Smoker's rights

nesf

Ah yes, but read the full statement, Micheal Martin want's to change the ban for when the pubs serve food, to a total one! He want's to impose one on colleges by the end of the year as well as anywhere else at his discretion. Most of the proposals I can agree with, banning 10 boxs, imposing strict fines and banning ciggie machines, will all help stop under-age smoking. But I'm sorry, but he has no right to impose a blanket ban on smoking.

I found his statement funny, he goes on about all the smoking related deaths, am, if i'm not mistaken, isn't there more alcohol related deaths?? What about a blanket ban on that? Oh yes, drinking is still PC, I'd forgotten.

This move is pure discrimination. Any bill that effects the rights of an individual to participate in an exercise which is not harmful to others (i'll get back to this point), cannot, and should not be passed. But of course with the amount of misinformation these days every person is a doctor on the subject.

All the medicinal benifits are ignored, e.g. for ashmatics(sp??) with no reaction to cigarette smoke (like myself), smoking promotes deeper breathing, and can help the person's normal life. Also the passive smoking issue is amusing, look at all the people that go to the pub regularily, do you see them with smoker's coughs? And they are "apparently" a danger case.

"More and more people are fed up of going to the pub and coming home smelling of smoke"

I'm sorry, but I won't take that as a good enough reason to ban others from smoking. Shouldn't the "health" minister be encouraging ppl not to go to the pub? Oh yes I'd forgotten, the tax money made on drink...


I think this "The Public Health (tobacco) Bill" has no place in a democratic society. Whats next lads? A ban on alcohol in a few years? Who'd like to see that?

nesf

Quote from today's Irish Examiner:

"Being in a smoky atmoshpere for 30 minutes is the equivilant to smoking 100 cigarettes. Why haven't we seen these people become immediate junkies?"

He makes a good point.

Also with smoking one can only kill yourself, while alcohol can cause the deaths of others, or ruin the lives of entire families.

WhiteWashMan

YeeHaw!
porhibition lads!
whip out that moonshine!

lets face it, no smoker is going to go into a non smoking bar!
you will get non smokers going to a smoking bar.
ho hum, maybe we should all give up, get healthy, and save a lot of money.
would be nice...

LoLth

Actually, there was a non-smoking bar in Galway. It got lots of publicity. What wasn't publicised was the face that it went back to being a smoking bar because NO-ONE went in there.. including non-smokers.. the reason they went elsewhere was lack of atmosphere (no pun intended).

The Glenroyal in Maynooth has a no smoking section and it is always empty. even when people are jammed in the smoking side.

Great, have a no-smoking section yaaaay! But except for a legal requirement it's basically a waste of space. Moan and whine about smoke all you want, I don't blow smoke at people , especially non-smokers , on purpose. If you don't like the fact that I'm smoking, go sit in the non-smoker section.. make it worthwhile for pubs and bars to introduce them.

As for smokers rights.. all public gathering areas *must* have a non-smoking area. Why isn't this also enforced the other way? Pizza hut in Liffey valley is completely non-smoking!! WTF! It works both ways. I enjoy a cigarette after a meal, or while I'm waiting the 30 minutes for a waiter to turn up. To me, fair's fair. I don't smoke in cinemas, on buses, on trains, in no smoking sections, at work but somewhere should be provided for me to indulge in my habit in a place that's supposed to be meant for everyone. Didn't they ever hear of ventilation?

Catch_22

im a smoker have been for 8 years give or take, id be inclined to go further, ban em full stop. Make it illegal to smoke. It would be a ***** for smokers initially but if you couldnt get em you would get over it eventually. Smoking doesnt do anyone any favours.

Yes it would probably open up a black market, but i dont think it would last, smoking doesnt give enough of a thrill , buzz etc to sustain a black market of the level that cannabis, heroin etc would.

so in conclusion why not make pubs non smoking, if every pub was non smoking people will still goto the pub, its too ingrained in the culture not to.

my 2c

c22

C B

I posted something like this a few weeks ago but nobody took heed so here we go again.

Smokers deserve to be taxed for a number of reasons.
1. Public health information needs to be provided and those who shpuld pay for it are current smokers.
2. Smoking causes increases health expenditure and smokers should pay for this.
3. Smoking causes a degree of "unpleasantness" for third parties and these third parties (society at large) need to be compensated.

