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Quickie re Penalty Points

  • 04-01-2005 9:00pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,209 ✭✭✭✭


    Just a quick question regarding penalty points....
    Managed to get myself a speeding fine for doing 65 in a 60 zone. Obviously I tried pleading with the Guard, he just wasnt interested.

    I paid the fine today (for the sake of an easy life).
    OK so heres the thing..
    1) Am I 100% guaranteed to get 2 points on my license?
    2) How long do points stay on your license for?
    3) Im on a provisional, but have my test coming up soon... If I get my full license, will the points be carried over?

    Now I know I can appeal or whatever because I was given no print out, etc. blah blah spam rant.... But I just cant be bothered

    Thanks for any advise


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You accepted 65 in a 60? You aren't willing to question the fact that he acted illegally by giving you a punishment with no proof of a crime.
    I have to say that yes, you will get points which will haunt you for at least* the next 3 years and you deserve them!

    * you are aware of the pending points and therefore must declare them when looking for insurance and asked. However, I bleieve that you may not actually recieve them for two years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,225 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    JohnCleary wrote:
    Now I know I can appeal or whatever because I was given no print out

    I think that loop has just been closed. Don't appeal, it will only double your points to 4 :(

    Answers to your questions:

    1. Pretty much. It might get lost somewhere in the process, but don't count on it
    2. As kbannon said: 3 years from when they hit your license. This could be some time after the speeding happened
    3. Yes


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Tommy Vercetti


    kbannon wrote:
    * you are aware of the pending points and therefore must declare them when looking for insurance and asked. However, I bleieve that you may not actually recieve them for two years.

    Pending points aren't really points since the three year thing only comes into effect when they are added to your license, not when you were allegedly speeding, therefore if your insurance is due for renewal in the interim, you do not have to declare anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭trotter_inc


    Pending points aren't really points since the three year thing only comes into effect when they are added to your license

    How do you know when they've been put onto your licence?

    I moved up from Limerick to Dublin about 5 months ago. The address on my licence is still my Limerick address (have sent in the form to get a new one with my Dublin address) and Im afraid in the mean time Ive picked up points from one of those mounted speed cameras without actually knowing it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    I moved up from Limerick to Dublin about 5 months ago. The address on my licence is still my Limerick address (have sent in the form to get a new one with my Dublin address) and Im afraid in the mean time Ive picked up points from one of those mounted speed cameras without actually knowing it!

    The summons goes to the address at which the car is registered. They don't know the address on your license until you tell them.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭trotter_inc


    alias no.9 wrote:
    The summons goes to the address at which the car is registered. They don't know the address on your license until you tell them.

    Ah ok - I changed this about a month ago - would they have told me if Ive got penalty points when changing this address?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭lomb


    65 in a 60 for f%$k sakes. theres something wrong there. i thought they allow u 10% +3mph as leeway?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭DirtyDog


    kbannon wrote:
    I have to say that yes, you will get points which will haunt you for at least* the next 3 years and you deserve them!

    A little harsh dont you think?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭trotter_inc


    DirtyDog wrote:
    A little harsh dont you think?

    I agree - I often might hit 65 in a 60 zone without even realising it! I thought you'd get away with this anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    65 in a 60 for f%$k sakes. theres something wrong there. i thought they allow u 10% +3mph as leeway?

    Of course not! That's 68mph almost 70! However, I believe that the fixed speed cameras have a 10% threshold (possibly so that they don't run out of film and can catch the real speeders).

    If you're caught doing 62 in a 60 then you might have grounds for complaint. If you're doing 65 you're fair game.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,225 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    BrianD wrote:
    If you're caught doing 62 in a 60 then you might have grounds for complaint. If you're doing 65 you're fair game.

    Why?

    Afaik there is very little leeway apart from equipment margin of error in Ireland. I feel there should be a lot more leeway though, to prevent road users from concentrating on their speedo all the time


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    If you are unable to drive at a set speed without constantly watching your speedo you should not be behind the wheel. Deviating by 2-3 mph up or down is acceptable 5 or more is not. You don't have to watch your speedo all the time you just check it routinely as you would check your mirrors.

