SF critical of decision to change guidelines for IKEA

Raskolnikov

http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6785

SF critical of decision to change guidelines for IKEA
Monday, January 05

Sinn Féin spokesperson on the Environment, Arthur Morgan TD, has strongly criticised the decision of the Cabinet today to agree to change retail and planning guidelines so as to allow Swedish furniture giant IKEA open an outlet several times larger than current maximum permitted.

Deputy Morgan said, "It is not only incredible but absolutely unacceptable that Government retail and planning policy should be dictated by a single furniture retailer. This is one of the most craven decisions made by this Government and represents a worrying trend whereby large corporations are now calling the shots in terms of policy direction.

"Minister Roche may try and dress it up in the language of 'consumer rights' and claim there are restrictions to accompany the new guidelines but the reality is this decision was taken by a weak Government and even weaker Minister because they crumbled in the face of intense pressure from IKEA.

"This decision will represent the thin end of the wedge and will ultimately allow the likes of WalMart, with its notorious and appalling employer record, enter the Irish market. Slavishly following the US model of building massive out of town retail/warehouse outlets will have a detrimental effect not only on smaller and indigenous retailers, who have abided by the current guidelines, but will also have a massive effect on local communities and the environment.

"Ballymun does not need 500 minimum-wage retail jobs in a single outlet, which in any case, will be taken from other parts of the city, it needs sustainable and diverse employment opportunities. Rather than claiming this as a success it is a failure of Government policy. Putting all your eggs in one basket is no solution to the decades of neglect suffered by the people of Ballymun."

Sinn Féin seem to be the only ones that have made a comment about the entry of the IKEA group into Ireland.

I'm not convinced that given the current labour market in Ireland; that we need 500 minimum wage paying jobs. Also, if IKEA take an agressive pricing stance, it's likely that we'll see native Irish furnishing businesses go to the wall, forcing it's employees to possibly seek the lower paying jobs in IKEA.

It's also likely that if IKEA can enter the Irish market then there'll be nothing to stop Wal-Mart from entering too. Irish law forbids anyone to sell anything at below cost price, given however that Wal-Mart's costs would be far lower than that of Dunnes, Tesco or the like we could soon see closures of those firms that supplanted the local shops of Ireland. Ironic.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Raskolnikov

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

It's a barrier to the whole Wal-Mart ideology of opening massive stores that almost border on warehouses though. I don't know how they operate in England but the Wal-Mart's in the USA are many times the size of even the largest Irish supermarkets.

mike65

The only thing wrong with IKEA coming is that they want to be based in Dublin, the ideal location would be on the Portlaoise by pass. 50 mins of motorway from M-50 for the Dubs and much closer to ppl elsewhere who won't have to get caught up in Dublin traffic.

Mike.

gandalf

Err What native furniture businesses. Anything that is produced here is normally aimed at the higher end of the market. IKEA will be competing with B&Q, Argos and other such bastions of Irish commerce :rolleyes:

I welcome this, we do not have enough competition in this country. The only problem I have with it is will they have the infrastructure to cope with the extra traffic this store will generate. That should be a condition of planning permission. It is also rich for Sinn Fein to say jobs are not needed, they are always needed even if they are entry level everyone has to start somewhere. We all don't have a Northern Bank retirement plan to fall back on.

Oh I believe the Greens are against this as well.

is_that_so

mike65 wrote:

The only thing wrong with IKEA coming is that they want to be based in Dublin, the ideal location would be on the Portlaoise by pass. 50 mins of motorway from M-50 for the Dubs and much closer to ppl elsewhere who won't have to get caught up in Dublin traffic.

Mike.

Not only this there is a possibility of yet another M50 bottleneck. Maybe they should pay for any upgrades to the exit. In Germany SAP had to pay for their own exit.

Would be interested to hear SF's economic take on this , after all one day Arthur could be doing the Budget .

arcadegame2004

I'm not convinced that given the current labour market in Ireland; that we need 500 minimum wage paying jobs. Also, if IKEA take an agressive pricing stance, it's likely that we'll see native Irish furnishing businesses go to the wall, forcing it's employees to possibly seek the lower paying jobs in IKEA.

