Article - Penalty Points & Foreign Licences

Seth Brundle

From todays Oirish Times

Question From Mike Wiltshire:

I'm an Irish resident driving in Ireland on a full British licence. I have recently incurred two penalty points for speeding and was later notified that my details were being held on the National Driver Database.

Wanting to know if I should notify my insurer, how long the points last etc, I called the contact number on the notification letter. I was told:

1: The points will be held indefinitely.

2: When the Department of Transport is able to, it will apply the points to my British licence - the points will last three years from that date.

3: If I choose to get an Irish licence at any time in the future, the points will be applied at that time and will run for three years.

It was also clarified that, if I get an Irish licence in 20 years time but clock up 15 points on the National Driver Database in the meantime, I would immediately lose that licence.

I was told that it's "up to me" whether I notify my insurer of the points at this time - no legislation or other guidance is currently in place.

I feel that it's wholly unfair for any individual to have this penalty point sentence hanging over them indefinitely. I'd prefer to "serve my time" with the points immediately. Had this been the case, I'd now be nearly eight months into my three-year sentence. As things stand. I've still got a three-year suspended sentence hanging over my licence.

---

It's another indictment of the current system. Clearly the comments you received and those I got on the case suggest that, as points have not been issued on your licence, you are under no obligation to inform your insurance company.

The limbo you find yourself in is actually worse than Irish licence-holders. We can incur several points over the three-year period, but after that they begin to be cancelled out. You, however, accumulate points until the two Governments or the EU get their acts together and cross reference the national systems. Even if that's in five years, points will accumulate against you in a way no Irish licence-holder faces.

The best advice would seem to be to get an Irish licence quickly and get rid of the points in the following three years.

The system seems weighted against non-national licence- holders in a way not faced by Irish licence-holders. You benefit at present from the lack of European co-ordination, but you will be punished in the future for Government delays. This seems inequitable compared to Irish motorists and suggests that you could mount a legal challenge. However, we strongly stress that only a lawyer would be able to advise on this.

monkeyman

I've no sympathy for him. The majority of people travelling or indeed living in Southern Ireland with British passports are always speeding etc because nothing could be done to them.

Bout time something was done.

Seth Brundle

and your source is?
My wife has a UK (Northern Ireland!) Licence. She passed a more superior test than the shambles here and is recognised throughout the EU. Now she could be punished harshly for keeping it?

Alun

As a matter of interest, how long do UK licences last these days? I know they used to last until you were 65, or something, but has that changed? My Dutch licence, in line with many other EU countries, lasts 10 years, so I've got another 5 years to go before I have to exchange it.

Imposter

Alun wrote:

As a matter of interest, how long do UK licences last these days? I know they used to last until you were 65, or something, but has that changed? My Dutch licence, in line with many other EU countries, lasts 10 years, so I've got another 5 years to go before I have to exchange it.

My Austrian one lasts forever although a guard, who is a friend of the family, said that I would have to exchange it for an irish one after a certain length of time should I return. I can't really understand why either as surely an EU licence is an EU licence!

Alun

Imposter wrote:

My Austrian one lasts forever although a guard, who is a friend of the family, said that I would have to exchange it for an irish one after a certain length of time should I return. I can't really understand why either as surely an EU licence is an EU licence!

That's complete bollix. You can exchange it any time you want to, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

See http://tinyurl.com/5bkqj.

Imposter

Alun wrote:

That's complete bollix. You can exchange it any time you want to, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

See http://tinyurl.com/5bkqj.

Interesting:
The holder of a driving licence issued by the competent authority of another member state of the European Union or of the European Economic Area (i.e. EU + Norway, Liechenstein and Iceland) may drive in Ireland on that licence for the duration of its validity. However, if you wish, you may apply for exchange to an equivalent Irish licence. Application for exchange must be made within ten years of expiry of the licence.

Must tell him he was talking through his arse next time I see him!

meepmeep

monkeyman wrote:

I've no sympathy for him. The majority of people travelling or indeed living in Southern Ireland with British passports are always speeding etc because nothing could be done to them.

Bout time something was done.