    What do you mean by a lot more leeway?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    I think that loop has just been closed. Don't appeal, it will only double your points to 4 :(

    The loophole is yet to be closed. Could take another 6-8 months to close. There was another load of no printout cases thrown out in the west recently.

    Anyways since you paid up (sap!) you have forfeited all rights to appeal. You should have held onto your money and fought the summons when it arrived.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    DirtyDog wrote:
    A little harsh dont you think?
    Not really - I would contest an unfair and illegal punishment like that. If JohnCleary is happy enough to accept being punished for this by both the state and his insurance company (surely he is paying enough to them already) then thats fine and as I said he deserves the extra cost but I would not be happy!
    I doubt there is anyone out there who has never stepped over the speed limit (including BrianD!) and they shouldn't be crucified for it!


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Also read http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motoring/2004/1215/3012312339MOT15LEAD.html
    It reports on how a Judge dismissed a number of speeding cases because the non-issuing of printed evidence is illegal.
    However, the local constabulary shall remain defiant and continue to use illegal practices!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    BrianD wrote:
    Deviating by 2-3 mph up or down is acceptable, 5 or more is not.

    Cyborg! :D;)
    BrianD wrote:
    You don't have to watch your speedo all the time you just check it routinely as you would check your mirrors.

    Not an argument that would hold much water in court, I concede, but it depends on what you drive:

    if I drive my MX-5 (1.8, 130 bhp), it's very easy for the speedo to jump by 5 mph in-between two 'glances', as the gears are very low-staged (40mph = 1900/2000 rpm in 4th) but it's quite torquey - tbh, I struggle to drive at 30 mph (but make a concerted effort to), since it's a really awkward speed for striking an ideal gear/rpm combination (3rd feels too high @ 2,500/2,700 at 30). 40 would be ideal. But then signs says 30, soo :(

    likewise (and comparatively), when I was driving my dad's C5 in France at Xmas, I just couldn't believe what speed the speedo said I was doing: 60 mph, it felt like 40 mph... Big car, comfy, silent - less 'sensory input' so harder to 'drive by ear/seat' (and more-or-less 'instinctively' know if you're within the 2/3mph or over).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,209 ✭✭✭✭JohnCleary


    Oh my god im kicking myself.. but not really.

    Reason I payed up was because im on my provisional, I wasnt displaying L Plates (Not my car, rarely drive it) and I wasnt in the car with a qualified driver.

    I challenged the Garda on scene to 'show me proof' that I was speeding. He turned around and said "I'm not going to lie if this goes to court, you were speeding. Also, if this goes to court youll get a summons for driving with no L Plates and no qualified driver"

    I think I was better off paying the fine... Can't be arsed about insurance its only an extra few quid on my insurance next year


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Fair enough - you were damned either way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    JohnCleary wrote:
    Oh my god im kicking myself.. but not really.

    Reason I payed up was because im on my provisional, I wasnt displaying L Plates (Not my car, rarely drive it) and I wasnt in the car with a qualified driver.

    I challenged the Garda on scene to 'show me proof' that I was speeding. He turned around and said "I'm not going to lie if this goes to court, you were speeding. Also, if this goes to court youll get a summons for driving with no L Plates and no qualified driver"

    I think I was better off paying the fine... Can't be arsed about insurance its only an extra few quid on my insurance next year

    So basically, you was out bombing along without a qualified driver and no L plates? Be glad you got let off with just 2 points and a small fine, that offence would get ya up into court for a nice fine and possible suspension of your license on it's own, if the judge decided. Add in the challenging your fine in relation to that, you'd be lucky not to get an endorsed license as well as 4 points and a nice big fine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    OT:
    Doesn't no L plates or R plates up north == instant loss of license

    Also, restricted speeds for learners and newly qualified drivers (first 6 months) , bout time they were introduced down here.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,549 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Getting points for doing 65 in a 60 does seem a bit harsh. However when you consider that JohnCleary's speedo was probably showing around 70-72 mph (as the vast majority of speedos overread by at least 5 mph at this speed) it seems less harsh.