It's also likely that if IKEA can enter the Irish market then there'll be nothing to stop Wal-Mart from entering too. Irish law forbids anyone to sell anything at below cost price, given however that Wal-Mart's costs would be far lower than that of Dunnes, Tesco or the like we could soon see closures of those firms that supplanted the local shops of Ireland. Ironic.

RGDATA called the decision "A bad precedent" according to Morning Ireland today. They probably mean it's a bad precedent because they will be forced to cut prices instead of ripping off the long oppressed Irish consumer.

On the point about below-cost selling, I think that ban only applies to groceries. I am against barriers to entry for foreign-businesses, because it encourages cartels to fix the prices for their busineses' profiteering ends. This is NOT on as far as I am concerned. As an Irish consumer I DEMAND choice. I demand that our Government dismantles barriers to commercial entry into Irish markets in the areas of electricity, gas, bus-travel, airports and health-insurance, and ESPECIALLY motor-insurance! Insurance costs in some cases are 10 times higher than in Spain, and far higher than most of Europe. Barriers to entry for companies into these markets explain most of our inflation.

Larger stores will open the way to bulk-buying = smaller cost per unit = lower prices. Good!

Oh, and don't get me started on the pub-industry! The ultimate example of what happens when a market is largely closed to extra competition.

As far as I am concerned, the problem with today's decision isn't that it goes too far. If anything, it doesn't go far enough. But it is welcome as far as it goes. But it must not end there.

Raskolnikov

gandalf wrote:

Err What native furniture businesses. Anything that is produced here is normally aimed at the higher end of the market. IKEA will be competing with B&Q, Argos and other such bastions of Irish commerce :rolleyes:

I welcome this, we do not have enough competition in this country. The only problem I have with it is will they have the infrastructure to cope with the extra traffic this store will generate. That should be a condition of planning permission. It is also rich for Sinn Fein to say jobs are not needed, they are always needed even if they are entry level everyone has to start somewhere. We all don't have a Northern Bank retirement plan to fall back on.

Oh I believe the Greens are against this as well.

Oh right, there's no such thing as an Irish company that sells furniture. How silly of me

gandalf wrote:

It is also rich for Sinn Fein to say jobs are not needed, they are always needed even if they are entry level everyone has to start somewhere. We all don't have a Northern Bank retirement plan to fall back on.

Now we've got the moderators trolling. Fantastic.

MrPudding

arcadegame2004 wrote:

On the point about below-cost selling, I think that ban only applies to groceries.

True. Plus, it actually only applies to a limited number of lines in the grocery department not all groceries.

I heard that the change in the law does not apply to food outlets.They are still limited in size.

MrP

gandalf

Raskolnikov wrote:

Now we've got the moderators trolling. Fantastic.

You are so right, gandalf banned from Politics for a week !!!!

chewy

why do all these people say ikea and walmart and starbucks coming in would be good for competition ? these are monolopistic comanpies that drive everyone esle out of business by saturating the market... which they can survive the the others can't... MS inspired(tm)

Hobbes

Read "No Logo". It covers the business practises of these people. It would not be good thing to have in Ireland (the practises, I certainly welcome the businesses).

arcadegame2004

If "these people" are successful then more than likely it is because the customer is voting with his/her feet. and wallets, for IKEA. This moaning by the protectionists just reminds me of the taxi-drivers when they were resisting competition.

Gurgle

gandalf wrote:

Err What native furniture businesses. Anything that is produced here is normally aimed at the higher end of the market. IKEA will be competing with B&Q, Argos and other such bastions of Irish commerce :rolleyes:

Better quality for about the same price as B&Q/Argos, profits go to Sweden instead of Britain

I'm sure they'll be competing against some Irish companies, the ones who import flat-pack stuff and sell it with 300% mark-ups. I don't have much sympathy for them, they've had decades of this market being stacked in favour of the retailer. If they cut their margins enough they'll survive.

Redleslie2

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If "these people" are successful then more than likely it is because the customer is voting with his/her feet. and wallets, for IKEA. This moaning by the protectionists just reminds me of the taxi-drivers when they were resisting competition.

