Charges for Building a Website

snappieT

I've recently been asked to build a simple website for a localised firm. The site will be fairly basic, maximum 20 pages, simple html with perhaps one cgi page.

I was just wondering what the rule of thumb is for charging for something like this. There was also a major ****-up with the hosting company that i'll be solving.

I am by no means a professional web developer. This is somewhere between a nixer and a proper job.

She's looking for a ballpark price before we begin. What should I tell her?

Keyzer

Depends on several factors -

1. How much of your time is this project going to take?
2. How much effort and work do you have to put in?
3. Are you any good? I mean is it gonna be a super dooper website with all the extras etc?
4. The most important factor is how dumb she is. Don't take this the wrong way but most people don't have a clue how easy it really is to put a site together, so if she is one of those people I'd bump the price up. However, you want future work and recommendations from her to her business colleagues , they might throw a bit of work your way, so consider this for the future.

Ballpark I'd say 300 Euro depending on the factors above.

A sample from a webdesign company -
Entrepreneur Plus - $300
For sites with a lot of pictures and up to 15 pages of content. The Entrepreneur Plus also includes swap images. Take a look at what's included:
A neat layout with an eye-catching masthead
Swap Images (rollover the links in the live site to view the swap images)

Drop down menus (if required)

Navigation bar with rollover buttons
Content Insertion * for up to 15 HTML pages
2 unique layout options from which you can choose the final design
Project duration : 5 working days

is_that_so

Pricing includes the following

Hosting charge -= extra for self if you wish

Development cost per hour - your call on this although check out the current contracting rates www.rescon.ie has salary surveys

Project management charge - covers everything else - same rate as above is fine.

In working out time - calcaulate as best as you can then double it.

Don't overprice it or they may look elsewhere. Some bigger development companies can quote much lower prices, as they have salaried developers.


Best of luck

evilhomer

I'm not trying to take away from the question asked by snapscan1212p, but this is a very frequently asked question on the board now. perhaps it's time we created a sticky with all the relevent information?

Good luck with your new venture snapscan!

JustHalf

Keyzer wrote:

4. The most important factor is how dumb she is. Don't take this the wrong way but most people don't have a clue how easy it really is to put a site together, so if she is one of those people I'd bump the price up. However, you want future work and recommendations from her to her business colleagues , they might throw a bit of work your way, so consider this for the future.

Ballpark I'd say 300 Euro depending on the factors above.

O dear Lord.

The only reason for doing this is that, as he said, he's not a professional web developer. But it makes people assume that this is what websites should cost.

300 Euro is nothing. And, as evidenced by the immense amount of poorly constructed, badly designed websites... it's not easy to design a good site.

dangerman

figment pointed to this link in a recent thread, its from the designers guild of ireland and gives useful tips on how to price.

http://www.dgi.ie/business/pricing.php

mneylon

evilhomer wrote:

I'm not trying to take away from the question asked by snapscan1212p, but this is a very frequently asked question on the board now. perhaps it's time we created a sticky with all the relevent information?

I'd agree. The question seems to come up about once a fortnight.

pencil

I'm sorry Keyzer but I just have to comment on this!

Keyzer wrote:

Depends on several factors -
4. The most important factor is how dumb she is. Don't take this the wrong way but most people don't have a clue how easy it really is to put a site together, so if she is one of those people I'd bump the price up. However, you want future work and recommendations from her to her business colleagues , they might throw a bit of work your way, so consider this for the future.

Wrong attitude! How about?
4. The most important factor is how good of a job can you do, can you make the client happy & fullfill her needs. Don't take this the wrong way but most people don't have a clue how easy it really is to put a site together, so if she is one of those people I'd hold her hand throughout the process, ensuring that she knew the reason for all the decisions you make on her behalf.... then you'll be assured that she will recommend you to others

Keyzer wrote:

Ballpark I'd say 300 Euro depending on the factors above.

