Irish Fanatics

bbbaldy

Picture this;

Case 1:
A montisory school in Connamara. Most kids attending this school are bi-lingual (Irish/English). Becouse of complaints from parents the class is split in two Irish speakers only in one part and Bi-lingual in another. One particular child had to be moved out of the Irish only side becouse of further complaints from parents (it was reported that the child spoke english sometimes).

Case 2:
Block of apartments built in a connamara village by a private contractor.
A condition of the planning permission was that most of the purchasers had to prove that they are Irish speakers or they are not allowed to buy.

In my opinion this carry on is discriminatory, elitist and racist.
These knuckle heads are in charge of promoting our language, I say shame on them, they are the reason that our beautifull language has declined.

jhegarty

bbbaldy wrote:

Case 2:
Block of apartments built in a connamara village by a private contractor.
A condition of the planning permission was that most of the purchasers had to prove that they are Irish speakers or they are not allowed to buy.

they had to drop the price on those from (i think) 295,000 to 260,000... becuase no one wanted them...

they have to have an irish speaker in them for the next 10 years...

still no one has applied for the irish test for them.....

true

Its a dead old language. The proof of something is the market place. I have yet to see an Irish language magazine or newspaper in a newsagents. In all my years, I have never heard anyone speaking Irish except on RTE and at school. And yet all this money is wasted on the language the whole time.

abccormac

Foinse (irish language newspaper) is widely available

Johnny_the_fox

true wrote:

Its a dead old language. The proof of something is the market place. I have yet to see an Irish language magazine or newspaper in a newsagents. In all my years, I have never heard anyone speaking Irish except on RTE and at school. And yet all this money is wasted on the language the whole time.

There is quite a few irish language magazines out there.. you just have to open your eyes. An tUltach and Comhar (was another one - does it still exist?).

In the University of Ulster (Coleraine Campus) - IIRC 40+ students started first year there (2004), so it is petty strong up north here.

mike65

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

In the University of Ulster (Coleraine Campus) - IIRC 40+ students started first year there (2004), so it is petty strong up north here.

I bet some of them are making a particular political/cultural point.

Mike.

Johnny_the_fox

I think they are making a social point.. like most students. (e.g. drink)

true

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

I think they are making a social point.. like most students. (e.g. drink)

Its about all they will find Irish good for - chatting to themselves while drunk.

On the subject of magazines, I have been in newsagents probably about 15,000 times in my life and bought tens of thousands of various different magazines and newspapers over the years , but I never saw an Irish one or heard anyone talking in Irish, never mind saw anyone buying an Irish language publication. Maybe I have just a grudge against the language as it was beat in to me at school. Not to mention the unfair system of needing Irish to pass the leaving in them far away days.

gom

Hi folks

While I fully support the promotion of Gaeilge as a language I am not in anyway positive about the current teaching methods or language policies that are justified by the government and various interest groups as necessary to promote Gaeilge. In many ways government policy is too weak and school based policy is miss directed.
I'd like also to state that I changed my name last october by deed poll to its Gaeilge version, e.g. "Graham Mooney" became "Graham Ó Maonaigh". Not that it proves anything.

This very night I almost found myself needing to fight a motion that was presented to Trinity College Students Union by its Irish officer and Deputy President.
The wording of the motion to the Student Union is as follows:

1. Proposal for Schedule 13
The aim of this policy is to support the use of the Irish language in the
Students’ Union, in Trinity, and generally. The Union believes that the rights
of Irish-speakers must be upheld and promoted in all Union activities, and
thus hereby recognises the Irish language, English language, and Irish Sign
Language (ISL) as official languages of the Students’ Union.
1. The Union shall ensure that:
(a) Every permanent sign purchased by the Union will be bilingual
(b) Temporary signs/posters shall be bilingual as far as possible
(c) All union forms and documents will be available in both languages
(d) Union staff & officers will be encouraged to initiate communication with
students and the general public in Irish (e.g. bilingual telephone greetings,
etc.)
(e) communications with College be in Irish where feasible, in particular
following from the implementation of the Official Languages Act
(f) All sabbatical officers take responsibility for implementing this policy
within their own remit, subject to the advice and guidance of the Executive
and Oifigeach na Gaeilge
2. The Union shall campaign for:
(a) full compliance by the College with the Official Languages Act
(b) the encouragement of the use of the Irish language among students and
staff
(c) more Irish classes to be made available, and better promoted
(d) the increased use of Irish in College publications
(e) the rights of Irish speakers, nationally and locally, to communicate
through the language of their choice
3. The use of the Irish language at Council meetings shall be encouraged and
supported, provided that written motions are provided in both Irish and
English. In accordance with Schedule 11, the use of ISL (Irish Sign
Language) will continue to be promoted at Council meetings.
Proposed: Kevin O’Brien, Oifigeach na Gaeilge
Seconded: Ruth Ní Eidhin, Deputy President

Taken from TCD statistics website

Of the 15,511 students registered in 2002/03:
87% were Irish
7% were European (EU)
3% were North or Central American
3% were from other parts of the world

Therefore we can take that there was 13,495 Irish-nationality students in Trinity College in 2002/2003.


The following information is taken from the CSO website

No Ability to Speak Irish in 2002 Census = 2,097,263
Ability to Speak Irish in 2002 Census = 1,570,894

Therefore, 57.17% of the Irish population that responed to the Census in 2002 have no ability to speak Irish

On this information we can deduce the following :

7,715 Irish TCD students have NO ability to speak Irish(based on CSO and TCD figures)
5,780 Irish TCD students have an ability to speak Irish(based on CSO and TCD figures)

So not only are Irish speakers a minority nationally, They only represent 37% of Trinity College Students which is roughly the exact same as the national figure and seen as the average age of a trinity student is much lower than the national average it is reasonible to assume that the figure of those with the ability to speak Irish ia actually less than 37% of the student population.

Sorry for all the crazy statistics. Essentially I support Gaeilge language promotion policies, but the Student Union of Trinity College is there to represent the students of TCD not the nation or asperations of SF, FF or any Gael Gaor societies.
The above motion could not be voted on by the Student Union council as it had not reached its quota. It will be put again to the SU council next week.

If this passes essentially this will act as a huge barrier to entry to non-Irish speakers and especially any one who is an international student.

Currently there is a candiadate running for election in the Student Union Sabbathical elections in Trinity College is an international student and is viewed by many as the favorite. If elected and the motion is passed at next SU council, he will have to learn Irish fast and speak in it as his primary language all because of some short sighted Gaeilge fanatics

P.s. Sorry Kev and Ruth. I'm not out to get either of you but this is a major issue

true

I have to agree with you there, Gom. Its way over the top. I think signs in two languages are distracting and ugly looking, especially when everyone just goes by the English writing anyway. And what about the extra cost of these signs, printing, leaflets, forms etc. What about the Irish students from N. Ireland who do not know any Irish? Some of them can already feel alienated enough as it is. Queens university went down this road some time ago and it was a big mistake. Its not the way to promote a language.

gurramok

Its a pity that there is no stat of those who spoke irish in their past, ie childhood at school.

