Unionist RUC Chief Constables did. But I am uncertain.

However, what is not in doubt (except by the most gullable of SF fans) is that the IRA (and Loyalists) have continued their despicable punishment-beatings including kneecaping teenagers and people they accuse of being drug-dealers - and just innocent people whose only crime is criticising or falling out of favour with IRA/SF personalities. This IS criminality, whatever lingo SF comes up with the deny this or skirt around it. The denial by Mitchell McLaughlin and Mary Lou McDonald that the murder of Jean McConville was a crime is among the most outrageous and scandalous statements I have ever heard from Irish politicians - and THAT's saying something.

SF demand "evidence" be produced of the IRA's guilt. Yet they must surely know that if that was done, then a future court case could be stopped by a judge who would claim that the case had been "prejudiced" by the publicity surrounding evidence. Also, releasing it could put the lives in informants in danger (a possible reason why the IRA wants the evidence to be revealed). So it is ludicrous to demand detailed evidence to be released. Even so, the British Government should give some broad hints about the nature of the evidence, in so far as is compatible with protecting intelligence sources.

In most democracies, the executive does not order the arrest of persons. Remember that is what went on in Nazi Germany/Fascist Italy/Communist countries. That is for the police to do. I don't doubt that there is a party political element in the criticism of SF, but that doesn't mean the substance of the allegations are untrue.

Villain

So if the Minister For Justice has information that could lead to an arrest he shouldn't give it to the Gardai so THEY can decide whether or not to arrest???

Thats basically what your saying, If I have evidence that showed who were the leaders of an ILLEGAL organisation I would feel obliged to go to the Gardai, I accept it is up to them to decide whether or not to act on that info.

But if McDowell and Berite have the evidence they claim to have they should present it to the Gardai, and let them decide whether or not to act on it.

Sparks

irish1 wrote:

But if McDowell and Berite have the evidence they claim to have they should present it to the Gardai, and let them decide whether or not to act on it.

That's informing against them, not arresting them or directing the Gardai to arrest them. The difference being that it's the Gardai and the DPP who decide if a case is to be brought, thus ensuring the seperation of powers...
(That's rather a basic thing to have to rehash, btw).

Villain

Sparks wrote:

That's informing against them, not arresting them or directing the Gardai to arrest them. The difference being that it's the Gardai and the DPP who decide if a case is to be brought, thus ensuring the seperation of powers...
(That's rather a basic thing to have to rehash, btw).

So you do you believe that Bertie and McDowell should present the evidence they have that shows the leadership of the IRA had prior knowledge of the Northern Bank Roberry to the Gardai. Then the Gardai can decide whether they is enough evidence to arrest Gerry and other members of the leadership with Conspiring to robbery.

Sparks

irish1 wrote:

So you do you believe that Bertie and McDowell should present the evidence they have that shows the leadership of the IRA had prior knowledge of the Northern Bank Roberry to the Gardai. Then the Gardai can decide whether they is enough evidence to arrest Gerry and other members of the leadership with Conspiring to robbery.

Well, it boils down to one question: do you want the peace process to continue?
If yes, then no, they shouldn't. If no, then yes they should - because you arrest McGuinness and Adams and throw them in jail, and before the week's out, you'll have armed thugs terrorising and bombing people all over the island and probably the mainland UK inside a month. It's blackmail of a sort, but pragmatically if you want to avoid bloodshed, you can't lock them up.

And, much as I'd like to see it done, I'd rather not see more dissappeared being added to the list and more people up there being shot and blown to small pieces, so I'd have to say no, they shouldn't request the Gardai and DPP investigate further. I'm saying it through gritted teeth, mind.

Villain

Sparks wrote:

Well, it boils down to one question: do you want the peace process to continue?
If yes, then no, they shouldn't. If no, then yes they should - because you arrest McGuinness and Adams and throw them in jail, and before the week's out, you'll have armed thugs terrorising and bombing people all over the island and probably the mainland UK inside a month. It's blackmail of a sort, but pragmatically if you want to avoid bloodshed, you can't lock them up.

And, much as I'd like to see it done, I'd rather not see more dissappeared being added to the list and more people up there being shot and blown to small pieces, so I'd have to say no, they shouldn't request the Gardai and DPP investigate further. I'm saying it through gritted teeth, mind.