Entrepreneur Plus - $300
For sites with a lot of pictures and up to 15 pages of content. The Entrepreneur Plus also includes swap images. Take a look at what's included:
A neat layout with an eye-catching masthead
Swap Images (rollover the links in the live site to view the swap images)

Drop down menus (if required)

Navigation bar with rollover buttons
Content Insertion * for up to 15 HTML pages
2 unique layout options from which you can choose the final design
Project duration : 5 working days

300 dollars for 5 Days work ($300 = €227)

Even assuming you ment 300 euro.
€300 / 5 days = 60 per day / 8 hours = €7.5 euro per hour.

McDonalds pays more & thats below the minimum wage.

Are you aware that there are people out there, like me, that have put SIX years into their education in this field and who actually give a sh!t & know that they are doing. Can you imagine my disgust when reading your advice!

Its cowboy quotes & attitudes like this that is giving the industry a bad name.

When your dealing with the likes of this you really can see the need for some industry recognised accreditation to keep the cowboys at bay.

Buttmunchy

Ok. You can make a simple website with 50 pages. But only 50 pages. I first started there and it's simple with proper HTML editing pages. Blah. www.freewebs.com If you sign up, sign up with advanced. It's free and it had HTML editing pages. It's easy to use too.
Yes you heard me - it's reliable and FREE!
www.freewebs.com

Keyzer

pencil wrote:

I'm sorry Keyzer but I just have to comment on this!


Wrong attitude! How about?
4. The most important factor is how good of a job can you do, can you make the client happy & fullfill her needs. Don't take this the wrong way but most people don't have a clue how easy it really is to put a site together, so if she is one of those people I'd hold her hand throughout the process, ensuring that she knew the reason for all the decisions you make on her behalf.... then you'll be assured that she will recommend you to others



300 dollars for 5 Days work ($300 = €227)

Even assuming you ment 300 euro.
€300 / 5 days = 60 per day / 8 hours = €7.5 euro per hour.

McDonalds pays more & thats below the minimum wage.

Are you aware that there are people out there, like me, that have put SIX years into their education in this field and who actually give a sh!t & know that they are doing. Can you imagine my disgust when reading your advice!

Its cowboy quotes & attitudes like this that is giving the industry a bad name.

When your dealing with the likes of this you really can see the need for some industry recognised accreditation to keep the cowboys at bay.

Lighten up, he's never put a website together so whats she gonna say when he charges a fortune and then delivers (not saying he will though) a sub standard site....

How much would you charge?
There are indian companies out there that would put together a shlt hot website for 300 US $. And before you start going on about Indian companies providing substandard work, I've seen some of the sites they have constructed and they are very good, fully functional, server side includes, forms processing etc. and tailored for each individual client.

Wake up and smell the coffee mate...

mneylon

Regardless of how good or bad an Indian company may be they can't meet the client face to face.

JustHalf

pencil wrote:

Wrong attitude! How about?
4. The most important factor is how good of a job can you do, can you make the client happy & fullfill her needs. Don't take this the wrong way but most people don't have a clue how easy it really is to put a site together, so if she is one of those people I'd hold her hand throughout the process, ensuring that she knew the reason for all the decisions you make on her behalf.... then you'll be assured that she will recommend you to others

This is a responsible attitude. Treating your clients with respect is a good idea. Common decency aside, they are the ones with the money.

I hope none of your clients are reading this Keyzer!

There's a lot of noise in the software industry about jobs moving to India there too. Joel Spolsky has a great comment on this, which I think applies to the web design industry too:

But I keep hearing that enrollment in CS departments is dropping perilously, and one reason I hear for it is "students are afraid to go into a field where all the jobs are going to India." ...there's still an incredible shortage of the really good programmers, here and in India. Yes, there are a bunch of out of work IT people making a lot of noise about how long they've been out of work, but you know what? At the risk of pissing them off, really good programmers do have jobs.

I'm not that concerned about my work being outsourced to India.

Keyzer

I don't have any clients because I don't run my own business and I'm not a full time web designer.