Even through disastrous teaching methods, I used to speak a small bit of it but now all of it is forgotten ! (i'm not part of 37%)
If there ever was a resurgence, i would be all for it and learn that bit more to pick it up
It would be nice to have a language that helps gives us an identity in the eu like joe soap from finland uses finnish(random country picked)

gom

This section is the particularly strong wording which I am suprised to see so comprehensively drawn up is quoted below.

1. The Union shall ensure that:
(d) Union staff & officers will be encouraged to initiate communication with
students and the general public in Irish (e.g. bilingual telephone greetings,
etc.)
(e) communications with College be in Irish where feasible, in particular
following from the implementation of the Official Languages Act

The section in bold has the biggest and most immediate impact. Section 1.e is also an issue. Taking the wording as above facilitates anyone outside the Union but the union officer is expected to use Irish before English in all situations except where the other person does not wish to use Irish but only after the union officer has attempted to use Irish first...

Hairy Homer

mike65 wrote:

I bet some of them are making a particular political/cultural point.

Mike.

Quite a few Unionists and Loyalists have taken the time to learn Irish. Certainly Gusty Spence, leader of the UVF in the Maze prison when he was incarcerated there, had a fainne. And I believe the UUP's McGimpsey brothers have a cupla focail as well.


I take the point that many of the people who spoke Irish and tried to ram it down our throats have done more to turn people off the language than ecourage its use. But I still think we'd miss it if it went permanently.

true

There was a thread a couple of pages long about this. Was there any new information that suggests a change in viewpoint?

In my opinion this carry on is discriminatory, elitist and racist.

And in my opinion its not. To buy a IE domain name you have to show a legal right to the domain name and that your business has direct dealings with Ireland. This is an Irish domain. So, is that discriminatory, elitist and racist?

To live in Australia and the US pernamently there are a number of factors that you need to prove before you're allowed to settle in. Its not considered discriminatory, elitist or racist, so why should this?

No. Its not. Neither is this.

true wrote:

Its a dead old language. The proof of something is the market place. I have yet to see an Irish language magazine or newspaper in a newsagents. In all my years, I have never heard anyone speaking Irish except on RTE and at school. And yet all this money is wasted on the language the whole time.

Its not a dead language. Or are you going to tell me that my relatives from the area of Oughterard, don't speak Irish at all. Honestly, the only way I has to speak to them was my leaving cert Irish.

My Dad also did his college degree in Galway in Irish.

As for magazines, I have no idea. I don't look out for them.

regards the money wasted, I again disagree. Its part of our Irishness, and I'm proud that I have my own language. There's worse things in ireland that money is spent on in my views, but then again people would oppose my removing of the funding for them.

Thing is, I learnt German in school. I can't speak more than three words of it now. Should German be abolished also, because I don't have any use for it?

Gom wrote:

Therefore, 57.17% of the Irish population that responed to the Census in 2002 have no ability to speak Irish

i'd like to see how they determined that they have no Irish or what qualified someone as having the language.

I was brought up speaking Irish at home. Does that mean I'm fluent now? No. Its not part of my daily life, however, if i'm immersed in it for a few hours I can pick it up quite quickly.

Does that mean I can or can't speak Irish?

True wrote:

I think signs in two languages are distracting and ugly looking, especially when everyone just goes by the English writing anyway. And what about the extra cost of these signs, printing, leaflets, forms etc. What about the Irish students from N. Ireland who do not know any Irish? Some of them can already feel alienated enough as it is.

Signs. Go to Wales and you'll see the welsh language on sign posts. The same for Scotland. But everyone speaks english. Its part of our history to have Irish there, and I'd be inclined to leave it there.

N.Irish students. - Who cares? I don't that they don't understand Irish. They're the same as spanish, german or US students that come over here. There is no difference, and I don't see how they relate to the question at hand.

I take the point that many of the people who spoke Irish and tried to ram it down our throats have done more to turn people off the language than ecourage its use. But I still think we'd miss it if it went permanently.

exactly. It was rammed down our throats, and its done more bad than good. There's no use for it in Daily life, unless you're living in Gaelteacht areas.

And this is the point. This housing development was built in an Irish speaking community. It was not built in the middle of Tallaght. Its not likely to ever be applied to speaking areas. So its not, discriminatory, elitist or racist.

And I know I'd be disappointed with the Irish people if they removed the language completely. Otherwise what link do we have with our Irishness.....?

mike65

Of those who can speak Irish I wonder to what level they can and if they actually do so, the latter point is surely the most important.

Mike.

Of those who can speak Irish I wonder to what level they can and if they actually do so, the latter point is surely the most important.

Its an odd one. My whole family can speak Irish. They're all teachers, so they have to. Do they speak Irish at home? Nope. Not all all, but they can speak it.

however, if they go west to Galway, they're likely to speak irish with my relations. Some of these are quite old, and don't have more than a few words of English, and some will be fluent in both languages. I do know that the area my Dad is originally from the people will speak irish among their friends, and will be able to speak some english for bills or in the shops.

This is admittedly bogland area, with the closest shop being 10-15 miles away. Still Ireland though.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sand

There was a thread a couple of pages long about this. Was there any new information that suggests a change in viewpoint?

Yeah, I recall that thread - theres no new information to indicate a change in viewpoint for me at least. As I remember suggesting, the bigotry implied by the language test for the appartments would only harm the seller by limiting his demand. Im glad to hear - from Jhegarty - that the free (ish anyway) markets are again punishing bigotry, forcing the seller to drop his price from 295k to 260k apparently. Hurrah for capitalism.

Thing is, I learnt German in school. I can't speak more than three words of it now. Should German be abolished also, because I don't have any use for it?

Im sorry, when did German get installed as our national language absorping hundreds of millions that could be better spent on erradicating poverty in Ireland? I thought they lost the war?!?

Mind you, German is as about as widely spoken in Ireland as Irish so to answer your question - yeah!

I was brought up speaking Irish at home. Does that mean I'm fluent now? No. Its not part of my daily life, however, if i'm immersed in it for a few hours I can pick it up quite quickly.

A friend of mine is working in Switzerland - hes moved from basic german learned in night courses to being pretty much fluent in a few months of being immersed in it. The point being people can of course pick up languages if theyre part of their daily life. Irish is not part of anyones daily life outside of tiny, tiny parts of Ireland. If it was part of our daily lives it would require as much deliberate funding/promotion as the English language. My friend was also grateful that his command of German was not a factor in determining his right to enter, work or rent property in Switzerland as his first few months were extremely difficult.

And this is the point. This housing development was built in an Irish speaking community. It was not built in the middle of Tallaght. Its not likely to ever be applied to speaking areas. So its not, discriminatory, elitist or racist.

So, it would have been okay in say 1993 - before the sudden influx of asylum seekers that accompanied economic prosperity arose - to stipulate only people who could demonstrate they were of Irish descent could buy houses in some particular development because it was thought unlikely at that time that anyone of non-Irish descent would be interested in buying them?