Competition's great as long as it doesn't come from darkies and muslims.

Hobbes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If "these people" are successful then more than likely it is because the customer is voting with his/her feet.

Like I said. Do some reading up on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wal-Mart

pork99

gandalf wrote:

That should be a condition of planning permission. It is also rich for Sinn Fein to say jobs are not needed, they are always needed even if they are entry level everyone has to start somewhere. We all don't have a Northern Bank retirement plan to fall back on.

It's so much harder to get "insurance payments" out of big retailers like this as well

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

It is also rich for Sinn Fein to say jobs are not needed, they are always needed even if they are entry level everyone has to start somewhere. We all don't have a Northern Bank retirement plan to fall back on.

Lmao , I was tempted to report that post to the Category moderator

On the topic in question, the change in planning applies to all gateway towns[in the governments spatial plan] so any Irish firm is able to build a store in those areas within the new size limits.
I fully agree with Gandalf, the jobs are needed.It will get people otherwise excluded onto the jobs ladder with something good on their CV.

Politically of course, so many new jobs in the area that IKEA want to move into, plus the associated business would be harmfull to SF's core vote catchment in that there would be less to complain about perhaps.
Maybe thats the underlying reason for their objections to this? ( I hope not )

ReefBreak

Cheaper furniture, that's also good quality, plus heaps of employment, plus heaps of knock-on employment for an area that needs it. Arthur Morgan should probably keep his idiotic thoughts to himself.

Bring 'em on in I say...

oscarBravo

Raskolnikov wrote:

I don't know how they operate in England but the Wal-Mart's in the USA are many times the size of even the largest Irish supermarkets.

As are some Carrefour and similar hypermarchés in France. Is that causing them any problems?

Arthur Morgan wrote:

...the likes of WalMart, with its notorious and appalling employer record...

The fact that Irish employment law differs from American would dilute this point substantially, I'd have thought.

secret_squirrel

I for one welcome IKEA moving in - hopefully it will reduce the current extortionate prices the Irish retailers charge for furniture. IMHO however the quality of goods in IKEA ranges from poor to average - they are in no way any better than the B&Q's of this world quality-wise.

SF should also note that I'd be willing to bet massive majority of irish consumers will welcome IKEA moving in.

To to echo a previous poster - there is a huge ASDA-Walmart in the town I was born in - it has driven precisely none of the the other supermarkets out of the area.

Is IKEA the first to take advantage of the new regulations anyhow? B&Q Warehouses tend to be massive and yet they are building one in Swords. Clare Hall Tesco (which is not much smaller than the ASDA-Walmart mentioned) must also have gotten around the size regulations somehow. (Plus look how good that was for competition in Petrol Prices)

It should be noted that inspite of the scaremongers any Walmart over here would likely be part of the ASDA group - which has a very good record for treating its workers.

IKEA should definately pay for Road improvements though - both the Bristol and Birmingham IKEA's cause traffic nightmares.

A Dub in Glasgo

On the subject of increasing shop sizes, I would disagree with SF. The key though is the planning process. The councils should be stipulating that any of these large 'shops' should incorporate improved public transport and road infrastructure to the place. If none is provided, a big bottle-neck will be created at the entrance and exit points. The IKEA in Glasgow (and the big shopping centre beside it - Braehead) cause huge tailbacks on the M8 in Glasgow and the stupid planners did not insist that the development converts a goods railway line that runs beside it for passenger services to Glasgow Central

On the subject of the regeneration of Ballymun, this is good news providing that a good proportion of the jobs are sourced in the regenerated Ballymun. I agree with SF on the point that the area needs a more diverse employment prospects as well as IKEA.

On the subject of ASDA/Walmart, I am aware that Wal Mart in the US has a terrible name on employment rights and the main reason for that is the US laws allow them to shaft their employees. Our laws are a lot different and we are increasingly being led by EU employment law. Over here in Glasgow, I do all my grocery shopping in ASDA and they are quite cheap and sell loads of other items otherthan food. Best supermarket in the UK for me.

On the subject of IKEA furniture, I really don't know what all the fuss is about. I have been there a couple of times and the only thing that I bought was some large picture frames for my movie posters.