I was speaking purely as if the job was a nixer.
A nixer is a nixer, simple as that.

If your a full time web designer/developer and I go to you to design me a site, lets say you charge a grand (my quote was 300 earlier and I got flamed for that so we'll go with a grand), I'm gonna shop around.

Does it make a difference to me that If I see the designer face to face? No.

Web Design is not rocket science really, come on.

JustHalf

A client would get very little for a grand from me, and most professional web designers.

If you aren't willing to spend enough on your site to get it done well, then you don't consider it important.

snappieT

JustHalf wrote:

O dear Lord.

The only reason for doing this is that, as he said, he's not a professional web developer. But it makes people assume that this is what websites should cost.

300 Euro is nothing. And, as evidenced by the immense amount of poorly constructed, badly designed websites... it's not easy to design a good site.

I have done quite a few small websites for free (personal, drama group, student council, school) - but this would be the first paid one, and the first on a proper server, not a cheapo freeserver.

I'd by no means consider myself good, but I keep all sites simple. Simplicity + Inexperience = Decent site (usually)

I talked to her again today, I'm pretty much getting the company brochure to put online. A webpage for each brochure page. (Approx 20 - 30) Makes it much easier to design. There'll also be a simple script so online customers can order a paper catalogue using a form.

P.S. I'd be extremely happy with 300

Figment

Make sure you draw up a good spec and contract. If you are charging that little you need to ensure that the spec isnt changed half way through and she adds loads of more pages and features so you quickly end up loosing money and a project from hell that never ends.

A contract also shows you are more professional and worth the money you charge.

Buttmunchy wrote:

Ok. You can make a simple website with 50 pages. But only 50 pages. I first started there and it's simple with proper HTML editing pages. Blah. www.freewebs.com If you sign up, sign up with advanced. It's free and it had HTML editing pages. It's easy to use too.
Yes you heard me - it's reliable and FREE!
www.freewebs.com

A note to be careful on template sites. Many are using royalty free images in the templates and the companies do not have the licence to resell these images as part of the templates. This means that you could liable for a bill from a stock image company if you decide to use the image with the template.
$60 for the template then $500 for the image.

Template Monster is one company who have had run ins with one of the stock houses.

Keyzer

JustHalf wrote:

A client would get very little for a grand from me, and most professional web designers.

If you aren't willing to spend enough on your site to get it done well, then you don't consider it important.

Can you give me an example of some of your recent work please?

Keyzer

blacknight wrote:

Regardless of how good or bad an Indian company may be they can't meet the client face to face.

I like your company website, I assume this is your company?

JustHalf

Keyzer wrote:

Can you give me an example of some of your recent work please?

http://www.transwareplc.com/ is my latest. I can't see how this is particularly relevant though.

Keyzer

I was curious to see some of your work.
Do you mind me asking you how much you charged for that site?

JustHalf

Yes, I do mind. That information is confidential.

Keyzer

JustHalf wrote:

Yes, I do mind. That information is confidential.

Ok, no bothers, just curious, no offence intended...

JustHalf

None taken.

Spunog UIE

JustHalf wrote:

http://www.transwareplc.com/ is my latest. I can't see how this is particularly relevant though.

very nice indeed.

heggie

anyways to answer a generally question, I'd say a safe amount (if your site can look decent enough) is about 700 - 800 euro, thats an ok amount to charge for a basic but visually appealing site imo.

Figment

heggie wrote:

anyways to answer a generally question, I'd say a safe amount (if your site can look decent enough) is about 700 - 800 euro, thats an ok amount to charge for a basic but visually appealing site imo.

You wouldnt get much of a site for that amount. It might cover the first round of the process and concept generation of 2 or 3 designs but thats all.

heggie

as i said for a basic site, and if its a nixer, i doubt they want 2 or 3 possibles to choose from, I'm only answering a general question, which has been met by elitest, show off replies

RicardoSmith

Problem with threads like this is that is not a "fixed" price for this kinda of work. A busy studio, professional is going to charge one price, and a student looking to build his portfolio another. But its useful to point out the pitfalls of undercharging and suggest how to manage projects like these and approximate costs and fees to charge. But theres no absolutes in terms of charges.