So would you not then also agree that Bertie and McDowell should stop accusing these men of such on the national airways??

irish1

irish1 wrote:

So would you not then also agree that Bertie and McDowell should stop accusing these men of such on the national airways??

Reading Spark's post,I dont even see why you would ask him such a question.

Sparks has said he believes if Republican leaders were locked up... violence aka bombing and shooting by a minority would break out again.
He believes Ahern and McDowell believe likewise.

Sparks in common with most of our politicians who represent most of our people is in effect giving a damning indictment here on what they see as blackmail.

The only reason why Ahern is accusing the Republican leaders of duplicity etc in public now is that he's quite visibly disgusted at being in his view taken for a fool during the pre Xmas negotiations by the Republican leadership.

It would appear in the interests of pragmatism and the hope of a final settlement (including the end of criminality from "Republicans") that he gave the republican leadership a long string prior to this with respect to smaller outbreaks of criminality and they've broken it in his eyes with the 26 million pound robbery.

As a contributer to Vincent Brownes programme on Radio one said last night when asked why he thought Adams and McGuinnes aren't sue-ing for slander.. " it's because to have a reasonable chance of being sucessfull the allegations have to be untrue..."

Stabshauptmann

true wrote:

In Ed Moloneys book on the IRA it stated Adams and Mitch. were on the army council.

true wrote:

I would not believe everything in "A secret history of the IRA".

HERE]

HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY *

Your double standards true is one of your biggest failings and is why reasonable debate with you is so fruitless.

Who was leader of the boys ( IRA) in Long Kesh in the early seventies .... guess who.

You might want to read a secret history of the IRA rather than repeat what you think is in it. Adams was not OC in Long Kesh, at the time he was out of favour with the leadership

Why does Adams not sue Bertie or Blair or IMC now? He knows he is guilty. It was almost laughable to see his performance this evening.

HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY *

I offered the same argument to you re: why didn’t the British government or Security forces or even the relatives of Jean McConville sue Ed Moloney for what he wrote in his book.

I’m not going to go down that road again with what happened to Jean McConville, you, oscar bravo and I discussed it as far as we could but I think it is ridiculous that you now offer the EXACT same logic as you rejected now that it supports your views.

Zombrex

irish1 wrote:

So you do you believe that Bertie and McDowell should present the evidence they have that shows the leadership of the IRA had prior knowledge of the Northern Bank Roberry to the Gardai. Then the Gardai can decide whether they is enough evidence to arrest Gerry and other members of the leadership with Conspiring to robbery.

Are you serious?

The information Bertie gets about the IRA is from military intelligence... yeah it would be a really good idea for that network of national security to be dragged through the courts trying to convict Gerry Adams of membership, something Bertie has probably known all along.

As I have said before the only people who seem to want Gerry Adams arrested are Sinn Fein. Bertie doesnt need or want to have Adams arrested. He just wants SF to stop lying about the bank robbery.

Stabshauptmann

irish1 wrote:

Mr McDowell has said this evening that he believed Leading members of the IRA were household names who appeared on television.

So Minister it's time you put up or shut up, you are the Minister for Justice so lets have these people arrested for been members of the IRA.

He said he believes it. I believe in a divine power and I offer no proof, respect my belief.

Gerry Adams this evening challenged Bertie Ahern to have him or arrested for conspiring to the theft of the Northern Bank robbery or withdraw his accusation that the leaders of SF knew about the bank robbery.

That’s why I despise Adams, how he can use a crisis like this as a bit of electioneering. Bertie has too much respect for the peace process to arrest Adams (pity that respect isn’t shared). Arresting SF persons will only benefit the party come elections

So come on Bertie and Michael lets see if your willing to put your evidence to the test of our justice system, otherwise withdraw your accusations.

Under Irish Law the testimony of a Garda super intendant is enough to guarantee a conviction for membership of an illegal organisation. If Bertie wanted them in jail, or if that would serve any good then it could quite easily be done.
On the specific charge of sanctioning the robbery, if Adams did, that’s not exactly a crime the DPP can prosecute. It’s another jurisdiction for a start and secondly, so what. Adams hasn’t been accused of directing the bank robbery.
As it stands Bertie hasn’t even committed a tort (privileges of office) so Adams can’t even take a civil case against him, though I doubt he'd want to.