This is also discussed in the Rip off Ireland forum.

chewy

but arcade you've repeatedly said you dislike monolopislitc (states) companies...
i couldnt be arsed finding sources right now, these companies are monolopilistic to the nth degree, that is there business model their raison d'etre!

arcadegame2004

...the likes of WalMart, with its notorious and appalling employer record...

If you mean not allowing people to join trade unions my reply is that in return they pay their employees well (that is the experience of US companies in Ireland). I personally would be prepared to work for a company that barred union-membership if the pay was good. I'm sure there are plenty like me.

but arcade you've repeatedly said you dislike monolopislitc (states) companies...

Tesco didn't drive Supervalu, Spar or Centra out of business. I dislike monopolies. That is what I said. I don't define IKEA or Wallmart as "monopolistic". There is no consistency in the Left on the one hand whining about "rip-off Ireland" while simultaneously conspiring, unwittingly or otherwise, in the interests of trade union power and central planning ideology, to keep things that way by denying competitors the right to enter markets. Maybe the leftwing parties wnat to keep the sources of grievance going so they can win the protest votes. :rolleyes:

Redleslie2

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If you mean not allowing people to join trade unions my reply is that in return they pay their employees well (that is the experience of US companies in Ireland). I personally would be prepared to work for a company that barred union-membership if the pay was good. I'm sure there are plenty like me.

I thought that you're on disability benefit and don't have to work.

arcadegame2004

Redleslie2 wrote:

I thought that you're on disability benefit and don't have to work.

Yes but I am training in the hope of getting one.

Redleslie2

Excellent. Carry on.

chewy

no private company can ever act in monolopilistic way?

arcadegame2004

chewy wrote:

no private company can ever act in monolopilistic way?

Well of course they can. But if the competition authorities are doing their job then that will not happen. This job entails facilitating greater competition in the Irish market, as well as preventing takeovers and mergers that undermine competition.

AngelofFire

Why should a company which is setting up out of town, be entitled to tax concessions that were meant to support urban renewal, it just doesn`t make sense.

arcadegame2004

AngelofFire wrote:

Why should a company which is setting up out of town, be entitled to tax concessions that were meant to support urban renewal, it just doesn`t make sense.

Well, maybe it can be regarded as urban renewal in the sense that workers from many parts of Dublin may find jobs there.

Cork

The opposition from the Shinners is odd. Competition will bring down prices and the IKEA type furniture is good quality and reasonable cost.

RGDATA, which represents retail grocers, said the change 'set a bad precedent and would cause serious concern to the thousands of Irish businesses that had invested in genuine urban regeneration'.

ISME has also strongly criticised the Government decision to remove the cap on retail planning guidelines, describing it as a direct attack on smaller indigenous retailers and suppliers.

But consumers will get a better deal and we had a laugh at SF, Rgdata and ISME advancing similar arguements.

John Fingleton (Competition Authority) has welcomed the announcement of changes to the retail planning guidelines, as a positive move for Irish consumers, which would lead to greater choice and lower prices.

John Fingleton has called it right.

chewy

but does it increase quality and service?

arcadegame2004

chewy wrote:

but does it increase quality and service?

One thing guaranteed to prevent fair prices and inprovement in quality of service is a retail market in which a cosy cartel of the Irish retail establishment are allowed to bully governments into ensuring that they have the Irish retail market largely to themselves. If RGDATA is allowed to think that no-one will be allowed to compete with its members, then rip-off Ireland will continue.

What improves quality of service is the knowledge that you will lose business to a rival that will charge less, if you don't cut your own prices. That can only benefit the consumer.

AngelofFire

With regard to wallmart`s employment record, it goes far beyond refusing to talk to unions. http://walmart-blows.com/news.htm Why cant more companies follow tesco`s example, benefits for workers and trade union representation.

Cork

AngelofFire wrote:

With regard to wallmart`s employment record, it goes far beyond refusing to talk to unions. http://walmart-blows.com/news.htm Why cant more companies follow tesco`s example, benefits for workers and trade union representation.

I agree. But I think the competition authority needs a far greater budget and it needs teeth to bring legal action in cases where competition law has been brached.