How do you know this exactly?

Such ignorance :mad:

Merrion

If, on the other hand, you have UK points on a UK license and you exchange the license for an irish one those points vanish into history...or so I'm told.

XT_Dweezil

I got a swedish license and drive with it here ir Ireland, it´s valid until 2011.
I got caught speeding and the garda told me that i would receive 2 penalty points to my license, but sweden doesn´t use penalty points.

So what gonna happend? Nothing I guess since it was a year ago and i haven´t heard anything of it since then.

Seth Brundle

Merrion wrote:

If, on the other hand, you have UK points on a UK license and you exchange the license for an irish one those points vanish into history...or so I'm told.

True, because the UK points system is legal and fair unlike the system rushed into place here!

Seth Brundle

XT_Dweezil wrote:

I got a swedish license and drive with it here ir Ireland, it´s valid until 2011.
I got caught speeding and the garda told me that i would receive 2 penalty points to my license, but sweden doesn´t use penalty points.

So what gonna happend? Nothing I guess since it was a year ago and i haven´t heard anything of it since then.

If you were driving an Irish registered car then the points will be kept warm for you until both Sweden adopts a points system and also when countries accross Europe work together.
If you were driving a foreign registered car then I think sweet FA as they can't find out who is the owner.

unkel

Thanks kbannon for your research!

I have my doubts about how this will hold up in the courts. Consider this scenario:

Carlo BoyRacerio from Italy met Aoife last summer. They promised to write and they did. He came over to Ireland over the Christmas period to meet up with her folks. Carlo (18 with full Italian license) was given Dada's scooby to take Aoife out a few times

Carlo unknowingly got zapped/flashed/radared 6 times in it. Dada got notification of 12 penalty points. After a long and difficult communication process all parties agreed it was Carlo that got the points, not Dada

Happy ending when 60 years later when Carlo and Aoife, living in Italy, with 12 children and 144 grandchildren, decide to visit Ireland. Obviously the points system has been uniformed within the EU by that time. Carlo drives off the boat and a Garda (Police Service of Southern Ireland) stops him and confiscates his license :rolleyes:

Horeb

Well Guys,

I regularly drive in Louth and Border Area's and I would hope a Cross Border if not an EU Database come into play to put penatly points etc on licenses.

I have to deal with the majority of time Lawless Northern Irish and UK Reg drivers on the M1, N1 and N2.

These drivers in general flout the law as they can merely only get a fine and no more, this is not a generalisation but I could confidently say 90% of drivers from the North are guilty of the following:

1.) The National Speed Limit on Roads is 60 Mph soon to be 62.5 Mph, they break this by going at speeds in excess of 80 to 100+ Mph, in sometimes very dangerous conditions i.e Snow,Rain, Wind etc

2.) On the M1 they actually leave a lot of southern motorists standing with their Land Speed records and again still only get a fine if caught.

3.) Trucks from NI and the UK, constantly break the Speed Limit 55 MPH Max Speed, I have seen these trucks overtake cars at 75MPH, the trucks are overladed quite a lot of the time, the incident in Slane where a child got Murdered by one is a prime example.

4.) I have been tailgated on a constant basis by these idiots young, old and middle aged all from NI and with the same mentality or trying to kill you for a small piece of road they will never own.

5.) Reg Plates purposely filthy for the sake of people not seeing there reg's.

I could go on and on we have problems down here but in the border area's they are plagued with this,Louth also has the highest insurance in Ireland and an Article in the Local Newspaper the Argus indicated that Northern Drivers were the main cause for this again Flouting the Law.

And by the way when they drive in the North they are just as bad.

In a Nutshell they are dangerous morons that need to be thought a lesson, with a zero hardcore police approach to locking them up and scraping their cars and make them pay head.

Seth Brundle

I don't think there is any disagreement on that. However, the storage of their points until a later date should not be allowed. If they are caught commiting a crime they should be punished at the time not years later.

MrPudding

Horeb-Security wrote:

......Louth and Border Area's and I would hope a Cross Border if not an EU Database come into play to put penatly points etc on licenses.