If thats the case whats the rationale for the ban again? Stopping people from buying property they have little interest in buying?

true

Deleted User wrote:

And in my opinion its not. To buy a IE domain name you have to show a legal right to the domain name and that your business has direct dealings with Ireland. This is an Irish domain. So, is that discriminatory, elitist and racist?

To live in Australia and the US pernamently there are a number of factors that you need to prove before you're allowed to settle in. Its not considered discriminatory, elitist or racist, so why should this?

That is not relevant to forcing certain people in Trinity to speak and read words of Irish.

Deleted User wrote:

Its not a dead language. Or are you going to tell me that my relatives from the area of Oughterard, don't speak Irish at all. Honestly, the only way I has to speak to them was my leaving cert Irish.

My Dad also did his college degree in Galway in Irish.
As for magazines, I have no idea. I don't look out for them.

OK, it may not be dead, but it is 99.9% dead. If you dad did his college degree in Galway in Irish good for him. If he is an Irish teacher he will have a use for it, otherewise its as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
If you never noticed magazines, you will hardly have noticed that to all intents and purposes all magazines for sale in the country are English language, not Irish language.

Deleted User wrote:

regards the money wasted, I again disagree. Its part of our Irishness, and I'm proud that I have my own language. There's worse things in ireland that money is spent on in my views, but then again people would oppose my removing of the funding for them.

Thing is, I learnt German in school. I can't speak more than three words of it now. Should German be abolished also, because I don't have any use for it?

Its not part of my Irishness. I am proud I have my own language. The Americans and Australians are proud they have their own language as well. Its called English. Quite an asset to have when you go out in to the big, bad world, as your grandparents would know. Of the billions that has been spent on Irish, what is the worse thing billions has been spent on, do you know ?

As regards German, you must have a bad memory or a bad teacher to only remember three words of it. Very few Irish people know any German. On an Aer Lingus plane to Germany a few years ago I found even the Aer Lingus air hostess did not know any. We Irish are very bad at continental languages because such time and emphasis is put on Irish. We should spend more time and effort on French and German and less on Irish.

Deleted User wrote:

I was brought up speaking Irish at home. Does that mean I'm fluent now? No. Its not part of my daily life, however, if i'm immersed in it for a few hours I can pick it up quite quickly.

Does that mean I can or can't speak Irish?

To be honest, I do not care. You have a right to speak Irish if you want to, anywhere. Just dont insist on forcing it on everyone else so much, at their expense. And telling them its good for them.

Deleted User wrote:

Signs. Go to Wales and you'll see the welsh language on sign posts. The same for Scotland. But everyone speaks english. Its part of our history to have Irish there, and I'd be inclined to leave it there.

Agreed. But we dont need more bloody Irish.

Deleted User wrote:

N.Irish students. - Who cares? I don't that they don't understand Irish. They're the same as spanish, german or US students that come over here. There is no difference, and I don't see how they relate to the question at hand.

oooooh. Many people would not share your opinion that Northern Irish students are the same as spanish, german or US students that come over here. What about cherishing all children of the nation ? By discouraging certain section of the Northern community ( some of whom have come to Trinity over the years ) by new rules insisting on them being spoken to in Irish first etc etc ...its ridiculous. Compulsory new signs in Irish there would be a waste of money when people are on trolleys in hospital corridors, plus I think it would take away from a bit of Trinitys atmosphere / heritage / call it what you will. What suits Gallimbh / Galway may not suit Dublin in 2005.


One more point. Many peoples lives and careers were seriously fu..ed up in this country because they did not pass Irish in the leaving, and they had good enough grades in other subjects to get in to UCC, UCG, UCD etc. There was a silly law insisting people had to have a pass in Irish. Maybe its changed nowadays, but that was the position decades ago.

chewy

signs, shouldnt more (or alot of them) signs be symbols, internationaly recognised, and intuitive?

well done gom, i dunno is there ever a way to have SU's prevent committee members forcing through pet projects.

sand

sand wrote:

Im glad to hear - from Jhegarty - that the free (ish anyway) markets are again punishing bigotry, forcing the seller to drop his price from 295k to 260k apparently. Hurrah for capitalism.

Its no different than certain private schools having restrictions on the type of people that can attend, or the points system for Trinity. Its not bigotry, its just another part of capitalism. Money talks.

If there was no alternative to the property in the region, then yes, i'd tend to agree with you. But there are plenty of housing developments in the region to choose from.

Sand wrote:

Im sorry, when did German get installed as our national language absorping hundreds of millions that could be better spent on erradicating poverty in Ireland? I thought they lost the war?!?

My point being that there are a number of subjects that investment has been made into, that don't have a necessary function like maths. Irish is our national language, and as such deserves the investment as per our education system.

Regards the Gaelteacht, I'm in favour of its abolishment, since i don't think it serves any purpose now.

Sand wrote:

My friend was also grateful that his command of German was not a factor in determining his right to enter, work or rent property in Switzerland as his first few months were extremely difficult.

As far as i'm aware there is no requirement for a foreign national to know Irish to enter Ireland, work or rent property. The only exception is in regards to government jobs. Which makes sense, since they're representing the nation as part of their jobs.

Sand wrote:

So, it would have been okay in say 1993 - before the sudden influx of asylum seekers that accompanied economic prosperity arose - to stipulate only people who could demonstrate they were of Irish descent could buy houses in some particular development because it was thought unlikely at that time that anyone of non-Irish descent would be interested in buying them

Again you're blowing it out of proportion. This is not affecting Ireland as a whole. Its affecting a very small part of Galway. A single property investment. Not any large scale investment that excludes large numbers of individuals. If it was excluding large numbers of people over a decent area of territory, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But it doesn't. there are still plenty of developments in the area to choose from.

True wrote:

That is not relevant to forcing certain people in Trinity to speak and read words of Irish.

Actually if you had read it properly you would have seen it as being a reference to Irish in Ireland. My comments about Trinity came later.

True wrote:

OK, it may not be dead, but it is 99.9% dead. If you dad did his college degree in Galway in Irish good for him. If he is an Irish teacher he will have a use for it, otherewise its as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

99.9% dead? You joking? Even by Goms reference, 42.83 % of Irish people have some ability to speak Irish. Hardly a dead language. Just not a popular language.

true wrote:

Its not part of my Irishness. I am proud I have my own language.

Ok. But WHY are you proud of having your own language? What makes it different to being English or any other english speaking country?

true wrote:

Quite an asset to have when you go out in to the big, bad world, as your grandparents would know. Of the billions that has been spent on Irish, what is the worse thing billions has been spent on, do you know ?

has there really been Billions spent on the Irish language? Yikes. But to be honest I prefer money being spent of the Irish language than money being spent on Travellers. Difference of opinions as to where our tax money is spent.

As for the big bad world, I'm 27 hitting 28, and I've worked/lived abroad. I'm no stranger to other countries.

True wrote:

As regards German, you must have a bad memory or a bad teacher to only remember three words of it.

<shrug> Its ten years since my leaving cert, and I've been working 7 years of them. How many years since your leaving cert?

true wrote:

We Irish are very bad at continental languages because such time and emphasis is put on Irish. We should spend more time and effort on French and German and less on Irish.