Personally I do think that all markets including wedesign, software development, are effected by underbidding and eventually the amount profitable jobs worth doing does decrease. That just economics. If you have a customer base happy to pay your costs then great. So many industries in the past have gone to the wall because it became uneconomical to continue. It can happen in any industry regardless of the skill of those working in it.

The majority of the companies I have worked with in the past now outsource at least some of their work. Nearly always it's to somewhere out of Ireland. In some cases all of their work is now done oversees. How can that not have an effect!

Bard

heggie wrote:

as i said for a basic site, and if its a nixer, i doubt they want 2 or 3 possibles to choose from, I'm only answering a general question, which has been met by elitest, show off replies

By "elitist show-off replies" I'll presume you mean replies from professionals who do web development for a living as opposed to replies from teenage bedroom-based Frontpage junkie monkeys who just pull a site development fee out of their arses.

You'd do well to pay attention to the likes of blacknight, Figment and Justhalf, and not just dismiss their opinions and advice as 'elitist' or 'showing off' - these guys know what they're talking about in this field and could certainly show us all a thing or two I'm sure.

In my experience, a relatively well experienced, relatively professional web developer, who is writing a site freelance, can expect to charge a minimum of €1,000 to €1,500 (even for a friend) depending on the complexity of the site in question and the time/work involved in getting it up and running (from concept to site launch). Naturally, for a site as basic (and frankly piss-easy) as the one snapscan1212p is talking about, it may be possible to offer a discount - but it's important to know your worth, and to know the worth of your time and effort and not to under-charge.

You'll actually be respected more for that in the most part and clients and potential clients alike will begin to realise that getting a web site developed is not actually the domain of 'little johnny, the directors son, who happens to be 12 and have a copy of Corel Photopaint and HoTMetaL Pro 3 on his Pentium-III at home' but is, in fact, best left to the professionals who have done this to a very high standard many a time before.

Seth Brundle

Based on the aformentioned 5 days, if you were to recruit a solicitor or plumber for the same period what would it cost.

Keyzer wrote:

Do you mind me asking you how much you charged for that site?

While you are at it, how much is in your bank account?

RicardoSmith

Theres different markets for websites costing 300, 3k, 30k and 3m euro. Such is life. No one makes a living at doing it for 300, but then they are not trying to, its simply pocket money.

Wait till you try and buy a product of a company for say 250K and they turn around and tell you they don't do contracts under 500K. Then you'll realise the level you are at.

Get a grip people.

pencil

JustHalf wrote:

http://www.transwareplc.com/ is my latest. I can't see how this is particularly relevant though.

Very nicely coded. Not 100% on your combination of greens but good clean intuitive structure.

pencil

kbannon wrote:

Based on the aformentioned 5 days, if you were to recruit a solicitor or plumber for the same period what would it cost.
While you are at it, how much is in your bank account?

Exactly.

More to the point - if you were to engage a 'contract cleaning' company to stick around your offices for the same lenght of time - you'd pay more!

RicardoSmith

pencil wrote:

Exactly.
More to the point - if you were to engage a 'contract cleaning' company to stick around your offices for the same lenght of time - you'd pay more!

Your point would be valid if there were no other market forces and some occupations are not more desirable than others. But of course there are, so its a facile argument. Some people will do work experience for free to get experience. Especially in creative fields. However you don't get many people doing cleaning for free to get experience do you. :rolleyes:

heggie

lol, i am a professional web developer / graphic designer, and as i said, hes doin a nixer, hes not a pro, so hes not gonna charge a minimum of 1000 or 1500 euro, jesus get a grip. I am not disregarding anyones opinion, i did not speak agains all posters, I have my .ie with blacknight, so please read what i said before commenting like an idiot. Every one of these threads gets spoiled by people acting much like you, the guy is doing a job, once off most likely, a basic site from what i read, and wanted a guideline price, thats what i gave.

