should i be afraid?

gubby

my son found this on the bus on his way home from school today.

gubby

sorry I could not upload the doc.
it was a leaflet from ogra shinn fein
"Through protest action, political discussion and international solidarity we campaign on issues that matter to young people:-
Irish re-unification * minimum wages * Globalisation * Car Insurance * youth right * environment
and much more..
am i over reacting???

true

If Sinn Fein was a normal political party , without a "military" wing, we would not need to be afraid. As we all know, those of us old enough to remember IRA atrocities carried out probably before your son was born, it is not a healthy situation for a political party in a democracy to be backed up by a military wing with guns and semtex under the table. You have to hand it to the Shinners, they do word hard at grass roots level to indoctrinate young people. Perhaps Mrs McAleese would have been better off comparing the Hitler youth to Ogra Sinn Fein ? There are many parallels.

A Dub in Glasgo

gubby wrote:

sorry I could not upload the doc.
it was a leaflet from ogra shinn fein
"Through protest action, political discussion and international solidarity we campaign on issues that matter to young people:-
Irish re-unification * minimum wages * Globalisation * Car Insurance * youth right * environment
and much more..
am i over reacting???

You never said what your reaction is therefore we do not know if you have overreacted

Did you punish him? Did you have a row? Did you kick him out of the house?

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You never said what your reaction is therefore we do not know if you have overreacted

Did you punish him? Did you have a row? Did you kick him out of the house?

Doh ! At the beginning, Gubby asked should he be afraid ? At the end he asks is he over reacting. Obviously he means is he over reacting by being afraid ? A Springfield national school education comes in handy now and again.

Punishments, Rows, Expulsion from house / areas etc are words more commonly associated with Sinn Fein / IRA behaviour.

Capt'n Midnight

true wrote:

Perhaps Mrs McAleese would have been better off comparing the Hitler youth to Ogra Sinn Fein ? There are many parallels.

SF are Socialist and Nationalist and

National Socialism anyone ?

If anyone from Ogra is watching - what is thier position on Proxy Bombs ?

Mad Cyril

Many mainstream political party's have youth wings. If you are going to accuse Sinn Féin of indoctrination then you are levelling a similar accusation against all other political party's with a youth movement.

true

Mad Cyril wrote:

Many mainstream political party's have youth wings. If you are going to accuse Sinn Féin of indoctrination then you are levelling a similar accusation against all other political party's with a youth movement.

I would prefer to see my son joining a party that did not have a "military"wing that one that did. I have read Sinn Fein literature over the years, and in all fairness, I think their version of the truth is very questionable indeed. But what would you expect from a party that refuses to condemn the abduction , murderand disappearance of a mother of ten as a crime ?

Extremist political organisations having youth wings is not good, when these organisations have links to illegial terrorist organisations.

Mad Cyril

I think their version of the truth is very questionable indeed.

Every single political party on the face of the Earth has a questionable version of the truth.

true

Mad Cyril wrote:

Every single political party on the face of the Earth has a questionable version of the truth.

Yes, but not all of them have terrorist wings, heavily armed with klasknikovs, semtex etc. Not all political parties on the face of the earth would refuse to condemn the abduction, torture, murder and disappearance of a mother of ten as a crime. Not all political parties thinks its "military" wing can commit no crime.

ReefBreak

Mad Cyril wrote:

Every single political party on the face of the Earth has a questionable version of the truth.

Welcome, Mad Cyril, to Boards.ie where the IRA fanboys attempt to justify their support for a bunch of terrorists on a daily basis.

Villain

ReefBreak wrote:

Welcome, Mad Cyril, to Boards.ie where the IRA fanboys attempt to justify their support for a bunch of terrorists on a daily basis.

LOL, and where ReefBreak bashes Sinn Fein at every opportunity, instead of discussing politics.

SF have a mandate the same as every other party, they tackle issues that affect the youth of soceity, I remember when I was in college they were the only party willing to back students looking for the Grant to be raised.

Hobbes

ReefBreak wrote:

Welcome, Mad Cyril, to Boards.ie where the IRA fanboys attempt to justify their support for a bunch of terrorists on a daily basis.

Its better to have a dissenting voice then no voice at all. I'd say the spread here is 50/50.

having not seen the leaflet I guess there is probably nothing in it that isn't already on their site.