Really? You have any proof of this?

True wrote:

To be honest, I do not care. You have a right to speak Irish if you want to, anywhere. Just dont insist on forcing it on everyone else so much, at their expense. And telling them its good for them.

you obviously didn't understand the quote.

regardless, to reply to yours, You have the right to not speak Irish. Just don't insist on trying to prevent everyone else from doing so, just because you're in the majority. Things change. :rolleyes: pretty much the same as you said, but from the opposite opinion.

True wrote:

What suits Gallimbh / Galway may not suit Dublin in 2005.

And yet, when Dublin reminds everyone as to how Irish they are, they're willing to do away with our language?

Regardless, Dublin is still part of Ireland. Its not part of England, and you have the same national language as us. In some ways Dublin is more archaic than other cities in Ireland..... *shock*

True wrote:

oooooh. Many people would not share your opinion that Northern Irish students are the same as spanish, german or US students that come over here. What about cherishing all children of the nation ?

What nation would that be? Ireland or the United Kingdom?

If they're British Citizens, then they're no different than any other nationality. If they're irish, then thats different.

simu

true wrote:

I have to agree with you there, Gom. Its way over the top. I think signs in two languages are distracting and ugly looking, especially when everyone just goes by the English writing anyway. And what about the extra cost of these signs, printing, leaflets, forms etc. What about the Irish students from N. Ireland who do not know any Irish? Some of them can already feel alienated enough as it is. Queens university went down this road some time ago and it was a big mistake. Its not the way to promote a language.

They're only signs and people aren't going to get alienated by them any more than I get alienated by seeing Chinese characters on the signs of Chinese restaurants!

Teneka

true wrote:

Its a dead old language. The proof of something is the market place. I have yet to see an Irish language magazine or newspaper in a newsagents. In all my years, I have never heard anyone speaking Irish except on RTE and at school. And yet all this money is wasted on the language the whole time.

You probably haven't seen an advertisement on billboards in Irish either?

Well, you'll be glad to know that the Chinese language has bet us to that. Check out the latest O2 advertisement.

simu

Teneka wrote:

You probably haven't seen an advertisement on billboards in Irish either?

Well, you'll be glad to know that the Chinese language has bet us to that. Check out the latest O2 advertisement.

There was that Hector one for the whiskey - spiorad iontach or some such thing.

The Corinthian

Deleted User wrote:

As far as i'm aware there is no requirement for a foreign national to know Irish to enter Ireland, work or rent property. The only exception is in regards to government jobs. Which makes sense, since they're representing the nation as part of their jobs.

At least when I went to school, foreign nationals were required to learn Irish, although it was not strictly enforced. Irish was required to enter an NUI college, unless one was born outside the State. I have heard of certain limitations on non-Irish speakers purchasing land or property in Gaelteacht areas, but cannot comment on the validity of this. Irish is also required in many non-State Jobs (Solictors / Barristers), however many government jobs are open to non-Nationals (my father being a case in point).

99.9% dead? You joking? Even by Goms reference, 42.83 % of Irish people have some ability to speak Irish. Hardly a dead language. Just not a popular language.

I have some ability to speak Latin. I know a good few other people who have a similar ability in the language. Does that mean that it’s not a dead language?

On this note, these sort of fuzzy self-assessment surveys of Irish as a spoken language are pretty useless as a meter of the language’s true health. Are there any unbiased surveys of the use of the language as a primary or even substantial daily role in Ireland?

simu

The Corinthian wrote:

I have some ability to speak Latin. I know a good few other people who have a similar ability in the language. Does that mean that it’s not a dead language?

My condition for a living language (others may disagree) is that children are being raised speaking it. This is important from a linguistic pov as living languages are changing constantly and each generation reinvents a language to a degree. I haven't met many three year olds who could decline Latin nouns in natural conversation! (it would be cool, though)

On this note, these sort of fuzzy self-assessment surveys of Irish as a spoken language are pretty useless as a meter of the language’s true health. Are there any unbiased surveys of the use of the language as a primary or even substantial daily role in Ireland?

Donnchadh Ó hÉalaithe made a good objective survey of the amount of Irish being spoken in the Gaeltachtaí for the newspaper Foinse recently (no online linkage, though). Outside these areas, it's a lot harder to make estimations as the census questions are far too vague.

I could rant along forever about Irish language policy in this country. There are some good initiatives in place but there's also a hell of a lot of needless bureaucracy, condescending tokenism, institutionalised inefficiency and badly-thought-out, badly-implemented planning.

The Corinthian

simu wrote:

Donnchadh Ó hÉalaithe made a good objective survey of the amount of Irish being spoken in the Gaeltachtaí for the newspaper Foinse recently (no online linkage, though).

But is a survey taken by an organization or person who has a vested interest in the language being seen as alive and well really all that objective?

Albeit anecdotal evidence, but I once knew a girl from Gaeltacht area who was in college with me and only spoke a few words of Irish. She recounted a visit by an inspector who coached them during the test and finally marked the family down as Irish speaking, even though, by her own admission it certainly was not.

Ultimately there are a lot of people who’s livelihoods are predicated on the belief that the it is still a viable national language, so I would have to say that were I to look for objective figures, Foinse would not be my first port of call.

simu

The Corinthian wrote:

But is a survey taken by an organization or person who has a vested interest in the language being seen as alive and well really all that objective?

Ultimately there are a lot of people who’s livelihoods are predicated on the belief that the it is still a viable national language, so I would have to say that were I to look for objective figures, Foinse would not be my first port of call.

On the other hand, if you're serious about saving the language, you have to look at reality no matter how distasteful and get to grips with it. It's a while since I read about that survey but I remember Ó hÉ. went more along the lines of "this is how bad things are - wake up!" rather than trying to pander to his audience.

This (below) was all I could find on-line about it, though, so there's not enough information to debate the topic properly.

There is a problem with regard to Irish at the moment. Irish language activists were greatly concerned by the recent survey which showed that less than one-quarter of the Gaeltacht population now lives in areas where Irish could be regarded as the dominant community language. The author of the recent report, Mr. Donacha Ó hEallaithe, is now spearheading a campaign to examine the boundaries of existing Gaeltacht areas. Several people are working towards forming a lobby group in regard to Irish in Gaeltacht areas and they are particularly focusing on a realistic redrawing of the boundaries. At present, areas are included in the Gaeltacht where no more Irish is spoken than in north Tipperary or Leitrim. There are areas in Galway city, and east of the city, which are designated as Gaeltacht areas, although Irish is no longer spoken there.

http://www.gov.ie/debates-99/s10mar99/sect3.htm

Albeit anecdotal evidence, but I once knew a girl from Gaeltacht area who was in college with me and only spoke a few words of Irish. She recounted a visit by an inspector who coached them during the test and finally marked the family down as Irish speaking, even though, by her own admission it certainly was not.