Blah Blah Blah...... insert typical satanic northie drivers rubbish generalisations here.

I too look forward to this so the moronic southern drivers, most of whom have probably never even sat a driving test, can get point for their bad driving North of the border.

Cop on.

MrP

Horeb

MrPudding wrote:

I too look forward to this so the moronic southern drivers, most of whom have probably never even sat a driving test, can get point for their bad driving North of the border.

Cop on.

MrP

The reason why a lot of drivers in the North have got there license is because the tester is afraid of the hassle they may get from a person who may make a nod and wink at someone to knee cap them etc. This is fact and has been reported in several Northern and Southern Papers over the years check the likes of the Belfast Telegraph etc, The test down here is almost the same if not harder.

Our standard of driving while not being outstanding is a lot better and we are better behaved than our nothern counterparts, who should as all off us be dealt with extreme zero tolerance.

Seth Brundle

Oh FFS!
Thats bull - the standard of driving is superior in the North. Sure, most people down here can't drive properly! (Im speaking as a southern licence holder who regularly travels North).

Anyway, I reckon it is now time to close this.

MrPudding

Horeb-Security wrote:

Our standard of driving while not being outstanding is a lot better and we are better behaved than our nothern counterparts, who should as all off us be dealt with extreme zero tolerance.

What? Most people down here don't even know you are supposed to stop at a fcuking red light.

Cop on mate and take a look arround you. Take off the rose tinted glasses and try to take an objective view of your fellow countrymen.

MrP

unkel

Horeb-Security wrote:

Our standard of driving while not being outstanding is a lot better and we are better behaved than our nothern counterparts

What? :eek:

The standard of driving of the vast majority of drivers is enormously better up north in my experience

ambro25

Horeb-Security wrote:

5.) Reg Plates purposely filthy for the sake of people not seeing there reg's.

Funny that, most cars around Dublin (M50/Town center) of which I can't read the plate because of accumulate dirt are IE...

Imposter wrote:

My Austrian one lasts forever although a guard, who is a friend of the family, said that I would have to exchange it for an irish one after a certain length of time should I return.

AND

Imposter wrote:

Interesting:
The holder of a driving licence issued by the competent authority of another member state of the European Union or of the European Economic Area (i.e. EU + Norway, Liechenstein and Iceland) may drive in Ireland on that licence for the duration of its validity. However, if you wish, you may apply for exchange to an equivalent Irish licence.

I've had my French license since '90, passed it first time aged 18, with flying colors after doing "Conduite Accompagnée" since age 16 (had to drive under supervision at all times). I've since rolled my stone over most corners of Europe, and some much more exotic places too.

The only reason why your Gardai friend would tell you that (and the public authorities would invite you to swap your license for a local one) is so that you become assimilated 'into the system' and they can therefore get their pound of flesh if/when the occasion calls for it, e.g. fines/points/etc. I've already been 'targeted' once by undercover Gardai, on a sunny Saturday afternoon not so long ago, who said the exact same thing... they weren't too happy when I stated (only after they really started to take the proverbial p***) that no, I didn't have to under both EU and Irish legislation and that no, I wouldn't.

Horeb

unkel wrote:

What? :eek:

The standard of driving of the vast majority of drivers is enormously better up north in my experience

That is a matter of Opinion my friend but to be honest the attitude toward free for all Republic should be driven home (pardon the pun) as in Dundalk and such other area's the disgust and dislike toward these people is at boiling point and unfortunately if it has not already happened a serious road rage incident could occur because of this attitude. Possibly involving a death as in recent week have seen a middle aged man from dundalk batter a northern who nearly killed him and his female passenger and then the man from dundalk got abuse....

Anyone from Louth Border area's like to comment

ambro25

Why did he batter the northern guy after the fact? If nobody was injured, the Dundalk guy should have called Gardai and left it at that.

That 'road rage' comment is not indicative of any skills comparison, nor relevant to the issue at hand, I believe.

So there's antipathy towards foreigners in the Republic, so what? It's not as if we don't already know there's a xenophobism problem here, do we?

