Doing themselves no favours

Shinji

On one level, I have quite a bit of sympathy for the people of Palestine. They're clearly being oppressed and abused by the more powerful, dominant Israeli force in the area, backed by the American government - and as an Irishman, coming from a country that knows what it's like to be occupied against its will, I have some idea of how that feels.

On the other hand... The Evening Standard today carried, down the bottom of the front page, two simple pictures of a pair of 14 year old Israeli boys, who bunked off school to go hiking around the hills and ended up being stoned to death in a dingy cave by the Palestinians. Seeing their faces and reading about how they died - and about the fact that some scumbag Palestinian group had the GALL to try and justify this when they claimed responsibility - made my blood boil more than anything I've read in the news in a long time.

There is no justification. There can be no justification. And while I would have argued the cause of the Palestinians at length in the past, I find it very hard to give a damn what happens to them when they harbour among them vicious savages like these. This isn't an act of war, or of retaliation against any bloody thing; this is barbarism and murder directed against the most defenceless and innocent targets possible.

I am, frankly, sickened to the core.

Celt

Shinji, my israeli friend, made a joke about there soldiers doing something to rubber bullets that left weird scars after the wounds healed, he laughed at it and made it sound like it was funny. Id copy and paste but my i lost my icq history after i formatted.

[This message has been edited by WhiteLancer (edited 10-05-2001).]

Stephen

I lived in Israel for a few months a couple of years ago. Never before had I seen a situation where people are comfortable with men bringing their M-16's into the bank while they make (perfectly legit) withdrawals... coming from Ireland this is a bit shocking to see

The palestinians ARE being oppressed by the Israelis, but as Shinji said, they do themselves no favours. Anyone remember a few months back when they captured an israeli soldier, butchered him and threw him out a window? Newspaper photos showed a young arab - a teenager - holding his blood soaked hands out the window in a victorious stance. Sickening.

They are oppressed in more ways than the usual gun-toting Israeli settlers and army that we see on the news too. Any modern Israeli town has a full water supply, electricity, all mod cons etcetera. Travel down the road to a Palestinian town a few miles away and its like stepping into another decade. Crumbling buildings, **** all infrastructure, sewage in the streets, etcetera.

Basically, I think both sides are just as bad as each other. Remember when Yihtzak Rabin (i know that's spelt utterly wrong) - former Israeli prime minister - came close to achieving peace with the Palestinians a few years back, he was assassinated. Its just sickening. Its a vicious circle that will just continue for a long time to come.

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- Munch

[This message has been edited by Stephen (edited 10-05-2001).]

Magwitch

In all of this every neglects to mention the continued building of Isreali settlements on Palistinian land. This land has never been Isreali, as far back as the old testement it has been Palistine. The eviciton of an entire population has gone on almost unabaited during "peace" negioations.

500 dead Palistinians to about 30 Isrealis is a hell of a Ratio. The word terrorist is a creation of the Media, a bomb delivered by hand and one delived by a hi-tec helicopter has the same effect.

Are Palistinian lives some how "cheaper" than Isreali? Is two Isreali boys being stoned to death any more disressing than two Palistinian boys being shot dead or Isreali troops tossing a stun grenade into a playground of 4 year olds (read the news)?

Or is it that western Media found the Isreali boys more deserving of in depth coverage than dead Palistinian youth because they were more "western" or "whiter".

The coverage of this crises leaves alot to be desired and peoples opinions are best swayed AFTER they examine all the facts.

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Keep your powder dry and your pants moist

harVee

Interesting that Israel recieves more US government money than all other warzone areas on the planet put together.

Doesn't excuse suicide bombers walking into a group of kids at a bus stop strapped with semtex though.

Stephen

I think the Knesset in Israel is pretty much just one of Washington's puppets. The Americans can get the israelis to do or stop doing things by threatening to pull the billions of dollars they supply every year.

See how the Israelis apologised for the killing of a palestinian baby after the Americans condemned it?

Of course Palestinian lives are not "cheaper" than Israeli lives, nor any others. The Israelis are the dominant force in the area - they have hi-tech military equipment and a large, well trained army and what is probably the world's second best airforce after the USAF. It is easy for them to put down Palestinian opposition by brute force, with no regard for collateral damage.

However I still think that each side is as bad as the other. Both sides continue to commit savage atrocities, supposedly in the name of their respective causes.

Stoning two Israeli teenagers is not going to further anybody's cause.
Shelling a Palestinian refugee camp isn't either. I mean for fvck sake, a refugee camp?! Hardly a valid military target.