Yup, it happens - I've heard similar stories. That's a stupid scheme though - my family spoke Irish in Cork City so we wouldn't qualify for it and besides, I don't think a few extra euro a year is what motivates people to speak Irish to their kids. It's an example of the type of ineffectual scheme that should be abolished.

mike65

The Corinthian wrote:

At least when I went to school, foreign nationals were required to learn Irish, although it was not strictly enforced.

In my day if you were under 14 when you arrived you had to do Irish.

Mike.

true

Klaz said "Its ten years since my leaving cert, and I've been working 7 years of them. How many years since your leaving cert?"

Well, its considerably more than ten years since I done my leaving, and I can remember a lot more that the mere three words of German you admitted to remembering.
Not that this matters much. Its in our tourist related industries etc that I see the effects of our pathetic school language system the whole time. When checking in to a well known hotel in Ireland recently, there was a group of elderly continental visitors ahead of me, who had little or no English. None of the hotel receptionists had any French or German, yet they had wasted about one seventh of their acedemic / school lives studying a dead language they will probably never use a word of again.
I remember a similar story with an air Lingus air hostess some years ago.

gurramok

true wrote:

Not that this matters much. Its in our tourist related industries etc that I see the effects of our pathetic school language system the whole time. When checking in to a well known hotel in Ireland recently, there was a group of elderly continental visitors ahead of me, who had little or no English. None of the hotel receptionists had any French or German, yet they had wasted about one seventh of their acedemic / school lives studying a dead language they will probably never use a word of again.
I remember a similar story with an air Lingus air hostess some years ago.

Your scenario can happen in any hotel in any country. It has happened to me in many a country the exact situation with little or no english spoken.
Should the hotel receptionists know every language in the globe ?

Irish language is not dead, if so..why do Irish language schools(alot of them) exist then ?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

My 3 neices go to Scoil An tSeachtar Laoch in Ballymun and it is a fantastic school. I was never good at Irish in School but that does not mean it should not be encouraged.

Even the UK government is now ecouraging Scottish Gaelic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4238991.stm

SCULLY

I think, as it has been mentioned in a previous post, is that the current way that Irish is been thought does not, on the whole , seem to work i.e. I, like all of us who went through the school system here, was taught Irish from the word go, yet my grasp on the language is , to say the least , quite bad. I started to learn French when I went to secondary school and still remember French verbs and a good smattering of conversational vocab today (and yet I left school in the same year that Maradonna scored against England with the hand of God!). Perhaps starting learning Irish from scratch in secondary school is the way to go (by all means make it compulsory) and concentrate and conversational Irish as opposed to Peig and it's ilk.

I don't think that it is a dead language and have no problems with dual language signs (though I though the recent campaign to have all EU documents published in Irish a bad idea).

A lot of posters have had a pop at the Irish language , saying it is dead and has no place in today’s life, but I think that it is a part of our identity (whether you personally speak it our not). I wonder how many of these people would object if , for example, the words of the Irish national anthem were changed into English or we start to call bertie the prime minister (just small examples but you get my point).

Corinthian

Corinthian wrote:

I have some ability to speak Latin. I know a good few other people who have a similar ability in the language. Does that mean that it’s not a dead language?

I got a line from Dictionary.com

A language, such as Latin, that is no longer learned as a native language by a speech community

personally, I don't know exactly what categorises a Dead language, however, I don't see Irish as being one. Irish is taught to children as a primary language still in Ireland, and that for me makes it a very real language.

Corinthian wrote:

Irish is also required in many non-State Jobs (Solictors / Barristers), however many government jobs are open to non-Nationals (my father being a case in point).

Aye, but for the most part there isn't a requirement to enter, work and live in Ireland. Sure there are selected jobs where its required. Other countries have these restrictions. Many jobs in France require you to be fluent in French, despite their own acknowledgement that English is the business language used. I know french is the primary language used, but english is used in many business premises to avoid problems.

Corinthian wrote:

Albeit anecdotal evidence, but I once knew a girl from Gaeltacht area who was in college with me and only spoke a few words of Irish. She recounted a visit by an inspector who coached them during the test and finally marked the family down as Irish speaking, even though, by her own admission it certainly was not.

fair enough. There will always be some that scam the system. Regardless, I'm not opposed to the removal of the Gaelteacht.

I'm against the movement of the removal of Irish as our national language. Or moves to completely remove the use of Irish in schools, or the complete withdrawal of funding from the language.

true wrote:

Well, its considerably more than ten years since I done my leaving, and I can remember a lot more that the mere three words of German you admitted to remembering.

Well done! You have a better facility for remembering languages than I do.

True wrote:

Its in our tourist related industries etc that I see the effects of our pathetic school language system the whole time. When checking in to a well known hotel in Ireland recently, there was a group of elderly continental visitors ahead of me, who had little or no English. None of the hotel receptionists had any French or German, yet they had wasted about one seventh of their acedemic / school lives studying a dead language they will probably never use a word of again.

And thats a problem with our education system for those languages involved. It has nothing to do with irish as a language.

I'm not saying that the education system in place for Irish is all rosey. Its not. Its actually quite rubbish. But doing away with the language is not the answer.

The Corinthian

Deleted User wrote:

personally, I don't know exactly what categorises a Dead language, however, I don't see Irish as being one. Irish is taught to children as a primary language still in Ireland, and that for me makes it a very real language.

I don’t think the language is dead, but it would be delusional to suggest that it is not on life support. Problem is that some are that delusional; I’ve sat in meetings with Education ministers who refused to even discuss the topic of how Irish education had failed and been told that Irish was on the way back as the language of Ireland by TnaG journos in the pub.

As things stand Irish will be a dead language by 2100, largely because the opiate of subsidy has stupefied its proponents into ignoring the present reality of the language with an optimistic fantasy.

true

Originally Posted by True
"Its in our tourist related industries etc that I see the effects of our pathetic school language system the whole time. When checking in to a well known hotel in Ireland recently, there was a group of elderly continental visitors ahead of me, who had little or no English. None of the hotel receptionists had any French or German, yet they had wasted about one seventh of their acedemic / school lives studying a dead language they will probably never use a word of again. "

gurramok wrote:

Your scenario can happen in any hotel in any country. It has happened to me in many a country the exact situation with little or no english spoken.
Should the hotel receptionists know every language in the globe ?

Irish language is not dead, if so..why do Irish language schools(alot of them) exist then ?

No, nobody suggested the hotel receptionists should know every language in the globe. However, after 13 or 14 years in the Irish school system, you would expect that at least the one or two per cent of those school leavers who come in to contact with continental visitors to have a smattering of a continental language between them . In my experience, Air Lingus air hostesses now are not much better. Then we claim we have a great educational system, when 99% of us cannot communicate with our fellow EU mainland citizens. Lucky for us, many of them can speak English.

Irish language may not be dead, but its as good as. Maybe it should not have been beaten in to us at school. Maybe people should not have been blackmailed in to having it if they wanted a job in the civil service, or to study
say engineering at UCD, UCG or UCC.

Dyr

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

My 3 neices go to Scoil An tSeachtar Laoch in Ballymun and it is a fantastic school. I was never good at Irish in School but that does not mean it should not be encouraged.