MrPudding

This is just typical of a lot of people in the south. Blame whatever problems there are on others.

I agree that there are some tosser drivers in the North and that some of them take advantage of the fact that there is unlike to be any legal redress for there bad driving once they cross the border. I accept that.

The question is though, do you accept that *some* southern drivers behave the same way when they cross the border?

I have lost count of the number of time I have almost been involved in accidents here in Dublin, not because I am a Northie driver, but bacasue a significant minority of drivers here seem to be unable / unwilling to drive peoperly and obey the rules of the road.

Red light breaking is almost unknown in the North. It is endemic. I have almost been rearended a number of time for having the cheek to stop at a red light. This is a particular pet hate of mine but not the only issue.

Before you critisise drivers from the north have a quiet moment of reflection. Think about these few points:

1. The bad things you say northies do in the south, southerners do in the north. Does this not count for anything?
2. Is a country where you don't even have to sit a test really in a position to be critical of another countries driving and make mass generalisations of the basis of the behaviour of a minority of tosser drivers?
3. Think about how many time you have "almost" been in an accident, how many of those times was it a southern driver ignoring the rules of the road.

You need to seriously cop on.

MrP

Horeb

Response time for Gardai in Dundalk is between 6 hours and never

MrPudding

Horeb-Security wrote:

Possibly involving a death as in recent week have seen a middle aged man from dundalk batter a northern who nearly killed him and his female passenger and then the man from dundalk got abuse....

Anyone from Louth Border area's like to comment

TBH this says more about the fcuking stupidity of the Dundalk guy than it does of the bad driving from the Northie.

If I batter someone for everytime they have almost caused me to be in an accident I would never get out of prison. Incidently I have had more near misses in 4 years of driving south of the border than I had in 10 years driving in the North. And by the way I am not one of the Northie that flouts the law here.

MrP

MrPudding

Horeb-Security wrote:

Response time for Gardai in Dundalk is between 6 hours and never

Oh. Why didn't you say that earlier.That makes it perfectly accetpable to beat someone up for "nearly" causing an accident. Hopefully the judge will see it just cause for handing out a beating.

MrP

Horeb

MrPudding wrote:

This is just typical of a lot of people in the south. Blame whatever problems there are on others.

I agree that there are some tosser drivers in the North and that some of them take advantage of the fact that there is unlike to be any legal redress for there bad driving once they cross the border. I accept that.

The question is though, do you accept that *some* southern drivers behave the same way when they cross the border?

I have lost count of the number of time I have almost been involved in accidents here in Dublin, not because I am a Northie driver, but bacasue a significant minority of drivers here seem to be unable / unwilling to drive peoperly and obey the rules of the road.

Red light breaking is almost unknown in the North. It is endemic. I have almost been rearended a number of time for having the cheek to stop at a red light. This is a particular pet hate of mine but not the only issue.

Before you critisise drivers from the north have a quiet moment of reflection. Think about these few points:

1. The bad things you say northies do in the south, southerners do in the north. Does this not count for anything?
2. Is a country where you don't even have to sit a test really in a position to be critical of another countries driving and make mass generalisations of the basis of the behaviour of a minority of tosser drivers?
3. Think about how many time you have "almost" been in an accident, how many of those times was it a southern driver ignoring the rules of the road.

You need to seriously cop on.

MrP

I do agree we have our fair share but in the border area's a lot of issues are caused by the afformentioned Northerners !

ambro25

Horeb-Security wrote:

Response time for Gardai in Dundalk is between 6 hours and never

So? You're saying the Dundalk guy was therefore justified to take the law in his own hands because Gardai may not show up?

At any rate, who's to say the northern guy didn't have to do some fancy wheelwork in order to avoid some stupid driving mistake by that Dundalk guy in the first place, which subsequently scared the Dundalk guy?

I've had that happen to me 3 times already in less than 3 months in Dublin :eek: - 'been taking verbal abuse from blissfully ignorant pedants who think nothing of pulling out on you at less than 25 meters' distance when you're coming along at 30 mph, minding your business (and thankfully the road as well).

por

I have a US (Massachusetts) license and a full Irish License. I have never been caught speeding and have no plans in ever being caught, for the most part I obey the limits and am not an habitual speeder.