Hairy Homer

Wicknight wrote:

The intelligence services know exactly what goes on. They aren't stupid.

No. But they think we all are. And in the case of anybody gullible enough to believe that the phrase 'intelligence reports' is a synonym for 'facts', they're probably right.

Four words: weapons of mass destruction.


I am no fan of the IRA and no supporter of Sinn Fein. And I do think that it's high time the leadership of the 'republican movement' (their exact synonym for the Unionist title Sinn Fein/IRA) were made to come clean about the makeup of all parts of its movement and who does what role. I have seen some people call for a 'Justice and Truth Commission' along the lines of the South African model to address this, and I think it's a good idea.

But it's a very dangerous precedent for the politicians of a democracy to make allegations like this without proper judicially verified evidence.

Worst case scenario: what if it wasn't the IRA who did the bank job? What if it were a group of republican dissidents? What if it were, perish the thought, a dirty tricks operation by some or other branch of the British 'intelligence services'?

I'm not saying it was. I don't have any evidence. But if our leaders can be shown to have baldly lied and expect to get away with it, that doesn't bode well for anybody's civil rights.

I'm not thinking of the poor old provies civil rights. I'm thinking ultimately of my own.


There's a great passage in the play 'A man for all seasons' based on the life of Thomas More which puts the point much better than I can:

Roper So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!

More Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

Roper I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

More Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you - where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast - man's laws, not God's - and if you cut them down - and you're just the man to do it - d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.

Stabshauptmann

irish1 wrote:

So if the Minister For Justice has information that could lead to an arrest he shouldn't give it to the Gardai so THEY can decide whether or not to arrest???

Because the Gardaí gave it to him, its not pass the friggin parcel.

Thats basically what your saying, If I have evidence that showed who were the leaders of an ILLEGAL organisation I would feel obliged to go to the Gardai, I accept it is up to them to decide whether or not to act on that info.

The charge isnt directing terrorism, a very serious and hard to prove charge, but an allegation that they negotiated in bad faith, ie knew something was going to happen. Adams and McGuninnes may or may not have been there when the IRA army council voted to "resume operational readiness" after the collapse of talks in Hillsburragh but it is unimaginable that they would not have seen the activities in their own constituencies or that the IRA would have left them uninformed.

But if McDowell and Berite have the evidence they claim to have they should present it to the Gardai, and let them decide whether or not to act on it.

AFAIK negotiating in bad faith isn a criminal offence.

Villain

I believe he could still be arrested for conspiring to theft, and if he was on the IRA army council he could also be charged with directing terrorism.

So people here believe that Bertie should not present the evidence he has to the gardai, interesting!

So he should continue to throw accusations around but not give the Gardai information that could lead to an arrest.

LOL you really should think about what your saying, imagine there was a huge robbery in dublin last night by a criminal gang (like the €250,000 robbed from an post last month) and Bertie stated that he knew people who had prior knowledge of this, but wouldn't give this information to the gardai because the gang would go out and kill people etc!!!

Law and order and Due process should be applied in all situations.

Stabshauptmann

irish1 wrote:

I believe he could still be arrested for conspiring to theft, and if he was on the IRA army council he could also be charged with directing terrorism.

But thats not what Bertie said, he said they had prior knowledge, he didnt say this was because they were on the army council, hence they knew but not neccessarily had any hand in it thus cannot be charged with directing terrorism or conspiracy to theft

So people here believe that Bertie should not present the evidence he has to the gardai, interesting!

"There are four lights"
Open your eyes and actually read what has been written. The Gardaí have the evidence, they gave it to bertie and its up to them what they do with it. Its also low, dispicable, cowardly and selfish the wat Adams is going on electioneering from all this.

So he should continue to throw accusations around but not give the Gardai information that could lead to an arrest.

What purpose would an arrest serve?

LOL you really should think about what your saying, imagine there was a huge robbery in dublin last night by a criminal gang (like the €250,000 robbed from an post last month) and Bertie stated that he knew people who had prior knowledge of this, but wouldn't give this information to the gardai because the gang would go out and kill people etc!!!

You are lauging at the idea of people dying? You're sick.

Law and order and Due process should be apllied in all situations.

Yes, of course, but there is no charge being made against Adams, so whats the point in going to court, SF just wants some PR victories.