Unless you can point out something in particular you should be afraid of?

Sounds nothing more then usual political campaign material. All parties have them and some people get worked up over others.

jbkenn

irish1 wrote:

SF have a mandate the same as every other party, they tackle issues that affect the youth of soceity, I remember when I was in college they were the only party willing to back students looking for the Grant to be raised.

Yes they have a mandate, they have T.D.'s and councillors, and a total and absolute fixation with Norn Iron, what about the other issues, because lets face it, to the average punter in North Kerry or Dublin, does he/she give a toss about Norn Iron, I doubt it is at the top of their prioity list.

jbkenn

Mad Cyril

true wrote:

Yes, but not all of them have terrorist wings, heavily armed with klasknikovs, semtex etc. Not all political parties on the face of the earth would refuse to condemn the abduction, torture, murder and disappearance of a mother of ten as a crime. Not all political parties thinks its "military" wing can commit no crime.

I still don't see how any of that proves that SF's "indoctrination" is any different to the other party's in this state.

Just to note, I am not supporter of PSF or the PIRA.

Redleslie2

ReefBreak wrote:

Welcome, Mad Cyril, to Boards.ie where the IRA fanboys attempt to justify their support for a bunch of terrorists on a daily basis.

And where those who profess to be appalled by the IRA justify their support for 'good' murder in Iraq. Although in fairness, they've all been very very quiet about the bloodbath lately.

toiletduck

it seems like a lot of young people go through a phase where they think Sinn Fein/IRA are the future but most grow out of it.

Raskolnikov

gubby wrote:

"Through protest action, political discussion and international solidarity we campaign on issues that matter to young people:-
Irish re-unification * minimum wages * Globalisation * Car Insurance * youth right * environment

Bar the Irish re-unification bit, it doesn't seem that dissimilar to the Labour/Green/Socialist Youth position. Source: Labour Yoof.

Capt'n Midnight

Mad Cyril wrote:

Every single political party on the face of the Earth has a questionable version of the truth.

As does every religion.

That argument is like the creationist argument in US education, an alternative view that is different is therefore it is of equal merit, NO it isn't.

SF - taking the gun out of Irish Politics.
IRA - put it back on the table again this week.

"Politics is the art of the possible"
-Otto Von Bismark
Unlike people like the ANC we have had universal sufferage for ages, this means that political goals are obtainable with political means IF sufficient people support them (democracy and all that) - If you can't achieve something in a system with universal suffeage it isn't possible.

"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the
battlefield will think hard before starting a war."
-Otto Von Bismarck
Those who support violence or justify it or fund it are also responsible. Also those who don't think hard before starting violence are idiots who have proven that they aren't capable of managing power.

"Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied."
-Otto Von Bismarck
bank robberies

"You can't destroy the polish national-consciousness or Poles on the battlefield, but if you give them power, they will destroy themselves"
-Otto Von Bismarck
yet another reason to not give SF the power they demand

let's not forget that many dictators have hijacked the democratic process by creating a state of civil unrest.


I'll keep saying it - I've not seen any long term PR strategy on the part of the IRA to keep any of the hard won public opinion generated by SF. That one thing alone means I can't ever trust them. This is basic stuff, actions speak louder than words, until SF/IRA realise that there is more to politics than empty retoric they will be an imature party not to be trusted...

Mad Cyril

That argument is like the creationist argument in US education, an alternative view that is different is therefore it is of equal merit, NO it isn't.

secret_squirrel

jbkenn wrote:

to the average punter in North Kerry

Well Martin Ferris must have done something right :rolleyes:

gubby

true wrote:

Doh ! At the beginning, Gubby asked should he be afraid ? At the end he asks is he over reacting. Obviously he means is he over reacting by being afraid ? A Springfield national school education comes in handy now and again.

Punishments, Rows, Expulsion from house / areas etc are words more commonly associated with Sinn Fein / IRA behaviour.