Even the UK government is now ecouraging Scottish Gaelic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4238991.stm

I went there back in the day, its a VERY good school. Hopefully True will be pursuing his wee agenda with equal vigour against nigerians and chinese who will try to teach their kids their own languages while growing up in this english speaking country :rolleyes:

billy the squid

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

My 3 neices go to Scoil An tSeachtar Laoch in Ballymun and it is a fantastic school. I was never good at Irish in School but that does not mean it should not be encouraged.

Even the UK government is now ecouraging Scottish Gaelic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4238991.stm

I also vaguely remember a welch soap opera being given national broadcasts around 1994/1995 on BBc. It was a positive step on behalf of the national broadcaster in britain.

with regard to Trues's comments that the Irish language is dead. I would have to disagree with it. There are still families speaking it and teaching it to their children. therefore in my opinion the language is not dead as long as it is being passed down by parents to their children.

Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there.

true

billy the squid wrote:

I also vaguely remember a welch soap opera being given national broadcasts around 1994/1995 on BBc. It was a positive step on behalf of the national broadcaster in britain.

Perhaps 99.9% of the people who pay the BBC licence fee would disagree. What gives you the right to declare it was a positive step ? If it was positive, memories of it would not be so "vague" ( your word, not mine ) and it would still be running. The fact is, virtually nobody watched it.

billy the squid wrote:

with regard to Trues's comments that the Irish language is dead.
.

Actually, what I said in my last post wasx: "Irish language may not be dead, but its as good as". Which is true.

billy the squid wrote:

I would have to disagree with it. There are still families speaking it and teaching it to their children. therefore in my opinion the language is not dead as long as it is being passed down by parents to their children.

I never said there were not families out there speaking it and teaching it to their children. However, the fact that there is more Chinese spoken now in this country than Irish shows that Irish is not really a spoken national language. I have spent decades living and travelling in Ireland since I left school, and I never heard a word of Irish spoken since I left school except on RTE. When in shops and newsagents buying papers and magazines, I never saw any Irish language ones, not that I looked for them.

billy the squid wrote:

Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there.

LOL. LOL

true

billy the squid wrote:

I also vaguely remember a welch soap opera being given national broadcasts around 1994/1995 on BBc. It was a positive step on behalf of the national broadcaster in britain.

Perhaps 99.9% of the people who pay the BBC licence fee would disagree. What gives you the right to declare it was a positive step ? If it was positive, memories of it would not be so "vague" ( your word, not mine ) and it would still be running. The fact is, virtually nobody watched it. You cannot change the marketplace.

billy the squid wrote:

with regard to Trues's comments that the Irish language is dead.
.

Actually, what I said in my last post was: "Irish language may not be dead, but its as good as". Which is correct.

billy the squid wrote:

I would have to disagree with it. There are still families speaking it and teaching it to their children. therefore in my opinion the language is not dead as long as it is being passed down by parents to their children.

I never said there were not families out there speaking it and teaching it to their children. However, the fact that there is more Chinese spoken now in this country than Irish shows that Irish is not really a spoken national language. I have spent decades living and travelling in Ireland since I left school, and I never heard a word of Irish spoken since I left school except on RTE. When in shops and newsagents buying papers and magazines, I never saw any Irish language ones, not that I looked for them.

billy the squid wrote:

Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there.

LOL. LOL Lets keep the printers rich and the signs confusing and print them in Chinese and braille as well. Are Roadsigns already not in both Irish and English ? Except in the gaeltacht, where they are in Irish only? To really give the continental tourists no chance. At all at all. A fat lot of use us mumbling directions in Irish is to them when the vast majority of us cant speak a word of French or German to them. And a fat use the billions of euro that we have spent on the Irish language is, between gaeltacht grants, Irish language teachers, extra translating and printing costs etc. You could'nt make it up.

billy the squid

LOL. LOL Lets keep the printers rich and the signs confusing and print them in Chinese and braille as well. Are Roadsigns already not in both Irish and English ? Except in the gaeltacht, where they are in Irish only? To really give the continental tourists no chance. At all at all. A fat lot of use us mumbling directions in Irish is to them when the vast majority of us cant speak a word of French or German to them. And a fat use the billions of euro that we have spent on the Irish language is, between gaeltacht grants, Irish language teachers, extra translating and printing costs etc. You could'nt make it up.

It doesnt cost a hell of a lot now to put a few extra letters on a signpost. and your comments on putting roadsigns in braille is a little imature if not offensive.

There should be bilingual signs in the gaelteacht for parctical reasons. but removing Irish from certain official plaes such as roadsigns, government documents etc is not an unnecessary expense i think

sceptre

true wrote:

Perhaps 99.9% of the people who pay the BBC licence fee would disagree. What gives you the right to declare it was a positive step ? If it was positive, memories of it would not be so "vague" ( your word, not mine ) and it would still be running. The fact is, virtually nobody watched it.

I'm going to assume that Billy's referring to Pobal y Cwm (made for S4C by BBC Cymru and indeed broadcast on the Beeb as well a few years ago IIRC)and actually it's pretty popular (in other words, what gives you the right to say that nobody watched it when it's been successfully running for over 30 years and was the first UK soap to be broadcast five nights a week?) and sometimes actually good (Sky viewers who feel like tuning into the goings-on in Cwmderi can pick it up at 6 weekdays on s4c digidol (ch151 on an irish subscription) and there's an omnibus on Sundays). So while Billy's memories of it may be quite vague, I can tell that you've never heard of it which might be a poor basis for commenting on it. Also using your own logic, given that it's still running (new episodes five times a week) it may well have been a positive step but either way it can be entertaining for those of the Welsh persuasion or those interested in the spitty language.

Moving on, I realise (as you've mentioned it a number of times) that you've never seen an irish newspaper or magazine on sale in trips into newsagents. Might be the newsagents you're going into but I've seen a few over the years (I won't say "loads") and they do exist and presumably people are buying them. And I'm not looking for them either as I've little interest in the language of my great-great grandfathers (given that I'm from the east side of Cork I guess they were all speaking English by about 1890 or much earlier) apart from a very occasional learning interest in language in general and etymology in particular - I assumed I probably couldn't speak it in the last census and ticked the "never speak it box" as well. As I did for the one before.

Now, on to this notion of "billions" (of euros I assume) spent on the Irish language, have tyou got anything to support that? Obviously we've spent quite a bit of dosh on it and I'd see quite a bit of that as wasted money as it's been badly targetted but "billions" sounds like tabloid sensationalism unless you've got something to back that word up (as it was obviously important enough to you to put that in instead of "piles").


As a general comment, as I've said before, in my opinion the Irish language is on its terminal death bed as a spoken (or living) language outside the lab (or rather classroom). I'd still like to see a reasonable discussion where the subject is brought up though, as "I didn't like it in school and it was rammed down me throat" is really only as good a basis for discussion as any other personal opinion of a personal perception of a personal experience. Ditto with "I loved it in school and our teacher gave us a great love for the language and I think it's wunnerful". Not that you can't say either of those things of course but I wouldn't seek to presume and base a line of argument on your own grá or fuath for whatever you learned in the classroom.

true

billy the squid wrote:

It doesnt cost a hell of a lot now to put a few extra letters on a signpost.