Bertie said Adams and crew had prior knowledge, thus they negotiated in bad faith. Its a huge leap to say bertie accused adams of organising the robery. And while it is widly felt that Adams is on the army council, bertie didnt say that.

You are just looking for crimes adams didnt commit

Necromancer

Necromancer wrote:

I’m not going to go down that road again with what happened to Jean McConville, you, oscar bravo and I discussed it as far as we could but I think it is ridiculous that you now offer the EXACT same logic as you rejected now that it supports your views.

Agreed.
I have to say if one is going to be making points here, the least one should expect is to be making them consistantly across posts and threads.
IE-not saying one thing in one thread and something different in another that conflicts with the point you made in the previous thread.

The problem here is if I stood up and said in public that one of my local T.D's was involved with a criminal gang(all my T.D's are either from the top 3 parties and then Mildred Fox) if I said it in the print media, if a national newspaper said it... I would expect law suits to be happening quickly.
Why is this is not happening in the case of SF? and why are virtually all T.D's many of them poll toppers and senators representing the vast majority of the people of this country all singing off the same hymn sheet? ie that SF are inextricably linked with criminal gangs?

It's a bit early to be saying theres an election coming up-realisticlly thats more than 2 yrs away-its way too early to be slinging mud for that as theres too much time for a counter case to be put in front of the public.
The counter case would or should involve a suit against slander by the way.

irish1 wrote:

LOL you really should think about what your saying, imagine there was a huge robbery in dublin last night by a criminal gang (like the €250,000 robbed from an post last month) and Bertie stated that he knew people who had prior knowledge of this, but wouldn't give this information to the gardai because the gang would go out and kill people etc!!!

Would that gang be involved in politics though? Doesnt the Taoiseach of this country have the right to inform his people of any information regarding that? Certainly people should be told and would the case you mention be people with an arsenal of semtex ready to mass murder innocent fellow human beings in these islands?
Would they be negotiating the removal of said bombs and their criminal activity while at the same time planning the biggest ever heist on this island?

Bertie wouldnt have to shop them as action would already be taken in their regard because they wouldn't be threatening mass mahem nor would they be capable of it.
I'm sure there are plenty of non IRA robbers in prison at the moment....

The fact that you LoL at this, the fact that you laugh out loud at this serious matter doesnt bode too well ...

Villain

Necromancer wrote:

You are lauging at the idea of people dying? You're sick.

No I was luagHing at peoples views, and you knew well thats what I was laughing at, don't be so childish.

As for the rest of your post, well Bertie said Adams knew about the robbery so therfore I believe legally he could be arrested. The gardai have some evidence, Bertie said he also had evidence from the PSNI.

If Gerry Adams is on the IRA army council and the IRA carried out the robbery he should be arrested and I honestly believe that, let him have his day in court and punish him if he's found guilty.

McDowell says he knows whos on the Army Council, Mary Harney said Martin Ferris is on it, but the Taoiseach said in the Dail recently that he didn't know who was on it!!. They seem to be a little confused.

Lets use the Justice System and sort the truth from the bulls**t.

Villain

Just because someone doesn't take a libel case, doesn't mean it's true, proof is needed for it to be true.

Stabshauptmann

Childish, its what you wrote.

irish1 wrote:

LOL you really should think about what your saying, imagine there was a huge robbery in dublin last night by a criminal gang (like the €250,000 robbed from an post last month) and Bertie stated that he knew people who had prior knowledge of this, but wouldn't give this information to the gardai because the gang would go out and kill people etc!!!

Law and order and Due process should be applied in all situations.

You say VERY CLEARLY that the idea that a gang would blackmail the Taoiseach with the threat of violence and death makes you laugh!

Or is it that such a situation is so incredulous to you that the possibility makes you laugh? In that case you are just ignorant of the world in which you live, that situation is a common occurance.

Stabshauptmann

So, are you sick or ignorant?

pablo321

I agree...

Arrest them, produce some evidence, not just theories and shadowy "inteligence". Otherwise "Shut up" (said to the politicians, not us guys who should discuss it forever)...

I think Bertie is well out of line and let his personnel opinions get int the way of whats best for a lasting peace.

The problem with the north peace process is there is too much talking to the press from all sides.

They should have a gag order on everyone participating. I think they'd get a lot more done.

Pablo

Stabshauptmann

pablo321 wrote:

I think Bertie is well out of line and let his personnel opinions get int the way of whats best for a lasting peace.

