Calling all Law students (esp. Law and German)

the smiley one

hey, I am currently a *lowly* 6th year student and have just realised that the 'oul CAO form needs to be filled in pretty damn soon, so I'm just looking for advice. I am thinking of doing law in some shape or form, and wondering what form that is goin to take......... So, I really love languages (and think I am good at them) so I would like to incorporate them with my degree. I was going to put down pure law and to the language course thingy (as you can see, I have done my research) on the side, but I was told at the open day that it's not that good and lots of people drop out.
Basically I want to know about the merits of doing pure law as opposed to law with german (or vice versa as the case may be), and maybe if someone is doing the optional language course with law they could rank it?
Also, what are the merits of doing law in trinners as opposed to doing law in UCD (as objective a view as possible, if that exists.....)

well I've finished my overly long and complicated post..........advise please?!

ApeXaviour

Not exactly what your looking for but if you'll just indulge me.. why exactly would you like to do law?

Do you want to become a solicitor?
Or do you just reckon you'd enjoy studying the subject?

dermot_sheehan

I've been doing pure law all along (I'm in 4th year), however I have seen people switch from Law and Language to pure Law. It's an easy enough conversion to do if you decide to make the switch before starting second year.

One of the advantages of doing pure law (or disadvantages of doing law and language), is that you get to take more law subjects and have more choice over them. In 3rd and 4th year you have to chose 4 subjects a year out of the list http://www.tcd.ie/Law/Courses.html#LL.B. here. You however have to take certain subjects like Equity and Jurisprudence to make you're degree eligible for the Kings Inns exams. If you intend on becoming a solicitor, then some subjects (like company) are strongly advisable as they are examined in the Fe-1 exams. Basically to keep the options of the Inns and blackhall open you have to do Equity, Evidence, Jurisprudence and Company in 3rd and 4th year. You therefore only have 4 subjects you can chose yourself.


If however you do Law and a Language, not only are you away in 3rd year, but you have to do Constitutional Law II in 4th year. This means you effectively have to decide whether you want to be a barrister or solicitor at the begining of 4th year. This situation is a mess as the Kings Inns made Jurisprudence a mandatory subject for recognised degrees last year.

The good news if you're doing German is that German Jurisprudence Courses are recognised by the Inns, so you could do a Jurisprudence course during your year away, you could then do all the required subjects in 4th year.

Pure Law students can also go away on exchanges during 3rd year, though their subject choices are again limited when they come back (they will however have done Constitutional II in 2nd year). Also it's easy enough to take a year of Law and a Language, and at the end of it, decide to move to pure law.


Re: UCD v. TCD. I have no experience of the UCD course, so I really can't comment it. In TCD however you're in for 4 years, so presumabley we cover more. Also you're surrounded by nice 18th and 19th century buildings instead of the urban wasteland they have in Belfield, you start college in mid-october..... <insert standard reasons TCD is better then UCD>

Evilution

gabhain7 wrote:

...urban wasteland they have in Belfield...

Now now, down with that sort of thing
Hey smiley one, if you're still curious, you could go to www.tcd.ie, browse to the law department and then maybe email one of the lecturers and ask them about it. TCD staff tend to be very receptive to queries like this, in my opinion.
Best of luck in the LC.

the smiley one

Thanks a milion for all the info - much appreciated! so basically I could do german and law for a year and then if I didn't like it I could make an easy transition......? sounds good

ApeXaviour wrote:

why exactly would you like to do law?

Ok this is an interesting question because I'm not really sure why I want to do law. I did a course in CTYI in legal studies and really liked it, and I enjoy more humanity based subjects, and I'm basically too much of a snob to do arts...........so I'm mulling over law (possibly psychology). Do you think my deduction is logical???! I'm a really indecisive person so I will never be definitely sure about any choice I make....and I feel I will enjoy law;I like debating, picking holes in arguments, am fair, and can always see both sides of the story...........are any of those traits necessary/useful? Do you think I would enjoy it (question esp. to gabhain7)???
I know you can't say categorically that I would/wouldn't, but maybe you could give me an insight into the mind of a good law studdent.

