[BBC News] Chuckies take ball; Go home

pete

IRA withdraws weapons commitment

The IRA has withdrawn its offer to complete the decommissioning process.
In a statement passed to the An Phoblacht newspaper, the organisation said it had taken the offer off the table.

Last year, the IRA said it would complete the decommissioning process within weeks and move into what it called a new mode.

The statement said the British and Irish Governments had tried the organisation's patience to the limit".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4231237.stm

No great surprise there, then.

Sand

Big deal, SF/IRA have consistently dragged their feet on anything asked of them - decomissioning, declaring the "war" is over, ceasing activity - all this is promised to occur at some later date in the future, when they feel like it and not before. Everyone else has to sign up to immediate deals, like the prisoner releases - which in hindsight should have been linked to major steps forward such as decommissioning, good behaviour on the part of the terrorist groups, etc etc.

Who cares that a vague commitment dependant on their less than respected word is not there anymore. If any deal is to be accomplished theyll bring it back, and if no deal is to be accomplished then nothings lost.

pete

quite a bit more detail on the RTE News site:

'The IRA has demonstrated our commitment to the peace process again and again. We want it to succeed. We have played a key role in achieving the progress achieved so far.

'We will not betray the courage of the hunger strikers either by tolerating criminality within our own ranks or false allegations of criminality against our organisation by petty politicians motivated by selfish interests, instead of the national need for a successful conclusion to the peace process'.

Mad Cyril

Sand wrote:

Big deal, SF/IRA have consistently dragged their feet on anything asked of them - decomissioning, declaring the "war" is over, ceasing activity - all this is promised to occur at some later date in the future, when they feel like it and not before. Everyone else has to sign up to immediate deals, like the prisoner releases - which in hindsight should have been linked to major steps forward such as decommissioning, good behaviour on the part of the terrorist groups, etc etc.

Who cares that a vague commitment dependant on their less than respected word is not there anymore. If any deal is to be accomplished theyll bring it back, and if no deal is to be accomplished then nothings lost.

Brendan O connor is almost definitely the worst journalist I ahve ever come across, and that includes Paul Williams

Johnny_the_fox

there goes the peace progress

mike65

Brendan O connor is almost definitely the worst journalist I ahve ever come across, and that includes Paul Williams

Eh?

Anyway, a paddywhack alright. Its all ME Me Me with the Provos.

I'll be interested to "understand" the internal republican dynamic at work. Did the IRA tell Gerry et al this was comming? Or or did Sinn Fein tell the IRA...etc!

Mike.

jbkenn

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

there goes the peace progress

What peace process?

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo

Do you remember the killings/bombings/attacks that took 10 years ago? If you do, you will know that there has been a difference since then and that is the peace process in action.

billy the squid

Chuckies take ball; Go home

lol

Now is anyone surprised by this. I mean, how long have the IRA been on "ceasefire" six, seven years? and they still have guns. they got their power sharing assembly, they got their talks between the irish and brittish government, they got their reformation of the RUC and what do they do. nothing

the "conflict " is making too much money for the IRA they have no intention of giving up that tity little earner of theirs.

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Do you remember the killings/bombings/attacks that took 10 years ago? If you do, you will know that there has been a difference since then and that is the peace process in action.

Oh you mean, the ritual song and dance, the tribal buffoonery, the decommisssioning soap opera, the punishment beatings the continued criminality, the innumerable historic breakthroughs, the false dawns, but most of all the blatant ignoring of the democratic wishes of the majority of decent minded people on this island. That peace process?

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo

It certainly is a ritual but to deny that we have had a huge step forward over the last decade is just bonkers. Maybe you can live easier the way it was in the '70s/'80s and early '90s?

cdebru

nothing new the IRA always withdraws from the decommisioning body once the talks break down

dahamsta

mike65 wrote:

Its all ME Me Me with the Provos.

As against ULSTER SAYS NO NO NO?