However if I am caught in my own car doing 2kph over the limit at the begining or end of a 30 or 50 kph zone by some padentic cop I am whipping out the US license and telling them I am on holidays.
What will happen to me ???

BTW Massachusetts does not have a points system, you get a hefty fine ($10 for the 1st 10 miles over the limit and $10 for every mile after that) if you get 3 speeding tickets in 12 months you are off the road for 30 days!!!!

ambro25

ROFL!!!

Ah well... they do love their cars, bless'em

impr0v

With the information in (the early part of) this thread could an individual with 9 penalty points, or even 12, on an Irish/EU licence temporarily relocate to NI or the UK, sit a test and get him/herself a licence that would entitle him/her to drive again on Irish roads?

I don't know the process behind getting a UK licence, and it presumably takes a while and possibly some proof of residence, but surely it would be worthwhile to someone facing a period off the road, especially if they needed their licence to work. He/She then uses the UK licence for the period of his disqualification, after which he/she gets their proper licence back and reverts to using that.

unkel

por wrote:

Massachusetts does not have a points system, you get a hefty fine ($10 for the 1st 10 miles over the limit and $10 for every mile after that) if you get 3 speeding tickets in 12 months you are off the road for 30 days!!!!

So driving your Ferrari at 200mph on a 75mph interstate will cost you $10 + $10 * (200-75-10) = $1160

Not quite a bargain, but better than here

unkel

impr0v wrote:

on an Irish/EU licence temporarily relocate to NI or the UK, sit a test and get him/herself a licence that would entitle him/her to drive again on Irish roads?

Nope. When changing one EU license for another one, you have to hand in your old one. I think holding more than one EU license is illegal

Can go the US route though

ambro25

Problem is that if you're banned 'in the system' of the country in which you drive and happen to be controlled again whilst banned, US license or not, you're in the sh*t, me thinks...

por

ambro25 wrote:

Problem is that if you're banned 'in the system' of the country in which you drive and happen to be controlled again whilst banned, US license or not, you're in the sh*t, me thinks...

Well it's not a case of being banned (I have no plans on amassing 12 pts) it's a case of can I 'dodge' 2 (in my opinion unfair) pts by flashing the US license ?

unkel wrote:

So driving your Ferrari at 200mph on a 75mph interstate will cost you $10 + $10 * (200-75-10) = $1160

Not quite a bargain, but better than here

Well the speed limit on the freeway os actually 65 so it would be $10 + $10*(200-65-10) = $1260

The good thing about it is that you can go 75 in 65 zone without being caught as no cop is going to stop you for a $ 10 fine.

ambro25

por wrote:

Well it's not a case of being banned (I have no plans on amassing 12 pts) it's a case of can I 'dodge' 2 (in my opinion unfair) pts by flashing the US license ?

yes, sorry, my post may have been unclear - what I meant was that by all means flash you US license (as I flash my French one), but if someone was ever 'on record' as banned in, say, Ireland (on the back of his/her Irish license having 12 pts thereon), being stopped during the banning period and flashing a US/GB/Polynesian license for justification would be a sure way to get into even more trouble, as the banning is not attached to the license, but the person.

serotonin_sam

When did this come into effect?

Does it apply to drink driving too?

How long till we see an integrated EU points system?

ambro25

It's not a case of 'coming into effect' - it's a case of a Court decision (to ban a driver from driving) being delivered against a person (the driver), rather than against a piece of paper (the license).

Put simply, you are refused the permission to drive for a set period, whether you have a license, no license (yes, there have been cases :rolleyes: ), 100s of licenses for different vehicle classes (bike, lorry, bus, etc, etc.)

At least, that's the way driving bans work in the UK, in France, in Germany, in Luxembourg and in Belgium... Might yet be different here - and it wouldn't surprise me either !