You go round and do say 25,000 signs in Chinese,( which incidentally is a more spoken language in Ireland than Irish) , if it doesnt cost a hell of a lot as you claim. No, the real waste of time and money in Irish, is the amount of time and effort thats put in to drumming it in to our schoolkids, day in , day oiut, until leaving cert., whither they want to or not.

billy the squid wrote:

and your comments on putting roadsigns in braille is a little imature if not offensive.

It was tongue in cheek, I said " the signs confusing and print them in Chinese and braille as well. Are Roadsigns already not in both Irish and English ? Except in the gaeltacht, where they are in Irish only". Virtually all tourists driving around this country complain about our signs. I remember a poor group of continentals tourists ( who were completely disorientated and lost in Dublin ) once and asking where "An Lar" was, it was on the front of so many buses. Someone said to me " Ah sure I suppose it helps the odd culchi up from the gaeltacht, who cares about anyone else."

billy the squid wrote:

There should be bilingual signs in the gaelteacht for parctical reasons. but removing Irish from certain official plaes such as roadsigns, government documents etc is not an unnecessary expense i think

"not an unnecessary expense". ?????? I never discussed removing " Irish from certain official plaes such as roadsigns, government documents etc "

You said earlier "Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there." I gave my response. LOL
Begorrah, ye couldnt make it up.

true

sceptre wrote:

I'm going to assume that Billy's referring to Pobal y Cwm (made for S4C by BBC Cymru and indeed broadcast on the Beeb as well a few years ago IIRC)and actually it's pretty popular (in other words, what gives you the right to say that nobody watched it when it's been successfully running for over 30 years

I said "virtually nobody", not nobody. If you check out the TAM ratings I think you will see that it does have a very small audience, but the television channell is very politically correct and has to be seen to be so and hence produces programmes for minorities. I think it is notunreasonable that minorities should have their own programme the odd time as well.
The name of the programme "Pobal y Cwm" does not exactly spring to mind as being as popular as Cornie St, Eastendersm The Bill, Emmerdale or any of those. I always prefered Glenroe myself. ( I'm not joking ) to the uk soaps.

sceptre wrote:

Now, on to this notion of "billions" (of euros I assume) spent on the Irish language, have tyou got anything to support that? Obviously we've spent quite a bit of dosh on it and I'd see quite a bit of that as wasted money as it's been badly targetted but "billions" sounds like tabloid sensationalism unless you've got something to back that word up (as it was obviously important enough to you to put that in instead of "piles").

Fair point. Hands up, I probably exagerated saying billions. But lets say one seventh of school time is spent teaching Irish , which is a fair estimate I would say , then one seventh of the government education budget is spent on Irish. How much does that total since the foundation of the state. Billions ?
And what about the language translating costs, extra printing costs, Udaras na Gaeltacht grants, other Gaeltacht expenditure and grants etc.

sceptre

true wrote:

I said "virtually nobody", not nobody.

The quantifiable difference being?

Actually I didn't notice you saying "nobody or "virtually nobody", I was more interested in your conclusion that the show was an obvious failure as it had ended when it hadn't ended at all.

If you check out the TAM ratings I think you will see that it does have a very small audience

I don't necessarily see the need to check out the Nielsens (it is Nielsens in the Uk these days I think though I'm not sure tbh) for terrestrial or the BARBs for satellite viewing as it's definitely got a small audience relatively speaking given that it's only broadcast on a Welsh-language channel that a minority in the UK can receive. It's consistently in the channel's top five shows though, which you'll notice if it's important enough for you to check out the ratings. In other words, now you essentially have to demonstrate that s4c itself is a waste of time (if you feel the need) rather than the particular show as it's one of their more popular shows. or we can stop the whole Welsh thing if you like as unlike Welsh, there are rather fewer Irish people over schooling age who can speak the original language of their country (which is why I've never seen Welsh as a good comparison to make for Irish as unlike Irish, Welsh is growing in numbers, even among people who've emigrated into Wales from outside the EU (see the UK 2001 census for details))

but the television channell is very politically correct

Channel 4? Or s4c in particular? Or the BBC?

and has to be seen to be so and hence produces programmes for minorities.

I'd disagree with the "has to be seen to be so" as I reckon that's a bunch of arse myself (channel 4 does its best to be politically incorrect where possible, s4c doesn't have much of an agenda beyond the language and the BBC are forever being criticised for one thing or another) but all the above channels produce programmes for minorities because they're required to in their charter or broadcasting licence. They might do it anyway, I don't know that they would and you don't know that they wouldn't. In the case of a Welsh-language channel obviously they're not transmitting a Welsh-language show for a minority of their audience in any case, they're transmitting a Welsh-language show for the vast majority of their audience (however small that audience may be, find out how small that potential audience is if you're going to base anything on the rough number of Welsh speakers to apply it to Irish)

I think it is notunreasonable that minorities should have their own programme the odd time as well.

The British government, BBC governers and C4 administrators must agree with you, which is probably why they wrote it into the charter or licences. At worst it's as valid as a documentary about the lesser spotted snorkelback, at best more people might watch any given minority language show in the UK as a percentage of the potential audience that can receive it than you might think. Or not. Either way the audience is small but we knew that already.

The name of the programme "Pobal y Cwm" does not exactly spring to mind as being as popular as Cornie St, Eastendersm The Bill, Emmerdale or any of those.

Worth keeping in mind that the show started in the seventies and initially based itself on the goings-on in the local shop, pub and church. They only sexed it up in the last few years (just like Corrie incidentally) (it's Pobol y Cwm rather than Pobal btw, my fault for jotting in the typo). While the title isn't exactly racy (not that Emmerdale Farm was either), it's instantly recognisable to Welsh people as referring to them and this was probably important back when it started. Back before the storylines revolved around kidnappings, suicides, faked deaths, drug-running and love triangles. Oh you'd be surprised what kind of shenanigans go on in little Welsh villages.

How much does that total since the foundation of the state. Billions ?

I've genuinely no idea whatever. More than a tenner and less than a gazillion is as good a guess as I'll give without some actual thought, a copy of the Finance Bills for the past eighty years and a calculator. That's why I was wondering why you were possibly grossly exaggerating to make your position all the more righteous. Incidentally one-seventh of time doesn't equal 14% of the expense, at least at secondary level. Science costs a frigging fortune to provide in schools.

billy the squid

You said earlier "Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there." I gave my response. LOL
Begorrah, ye couldnt make it up.

you dont believe that there are people in this country whose first language is irish? enlighten us all (without the snide remarks btw)

Perhaps 99.9% of the people who pay the BBC licence fee would disagree. What gives you the right to declare it was a positive step ? If it was positive, memories of it

1. I don't speak welch so I had little interest in it.

2. I was a teenager so didnt have time to either watch every episode or ake note of the name of it in for someone that might question me about it ten years later.