If taxation covers these three negative affects, why should smokers be stopped from smoking?

It isn't reasonable to demand that smokers pay extra tax due to the negatives and then not allow them inflict those negatives. It's a case of having our cake and eating it on behalf of the non-smoking community.

JustHalf

Some of the negative effects that smokers cause are of the nature that no person should believe that money can compensate - unless money matters a *bit* too much to them, in my opinion.

Let us suppose public smoking adversely affects my health. Will tax garnered from their habit really make me feel adequately compensated for any illness I suffer as a consequence? No. Frankly, I'd prefer to be healthy as opposed to being treated for free.

The argument that "if you don't like smoking in bars, well then don't go to them" doesn't really hold up very well. If people can't go to a bar to socialise, where are they going to go? It's unfair. Equally unfair is imposing a blanket ban.

Personally, I go to friends' houses/parties, but some people don't have that freedom - not only that, bars are a good place to meet people and to hold group gatherings.

The Sweeper

High ceilings, top grade air conditioning and excellent ventilation are the answer. I find that unless you're in an aulfellas pub the likelihood is that you wont be sitting beside someone who's lighting each fag off the previous and has two unopened packs on the table.

Some of the bigger bars in the city centre of Dublin have the right idea...

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It's never too late to have a happy childhood.

nesf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LoLth:

As for smokers rights.. all public gathering areas *must* have a non-smoking area. Why isn't this also enforced the other way? Pizza hut in Liffey valley is completely non-smoking!! WTF! It works both ways. I enjoy a cigarette after a meal, or while I'm waiting the 30 minutes for a waiter to turn up. To me, fair's fair. I don't smoke in cinemas, on buses, on trains, in no smoking sections, at work but somewhere should be provided for me to indulge in my habit in a place that's supposed to be meant for everyone. Didn't they ever hear of ventilation?</font>

I agree completely, in UCC for instance in the main canteen, there is a tiny smoking area. Now, because it's close to the door, it's always filled with non-smokers. I'm sorry but I like a cigarette after my meals, but I'm unable to do so because of there being no space to sit in the smoking section. Now I'm the kind of person who never smokes in a non-smoking area. I'll even refrain from smoking in a restaraunt if there is a very young child at the next table, out of consideration for the effect it might have on the child. But I can't stand this anti-smoking attitude some ppl have. I'm sorry but it's my choice if i smoke, I don't like friends and family members annoying me over it, never mind the government seeking to stop me altogether.

Micheal Martin wants to have a tobacco free nation within the next 3 years, I'm sorry but it's not his or any non-smokers choice. If the smokers want to quit then fair enough, but no-one has the right to stop them from smoking unless they own the property that the person is on. Public places are just that, now there is a good argument for non allowing drink to be consumed outside of pubs or one's home, for peace and noise reduction reasons, and also to limit non-drinking. But to stop someone smoking on the street? I'm sorry but there is no good argument to stop that. And if you argue the butts on the pavement, I'll merely point out that it's rare when an alternative is provided. Putting a recently quenched ciggie into a bin is a fire hazard.

I think this has far more important consequences than smoking though. If we allow the government that level of control over what we can do to ourselves, then whats next on the agenda?

Shiminay

Not too sure on a blanket ban - I'm not a smoker and I don't like the smell and smoke as a result of a smoker.

The ban with places serving food is a great idea.
My college used to be exclusivly non-smoking. Then, by popular request, it allowed smoking in the common room and most of the canteen. The canteen went from being a nice, clean environment to a smoke filled, smelly undesirible place, so I'd be all all for a blanket ban in schools and colleges too.

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All the best!
Dav
@B^)
So Bob Hoskins was about to roll a spliff when in walks Dana with her 3 foot Bong
[honey i] violated [the kids]
When the Beefy King arrives, I shall be paying homage with Puunack The Receiver in a haze of green curry.

Miguel_Sanchez

Has anyone else noticed the non-smoker attraction that smoke has? If there's a non-smoker at a table with five smokers the smoke from the first cigarette that's lit will always drift right into the non-smoker's face.

I'd support a blanket ban everywhere except for a person's own home. I think you should be able to do what you like in the privacy of your own home as long as it's not harming someone else.