EDIT: AND INSOFAR AS DRINK-DRIVING IS CONCERNED, THERE SHOULDN'T BE (AND ISN'T AS FAR AS I KNOW) ANY WAY TO DODGE THE CHARGE - THE CULPRIT SHOULD BE FLOGGED, DRAWN AND QUARTERED :mad:

unkel

por wrote:

Well the speed limit on the freeway os actually 65

Depends where you're driving. It's either 65, 70 or 75 on interstates, depending on the state. Majority of states have 70

Massachusetts is 65. Left wing pinkos

serotonin_sam

ambro25 wrote:

It's not a case of 'coming into effect' - it's a case of a Court decision (to ban a driver from driving) being delivered against a person (the driver), rather than against a piece of paper (the license).

But surely they won't apply this retro-actively when they introduce the integrated system?? Or at least I would expect that the law won't be applied retro=actively - for new points yes, but not old ones.
Say for example this was introduced jan.1st 2006. Are we suggesting that the irish authorities would be responsible for ensuring that the people that have clocked up points abroad pay outstanding fines - and if necessary - are put off the road?

Our man in Havana

unkel wrote:

Depends where you're driving. It's either 65, 70 or 75 on interstates, depending on the state. Majority of states have 70

Massachusetts is 65. Left wing pinkos

Montana has no day time speed limit at all!

http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/mt-law.html

Points:
Drag racing/speed contests: 5
DUI: 10
Leaving the scene of an accident (death/injury): 8
Leaving the scene of an accident (vehicle damage only): 4
Operating with a suspended/revoked license: 6
Operating without insurance: 5
Operating without a license: 2
Reckless driving: 5
Speeding: 3
Vehicular assault: 12
Vehicular homicide: 15
All other moving violations are worth 2 points.

You're considered a habitual traffic offender if you get 30 or more points in a three year period. If two or more charges are filed concurrently, only the offense carrying the highest point value can be charged against you. (ref. 61-11-203, MCA)

ambro25

serotonin_sam wrote:

Say for example this was introduced jan.1st 2006. Are we suggesting that the irish authorities would be responsible for ensuring that the people that have clocked up points abroad pay outstanding fines - and if necessary - are put off the road?

Not at all - where does this come from? I'm not really following you...

All my posts are in relation to a driver driving in Eire and having an Irish license and a second foreign license, say a French or US license.

So long as there is no ban pronounced against you by a Irish Tribunal/Court, use the Irish one to get insurance (cheaper) and the foreign one when you're controlled as it's a most potent symbol of "red tape to come".

If you're banned in Ireland, however, you just don't have the right to drive during the sentence under any license, period.

Seth Brundle

Bond-007 wrote:

Montana has no day time speed limit at all!

http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/mt-law.html

Points:
Drag racing/speed contests: 5
DUI: 10
Leaving the scene of an accident (death/injury): 8
Leaving the scene of an accident (vehicle damage only): 4
Operating with a suspended/revoked license: 6
Operating without insurance: 5
Operating without a license: 2
Reckless driving: 5
Speeding: 3
Vehicular assault: 12
Vehicular homicide: 15
All other moving violations are worth 2 points.

You're considered a habitual traffic offender if you get 30 or more points in a three year period. If two or more charges are filed concurrently, only the offense carrying the highest point value can be charged against you. (ref. 61-11-203, MCA)

so you can kill two people in any three year period before you are put off the road???? :rolleyes:

dominicbond

Has there been any change with the situation of points being held in suspension?
I lived in Ireland until 2003 and shortly before leaving I was caught speeding and received a €80 fine and 2 penalty points. Since I had a UK licence the points were held on a database until if and when and if I receive an Irish licence in the future. Shortly afterwards I returned to the UK.

Now ten years later I have returned to Ireland and am considering exchanging my UK licence for an Irish one. Since so much time has now elapsed is it reasonable to have these points added? Could this be challenged in the courts? If these points are added would it affect my insurance due to their age?

In hindsight I should had exchanged my licence for an Irish one ten years ago and then after moving back to the UK I should had changed it for a UK one. This would had meant that the points would had died when exchanging the Irish licence back to a British one.

Thanks

Alanstrainor

This thread is 8 years old. Please start a new one!