No in fact I am not in the least worried about my son joining this party.. he takes a healthy intrest in irish politics and thankfully is not rushing in with heart in hand and bomb in the other.
I just found it rather odd that this leaflet should appear this week, of all weeks. I also have been disturbed in recent years by the amount of young people who seem to know, and can sing with gusto, all the old rebel songs I used to love long ago. However, I feel that now is a time to put aside those old pains and try to build some new bonds. I am sure Fr. Murphy from old Kilcormack who cried "arm arm cos I have come to lead you" would forgive me now.
by the way.. I am a she.. not a he :mad:

oscarBravo

Redleslie2 wrote:

And where those who profess to be appalled by the IRA justify their support for 'good' murder in Iraq.

That's a sweeping generalisation that I beg to differ vigorously with.

true

Mad Cyril wrote:

I still don't see how any of that proves that SF's "indoctrination" is any different to the other party's in this state.

In the past, during the "armed struggle", Sinn Fein has fed some of its young recruits such propoganda and a hatred of the Brits / Prods , that it has had little difficulty then passing them on to its "military wing", to carry out bomb and gun attacks. All other parties do not have a military wing with a distorted view of the world eg the IRA does not recognise the Southern govt or security services as being legitimate. Sinn Fein - never mind the IRA -refuses to condemn the murder and abduction of a mother of ten as a crime. If you listen to Shinners talking among themselves you will really get a feeling for their attitudes.

Mad Cyril

In the past, during the "armed struggle", Sinn Fein has fed some of its young recruits such propoganda and a hatred of the Brits / Prods

You find me one piece of propeganda which encourages or promotes hatred of protestants.

SF's agenda has always been the removal of Brtain from Ireland and no doubt their propeganda would reflect that. Each and every political party uses propeganda to promaot ehteir agenda, it is part of the political system.

that it has had little difficulty then passing them on to its "military wing", to carry out bomb and gun attacks

Any person who Joined the IRA made a concious decision to do so. Of course the organistation would promote itself, that is hardly suprising.

All other parties do not have a military wing with a distorted view of the world

There is no such thing as a difinitively correct world view. Any person or organistation ahs a subjective view of the world.

And no all other party's do not have a military wing. In this country however there has been many party's which have in the past.

eg the IRA does not recognise the Southern govt or security services as being legitimate.

This position has eased somewhat in recent years to facilitate the peace process. I fail to see your point anyway, that was there position.

Sinn Fein - never mind the IRA -refuses to condemn the murder and abduction of a mother of ten as a crime.

Again that is open to argument. If they hold this position and you disagree with it, don't vote for them.

If you listen to Shinners talking among themselves you will really get a feeling for their attitudes.

I frequently do.


None of this has any relevance to my original point. Sinn Féin's "indoctrination" is absolutely no different than that of any other party.

gandalf

Redleslie2 wrote:

And where those who profess to be appalled by the IRA justify their support for 'good' murder in Iraq. Although in fairness, they've all been very very quiet about the bloodbath lately.

As has already been stated that is a generalisation without proof and I also would be one of those who were against the illegal war in Iraq and am "appalled by" the IRA, the now Shy and retiring Sinn Fein and the criminal activities that they try and sweep under the carpet!

Back on topic, I have no problem with political parties having youth wings, they are a sign of a healthy democracy and help to instill an interest from an early age in politics. I myself was a member of a student wing of a political party in my day. However when that party has a link, relationship with a paramilitary organisation responsible for a catalogue of crimes that in some cases are ongoing then it is sinister and disturbing. Are the youths recruited into this youth wing going to find their way into the military wing, personally I think so.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

gandalf wrote:

Are the youths recruited into this youth wing going to find their way into the military wing, personally I think so.

Another generalisation without proof!!

I have known a few people who joined SF Youth and have not 'found' their way into the IRA.

A Dub in Glasgo

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=215670

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

AmenToThat

gandalf wrote:

Are the youths recruited into this youth wing going to find their way into the military wing, personally I think so.

From my own knowledge(very limited) of republican friends5% who join SF end up in the Provos. This depends on the area though, if an area has a history of staunch republicanism the stats would be higher but in an area where SF is only now making headway and so there is no IRA 'base' for want of a better word no one tends to end up in the IRA

Not that I have any problem with anyone deciding the join the IRA Im just giving you my very very limited personal experiences from what Iv observed.

Capt'n Midnight

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Another generalisation without proof!!