Thanks again for all the help, greatly in need of it!,

the smiley one

Evilution

the smiley one wrote:

...possibly psychology...

If you need any info on Psychology, just ask. I'm in 3rd year Psychology.

dermot_sheehan

Ok this is an interesting question because I'm not really sure why I want to do law. I did a course in CTYI in legal studies and really liked it, and I enjoy more humanity based subjects, and I'm basically too much of a snob to do arts...........so I'm mulling over law (possibly psychology). Do you think my deduction is logical???! I'm a really indecisive person so I will never be definitely sure about any choice I make....and I feel I will enjoy law;I like debating, picking holes in arguments, am fair, and can always see both sides of the story...........are any of those traits necessary/useful? Do you think I would enjoy it (question esp. to gabhain7)???
I know you can't say categorically that I would/wouldn't, but maybe you could give me an insight into the mind of a good law studdent.

Thanks again for all the help, greatly in need of it!,

the smiley one

It's impossible to know if anyone is suited towards a certain vocation. The advantage with a law degree though is after four years, you can go off and do something unrelated as it also functions as a good general degree.

As to whether you're suited, I don't know you so I don't really know. I don't even know how you can tell if a person is suited or not. Some general observations are that law students tend to be argumentitive types, some of whom do debating (or did debating in school, not wanting to get involved in the college politics inherent in college debating societies). Also the course has a very low dropout rate, nearly everyone who meets the entry requirements can keep up with the course work. The course itself is very interesting, and for pure law is only 8 hours a week.

ApeXaviour

the smiley one wrote:

Do you think my deduction is logical???!

They are fine reasons. The best advice I've ever recieved is to study something you enjoy studying rather than focusing on a particular career.

If you had answered solicitor I would have told you that (though it is helpful) a law degree is not necessary to become a solicitor.. Most degrees will do. I know a Genetics grad on her way to the four courts.

the smiley one

thanks for all the advice!
As some of you may have seen I've started a similar thread on the UCD board (to keep all the options open!) don't forsake me!!!
Anyway, I'm going to try and corrulate all info and make an *informed*

I'm also goin to take Evilution up on the offer to impart some knowledge about psychology to me. Is it interesting, hard? what type of people generally do it and what subjects did they enjoy in secondary school? Is it mainly scientific or arts based? anything else you can think of that might be helpful!!! (this was just a choice that popped into my head in the last while so I'm not very clued-up on it)

Evilution

Ok brother (or sister), here's the low-down.

the smiley one wrote:

Is it interesting, hard?

Well, its certainly interesting anyway. It starts off very broad in the first two years, and then in 3rd year you choose a number of options to do (I'm doing Behaviour Analysis, Human Sexuality, Political Psychology and Forensic Psychology). In 4th year you choose 4 options again, but also work on your final year project too. The class is very small, only about 25 people, which means that for most of the classes you get the chance to ask what you want, suggest what you want etc. You'll never ever feel lost in a crowd, unlike some of the poor UCD arts students.

the smiley one wrote:

what type of people generally do it and what subjects did they enjoy in secondary school?

Of the 25 or so people, there's a pretty big mix in there. Couple of foreign students, a few culchies (including me ) and the rest are from dublin really. The standard for getting in is pretty high too, its about the 6th or 7th hardest course in Ireland to get into. There is no hard and fast rule for what to study in school, but a good few people did biology and chemistry. The 2 girls from the UK did Psychology for their A-levels too. Also, believe it or not, Economics would be a good choice for leaving cert too because some of the subjects like Social Psychology and Political Psychology go into lifestyle marketing, maslows theory etc.

the smiley one wrote:

Is it mainly scientific or arts based?