    BrianD3


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Bogger77 wrote:
    OT:
    Doesn't no L plates or R plates up north == instant loss of license

    Also, restricted speeds for learners and newly qualified drivers (first 6 months) , bout time they were introduced down here.
    It depends. Driving without R plates would usually earn you an extended restricted period for a first offense, the same I think for no L plates, both with a fine. A learner being unaccompanied would result in a ban from driving and a fine.

    MrP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,209 ✭✭✭✭JohnCleary


    BrianD3 wrote:
    Getting points for doing 65 in a 60 does seem a bit harsh. However when you consider that JohnCleary's speedo was probably showing around 70-72 mph (as the vast majority of speedos overread by at least 5 mph at this speed) it seems less harsh.

    BrianD3

    My cars Speedo is spot on, it was dyno'ed not so long ago, when its new wheels were put on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    My car's speedo is out by 5mph at 62mph, and by 6mph at 70mph.
    Thats checking using GPS and a few radar traps.

    all analogue speedo's are out by a small percent, my trip computer is much more accurate for speed (average speed etc) than my Dial speedo.

    to show up as doing 65 on garda radar, I'd have to be showing 73-75 mph on my analogue speedo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    JohnCleary wrote:
    My cars Speedo is spot on, it was dyno'ed not so long ago, when its new wheels were put on

    just noticed this, so your car has been modified?

    Provisonal Driver, no L plates, no Qualified driver, 8% over speed limit, in a modified car. If you arrived before the local judge in my area (tullamore circuit) you'd end up with a massive fine, 4 points, probably suspended. And you'd be asked to show your car, to a Garda Motor inspector, minus any window tinting, etc. The last guy he sentanced to this, had sold the car on, so he had to re-purchase the car, and replace all the windows, suitable sentence if you ask me.
    edit guy had been caught doing over 80mph in a 60zone


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Dynoing a car says sweet fupp all about the speedo accuracy.
    Speedos are never 100% and as far as I know some manufacturers allow tolerances of up to 10% (usually showing you a higher speed than you are actually doing). Furthermore, as your tyres wear your speedo gives a higher reading. I assume you also did the maths to check if your wider/taller/whatever tyres give the same rolling radius as standard tyres.
    The speed is usually measured at the gearbox so I presume that any traction loss (possibly negligible) also affects accuracy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Interesting, I had heard that most speedos overstate the speed i.e. all things being equal you are actually travelling slower than the speedo indicates.

    I recall while in Australia there is a m-way outside Sydney with a big gantry mounted LED display that shows your speed. The idea is that you can check your speedo. The thing doesn't display over 117KMH to prevent the local boy racers outdoing each other.

    Would the wear and tear on your tyres - a few mm - dramatically alter your speed???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Tommy Vercetti


    Nice to see that we are all trusting the Gardai to be using 100% accurate equipment in their pursuit of road safety :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,225 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    kbannon wrote:
    Speedos are never 100% and as far as I know some manufacturers allow tolerances of up to 10% (usually showing you a higher speed than you are actually doing). Furthermore, as your tyres wear your speedo gives a higher reading. I assume you also did the maths to check if your wider/taller/whatever tyres give the same rolling radius as standard tyres

    Spot on.

    Reporting results of testing the callibration of speedos should be part of car reviews!
    BrianD wrote:
    Interesting, I had heard that most speedos overstate the speed i.e. all things being equal you are actually travelling slower than the speedo indicates

    Yep, see what kbannon said


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Tommy Vercetti


    unkel wrote:
    Spot on.
    Reporting results of testing the callibration of speedos should be part of car reviews!

    Either Car or Autocar used to do that, I haven't seen it around for a while now.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    unkel wrote:
    Spot on.

    Reporting results of testing the callibration of speedos should be part of car reviews!
    Thanks. I love being right! :D
    However, testing the calibration is of relatively limited use as if it was tested then people in general would automatically assume that it is always accurate. ALso testing would presumably be best when the car is in A1 condition with brand new correctly sized & pressured tyres - something not common with cars that use our splendid roads.