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**** sympathy! I don't need your ****in' sympathy, man, I need my ****ing johnson!

Trojan

This has probably been said before, but my opinion is that there should be extremely harse laws about the amount of smoke allowed in a place, and that high-powered exactor fans to high specification must be installed to solve that problem.

I was at a pub opening in Swords (it was the new lounge in The Big Tree) last week, and we were talking to one of the co-owners who was there. He's a non-smoker and pointed out the 7 high-spec'd fans (best on the market he said in fact) just over the center of the room. There were also fans in all the corners, and they did a great job.

I am not terribly concerned about passive-smoking, but I really hate the stench of cigarettes off seemingly clean clothes, and it's unpleasant when you're eating too...

My .254 euros...

Al.

Kix

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jeff_Lebowski:
Has anyone else noticed the non-smoker attraction that smoke has? If there's a non-smoker at a table with five smokers the smoke from the first cigarette that's lit will always drift right into the non-smoker's face.</font>

Absolutely, it's spooky.

I'm a smoker but I'm generally all for repressive measures. Still, I'd hate to see a blanket ban on smoking in pubs and restaurants. If they bring that in then I'll probably never go out anymore.

I heartily support non-smoking areas and even non-smoking pubs, if people want them - though the experience is Galway is that they don't - just don't ruin it for everyone who still enjoys mixing their drugs.

Live and let live.

K

p

"But to stop someone smoking on the street? I'm sorry but there is no good argument to stop that."

Here's a question. If you were walking along the street and someone got an aerosol and started spraying it at you from abotu 3 metres would you find it annoying and offensive.

Well guess what, that's what smoking is like to me.

"I heartily support non-smoking areas and even non-smoking pubs, if people want them - though the experience is Galway is that they don't."

That was one single experiment. It doesn't mean that it's doomed everywhere.

I think that there's a damn lot of people who don't like being in smke filled areas. I would love a non-smoking pub, but due to people often having one smoking person in a group who can't sit down without a smoke for awhile they'd convince someone in the group to sit in the smoking area.

That's the problem. However I think non-smoking sections and proper ventillation in pubs would be excellent.

What i'd give to go out and not have smoke in my face all night.

- Kevin

[This message has been edited by p (edited 02-08-2001).]

nesf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by p:
"But to stop someone smoking on the street? I'm sorry but there is no good argument to stop that."

Here's a question. If you were walking along the street and someone got an aerosol and started spraying it at you from abotu 3 metres would you find it annoying and offensive.

Well guess what, that's what smoking is like to me.

</font>

Wtf? I hate these over-the-top, sensationalist images used by non-smokers. Have you ever been sprayed in the face with an aerosol? It has no resemblance to someone blowing smoke in your face.

Regardless I fail to see how someone spraying an aerosol in your face, and someone smoking a cigarette can have in common, the quantities, material involved, their behaviour in air of both, etc et al. In open air smoke is dispersed very quickly, for the most part.

Anyways I agree that proper ventalation would be an excellent solution, as it would not infringe on anyone's rights, as opposed to a ban.

Shinji

Crack down on where you can smoke at all, and then let people smoke whatever the hell they like in those places there.

I like this idea.

Victor

Well post more responsibly later, but ban 'er, ban 'em all.

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Kill, kill, kill the laser mice.

chernobyl

Smoker's have no right with me, a system like cali would be great.

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Ashley...if only

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

FreaK_BrutheR

I think that a pub should have the right to not allow smoking on their premises and vice versa. That is all. It worries me not a jot.

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_ _ _ _ _________ _ _ _ _
<A HREF="http://homepage.eircom.net/~cullenm&quot; TARGET=_blank>

</A>
http://run.to/pile

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

nesf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chernobyl:
Smoker's have no right with me, a system like cali would be great.

</font>

This i can't understand. Why would we have no rights?


I can sympathise with the contacts issue daveirl, I wear tham also, and it can be panful taking them out after a ngt out.


[This message has been edited by nesf (edited 02-08-2001).]

solo1

I don't smoke, so I'm one of those people who find smoke drifting towards them from three tables away.

I think people should be allowed the choice of whether they can smoke or not, as long as they keep it away from me, especially when I'm trying to eat something. It makes me feel sick.