Both, and a good bit of maths thrown in there too. Some of the subjects are quite theory based and could be seen in a certain light as artsy stuff. Then you do some philosophy in 1st year too. Then comes the stuff like Neuroscience and Evolutionary Psychology which are heavily scientific. I've also just started my module in Behaviour analysis today and its about the most scientific thing I've done in 3rd year so far. Very interesting though. As for the maths, we do a lot of statistics, probability and stuff like that. You only do that until 3rd year though, but by that time you'll have had your fill of it no doubt

the smiley one wrote:

anything else you can think of that might be helpful!!!

Well, because of the small classes, the department is very....intimate. That'd be the best way to put it. You get to know a lot of people very quickly and all the staff are A1 as far as being approachable is concerned. Some of them, like the Human Sexuality/Personality lecturer, are a great laugh too. In your first 2 years also you have to take part in a few experiments ran by either 3rd and 4th years or PhD students. This is a small requirement of the department, but won't take up any more than 2 hours per week so its grand. You're examined as follows:
Statistics - continuous assessment
All other subjects - Summer exams
Tutorials - Some essays, about 2500 words each, but you don't get many of them.
You get about 5 weeks holidays at xmas and rarely have to do any work over them.

Overall, I love the course and can't say enough good about it. I also have a small timetable, about 6 hours per week now. In first year, I only had about 13 classes per week too. Something similar in 2nd year. I'm also involved in a group project this year too which is investigating peoples sex lives; we'll be starting interviewing people in about 3 weeks or so. Great craic basically.

Anyway, PM me if you want to know any more about the course.

the smiley one

Its "sister" btw

All the info is great! unfortunately it just make my decision harder - ah!! why are there so many good courses out there??!

Just one more question for a pure law student: can you do a language module if you want to? how does that work, is it part of a degree (i know you can do it in UCD under the new "horizons" thing if it works in with your timetable - does trinity have something similar?)

dermot_sheehan

I believe you can do a language course (I know for definite there's a french one, not 100% about German) during the first two years. It get's you a diploma in awarded by the College (on a technical note the College awards diplomas, the University awards degrees).

Sleazus

As a first year (JF) Pure Law student, I can tell you it is a fantastic course here in TCD. Great hours, great lectures, great parties. Nice friendly environment. The class is big, that's the only problem, so it is possible to feel a little lost in the transition, but that's why you have tutors and your ever-faithful Law Soc.

I'd advise that, if you feel tempted to Law & German, you put it down on your CAO. Granted, they seem to have a whole lot of extra assignments and projects to do, but they're always out and about, so they can't be that studious. And if the workload gets you down, you can just transfer across to regular Law. Since you only miss out on one of the four core subjects, you should be able to catch up. I know several Law & French people who made the switch already, and they're well up-to-date at this stage.

Law should appeal to anyone who likes reading and research. The nature of the course is that it is broad and a large amout of learning is left to the pupil, though the lectures cover most of the material quite well. Law is one of the friendly faculties on campus - unless you try to cross them. Then you have angry lawyers on your back. But you have to do something incredibly stupid to get them irrate - like trying to group Law with Business and Jewish Studies. The Law Soc is a very large and particularly active group on campus, later this month we have George Hook, Mike Quinn and various other Irish sporting legends popping in for our annual sports debate.

So, in short, I'd say do Law if you enjoy History or English at a Leaving Certificate Honours Level, if you want to join one of the most respected faculties in the world, get a great degree, while having a good time.

The only real reason to leave is if you get Medicine in UCD on a recheck...

the smiley one

at the moment I'm leaning towards pure law but that sounds like good advice! The one thing I have neglected to mention is that I have an intense dislike for history........I dropped it at JC (I got an A in it, but it was kinda to spite the subject, don't ask). I find it quite hard to take in dates etc., but I can learn it if I have to......... But i love English! Will this be a big handicap?