3. I believe that it was a positive step as it included not only people in wales but included any welch people who had moved to other parts of the UK in a time when other UK regions were not availible in other parts of the UK. Alternative regions are now availible anywhere in the UK thanks to sk digital.

true

billy the squid wrote:

you dont believe that there are people in this country whose first language is irish? enlighten us all
.

I never said there were not families out there speaking it and teaching it to their children. However, the fact that there is more Chinese spoken now in this country than Irish shows that Irish is not really a spoken national language. Over the years, I have spent some short holiday time in the Gaeltacht areas of Kerry, Galway and Donegal and even in the petrol station there last year I remember the local youths in the shop talking in English, and speaking to me in English before I opened my mouth. Perhaps they only speak through Irish when they are looking for grants? I am sure there must be some families who communicate through Irish. ( and fair dues to them, they can communicate through swaheli for all I care ). My point is that as a percentage of the total Irish population it must be very small.

oscarBravo

true wrote:

However, the fact that there is more Chinese spoken now in this country than Irish shows that Irish is not really a spoken national language.

It does?

true wrote:

Over the years, I have spent some short holiday time in the Gaeltacht areas of Kerry, Galway and Donegal and even in the petrol station there last year I remember the local youths in the shop talking in English, and speaking to me in English before I opened my mouth. Perhaps they only speak through Irish when they are looking for grants?

That's just a tad cynical, no?

I was in a plumbing supplies shop in Castlebar (not normally considered the centre of the Irish-speaking universe) a while ago, and there was a woman at the counter looking for something. When the merchant offered her a choice that confused her, she made a call on her mobile: "An bhfuil Máirtín ansin? ..."

true

sceptre wrote:

Actually I didn't notice you saying "nobody or "virtually nobody", I was more interested in your conclusion that the show was an obvious failure as it had ended when it hadn't ended at all.

I did not use the phrase " the show was an obvious failure "!
It is interesting that you call the Irish language a "show". A freudian slip perhaps? I suppose that as Irish is no practical use in the world, is that all it is, a show? A show which so much time, effort and money is pumped in to.
Would you say it is a show which has being promoted for asthetic or political reasons, or what ?

sceptre wrote:

I don't necessarily see the need to check out the Nielsens (it is Nielsens in the Uk these days I think though I'm not sure tbh) for terrestrial or the BARBs for satellite viewing as it's definitely got a small audience relatively speaking given that it's only broadcast on a Welsh-language channel that a minority in the UK can receive. It's consistently in the channel's top five shows though, which you'll notice if it's important enough for you to check out the ratings. In other words, now you essentially have to demonstrate that s4c itself is a waste of time (if you feel the need) rather than the particular show as it's one of their more popular shows. or we can stop the whole Welsh thing if you like as unlike Welsh, there are rather fewer Irish people over schooling age who can speak the original language of their country (which is why I've never seen Welsh as a good comparison to make for Irish as unlike Irish, Welsh is growing in numbers, even among people who've emigrated into Wales from outside the EU (see the UK 2001 census for details))

Census can show a lot a things re languages. To read the Irish census you would think Irish was a spoken language everywhere in Ireland and that you would hear it the whole time in shops, on the bus, in taxis etc.
My point re the popularity of the welsh language programme is that a very small per centage of the licence payers in the UK would watch such a programme. This being said, I do agree with some programmes for minorities.

sceptre wrote:

I'd disagree with the "has to be seen to be so" as I reckon that's a bunch of arse myself (channel 4 does its best to be politically incorrect where possible, s4c doesn't have much of an agenda beyond the language and the BBC are forever being criticised for one thing or another) but all the above channels produce programmes for minorities because they're required to in their charter or broadcasting licence. They might do it anyway, I don't know that they would and you don't know that they wouldn't.

I repeat : the television stations have to be politically correct. If they are seen to be not so, they attract immediate attention and criticism. Channel 4 does produce a lot of programmes for minorities. In a democracy the size of the UK, made up of so many ethnic minorities and groups, I am not surprised the BBC is "forever being criticised for one thing or another". It still has to strive to be politically correct.

sceptre wrote:

The British government, BBC governers and C4 administrators must agree with you, which is probably why they wrote it into the charter or licences. At worst it's as valid as a documentary about the lesser spotted snorkelback, at best more people might watch any given minority language show in the UK as a percentage of the potential audience that can receive it than you might think. Or not. Either way the audience is small but we knew that already.

Agreed.

sceptre wrote:

Worth keeping in mind that the show started in the seventies and initially based itself on the goings-on in the local shop, pub and church. They only sexed it up in the last few years (just like Corrie incidentally) (it's Pobol y Cwm rather than Pobal btw, my fault for jotting in the typo). While the title isn't exactly racy (not that Emmerdale Farm was either), it's instantly recognisable to Welsh people as referring to them and this was probably important back when it started. Back before the storylines revolved around kidnappings, suicides, faked deaths, drug-running and love triangles. Oh you'd be surprised what kind of shenanigans go on in little Welsh villages.

Bit like the goings on in Glenroe. Fine, whatever people want.

sceptre wrote:

I've genuinely no idea whatever. More than a tenner and less than a gazillion is as good a guess as I'll give without some actual thought, a copy of the Finance Bills for the past eighty years and a calculator. That's why I was wondering why you were possibly grossly exaggerating to make your position all the more righteous. Incidentally one-seventh of time doesn't equal 14% of the expense, at least at secondary level. Science costs a frigging fortune to provide in schools.

If "science costs a frigging fortune to provide in schools" , Irish must cost a lot more. Say one sixth of primary school time / textbooks etc is devoted to Irish. None to science. In secondary school, say one seventh of school time, textbooks etc is devoted to Irish as well as science up to junior cert. Not everyone who does the leaving cert studies science, but everyone (Irish) by law has to study Irish. OK, I know there may be relatively small costs for chemistry insurance and materials, but overall Irish must cost MORE "than a frigging fortune". Besides all this, Doctors , chemists, engineers, scientists, pharmacists and nurses etc need to study science as a foundation for their careers. We could live without Irish being taught to Doctors , chemists, engineers, scientists, pharmacists and nurses etc, but could we live without science being taught to them ?

Next time I meet my friendly doctor , chemist, engineer, pharmacist and nurse, I must ask them had they anyone who ever asked them something in Irish. I know examples of each of the above professions who think Irish is a complete waste of taxpayers money, and students time.

embraer170

When in shops and newsagents buying papers and magazines, I never saw any Irish language ones, not that I looked for them.

Not only that but if you spoke Irish, the newsagent would probably think you're mad.

The whole country being held at ransom by an absolute minority. I have no problem with those with an interest taking initiative to keep our heritage alive, but the present situation is unsustainable. Over 20% of total compulsory education teaching time is dedicated to a subject which is never put to practical use by a majority. Statistics can be twisted which ever way you want (census irregularities have been mentioned above), but walk down any Irish main street, walk into any pub or take a walk down the train on your commute home, I bet you’ll hear more Chinese, German and Polish spoken than Irish (and not by tourists).

Not to mention the cost to the payer, it is damaging Ireland’s competitiveness (we are the only ‘EU of 15’ country not to teach science at primary school level)