That is one of the most ignorant statements Ive heard this week (I only keep count on a weekly basis )
Have you even the slightest understanding of the personal, political and proffesional sacrifices and compomises Bertie has made to keep the process going. When SF accused Bertie in the Dail of electioneer with Norther Bank robery, he illustrated crystal clearly how it is SF who is using this as a PR exercise.

Villain

Necromancer wrote:

So, are you sick or ignorant?

I am neither, i was laughing at the logic of people, that justice should be ignored because of fear!

Stabshauptmann

irish1 wrote:

I am neither, i was laughing at the logic of people, that justice should be ignored because of fear!

Oh, ok.
So you agree that such threats exist and condemn such threads as undemocratic, counter productive and immoral. Good.

That people would acquiesce to threats in your opinion is laughable. Then why might I ask did the IRA wage a 30 year war of violence if not to force the British to acquiesce?

Villain

Necromancer wrote:

Oh, ok.
So you agree that such threats exist and condemn such threads as undemocratic, counter productive and immoral. Good.

I certainly do.

Necromancer wrote:

That people would acquiesce to threats in your opinion is laughable. Then why might I ask did the IRA wage a 30 year war of violence if not to force the British to acquiesce?

You'd really have to ask the IRA that, I'm just a SF voter, not even a member

pablo321

pablo321 wrote:

I think Bertie is well out of line and let his personnel opinions get int the way of whats best for a lasting peace.

You think most the other T.D's across parties in the Dáil representing most of the people of this country are out of line aswell? After all they all sponsored the same motion in the Dáil the other day...

They would disagree with you that sweeping under the carpet the fact that certain people had to their knowledge been privy to the planning of a 26 million pound robbery is in the interests of peace.

So theres a massive volcano of opinion besides that of Ahern involved here and thats why the Republican leadership should sue and get damages like any other innocent party...
That would clear up the matter once and for all.
But then as the person on V Browne said last night , he thinks they are not doing that because for a slander trial to be sucessfull " the allegations have to be untrue..."

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

Just because someone doesn't take a libel case, doesn't mean it's true, proof is needed for it to be true.

That's not strictly the case. All that is needed for it to be true is that it be, um, true. For example: "I have dark hair." I haven't provided any proof for that statement. Does that mean it's not true?

Stabshauptmann

irish1 wrote:

I certainly do.



You'd really have to ask the IRA that, I'm just a SF voter, not even a member

No, your not out of it that easily, there is a flaw in your lolgic either hammer out that flaw or abondon the logic:

Was the IRAs campaign in your opinion so ludicrous in its design and aim as to make you laugh? I.E the notion that armed struggle would acomplish anything is totally idiotic.

You say your vote SF, that is to say you argree with their aims, views and tactics. SF is an integral part of the republican movement, while dedicated to stricly democratic means, respects and acknowledges the achievements of the IRA and does not catagorically believe that one should give up the right to armed struggle.

So, you can see how that party line is in contrast to the logic you used?

Please give an answer to each of the questions in bold. Thank you.

oscarBravo

Victor wrote:

I wonder how Gerry **knows** the IRA wasn't involved.

Gerry just knows stuff. Sure, didn't he know that the IRA weren't involved in the Adare robbery?

Stabshauptmann

Just thought Id point out a few things about Defamation.

The following things must be shown for an action in defamation to be supported;
a statement was made about you expressly or by implication in such a way as to be understood by others as referring to you.
it was published to a third party
the statement must be likely to lower you in the eyes of right thinking persons

Ok so those are all met.

Defences offered for defamation:
Justification
Fair Comment
Absolute Privilege
Qualified Privilege
Consent

lets just skip down to the second one:

Fair Comment defence Must show:
The statement was one of opinion
It is based on facts available to the public (if the facts are not available to the public then they must be set out in the statement). The facts must be substantially true.
The comment must be fair i.e. honestly held and without malice.
The comment must be on a matter of public interest

Since bertie wasnt in the Dail at the exact time he said it we skip absolute privilage and go to qualified privilage:

When a statement is “fairly made by a person in the discharge of some public or private duty whether legal or moral or in the conduct of his own affairs, in matters where his interest is concerned.”

Bertie has an air tight defence. The allegation that Adams is on the army council, true or false, has been in the public domain for years.