Sleazus

No, what I meant was that if you enjoying being presented with relevant facts and drawing your own conclusions from them, you should enjoy Law. I used English and History as examples because they are the two largest LC subjects that require you to do that. Also, both are (at LC-level) heavily essay-driven subjects (as Law is, with up to 33% of your marks in some subjects going to your essay).

the smiley one

the smiley one wrote:

What you should do is come into Trinity and UCD on your time off: mid-term break. Send them an email asking to meeting up with them (could be lecturers, or someone else) from both Trinity & UCD. You could go into a few lectures too, no-one would know...

Evilution

Myth wrote:

What you should do is come into Trinity and UCD on your time off: mid-term break. Send them an email asking to meeting up with them (could be lecturers, or someone else) from both Trinity & UCD. You could go into a few lectures too, no-one would know...

Yeah, thats a good idea. I've often brought friends into lectures for them to have a look and a listen to what goes on.

Kappar

I'm studying Law in TCD. I think that everyone that has commented is right and really havn't anything to add. Just that I am really enjoy the course.

If you have any further questions just ask

Evilution

Kappar wrote:

I'm studying Law in TCD. I think that everyone that has commented is right and really havn't anything to add. Just that I am really enjoy the course.

If you have any further questions just ask

Ok. Whats the male to female ratio in the class? I'm lucky to be in Psychology where we've a 4:1 ratio of women to men.

Kappar

Evilution wrote:

Ok. Whats the male to female ratio in the class? I'm lucky to be in Psychology where we've a 4:1 ratio of women to men.

I am not sure exactly but there are alot more women, 65%+.

Evilution

Kappar wrote:

I am not sure exactly but there are alot more women, 65%+.

Whats your opinion on going out with people from your class? Good idea / bad idea?

Sleazus

In First Year Law, I thought it was closer to 80/20 myself...

e38418

doin criminology and criminal justice if ya want something a bit different...

xeduCat

You can get a language added to your transcript in Law if you do it as an extra (evening) course, but you can only do it for credit in third year, as a 'broad curriculum' option. If you do Law and German, you can do the same thing in fourth year, but not for German (same rules apply for Law and French).

Kevin_rc_ie

Whats your opinion on going out with people from your class? Good idea / bad idea?

bad idea. although i've no first hand experience. same college is even something i'd try to avoid. why? i think if your friends and gf/bf were all in the same college you'd become a bit mad.

Evilution

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

bad idea. although i've no first hand experience. same college is even something i'd try to avoid. why? i think if your friends and gf/bf were all in the same college you'd become a bit mad.

Personal space would be seriously compromised, ne pas?

Kevin_rc_ie

yeah, personal space. Also I think you'd kinda lose track of reality becuase you'd be living in a trinity/ucc etc. bubble. You need to meet regularly who aren't in college. it gives you a fresh perspective. Like in work, conversations about European space exploartion isn't a hot topic. not to sound snobbish.

Crash

on the other hand, DCU is a long way from Trinity - that gets to me sometimes.

Evilution

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

yeah, personal space. Also I think you'd kinda lose track of reality becuase you'd be living in a trinity/ucc etc. bubble. You need to meet regularly who aren't in college. it gives you a fresh perspective. Like in work, conversations about European space exploartion isn't a hot topic. not to sound snobbish.

Tell me this then - when you're out with your mates (non-trinity) at the weekend having a few drinks, do you actually talk about what you did in college that week etc.? What you learned, like?

crash_000 wrote:

on the other hand, DCU is a long way from Trinity - that gets to me sometimes.

Yeah, but distance makes the heart grow fonder...and the pocket grow emptier with all the travelling to and fro.

ApeXaviour

crash_000 wrote:

on the other hand, DCU is a long way from Trinity - that gets to me sometimes.

Huh?

Kevin_rc_ie

i'd guess crash's girlfriend is in dcu.

ApeXaviour

ah... feicim anois

Kevin_rc_ie

Tell me this then - when you're out with your mates (non-trinity) at the weekend having a few drinks, do you actually talk about what you did in college that week etc.? What you learned, like?

No. I don't see your point thou.

Oh Apex, concerning Crash and his alleged girl friend i was only guessing. Maybe he'll confirm when he's back on. Tell us how he met her and how much he loves her. And he can all sigh and go, that's sweet.

