Aerothermal

yop

Lads

Has anyone come across this type of heating??
Cannot find much in the net.


Thanks

wideband

Hi
never heard of that one....you sure its not aeroboard your thinking off.

yop

"you sure its not aeroboard your thinking off."

No for sure it is Aerothermal heating

The details of it that I know is that instead of your ground loop (geothermal) you have a unit with fans outside that take in the air, this is passed to a heat pump that extracts the heat out of the air. They are suposidly a lot more efficent but I cannot find any cost details, efficency ratings or anything to tell me that aerothermal is better than goethermal or vice versa.
I know sweco in Ireland do this heat pump but I am finding it hard to get anyone else

Goll Mac Morna

I was looking at an aerothermal unit form SWECO also. I am building a new house later this year and have been checking out all different types of heating options.

Initially I had looked at geothermal, it seemed very attractive i.e. no fuel to "buy in" like oil gas etc. just run your house on electricity and the heat extracted from the ground using a compressor. (1 unit of electricity will give you 4 units of heat, works the same as your fridge etc. etc. )
I went totally off the idea a couple of months ago when I spoke to a man who was selling a heat pump at an exhibition he was talking about costs of something like €17,000 or €21,000 for installation I think ( this included the underfloor heating (approx €8,000) according to a number of quotes I have received)
Another factor that put me off Geothermal was the groundwork involved, -expensive .

Then I came accross SWECO and their AEROTHERMAL units.

The details of it that I know is that instead of your ground loop (geothermal) you have a unit with fans outside that take in the air, this is passed to a heat pump that extracts the heat out of the air. They are suposidly a lot more efficent but I cannot find any cost details, efficency ratings or anything to tell me that aerothermal is better than geothermal or vice versa.



I was tempted by the aerothermal unit, just fit it to your garage flick on the power and forget about it.
It extracts "heat" from the air and can still extract warmth from the air at -5C
or something like that so it is suitable to use in the mild irish weather.
It runs on 1.3KW so the cost per hour for using it would be €0.13 (cost of electricity per hour) X 1.3.
You could work the cost of the heating you need with some simple maths (hours of use X cost to run per hour)
e.g. when you come home from work until bed ? some heating in the morning? is the house vacant during the day = no heat. what about the months May-Sept. usually when we need practically no heat.

This might seem a bit over the top to be trying to "cost" heating requirments, but we do spend alot of time in our homes particularly in th cold winter...we are conscious about m.p.g. with cars we might as well get to be the same with house.
BTW the cost of the 1.3KW AEROTHERMAL heat pump is €8,000 installed.

The best way to counter all expense involved in heating is to apply passive solar ideas to house designs if building a new house and to insulate well above the standards outlined in PART L of the most recent building regulations....with loads of insulation and good orientation a house in ireland should need very little heat (how cold have the last number of winters been?)

For what it's worth I myself I most likely going to install a pellet stove or boiler with radiators (faster response than underfloor heating= more suitable to Irish climate)

Borzoi

yop wrote:

"you sure its not aeroboard your thinking off."

No for sure it is Aerothermal heating

The details of it that I know is that instead of your ground loop (geothermal) you have a unit with fans outside that take in the air, this is passed to a heat pump that extracts the heat out of the air. They are suposidly a lot more efficent but I cannot find any cost details, efficency ratings or anything to tell me that aerothermal is better than goethermal or vice versa.
I know sweco in Ireland do this heat pump but I am finding it hard to get anyone else

Aerothermal will be cheper to install as there won't be any expensive groundworks to do. Disadvantages are that you need to pay for the fans to run - so you loose efficiency there. But far worse is that unlike Geothermal, where your effectively working off a constant ground temp of 10C approx, Aero works off air temperature. The implication of this is that as the air temperature decreases, your heating capacity will decrease, and it's efficiency will also decrease - all this when you need your heating system the most!

to give an example, a 2HP unit
Running at +5C Evap - Heating capacity 5.9kW, Coeff of Performance 3.27
Running at -10C Evap - Heating capacity 3.65kW, Coeff of Performance 2.18

The first condition, would roughly be for a geothermal (all year), and aerothermal when it's 10-12C outside, the second condition would be an aerotherma on a very cold day -2C say.