Victor

Shinji, I think this is the depth on animosity that currently exists between the Israelis and Palestinians.

A 4 month old baby was killed by Israeli tank fire yesterday (see picture in today's (Wednesday) Irish Times). In that context 14 year olds would be seen as 'men' as is the normal in many Muslim societies.

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Changing call sign to SIERRA PAPA OSCAR OSCAR FOXTROT.

[This message has been edited by Victor (edited 12-05-2001).]

Winning Hand

When i first saw that scene on the TV i was filled with rage, and it still does, but its a known thought that fighting brings out the worst in man.

I hate the Israeli army. To me the Israelies are those punk-kids from your childhood who were half your size but ****ed with you all the time but you couldnt do anything cos they had brothers who was as big as a building. Their attack on the Syrian radar station was despicable, If sadamn tried that with anyone its nukes all the way

They have free reign of the middle east, although it seems like the yanks are beginning to ever so slightly withdraw support (might have something to do with the fact that the "accidental" strafing of a US boat 30 years ago may not have been accidental)

TwoShedsJackson

If you want to try and make some headway on understanding why the situation in Israel is the way it is today, read 'Murder In The Name Of God' by Michael Friedman and Ina Karpin (ISBN 1862073171).

It describes the plot to assassinate Yitzhak Rabin, and how the right in Israel vilified him for over two years while he was Prime Minister until Yigal Amir decided he was justified in killing him, and did so.

A fascinating book.

Shinji

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not taking a pro-Israeli stance by any measure or means. I do, however, see a definite difference between a child being killed by shrapnel from shelling - tragic, terrible, but not a directed act of violence! - and two kids being stoned to death in a cave - a directed, vicious, cold-blooded murder. And a f*cking nasty way to die.

(Makes you wonder if the Palestinians really are capable of running their own country. Most other arab nations with extremists in positions of power seem to have f*cked it up royally, I fail to see how Palestine would do any better...)

Sigh. I say we nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

WhiteWashMan

rob, on your first point, to be honest, i see no way in which you can justify knowing how they feel. you dont come from a country with the same background. its totally different. totally. ireland is not a war zone. hasnt been for a couple of hundred years, and if you can remember back that far, you are lot older than your cue little face belies....
however, i do see your point. it ranks up there with the public showing of an excecuton of an israeli soldier a few months ago. the difference between killed in a hostile situation such as a gunfight, and any sort of excexution, be it 'officail' or gangland stylee is huge.
i know nothing of the back ground, or even of the curent political climate of either nations, all i see is the brutal murder of innocent people. occasionally the israeli forces shoot a few people whilst being stoned.
six of one, half a dozen of the other.
i personally think it wont be long before there really is open war on the streets...

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shinji:
child being killed by shrapnel from shelling - tragic, terrible, but not a directed act of violence! - and two kids being stoned to death in a cave - a directed, vicious, cold-blooded murder. And a f*cking nasty way to die.
</font>

I'm afraid I have to beg to differ.Firing into an area densely populated by refugees with artillery counts as a direct act of violence to me.I know that fire comes from these areas, but its just typical of Israeli over-reaction and over retaliation. Firing into areas with artillery(which is not exactly pinpoint) when you know there are civvies and children in there is more than reckless. Israel is no stranger to this kind of thing, and like many conflicts involving ethnicity this conflict has its fair share of sickening moments.Dead kids both sides.

When Ariel Sharon was defence minister in the seventies in Israel he allowed his christian militias to go into refugee camps (at Sabra and Chatila) and murder over two thousand people,mainly women and kids.The Israelis then helped cover it up(not easy,and as you would expect not entirely effective).Is this les significant than 2 israelis teenagers who wandered into unsafe territory(and less face it,they should have known better)? This is old news.Appalling acts of savagery in Israel/Palestine? I don't see why we should surprised.Or change our opinions because of two more savage murders.The past is littered with them! Why pay any more heed to recent ones.

I have very, very little sympathy for Israel as a nation.It has taken liberties with human rights and international justice that some other demonised countries could never have gotten away with. I'm sure if Iraq killed two thousand jews the US would just let them sweep it under the carper too,eh?

Basically:As for the Palestinians doing themselves no favours,why should they care?! What has the West ever done for them? Did it stop Israel illegally invading and annexing their land? Did we secure compensation for their propety stolen by Israelis? Were the UN's bullsh*t resolutions on Israeli aggression and abuses(which were negated by mostly the US but not without collaboration from others) enough to merit the Palestinians as considering us as anything other than bystanders who stood by and watched as someone was raped or beaten? Because for a long time that has been the attitude of the West.While many stood by and shook their heads and tut-tutted at Israels actions against the Palestinians no-one did anything concrete against them.