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It certainly is a ritual but to deny that we have had a huge step forward over the last decade is just bonkers. Maybe you can live easier the way it was in the '70s/'80s and early '90s?

My memory goes back to 1968, when the Civil Rights Movement started, and I can assure you it was'nt Sinn Fein who were in the front line, it was people like John Hume, Ivan Cooper, Austin Curry, Paddy Devlin and Gerry Fitt the founders of the SDLP

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo

jbkenn wrote:

My memory goes back to 1968, when the Civil Rights Movement started, and I can assure you it was'nt Sinn Fein who were in the front line, it was people like John Hume, Ivan Cooper, Austin Curry, Paddy Devlin and Gerry Fitt the founders of the SDLP

jbkenn

Good, use your memory and stop denying that we have had a peace process and the IRA has been on ceasefire (an imperfect one) for about a decade.

sceptre

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Good, use your memory and stop denying that we have had a peace process and the IRA has been on ceasefire (an imperfect one) for about a decade.

Good, they can have a medal (an imperfect one) for that. In my view, an organisation doesn't deserve adulation for deciding to stop murdering people one sunny morning. The people who managed to convince the thugs to stop using their guns may well (and in this case sometimes do) deserve some adulation and thanks for waking up their knuckle-dragging drinking mates to the idea that the democratic process, where possible, is a good thing to follow rather than putting bullets in people's heads (and/or kneecaps) but frankly they've lost a few brownie points for deciding they'll leave the process open to an armed struggle in the future (just in case you understand, the boys nmay decide that they don't fancy duck-hunting at some point in a few months, cough, cough, mind yerself now)

Yeah, we've had a ceasefire for the last few years. A few charmers (with guns) decided to move northern Ireland towards something that people should be able to take for granted but couldn't because of their actions. And today they took a little bit of that away again. One can harp on about how it's really the fault of government X or politician Y but the bottom line is that they took this decision to take away a little of the security honest innocent folk have begun to take for granted as something they should have as ordinary citizens and they took it away because they wanted to. That's what happened today in the PONeill typing pool.

Hobbes

I am less worried about the decomissioning and more worried about a return to violence.

A Dub in Glasgo

sceptre wrote:

Good, they can have a medal (an imperfect one) for that. In my view, an organisation doesn't deserve adulation for deciding to stop murdering people one sunny morning. The people who managed to convince the thugs to stop using their guns may well (and in this case sometimes do) deserve some adulation and thanks for waking up their knuckle-dragging drinking mates to the idea that the democratic process, where possible, is a good thing to follow rather than putting bullets in people's heads (and/or kneecaps) but frankly they've lost a few brownie points for deciding they'll leave the process open to an armed struggle in the future (just in case you understand, the boys nmay decide that they don't fancy duck-hunting at some point in a few months, cough, cough, mind yerself now)

Yeah, we've had a ceasefire for the last few years. A few charmers (with guns) decided to move northern Ireland towards something that people should be able to take for granted but couldn't because of their actions. And today they took a little bit of that away again. One can harp on about how it's really the fault of government X or politician Y but the bottom line is that they took this decision to take away a little of the security honest innocent folk have begun to take for granted as something they should have as ordinary citizens and they took it away because they wanted to. That's what happened today in the PONeill typing pool.

No one is asking you to have adulation. I am pointing out the futility of 'ignoring' the fact that we have had a peace process and ceasefire over the last decade.

Villain

Mod's can we have one Thread on the IRA statement and one on the Bank robbery, too many threads with the same topic here.


Done - swiss

swiss

I'm disappointed, though not surprised at this outcome.

This is clearly an IRA response to the worsening relations between Sinn Féin and everyone else, which originates primarily from the Northern Bank robbery, as well as the other myriad forms of criminality and brutality in which the IRA is involved. It seems clear to me that the IRA, in all this time was not serious about making any sort of meaningful progress towards ending violence or criminality, and certainly no progress in relation to putting its arsenal beyond use.