K!LL!@N

He might think it's a once off, but unless the spec is defined and a contract drawn up that covers every detail, he may find himself being called upon everytime the client wants to change something on the website.
And they'll more than likely expect it to be changed for nothing.
So make it very clear that what's done is done, and any further work on it, will be charged accordingly.

I'd be interested to see the final site and the amount paid for it.

Killian

RicardoSmith

K!LL!@N wrote:

....spec is defined and a contract drawn up that covers every detail...

You don't do many nixers do you...

Its a good point though. Saves a lot of grief if you agree some sort of spec and deliverables. So once they are achieved your finished, and they can't sneak any additional work in before they pay you. Also a good idea to get some money 50% even, half way or 80% before your handover your work. It can be like getting money out of a stone, even from friends.

Sleepy

To the original poster: I do the odd website much along the lines of what you're talking about doing there. It's just a nixer for me but for something with 20/30 pages I'd be looking at between 500 and a grand. I'm not the best designer in the world, I don't provide hosting but that's what clients will happily pay and will continue to reccomend me to others.

There's some great tips from some of the professionals in here. Sure, you can't charge their rates as someone who's just starting out, and doing so as a nixer, but you can learn from their attitude of providing excellent service to your clients. Hold their hands through the design process, explain the benefits of things like reciprocal link exchanges, search engine submission, etc. etc. The more the client feels involved in the design of the site, the happier they'll be with the end result.

Not trying to discredit what anyone else said, just offering my own opinion and advice.

dangerman

RicardoSmith wrote:

Problem with threads like this is that is not a "fixed" price for this kinda of work. A busy studio, professional is going to charge one price, and a student looking to build his portfolio another. But its useful to point out the pitfalls of undercharging and suggest how to manage projects like these and approximate costs and fees to charge. But theres no absolutes in terms of charges.

Personally I do think that all markets including wedesign, software development, are effected by underbidding and eventually the amount profitable jobs worth doing does decrease.

I recently got completely sucker-punched by another designer, I gave a quote for a bit of work [brand/logo work I think it was] and got an email back saying 'well actually the other quote we got was significantly less. We thought it was a bit low but one of the girls here knows him so we're going with it.' - She attached his quote too [quite a strange thing to do], and he'd undercut me by about 1,500 - completely undercharging for the work, probably just to ensure he got it. Makes me glad I'm not relying on this kind of work because it really really pissed me off.

RicardoSmith

dangerman wrote:

...She attached his quote too [quite a strange thing to do],....

Well if they couldn't be professional about that, and didn't ask you questions why the other quote was so much cheaper then I'd say they'd probably be consistently unprofessional throughout the project.

Some designers, webdesign companies have generic templates and content managment systems that they can leverage to spit out a very fast site, which can mean they are a lot cheaper. However it does tie the client into the system. Which has plus'es and minus'es for both parties. But perhaps you can see from the quote that this isn't the case here. Just a thought though. I worked with one place that could create a site, online shop and implement a payment gateway in half a day. It would look decent though obviously a generic template. Getting the clients content online and any customisation would be on top of that. But they had means to speed that up too, with scanners with document feeders etc, you could pull a brochure apart and online in a couple of days.

JustHalf

Dangerman: ditto. A couple of years ago, as a favour, I was charging 650 euro to redesign a clients website. He was a friend of the family, so I was charging less than the bare minimum.

He decided not to go with me, as another designer was charging 150. I couldn't compete with him on price, and that's what was most important to this client.

I've since learned that the best clients to work for are those that care primarily about the quality of the output I produce, and value it. This has knock-on effects far outside the scope of pricing.

If a client wants simply "a website", I've found that they will be less willing to provide material on time, and to be less willing to work on the website (remember, a clients input is important throughout the process).

It's impossible to design a website well if the client doesn't really know what they want it for or who they are aiming the site at. Hopefully this is because they just haven't thought about it enough, but sometimes it's because they just don't care.