There has been a big failure with many Irish governments to strengen powers of the competition authority. This is a pity.

chewy

yeah i was just about to say i don't anyone herer thinks the compeition authority are doing a good job, shouldn't they give that a kick up the butt before they allow palces like ikea in?

secret_squirrel

AngelofFire wrote:

With regard to wallmart`s employment record, it goes far beyond refusing to talk to unions. http://walmart-blows.com/news.htm Why cant more companies follow tesco`s example, benefits for workers and trade union representation.

There is a massive difference between the US division of Walmart and ASDA-Walmart in the UK - they treat their workers very similarly to Tesco.

Even supposing Walmart are interested in opening here - where do you think the operation would be run from??? ASDA-Walmart in the UK of course.

Actually back on topic - can anyone offer any evidence that Ikea is a worse than average employer???

thejollyrodger

Im very happy to hear that IKEA is coming to Ireland. The problem I have is that the M50 when its upgraded wont be wide enough to deal with all the traffic. Personally I think there should be 4 lanes instead of 3. Another good decision is allowing gateway towns to open similar stores.

(thank god Sinn Fein arent in government !! )

sovtek

arcadegame2004 wrote:

One thing guaranteed to prevent fair prices and inprovement in quality of service is a retail market in which a cosy cartel of the Irish retail establishment are allowed to bully governments into ensuring that they have the Irish retail market largely to themselves.

Then what makes you think the likes of Walmart won't do the same when they come over?
I would think that you would be calling for a tenacious competition authority before arguing for another company that uses anti-competative practices to enter the market as well.

Poker_Peter

sovtek wrote:

Then what makes you think the likes of Walmart won't do the same when they come over?
I would think that you would be calling for a tenacious competition authority before arguing for another company that uses anti-competative practices to enter the market as well.

Whatever AG2004's views on that, I feel that they don't have the power to clamp down the way they should. But that doesn't mean the Irish consumer should be forced to put up with cosy cartels ripping us off until the necessary legislation is passed.

I personally believe that free-markets usually have a naturally inbuilt law of nature whereby prices graduate to a price that consumers are willing to pay. We don't really have a free market yet, since the Groceries Order exists and since IKEA style stores are only going to be allowed to set up in so-called "Hubs" as identified by the National Spatial Strategy. But letting IKEA in is a start, and the new rules will bring more in too, provided the local-authorities don't get bribed by the Irish retail establishment into blocking it. I think the removal of FF from controlling the local-authorities will reduce the chances of such cynical and conniving behaviour, though I fear Labour's traditional hostility to consumer choice and competition might still hold things up a bit.

secret_squirrel

sovtek wrote:

Then what makes you think the likes of Walmart won't do the same when they come over?

What makes you think they will? You're completely ignoring the likelyhood that any Walmart operation in Ireland will be an
ASDA-Walmart operation - logistics, local market understanding, and common sense suggest this. Such an operation would be much more likely to operate under similar conditions to the exists supermarkets.

I dont question the fact that the US arm of Walmart has demonstrated some pretty nasty behaviour - however I do question your blind assumption that any Irish based Walmart operation would be operated like the US operation.

sovtek

secret_squirrel wrote:

What makes you think they will? You're completely ignoring the likelyhood that any Walmart operation in Ireland will be an
ASDA-Walmart operation - logistics, local market understanding, and common sense suggest this. Such an operation would be much more likely to operate under similar conditions to the exists supermarkets.

I'm not ignoring it at all. Even assuming that it will be run by ASDA/Walmart it is not a forgone conclusion that it's practices in the States won't be tried here considering the weak state of the Irish Competition Authority. ASDA-Walmart works under the UK restrictions placed upon it...and the UK is not Ireland.

I dont question the fact that the US arm of Walmart has demonstrated some pretty nasty behaviour - however I do question your blind assumption that any Irish based Walmart operation would be operated like the US operation.

It's not blind assumption but commen sense that Walmart will operate in it's own interests wherever it is allowed to.

sovtek

Poker_Peter wrote:

Whatever AG2004's views on that, I feel that they don't have the power to clamp down the way they should. But that doesn't mean the Irish consumer should be forced to put up with cosy cartels ripping us off until the necessary legislation is passed.