If anything, this has made it clear about what the IRA really stand for. If they refuse to accept that they are engaged in criminal activities, what hope do we have that the will is there to stop? A paradigm shift may be needed in that organisation before substantive progress is made. Appeasement, just as Neville Chamberlain discovered in the 1930's, simply does not work with certain organisations.

However, I love the delicious irony in this statement by Gerry Adams

"The two governments have opted for confrontation. They are engaging in the sterile politics of the blame game without any regard for the consequences,"

Villain

I'm very disappointed by the statement but not surprised, I think this was a pro-active statement before the IMC report which will probably recommend sanctions against Sinn Fein.

I do believe however that the IRA can't be declared guilty of the Northern Bank Robbery when we haven't seen one single arrest yet , or one single pound recovered. I mean if they are so sure why don't they lift a people and rattle a few cages.

The Taoiseach is going the wrong way about things here, instead of shouting at Sinn Fein he should be discussing how to get things back on track. Sinn Fein have worked hard to get the IRA to the position where they were about to disarm and it would be crazy to throw all that away because of the opinion of the PSNI Cheif and Garda Commisioner.

BuffyBot

"The two governments have opted for confrontation. They are engaging in the sterile politics of the blame game without any regard for the consequences"

High praise from an acknowledged master!

Sleepy

So if all offers are off the table, does that mean they're retracting their apologies for all the innocents they've killed?

The thread title is very apt.

daveirl

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cdebru

they sound particularly pissed off

could be a result of being blamed for something they did not do

I would imagine the leadership are under pressure to respond to the attacks on them

daveirl

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cdebru

new statement from the IRA

they seem very pissed off the two governments seem to have touched a raw nerve with the provos
lets hope it doesn't all go arseways

mike65

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4234475.stm

The IRA has warned the British and Irish governments "not to underestimate the seriousness of the current situation".

Irish state broadcaster RTE reported a fresh statement from the organisation on Thursday.

It follows a statement on Wednesday in which the group withdrew its offer to put its weapons beyond use.

The IRA continues to deny claims it was behind the £26.5m Northern Bank raid in Belfast.

Thursday's statement said: "The two governments are trying to play down the importance of our statement because they are making a mess of the peace process.

"Do not underestimate the seriousness of the situation."

Mike.

mike65

Did anyone listen to Martin Manseragh this morning, if he is giving SF short shrift (and he did) then things are not going anywhere until SF breaks the link with the IRA. Or the IRA disarm and stop robbing banks.

Mike.

gandalf

Threads merged. So then its business as usual for the Chuckies eh !

gandalf

Actually this now means that the Chuckies are rolling back on their commitments to the GFA agreement. Does that mean the murderers released under it can be rearrested and made serve the remainder of their terms?

Sand

Actually this now means that the Chuckies are rolling back on their commitments to the GFA agreement. Does that mean the murderers released under it can be rearrested and made serve the remainder of their terms?

I dont know honestly if thats what it legally means. Thats what it should mean, as the releases were dependant on ceasefires of the organisations they joined.

But given the haphazard fudged wording of everything relating to this deal I wouldnt be surprised if it wasnt legally possible to re-arrest these "community activists".

Either way, the governments should stay strong and maybe let it be leaked that theyre investigating the preperations that would be required to return the IRAs early release crinimals to jail to serve the remainder of their sentence. That and maybe entertain the possibility of the CAB launching the mother of all audits on anyone linked with the IRA, especially the Army Council. Remind the IRA why its in their interests to play nice.

true

Why are the chuckies not playing ball ? Is it too profitable to smuggle and steal ? Now they have all their members out of prison in the North are they just regrouping? Some watchtowers along the border have been dismantled, and the RUC has been replaced with the PSNI, with a far less effective special branch. Do the chuckies think they have got as much as they can and its time for the guns + bombs to come out? Lets hope not.