Coeeficient of performance in this case is the ratio of heating energy, to electrical energy the unit uses.

yop

Okily lads,. thanks for the info.
I am still unsure of which I will got to .
I was all up for Geo - cost was 9600 installed inclusive of excavations.
I am also going for UFH (under floor heating), I got all the materials, tools, training manuals, CAD layouts, for 4400k Euro, so will be doing this myself.
So my costings for Geo + UFH will be 14k.

The Aerothermal - I have 2 different companies I am talking to SWECO and SYSTEMLINK.
Both do GEO and AERO.
I have also googled and it seems that AERO is cheaper to install but dearer to run and u cannot gurantee the heat in the air BUT SWECO reckon they can give u the full domestic water using this D/X system without the need for expensive heat plates.
SYSTEMLINK want to charge me 120 EURO per year maintenance, I think not!!

Based on what ye know, if ye had an site of an acre, in other words ye had the room, what would ye do?
I take it that GEO is dearer to install but cheaper to run?
AERO is cheaper to install but dearer to run?

The thing with GEO is that it takes its hear from the area around the pipes, so SWECO reckon that the hear from around the pipes in the ground will be used up quickly in the winter, then it will not be as efficicent until the summer until the sun reheats the ground?
What ye think

Does anyone know of anyone who has installed either system?

I have talked to a few who have the GEO installed, all very happy, without doubt you save money as opposed to oil but if there is a big difference between the runnin cost of GEO and AERO I would like to know it,

thanks

antoinolachtnai

I know nothing about it, but I have to say that EUR 120/year for maintenance isn't bad, if it is a somewhat unusual system, you are a bit out of the way (you're not in Dublin 1 if you have an acre to play with!) and you are making a big saving on fuel costs. I usually end up blowing 60 or 70/year on our fairly conventional oil system (although the gas system I operate is a bit less than that, because I am cheap and only service it every few years). Still, to each his own ...

yop

Ya down here in the West!
I think I will be going Geo as I cannot find enough of information on the air 2 air solution

Mark0

Hi Yop

Sounds like we are both thinking along same lines.......like you I am thinking of geothermal heat pump, air to water heat pump or wood pellet. Will probably go for geothermal heat pump.
However the electrician says the 12kw load of the heat pump is too high................do you know anything about that?
Will you be getting hot water from the heat pump too?

yop

Marko - Good job lad,

Ya I think it is alright, as I said in the other thread we have 10kw. Exact same setup as you with UFH, BUT we are building Timber Frame so this might make a difference.
Some of the GEO guys spew awful crap, I am no expert but they try and pull the wool over your eyes!
Ya we are adding a "Domestic Hot Water Kit" option to ours, we are looking a 9.5K Euro for our GEO

slayer92

Hello,

Have just purchased one of the aerothermal unit from Sweco. Main reasons were:

Site unsuitable for Geothermal(lots of rock)
No expensive groundbreaking costs.
Aerothermal unit will provide hot water for underfloor heating and domestic hot water.


I know someone who has installed one and he is very happy with it. In fact one of the problems with the unit was that the domestic hot water was too hot!!!
I intend to run U/F downstairs and radiators upstairs. (If anyone is look at radiators, look at the low temperature one from an Irish company in Cork (www.farmersjournal.ie/housing2004/innovativeheating.pdf)

The unit is designed to have max efficiency down to 5 deg C. Below that the system efficiency falls off but remember there a electrical backup of 3 x 3kw heaters. These can be brought in and out as the temperature goes below 0 deg C. I live near Shannon airport and checked their met record for the last number of years and the amount of times the temperature goes below 5 are far and few between.