I don't disagree but then I wonder how the competition authority is all the sudden going to prevent monopolistic practices of foreign competition if it doesn't prevent the same of it's local businesses.
I look at Tesco's...and I can't speak about their labour practices...my experience has been that their presence isn't significantly effecting consumer prices.

cdebru

the location of IKEA on the m50 is going to be a disaster

great news for the west link

monument

This isnt a case of the open market, this a case of helping Ikea, and (so-far) Ikea only....

I guess any other company will have to lobby the government on their own behalf.

New storm looms over Ikea

09 January 2005 By Neil Callanan
The site in Ballymun, north Dublin, earmarked for Ireland's first Ikea outlet, is the only one that qualifies for a retail superstore under the new planning rules, property experts claim.

Several international retailers are understood to be extremely annoyed at the new restrictions, announced last week, and at least one is believed to be considering legal action over them.

A spokeswoman for B&Q, which had lobbied for the cap on retail warehouses to be lifted, said: “We are looking at them in some detail before we decide we're unhappy with them.”

A spokesman for the Department of the Environment said it was unsure how many sites qualified for the new retail warehouses. Environment minister Dick Roche had said the amendment would be “tightly worded'‘ to stop the construction of large out-of-town retail warehouses.

Five property sources said the regulations achieved this because, although superstores can now be constructed in urban renewal areas - subject to an integrated area plan - most of those areas are in town or city centres, making them unsuitable for retail warehouses.

“It looks like the world at large could qualify but when you look at the balance of tests, only Ballymun currently qualifies,” said one high-profile developer.

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqid=1455-qqqx=1.asp

arcadegame2004

sovtek wrote:

I don't disagree but then I wonder how the competition authority is all the sudden going to prevent monopolistic practices of foreign competition if it doesn't prevent the same of it's local businesses.
I look at Tesco's...and I can't speak about their labour practices...my experience has been that their presence isn't significantly effecting consumer prices.

Surely ALDI's and LIDL's is though!

sovtek

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Surely ALDI's and LIDL's is though!

It's great that they are in Ireland but how have they affected Dunnes and Tesco's prices...very little that I can tell.
I also recall a bit of bother about ALDI's labour practices...not that I know too much about it.

cujimmy

secret_squirrel wrote:

There is a massive difference between the US division of Walmart and ASDA-Walmart in the UK - they treat their workers very similarly to Tesco.

Even supposing Walmart are interested in opening here - where do you think the operation would be run from??? ASDA-Walmart in the UK of course.

Actually back on topic - can anyone offer any evidence that Ikea is a worse than average employer???

I thought walmart had already started talking to Dunnes stores

A Dub in Glasgo

Ballymun-based Sinn Fein councillor Ray Corcoran said while the decision will result in some badly needed employment opportunities in an area that has suffered decades of neglect by local authorities and the Government, Ballymun really needs investment in diverse employment opportunities.
“Putting all your eggs in one basket is no solution to the decades of neglect suffered by the people of Ballymun,” he said. “I would also point out that there is no guarantee that all the jobs resulting from this decision will be local. We have seen with the regeneration of Ballymun that what is touted as local employment is often anything but.”
Mr Corcoran added he is extremely sceptical about the figure of 500 jobs being put about by the Government and IKEA.
“Local people also have major concerns about the traffic situation in relation to this proposed development,” he said. “There is no way the local road infrastructure could cope with the predicted massive influx of traffic from across the city. There is a very real danger of the M50 being completely blocked up as a result.”

http://www.northsidepeople.ie/index.php?option=news&task=viewarticle&sid=899

Totally agree with Corcoran in that extract

secret_squirrel

He's spot on about the roads alright I think both commercial and residential developers should be forced to upgrade the road networks around their sites relative to the volume of traffic they expect it to generate - It should be made a condition of all planning permissions.

However, I dont wholly agree with the rest of it - presumably there is plenty of scope for other retailers to take advantage of the 'unique' plannning conditions for that spot. Personally I think its quite a good spot for a series of retail parks - that would bring more employment to the area.