Did the presidents controversial remark a week ago encourage the chuckies at all ?
After all, if some of the chuckies enemies could be compared to the Nazis by the very President of Ireland, who could blame the chuckies for resuming their armed struggle ?
Perhaps the chuckies would have felt they had less of a mandate if the President had compared the Nazis to the provo. IRA instead?

m1ke

How can both governments be expected to pussy foot around the issue of criminality. The level of professional crime the IRA are involved with extends beyond just the bank robbery(and if you think they didn't commit the bank robbery you are simply a fool) - they run most of the organised crime(drug dealing, smuggling, racketeering etc...) on this island and give out the scraps to everyone else. Added to this the brutal punishment beatings on a regular basis.

Instead of acting in a more conciliatory manner as one does in a peace process, the IRA's actions simply confirm that their interests and institutional cohesion are served by a network of illegal activities that sustain their survival. The pillars of their organisation are 1)The political wing 2)The paramilitary wing 3)The economic wing(crime, fund raising). Without this pillar of activity(their economic base) the organisations dealing in soft power(SF) and hard power(paramilitary) support would become eroded.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Mighty_Mouse

<DEIRL>1. Tell the IRA they have vindicated the suspicious stance of the Unionists
2. Tell them they have let down the people who voted for the agreement.
3. Tell them that should they return to violence the GFA is null and void and every criminal we let out in good faith during the past 7 years is going back to finish their sentences.<DEIRL>

1. David, how in the name of god can you say the unionist stance is vindicated? They had no intentions of sharing power even with the IRA offering to announce disbandment.

2. I accept that if the IRA returns to war, then they can't not be part of the problem. But surely you must admit that the people who have let this agreement down time and time again for the last 6-7 years has not been republicans? Please in your bitter hatred of republicans at least accept the failings of the british & irish governments and most of all unionism.

3. What agreement? Where's the new agreement implemented? We have no power-sharing, no democracy (hence process towards complete social equality, right to express nationalism freely), no police force worth mentioning, continued opposition to fair investigations of colusion, continued oppression of catholics for marches, continued loyalist activity. I mean WHAT F.cuking agreement? All republicans are asking for is that the bloody agreement be fully implemented!

As for prisoner release's. Do you honestly think that republicans are really motivated by prison, seeing as they have been willling to take the chance of going there throughout the history of our nation.

daveirl

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Slutmonkey57b

Again, the republicans start to whinge that it's all "somebody else's fault" that they're threatening to start killing us again.

The Irish people voted, in a democratic referendum, that the IRA had no business threatening to kill us anymore. It's time SF and/or the IRA started getting it through their heads that being on ceasefire for the past few years is NOT something we should be thanking them for - it's our simple human rights not to be subject to vigilante justice. They should be thanking us for talking to them at all as opposed to spitting at them in the street for being murdering scumbags.

A Dub in Glasgo

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

The Unionists have never had any real intention in sharing power with SF. All the extra add-ons/bolt-ons/clarifications/demands/conditions have proved this.

billy the squid

gandalf wrote:

Actually this now means that the Chuckies are rolling back on their commitments to the GFA agreement. Does that mean the murderers released under it can be rearrested and made serve the remainder of their terms?

I would hazard a guess that they would be left free in the faint hope that the IRA might come back to the table. It would probably take another canary wharf type incedent to have them re-arrested again.

Slutmonkey57b

Note: I have no time for the unionists whinging that it's "all the republican's fault" either. Both sides are equally stupid. But the idea that the unionists had "no intention" of sharing power could have easily been proven true had the republicans done what the people of Ireland asked them to do - namely give up the guns. By not doing that they have effectivly handed the unionists all the excuse they need to stall things.

I repeat:
Both sides are equally stupid.

gandalf

To be honest here neither side in this are blameless. They are both like a nervous child who has outgrown his comfort blanket but is unwilling to let it go.

I am sick and tired of our time being taken up by people who cannot sort their own differences out like adults, I am sick and tired of our politicians having this problem used as an excuse to distract them from running this state and sorting out real problems like our pathetic health service and an infrastructure that is holding back our economy.