Hope this helps

Regards

slayer92

yop

Excellent Slayer, what size of a house do you have do you mind me asking??
What sort of cost was it to install??
Would you have gone with GEO IF u have the ground??

slayer92

Yop,

Sorry about the late repy, but dial up internet was down for the last few nights!!
The size of the house is 2700sq feet, with underfloor downstairs and radiators upstairs.
Would I have gone for the GEO if I had the ground, tough one!! I think I would have still gone for the Aerothermal mainly because of the cheaper installation costs. I expect actual running costs to be a bit lower than expected due to the night rate
Regarding the costs, a group of 4 negotiated a group discount with supplier, so it would be unfair to everyone to post the price, but suffice to say it was below €10k
My friend with unit is expecting his first winter ESB bill running this unit so I will post again with any relevant details

Regards

slayer

yop

Cheers Slayer, thanks for the info.
So roughly 10k to install the Air 2 Air solution. That is similar to Dunstars quote for the Geo.
I am still not decided ! Bleeding decisions!

zep

Marko,
The 12Kw is the output of the heat pump, the input requirements are only about 1/4 of that.... thinking of Geo myself and all enquires even with my sparks, have all indicated that there will be no issues.

Yop,
Hows it going? Have been looking at the data you sent me a while back in relation to you quotes for Geo... Mine are quite similar. Except my ground floor aea is slightly smaller that your, 400Sq Feet. Warmfloor quote for this section was 5,900 for supply of 1178Meters of pipe..... Quite a bit more than yours. Anyhow I see your getting the piping etc for 4,400? is this right? Are manifolds etc included in this? My investigation so far has led me to believe that Nibe supply the best overall heat pump. Highest Cop at 4.8 so i've discovered. Any more info you have would be greatly appreciated.

Steve

pollyantic

Are there any noise issue with aerothermal heating?
By the way does anyone have any links to websites with info on it.
In google all i get back is science and nasa stuff.

yop

Steve
No bother I hope the info helped.
What I can do is send you the quote I got from underfloordirect.co.uk and you can have a look at it. Seems excellent quote to me, of course you have to be daft enough to actually undertake installing it yourself!!! Where you based sure I can give u a hand/fup it up for ya
Warmfloor quoted me 7800k so you got urs cheaper???



"My investigation so far has led me to believe that Nibe supply the best overall heat pump. Highest Cop at 4.8 so i've discovered. Any more info you have would be greatly appreciated"
Ok, to be totally honest I have done little comparions down the the COP level, did you look at Solterra / Dunstars solution, the reason I ask is that they are the current front runner for me but if you have comparison charts from the other I would appreciate if you could compare Dunstars heatpump also.

"Are there any noise issue with aerothermal heating?"
I could not tell you lad, Slayer???


"By the way does anyone have any links to websites with info on it.
In google all i get back is science and nasa stuff."

that is gas, I got the same crap alright, I searched for 2 solid nights and got nothing concrete, I wanted an "independent" view so I contacted a few Universites who did projects and also SEI, no one came back to me.

The main suppliers here in Ireland are www.sweco.ie and www.systemlink.ie

zep

Yop,
The price of 5,900 was for ground floor only, it was 2,600 for first floor. As stated my gaf is only 2,100 SQ Foot. Less than yours, and my heat pump was 14.2 ish Kw from memory..... as compared to your 10.????Kw one. I'm aware there may be a slight diff with timber frame but not that much. As I said the quoted for 1178Meters of pipe for Ground floor and 610ish meters for first floor. The 1178 seem excessive compared to yours and even quotes from other companies. I'm based in Kildare, a bit away from yourself, but cheers for the offer of help. The pipes supplied are quite flexaBLE so there should be no real issues with a self install. Patients and attention to detail should be key. I'd be greatful for a look at your quote as stated.
Cheers,
Steve

yop

Ya that is a bit mad alright.
I am down for 670 metres for ground and 410 metres for 1st floor!
These guys will supply you CAD drawings and a manual with full pictures.
PM me ur email and I will forward it to you.