I have known a few people who joined SF Youth and have not 'found' their way into the IRA.

you forgot the word yet

also how would you know if they had joined the IRA aren't volunteers supposed to keep thier identities secret.

also "a few" is not a big enough statistic to prove it doesn't happen

oscarBravo

Mad Cyril wrote:

Again that [whether the abduction and murder of a mother of ten is a crime] is open to argument.

It most certainly is not.

A Dub in Glasgo

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

you forgot the word yet

I don't normally go around making accusations against people with respect to any future action they may do. You could be a future rapist for all I know but I would not go around stating that I believe you will rape someone next week/month/year.

also how would you know if they had joined the IRA aren't volunteers supposed to keep thier identities secret.

I believe them and I trust them

also "a few" is not a big enough statistic to prove it doesn't happen

Dear God, I am not trying to prove it does not happen. I am responding to Gandalf who has made a generalisation. The normal response to a generalisation is to ask the person to prove what they are saying not for someone to disprove what was said.

In my experience I have known 3 people who joined SF via their youth section and they are fine members of society. How many do you know?

A Dub in Glasgo

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

They have policies which may be 'popular' amongst their target electorate and they have policies which may not be so 'popular'. For example, I would imagine their policy on the whole question of refugees and immigrants is against the 'man on the street' view if my experience of the 'man on the street' view is anything to go by.

I find other opposition parties have the luxury of some 'popular' policies as well and the Government parties have policies which are popular to some of their target electorate.

Mad Cyril

oscarBravo wrote:

It most certainly is not.

I actually shouldn't have commented on that part of his post because it is not relevant to this thread.

However it most certainly is debatable whether or not the aforementioned act could be defined as criminal. I am not claiming that it wasn't, but there is a valid argument. Having said that the refusal to disclose the location of the body to relatives is inexcusable and despicable.

jbkenn

Mad Cyril wrote:

However it most certainly is debatable whether or not the aforementioned act could be defined as criminal. I am not claiming that it wasn't, but there is a valid argument.

No, there can never be a valid arguement for this barbaric murder.

Having said that the refusal to disclose the location of the body to relatives is inexcusable and despicable.

In response to the original post, with a mindset like this, you have every right to be afraid
jbkenn

Teneka

SF are Socialist and Nationalist and

National Socialism anyone ?

Huh?

MadsL

Huh?

Try the library. History section.

Mad Cyril

Mad Cyril wrote:

I actually shouldn't have commented on that part of his post because it is not relevant to this thread.

However it most certainly is debatable whether or not the aforementioned act could be defined as criminal. I am not claiming that it wasn't, but there is a valid argument. Having said that the refusal to disclose the location of the body to relatives is inexcusable and despicable.

If the people who abducted and murdered that poor woman were caught and tried in a court of law and there was suffecient evidence to say they did it then they would be convicted of the crime of murder.

Theres nothing debatable about what happened to her,she didnt dig the hole in the sand herself and cover herself up...
Or maybe she did...

I better qualify that by saying its my opinion before I'm banned... :rolleyes:

true

[Glasgo]QUOTE=A Dub in I don't normally go around making accusations against people with respect to any future action they may do. You could be a future rapist for all I know but I would not go around stating that I believe you will rape someone next week/month/year.
[/QUOTE]

Very few civilians go on to be rapists. Quite a lot of Sinn Feiners go on to be IRA men / women. The list is endless if you want examples over the years.


Quote by Dub : "I believe them and I trust them"

You believe and trust people who say they are not in the IRA ? After all the IRA has done ? After all the lies they have told, like the Adara murder ? After all the half-truths ? If someone was in the IRA, do you think they would tell you ? Are they not supposed not to ? If someone told you they never committed a crime , lets presume they are fine members of society as you say. But they could have abducted , tortured and murdered a mother of ten. Oh but thats not a crime. Fine people indeed.

You , Dub in Glasgo, may think the IRA and their apologists are believeable and trustworthy, but their many victims and victims relatives would disagree with you.

oscarBravo

Mad Cyril wrote:

However it most certainly is debatable whether or not the aforementioned act could be defined as criminal. I am not claiming that it wasn't, but there is a valid argument.

No, there isn't, unless you live in the distorted fantasy world where the IRA army council is the legitimate government of this country.