Nietzschean

Evilution wrote:

Tell me this then - when you're out with your mates (non-trinity) at the weekend having a few drinks, do you actually talk about what you did in college that week etc.? What you learned, like?

o i do, i love bringing up cryptography with people who failed maths in their lc's......


and i do believe the point was u would have exausted most things to talk about or well being around the same people all the time can be dull...variety is the spice of life...

Kevin_rc_ie

variety. or cinnamon.

Nietzschean

poo

Pet

variety is the spice of life...

Also, you do need some non-college types to keep your feet on the ground. There are times when I forget why I bothered with science when I could do some piece-of-piss arts course, that I'd be better at and wouldn't need to do any work for, but then I talk to friends who are already struggling in the "real world" and it reminds me that I will eventually need a decent qualification.

Evilution

SkyLynx wrote:

o i do, i love bringing up cryptography with people who failed maths in their lc's......

Who can fail LC maths???? Man, you keep some dumbed-down company.

SkyLynx wrote:

being around the same people all the time can be dull...variety is the spice of life...

true. true.

Pet

Who can fail LC maths???? Man, you keep some dumbed-down company.

People who aren't good at maths? They do exist you know. Did you pass every subject without any effort?

Evilution

Pet wrote:

People who aren't good at maths? They do exist you know. Did you pass every subject without any effort?

No dude, I studied.

Crash

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

No. I don't see your point thou.

Oh Apex, concerning Crash and his alleged girl friend i was only guessing. Maybe he'll confirm when he's back on. Tell us how he met her and how much he loves her. And he can all sigh and go, that's sweet.

methinks evilution is having a bad influence on you kev, you're getting bitterer here :P

and yes she is in DCU - and you can all go awww thats sweet etc. if you want, as kev suggests

Kevin_rc_ie

No I'm not bitter. I am always happy to hear about young people getting along in life and enjoying themselves and each other. I do think it's sweet too.

ApeXaviour

Jealous kev?

I am

Kevin_rc_ie

no. i'm not a jealous person.

Chick

ApeXaviour wrote:

Jealous kev?

I am

Jealous cos he has a girlfriend?? :eek:

Pet

Chick wrote:

Jealous cos he has a girlfriend?? :eek:

No, jealous because that bitch is keeping him from Crash.

the smiley one

*swerving this tangential eh........tangent back on topic*

Just a liccle post to say that I filled in my CAO today, seo a leanas the choices:

1st Law in TCD
2nd Law and German in TCD
3rd Law in UCD

But it is VERY possible that i will switch 1 and 2 (at least once) cuz i still have some stuff I need to research.
Thanks a million for all the help info and advice; no doubt that I will be calling on your expertise at a later date.
Only problem now is the 'oul LC........

Kevin_rc_ie

Good for you. It's good we got closure on this issue. Let us all sleep well tonight.

Evilution

the smiley one wrote:

1st Law in TCD
2nd Law and German in TCD
3rd Law in UCD

Bah, foiled, after my hard-sell on psychology.
Hope things work out for you.
Whats the expected points for Law this year?

arac

well I did the Bcl in Galway and it was a three year course, which I did enjoy, but when you get to the Blackhall exams tis a different kettle of fish altogether, also when you work in a solicitors firm you wonder why you busted your butt in college when alot of the stuff you learned will be largely irrelevant :eek: but anyways if your are sure that is what you want to do, by all means go for it, but its a long road, if you want to become a solicitor that stretches out for many a year beyond college!! I am not an authority on the bar

Nike_Dude

just in relation to some differences between law in TCD and in UCD. the degree in uc is 3 years and the one in tcd is 4 years so that means that you have less subjects each year in trinity (hence less lecture hours). Also in second year in tcd law students have to participate in a mooting course which doesnt happen in any other law school. Mooting is basically being given a problem, researching it and arguing your case in front of a panal of 'judges'.
Try law with german, because you can always change back if you dont like the german.