It's part of our job as web designers to educate our clients about this. You'll have to excuse us if we get a bit caught up with people charging peanuts for a website, regardless of the final quality... it devalues our work in the eyes of the market, and makes people think "websites are easy". A random geocities page is, a Flickr or Boards.ie is not.

Keyzer

kbannon wrote:

While you are at it, how much is in your bank account?

What a stupid comment....

I asked a question out of curiosity.
He declined to answer.
I explained why I asked and that I meant no harm.
He took no offence.
End of story.

Why are you taking offence?

RicardoSmith

Jeez its Friday guyz chill... :cool:

Eventually you learn to identify the clients & friends who are just going to be more grief than the job is worth. Best to avoid. If you are competing just on price, then they'll always find someone cheaper. You can't win. You need to establish a client base that wants YOU for your skills, professionalism, creativity and style. You also need a good working relationship between you. You don't want clients that will make your life hell.

Bard

Keyzer wrote:

Why are you taking offence?

He's not,- he's just being a smartarse.

... and he's far from the only one.

Seth Brundle

Keyzer wrote:

What a stupid comment....

I asked a question out of curiosity.
He declined to answer.
I explained why I asked and that I meant no harm.
He took no offence.
End of story.

Why are you taking offence?

as Bard said, Im only being a smart arse but at the same time it is not the kind of question one should ever ask. It is like asking "how much do you earn?"!

RicardoSmith

kbannon wrote:

as Bard said, Im only being a smart arse but at the same time it is not the kind of question one should ever ask. It is like asking "how much do you earn?"!

Why not?

Seth Brundle

RicardoSmith wrote:

Why not?

OK, fair enough.
By the way, Ricardo, how much do you earn?

snappieT

Bard wrote:

By "elitist show-off replies" I'll presume you mean replies from professionals who do web development for a living as opposed to replies from teenage bedroom-based Frontpage junkie monkeys who just pull a site development fee out of their arses.

Enter me. Teenage. Bedroom based. Dreamweaver (god I hate Microsoft). Not a junkie (yet, maybe after my paycheck)

And finally, site development. Rather than trying to fist myself, I decided to ask boardies, those with experience and more cop-on than myself.



Cheers for all the suggestions BTW, interesting how far away from my original figures we are talking. I was thinking 80 - 150 tops. Keep the suggestions coming.

Thanks again,
snappie

RicardoSmith

kbannon wrote:

OK, fair enough.
By the way, Ricardo, how much do you earn?

Not enough.

Keyzer

kbannon wrote:

as Bard said, Im only being a smart arse but at the same time it is not the kind of question one should ever ask. It is like asking "how much do you earn?"!

I didn't ask you, I asked Justhalf.
Its up to him to deem the question as "a question one should ever ask"...
There was no offence to justhalf intended and he didn't take any so....

end of story.....

Bard

Keyzer wrote:

I didn't ask you, I asked Justhalf.
Its up to him to deem the question as "a question one should ever ask"...
There was no offence to justhalf intended and he didn't take any so....

end of story.....

It's a public forum, Keyzer, - anyone at all can deem the question inappropriate if they so wish and post a message to that effect if they want to. Just because you addressed a message directly to Justhalf doesn't mean nobody else can reply and give their opinion on it. Chill out. Bit of a dead subject now anyway...

Back on point:-

snapscan1212p wrote:

And finally, site development. Rather than trying to fist myself, I decided to ask boardies, those with experience and more cop-on than myself.

This was a good idea. Frankly, though, it's been asked a million times before and yes, it's a pity there isn't a sticky thread about amateur web development and the fees one can expect to charge for such a service.

snapscan1212p wrote:

]
Cheers for all the suggestions BTW, interesting how far away from my original figures we are talking. I was thinking 80 - 150 tops. Keep the suggestions coming.

That's grand - but I'd suggest you don't dare charge any more than two to five hundred... tops. You've got professionals suggesting professional fees here - you can't hope to charge anywhere near the same yet.