I live in Ireland, where the deliberate and premeditated shooting of an unarmed mother in the head is a crime.

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote:

I live in Ireland, where the deliberate and premeditated shooting of an unarmed mother in the head is a crime.

I live here also. Using a single murder out of 4 odd thousand murders over the 'troubles' as a political football is disrespectful to the victim.
Let the authorities deal with it if they are competent enough.

true

gurramok wrote:

I live here also. Using a single murder out of 4 odd thousand murders over the 'troubles' as a political football is disrespectful to the victim.
Let the authorities deal with it if they are competent enough.

The main reason its mnentioned ("political football" as you call it) is

(A) The IRA abducted, tortured, shot and burried the woman, and had the cheek to tell her children lies about her disappearance.
(B) The IRA and their old political wing, Sinn Fein, refuse to see the above as a crime.

All of the other murders out of the total were also disrespectful to the victims, and to the vast majority of us who did not agree with the IRA terrorist campaign / war / call it what you will, in the first place.

gurramok

true wrote:

The main reason its mnentioned ("political football" as you call it) is

(A) The IRA abducted, tortured, shot and burried the woman, and had the cheek to tell her children lies about her disappearance.
(B) The IRA and their old political wing, Sinn Fein, refuse to see the above as a crime.

All of the other murders out of the total were also disrespectful to the victims, and to the vast majority of us who did not agree with the IRA terrorist campaign / war / call it what you will, in the first place.

It was not just IRA murders. If you have a trawl through the list of victims, there were also murder of other innocents not just by loyalists but by so-called legtimate security forces where the murders are not classfied as crimes as its suits them.
Hardly a successful prosecution arose from those crimes but do you see political parties using these as political footballs for their own gain ?
Not one group has a monopoly on grief.

Teneka

MadsL wrote:

Try the library. History section.

Yes but it doesn't make sense.

AmenToThat

oscarBravo wrote:

I live in Ireland, where the deliberate and premeditated shooting of an unarmed mother in the head is a crime.

Well I live in Ireland to and while I think the killing of that poor woman was a horrible thing to happen if the IRA were convinced at the time that she was a traitor then they were guilty of no crime in killing her.

true

AmenToThat wrote:

Well I live in Ireland to and while I think the killing of that poor woman was a horrible thing to happen if the IRA were convinced at the time that she was a traitor then they were guilty of no crime in killing her.

Define a traitor. A law abiding citizen in any state in the world has the right, if not the duty, to report illegial activities to the security services of the democratically elected government. Who are the bigger traitors - gougers like the IRA gang , oh brave boys they were, or the defenceless mother of ten whose only crime was to go to comfort a dying British soldier, someones son, on the side of the road.

If a group thinks someone is a " traitor " is it a crime if they abduct, torture and kill her ? If the group was a group of escaped phycos ? If the group was a group of UVF men ? Oh , I see, only the IRA have the right ?

AmenToThat

AmenToThat wrote:

Well I live in Ireland to and while I think the killing of that poor woman was a horrible thing to happen if the IRA were convinced at the time that she was a traitor then they were guilty of no crime in killing her.

Unlawfully killing someone is a crime.

And By the way thats a fact and not an opinion-I can provide links to the law if you like.

true

gurramok wrote:

It was not just IRA murders. If you have a trawl through the list of victims, there were also murder of other innocents not just by loyalists but by so-called legtimate security forces where the murders are not classfied as crimes as its suits them.
Hardly a successful prosecution arose from those crimes but do you see political parties using these as political footballs for their own gain ?
Not one group has a monopoly on grief.

Noboby said the list of over 3000 victims of the troubles were all just IRA murders. Yes, I know there were murders by loyalists. Yes, I know not one group has a monopoly on grief ( but tell that to Mrs McAleese ).

Re "so-called legitimate security services", yes the security services on both sides of the border have shot people, usually though in self defence. There have been well highlighted cases where the circumstances are very controversial. If the IRA had not embarked on their "just war" / terrorism campaign ( depending on your point of view ) much would not have happened. And over 3000 people would be alive.

cdebru

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

SF are Socialist and Nationalist and

National Socialism anyone ?

If anyone from Ogra is watching - what is thier position on Proxy Bombs ?

actually they are socialist and republican

republican socialist James Connolly anyone?