    It is possible to measure the (general) accuracy of your instruments by driving over a set distance at a set speed. Aren't lights on main roads (i.e. 'motorways' and dual carriageways) 100m apart? If so then the distance could be easily calculated. However, two things arise from this - 1. you need to stare at your speedo whilst driving to ensure that you are keeping to the set speed (unless you have cruise control!) making the experiment dangerous and also the fact that it can be difficult to keep an even speed on our roads because invariably there will be someone driving slowly in your lane.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 705 ✭✭✭CTU_Agent


    getting back to penalty points and its ridicilous-ness :o of it all, my girlfriends father was clocked by a gatso van on the side of the road doing 32 in a 30 zone and was given to penalty points and the fine....the man is 70 years old for crying out load.... this is no exageration ive seen the notice that was served and those were the speeds that were stated...

    Also, I got stopped by a garda myself at a checkpoint one night and he went to town on me as a provisional driver.... i didnt have my license with me, had no l plates displayed front and rear (2 offences for this although i had them on the floor of the car), i had no qualified driver, and "non conformant reg plates" i had italics on the license plates... I was summonsed with 5 charges as above and luckily the garda in question never showd up so i was counting my lucky stars....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    ns9bg1 wrote:

    Also, I got stopped by a garda myself at a checkpoint one night and he went to town on me as a provisional driver.... i didnt have my license with me, had no l plates displayed front and rear (2 offences for this although i had them on the floor of the car), i had no qualified driver, and "non conformant reg plates" i had italics on the license plates... I was summonsed with 5 charges as above and luckily the garda in question never showd up so i was counting my lucky stars....


    Some use having them L plates on the floor of the car, easily seen from the outside. :rolleyes:

    Why didn't you have them on your car? Were you ashamed or something?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 705 ✭✭✭CTU_Agent


    i think at the time i either took them down to use the motorway or to wash the car windows and they kept falling off or sumting like that.....


    ....I lie about the 2 offences for the l plates, it was 2 offences for the reg plates not conforming on the front and rear of the vehicle.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭lomb


    i suppose 1 way to check accuracy is drive past a gatso, the one outside axa on the longmile road tells u what speed ur doing only as a safety message so its safe.
    all vws are calibrated to show 6-7% over whaat ur doing. ive tested several using gps.
    my fathers coraolla is spot on though.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    ns9bg1 wrote:
    i think at the time i either took them down to use the motorway or to wash the car windows and they kept falling off or sumting like that.....
    QUOTE]

    I rest my case !!

    Have you passed your tested yet? Best feeling in world, taking the plates off and ripping them up :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    lomb wrote:
    my fathers coraolla is spot on though.

    My corolla is off, and has been, since the day I got it. I tend to hold it at 60 on the speedo in know speed trap areas, and closer to real limit in other area's.

    I'll have to recalibrate my reckoning when metric comes into force


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 705 ✭✭✭CTU_Agent


    i have passed my test, ur right getting that official "youve passed" is a great feeling as for ripping up the L plates- the girlfriend is still a learner and on my insurance so ........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,209 ✭✭✭✭JohnCleary


    Bogger77 wrote:
    just noticed this, so your car has been modified?

    Provisonal Driver, no L plates, no Qualified driver, 8% over speed limit, in a modified car. If you arrived before the local judge in my area (tullamore circuit) you'd end up with a massive fine, 4 points, probably suspended. And you'd be asked to show your car, to a Garda Motor inspector, minus any window tinting, etc. The last guy he sentanced to this, had sold the car on, so he had to re-purchase the car, and replace all the windows, suitable sentence if you ask me.
    edit guy had been caught doing over 80mph in a 60zone

    No boy racer mods, just alloys.
    I was never shown by the Garda that I was speeding. If I had my full license id defo have gone to court over it... When asked to produce a 'record' of the speed I was doing...what would the Garda present?

    W4nker Gardai!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭Pataman


    According to last weeks Indo, the printout loophole has been closed. The judge will accept the garda's word.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    JohnCleary wrote:
    No boy racer mods, just alloys.
    I was never shown by the Garda that I was speeding. If I had my full license id defo have gone to court over it... When asked to produce a 'record' of the speed I was doing...what would the Garda present?

    W4nker Gardai!