I also feel that the situation cannot be related to that of alcohol, although I do not drink either. I would have no objection to someone drinking beer right in front of me at any time. Why would I? It doesn't impinge upon me in any way whatsoever. So that's a completely different case.

nesf

There was a letter in the irish examiner yesterday that read something like.. They should ban all smoking in public places and in bars like in California.

Now I'm sorry but wtf? I couldn't agree with that. Any other opinions?

JustHalf

Well, I'm going to respond in line with the title of the topic.

Smoker's have rights, as do non-smokers. These rights are one and the same. Both groups should respect the rights of the other.

A non-smoker should respect the right of a smoker to poison themselves. A smoker should respect the right of a non-smoker not to be poisoned by their smoke.

Personally, I'd ask for special consideration to be given to bars that declare themselves non-smoking: tax-incentives, ease of gaining a licence, etc. A ban is a tad draconian.

klong

i think, like JustHalf, that banning smoking in public places is draconian. perhaps pubs could have nights when people could smoke, others when they could not, or they could install powerful air conditioning systems which would blow away all the smoke [but not blow out the fags]

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The Boss

Shinji

Indeed, blowing out the fags would break discrimination laws :P

I saw that this proposal has been watered down into a ban on smoking in pubs where food is served... Now that I'd support. I'm not a tobacco smoker myself but I've been known to like a cigar or whatever after a few pints, so I don't agree with stopping the whole kit'n'kaboodle; however, if I drop into a pub for lunch, not having a smoky atmosphere would be a bonus.

klong

yep- it'd be great to be able to see your fellow drinking partners instead of hearing voices through a fog of smoke.....
i myself prefer the comforting taste of tobacco in my dublin bay prawn et al.

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The Boss

ConUladh

I'm a non-smoker, pubs don't bother me, anywhere I'm eating does but I'd agree with this part of what Catch22 is saying:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">if every pub was non smoking people will still goto the pub, its too ingrained in the culture not to.c22[/B]</font>

Come to think of it I find it most irritating when I'm walking down the road but a complete ban isn't feasible at this stage

LoLth

Well... Fat people bother me. They really bug me.

They are obese. They are unhealthy. They are a danger to others... if one falls on you you are much more likely to be injured. Their body mass exceeds the safety designs for most doorways and clearways on planes, in offices etc. They cannot move as fast as they should and therefore are a liability in times of emergency.

Fat is bad for your health.
Obese people tend to die younger.

People who eat too much fatty foods run the risk of heart disease. And push up the health bill.

BAN FOOD FOR FAT PEOPLE EVERYWHERE!!

wtf?

Smokers can be selfish sometimes and smoke when they know it is annoying or affecting someone else.
Non-Smokers can be just as annoying and whinge when they know the smoker has a right to smoke.

Smoker in pub first... non-smoker.. you don't like it, go somewhere else.
Non-smoker in pub first.. smoker arrives, should be willing to put it out if asked or they should go somewhere else.

As for the street. Someone deliberately blows smoke in my face (and they'd have to have some pair of lungs to do it from three feet away while in the open air!) then I would complain. It's rude and disrespectful.. even to another smoker. I and 9/10 smokers in Ireland do not walk down the street deliberatley blowing smoke at passers-by.

Ventilation is the best solution but perhaps the pubs are unwilling to pay the expense?

PS. Pub in maynooth college had a high ceiling so smoke was never a problem.

pps. the galway pub was not one example, there were two of them. Also, more recently there was a pub in dublin (I forget names but I saw a news report on RTE about it).
Castletown Inn in Celbridge used to have a no-smoking section. it's been dropped to two tables in the corner because no-one ever used it.

Ventilation would cost the pub less in the long run than the revenue lost due to tables being set aside for specific clientele.

Hobbes

I think they should ban them completly.

They were listing the toxins in one cigerette. Some of them are so toxic that you can't even dispose of the stuff normally without people in spacesuits.

Anyone who's a non-smoker who thinks smoking in pubs is fine is on drugs. I can tell you now I much prefer the non-smoking in pubs to smoking.

Then you also have the mindset of the cigerette companies that actually believe killing thier customers is good for the encomny.

red_ice

Your all just gelous coz smoking is cool and you know it

Na, i smoke, and i hate it...
Im good at giving up though, hey ive done it a thousand times

Red.