The really sad thing is that the Northern Irish Nationalist/Republicans have more in common with the Unionists up there than the majority of citizens of this country (with the exception of the apologists down here of course!).

As far as I am concerned there was an agreement in place, the IRA have now broken it (in multiple occurances) and therefore the people released based on this agreement should be re-imprisioned.

true

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Note: I have no time for the unionists whinging that it's "all the republican's fault" either. Both sides are equally stupid.

By republicans I take it Slutmonkey57b means the republican terrorists / IRA ?
Fianna Fail are republicans but nobody is blaming them , and rightfully so in fairness.

People who think it's "all the republican's fault" are not necessarily unionists.
I think everyone in these islands ( except Sinnn Fein / IRA), as well as abroad, wanted the provos to prove decommissioning by at least showing a photo or two, never mind actually giving up some guns, anti-tank missiles or semtex, but they refused to.

oscarBravo

In other threads I asked the question: what do the IRA want weapons for? The question was usually deflected with the non-answer that they have offered to decommission.

Now that the offer has been withdrawn and replaced with a thinly-veiled (nay, barely-veiled) threat, I reiterate the question: what do the IRA want with their weapons?

A Dub in Glasgo

The weapons are a bargaining tool to trade off for implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. They always have been in this process.

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The weapons are a bargaining tool to trade off for implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. They always have been in this process.

That's a rather blasé way of glossing over the real significance of the weapons. If you subsititute "threat of terrorism" for "weapons" in your first sentence, you begin to get a picture of what civilised people find distasteful about the IRA and their apologists.

A Dub in Glasgo

Maybe blasé to your good self but it is the truth. The truth is not nice sometimes and we do not live in a cotton wool wrapped world. The GFA effectively enshrined the principle of quid pro quo.

Blub2k4

A bit of proof regarding the robbery would have been nice. But it seems every one here is happy to believe the RUC with regards to this. Maybe if they applied the knowledge they have, which seems pretty certain if they deem it weighty enough to tell all and sundry, to secure a few convictions. Then come back and tell us the IRA are involved.
Normal standards of proof dont seem to apply in a post 9-11 world.

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Maybe blasé to your good self but it is the truth. The truth is not nice sometimes and we do not live in a cotton wool wrapped world.

I have this funny, idealistic, cotton-wool-wrapped concept of "negotiation" where various considerations are offered in various amounts, in exchange for various other considerations. Like haggling over a horse, say. There's give and take on both sides. Usually the outcome is both parties grumbling about being ripped off, but inwardly rather pleased at the outcome.

You seem to be comfortable with the "truth" of a world where negotiation means one party saying to the other: "I'm taking your horse, and in return I won't kill you and your family." To most right-thinking people, negotiations that involve the threat of force are nothing more than armed robbery.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The GFA effectively enshrined the principle of quid pro quo.

In my naive little world, "quid pro quo" doesn't involve threatening to kill, destroy and maim if I don't get my way. But hey, what do I know?

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote:

Now that the offer has been withdrawn and replaced with a thinly-veiled (nay, barely-veiled) threat, I reiterate the question: what do the IRA want with their weapons?

Maybe to defend the threat from the much larger armed loyalists who are still armed and no sign of disarming and would kill innocents at the drop of a hat.
PSNI/Army have too much blood on their hands to be effective against them ?
A nationalist living up there would give you a better answer rather than the likes of us living cosily in the south.

Mighty_Mouse

bigger than the Unionists and just disarm

They did.Fair and square under agreed terms...........as for "complete disarment". Its the old how long is a piece of rope thing.
What they did offer is disbandment, personally i think that check-mates the decommissioning problem

They could easily back them into a corner

come david. your a smart guy. Do you honestly think the goal post would of actually stopped moving long enough to get powersharing?

So why was the release of the McCabe murderers such a stumbling block?

Full implementation of the GFA was the stumbling block. the McCabe IRA guys was part and parcel of full and complete implementation.