    2 points with what you've said.
    You were in the wrong, re: driver and L plates. In my experience, just cos he can't issue a written proof of speed, doesn't invalidate the speed gun, Odds on, you were breaking the limit.

    second,
    W4nker Gardai!
    Bet you've been watching your speed since? so he's done his job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    Pataman wrote:
    According to last weeks Indo, the printout loophole has been closed. The judge will accept the garda's word.

    If it's good enough to base a conviction of IRA membership on, it no reason why it can't be used other instances.

    I've only been stopped for speeding once, and the garda offered me the gun to check it's display. It was accurate :o I was well over the limit. pre points though, paid the fine that day on my way past the station.

    Most gardai I've dealt with are normal people, with sense of humour, although I've never insulted them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,209 ✭✭✭✭JohnCleary


    Bogger77 wrote:
    Bet you've been watching your speed since? so he's done his job.

    Have I fu(k


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    JohnCleary wrote:
    Have I fu(k
    In that case, pity he didn't take you to the cleaners


    Some people never learn


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭BobTheBeat


    This is quite an interesting topic... however, one thing I have to say about the traffic cops is that they are bloody inconsistent.
    Last weekend a good friend of mine was pulled over for speeding. Now this guy is only 20, still on a provisional license and paying a fortune for insurance on a 1.4
    He was caught by the guard (with a radar gun), doing 62 in a 30 mph zone. By law, over twice the speed limit and goodbye, its disqualification station. This is sickening speed and suggests that my mate is a reckless twit and has a serious problem obeying the rules of the road. Anyways, the cop lumbers up to him, gives the usual spiel, then lets him off with a fine of only €120 or so.
    The guards seriously need to get their heads together on this kind of ****e


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Boggle


    bogger77 wrote:
    Bet you've been watching your speed since? so he's done his job.
    It'd be nice if people were less paranoid about speed and more worried about looking outside the car.

    And anyone who preaches about being 5mph over the limit must never have driven a day in his life... anyone who does drive (well) knows that your car can drift a little higher and a little lower at times without necessarily trying to break any limits - take when your going down a bit of a hill for example.

    How long is it going to take for someone to kill someone because they were more worried about watching their speedo while passing the school than watching for kids. Especially now that they'll be squinting at the small secondary print on their speedo dials.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,660 ✭✭✭Blitzkrieger


    JohnCleary wrote:

    Now I know I can appeal or whatever because I was given no print out, etc. blah blah spam rant....

    No you can't. If you wanted to appeal you shouldn't have paid the fine. I wouldn't say a word to the insurance company until the points actually appear on the license.

    I'm not sure if unkel is right about that loophole being closed - I'd go out and get legal advice if I was caught (again).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    ........I was caught (again).
    Which he hopefully and most likely will.

    MrP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭midship


    Boggle wrote:
    It'd be nice if people were less paranoid about speed and more worried about looking outside the car.

    And anyone who preaches about being 5mph over the limit must never have driven a day in his life... anyone who does drive (well) knows that your car can drift a little higher and a little lower at times without necessarily trying to break any limits - take when your going down a bit of a hill for example.

    Good Point, i was cought doing 38 (in a 30) on a dual carrigeway and seen a picture, i got off it 6 months later in court

    I know i was over the limit but the road is three lanes wide with a feckin barrier up the center, on a bright dry day with no other car in sight! No way was i accepting 2 point and a fine for that, thank you very much! The whole speeding thing is a scam. They are given quotas and have to generate revenue so most of the time they pick nice easy streches of road that have been reduced to 30MPH purely to increse revenue go over it and bam your gone!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,209 ✭✭✭✭JohnCleary


    midship wrote:
    Good Point, i was cought doing 38 (in a 30) on a dual carrigeway and seen a picture, i got off it 6 months later in court

    I know i was over the limit but the road is three lanes wide with a feckin barrier up the center, on a bright dry day with no other car in sight! No way was i accepting 2 point and a fine for that, thank you very much! The whole speeding thing is a scam. They are given quotas and have to generate revenue so most of the time they pick nice easy streches of road that have been reduced to 30MPH purely to increse revenue go over it and bam your gone!

    Its so true its sickening!
    I was caught on the Ennis to Limerick road, just after Shannon.... Really good quality 4 lane road with barriers in between


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