I checked my quote there and I have a requirement for 11.53 KW , that includes domestic hot water, so they have me down for a 12kw heat pump, sorry don't know where I got 10kw!

slayer92

Regarding the noise issue, the fans units run very quiet, no louder than a fridge!!

Regards

slayer

Mark0

Latest quote for Nibe geo heat pump 10kw, combined with hot water cylinder, to provide domestic hot water all in one unit.....€11,500.......
...1800 sq/ft to heat. Quote seems high to me.......nice unit though.

yop

Marko
Does that include a thermal store or buffer tank by any chance?? Could be the reason it is high.

Send on your details to the other companies and see what they come up with

Wobs

Hi Lads,

Got a quote today over the phone from Sweco for a Aerothermal heat pump (14kw) €15,500. This was installed. Also have to send plans for a firm quote.

Sounds expensive compared to qoute from Nibe for a 13kw geo & 285L cylinder for €7755. supply only or €7000 for a 10kw with built in cylinder with 160L capacity.

Would installation and ground works make up the difference of €8000??

pollyantic

Wobs wrote:

Hi Lads,

Got a quote today over the phone from Sweco for a Aerothermal heat pump (14kw) €15,500. This was installed. Also have to send plans for a firm quote.

Sounds expensive compared to qoute from Nibe for a 13kw geo & 285L cylinder for €7755. supply only or €7000 for a 10kw with built in cylinder with 160L capacity.

Would installation and ground works make up the difference of €8000??

Surely there's not much insatallation attaching aerothermal to an existing heating system or can you even do that?

yop

Wobs wrote:

Hi Lads,

Got a quote today over the phone from Sweco for a Aerothermal heat pump (14kw) €15,500. This was installed. Also have to send plans for a firm quote.

Sounds expensive compared to qoute from Nibe for a 13kw geo & 285L cylinder for €7755. supply only or €7000 for a 10kw with built in cylinder with 160L capacity.

Would installation and ground works make up the difference of €8000??

Jaysus that is high!! no way would it cost 8k for installation and ground works!

Your ground works should take a maximum of a day so at say 8hr @ 75 Euro per hr for 2 days you are looking at 600 notes for groundwork.

Over the last 10 days I have talked to a number of companies, some supply on Geo, some supply both Aerothermal and Geo, I also talked to a professor in a Uni, all told me that the that the Aero is not as efficenent as Geo, when the air temp drops it really bites you as far as cost goes and that IF I had the ground that if they had the choice they would go with GEO.
Aero is fine for areas where you do not have the ground available.

Wobs

Thanks Yop,

Thats what I thought. Have the ground and in-laws have a JCB so ground works are no problem anyway. Will def be going with Geo.

yop

Lads
Got my quote of systemlink for the Aerothermal solution, 8000 Euro EX VAT (9680 INC)
That was for a 7.5 KW heatpump.
To be honest that is a high price for a low sized heatpump.

For my geo the cost is 9500 INC VAT & Installation, Ground works estimated at 600 Euro.
This is for a 10kw heat pump + domestic hot water kit.

The charts they gave me show that the heating costs for the GEO is €320 per year and the Aerothermal is €360.

It also states that the cost per KW is dearer with a Geothermal (COP 4.4) that Aerothermal (COP 4)

So I am still not 100% sure to be honest what I will do!!!

Pataman

Was at the my home at the rds last week. There were a few companies promoting aero heating. I was talking to one supplier who said the most important thing was to upgrade the insulation to a min 25cm. Thats nearly 10" of insulation. Thats one hell of a stud wall.
Yop do you have any info about which method of geo is better, bore hole or undersoil. I am quite limited so will have to go for 2 bore holes.

yop

Bore hole will work out much more expensive to install as you have to drill, could be roughly 1.5k to drill the hole alone!

Pataman

I know but the back garden isnt that big. Incidentally if I go down the road of under soil, how deep does it go?

Pataman

Have a look at www.passiv.de

yop

The pipes are down 3ft