If I was a Palestinian,would I give a flying f*ck if people in the west thought I was an animal or a savage? No I wouldn't.For the simple reason that what difference would it make?! Will we stop rattling our diplomatic sabres and posturing? Oh god forbid.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Makes you wonder if the Palestinians really are capable of running their own country. Most other arab nations with extremists in positions of power seem to have f*cked it up royally, I fail to see how Palestine would do any better..</font>

Thats not for us to worry about.The Palestinians are entitled to a homeland,almost any decent person or nation agrees with this,and this should occur. What happens afterwards is not really the point here, a people is entitled to its right to self-government (and a homeland if it was expelled from its original one in such a unfair manner).


[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 10-05-2001).]

Magwitch

Interesting point about the perception of Manhood in the middle east Victor.

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Keep your powder dry and your pants moist

Shinji

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The Palestinians are entitled to a homeland,almost any decent person or nation agrees with this,and this should occur.</font>

Ignoring the Palestinian example (as I said earlier, I'm not actually pro-Israeli, but I really do feel that one side is every bit as bad as the other), I don't actually agree with this statement. Call me a mad right-wing nut, but we're NOT all created equal, all cultures are NOT equally valid, and on this reasoning, not all peoples are capable of self-government.

You can give me bleeding heart bullsh|t all you like, but nothing will convince me that countries like Afghanistan and Iran have the right to exist in their current state... Funny how it always seems to be the Muslims who screw it all up, eh?

Magwitch

?????????????????????????

1. Iran has a reformist government about to get a scond term, read the news. Afghanistan has a recognised legitimate government in the northern Peshwar valley, which is not the Taliban.

2. Shinji, so you expect all other cultures to be judged as capable of running their because they have "western" administrations? The Palistinians are very capable of running their own business, if given half a chance. Isreali bombardment, encrouching settlements , clamp downs and blatent provovation do not help. It is in Isreals interest to keep the Palistinians off kilter.

3. By what mile stone can one judge one culture against another? Our present culture is imported, not of our own making. So is Ireland Inferior to America or England?

No people should be expected to live under the yoke of military oppression or the political whim of another countries xenophobic mind set (read up on the core beliefs of Zionism). The truth is the Palistians are awaiting the inevitable, complete removal of their historic land and dispersal. I know if I were in their shows I would go nuts too.

Hezzbollah and Hamas are as much a necessity to the existence and stability of Isreal as the IRA are a necessity for Unionist politics in this country to maintian a status quo, concocted of a brew of victem culture, right wing politics and fanaticism. Convience people they are the victems and they let you do what you want in their name. a la Mr. Hitler and co.

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Keep your powder dry and your pants moist

Von

Upset by dead kiddies on telly? Then go here
http://www.tragibutes.co.uk/

ButcherOfNog

the real questions to be asked should be:
1. Are Palestinian authorities investigating this, and how much effort are they putting into catching the killers.
2. What will happen to the killers when they are caught.

Magwitch

3. How much are the Isreali authorities doing to investigate the shooting by professional soldiers of civilians?

4. Will the Isreali soldiers who through a stun grenade into a kinder garden injuring a number of 4 year olds in a quite area be prosecuted or awarded a medal?

bugler

Shinji thats a racist and Islamaphobic view.Would you advocate a caste system too? Maybe you can tell us which races are capable of ruling themselves,just so we can clear it up.The fact that you initially claimed sympathy for the Palestinians on the grounds that Ireland has had similar experience now makes me laugh.How long were we denied the right to rule ourselves?! We were viewed as inferior savages too.Are we still inferior?I mean if civilised western people said it was so it must have been true.So did we change?

Muslims always f*ck it up? Well when exactly? I think you'll find incompetence isn't endemic to one religion or culture.Arrogance seems to be prevalent in some however.

And Nog,I'd be more worried about whether Israel will stop flouting international rules on warfare and human rights,their not just there for reference, even if as Shinji would seem to hold,the victims aren't quite entitled to protection or their rights like 'real' humans.

Clintons Cat

with the current isreali administration hellbent on destroying the symbols of palestinian autonomous authority established during the rabin/arafat peace process i can see no solution to the current conflict.
Call me a sentimentalist but the answer to 50 years of conflict is not another 50 years of conflict.
A sad situation,with time maybe another israeli leader will arise with the courage to follow the lead of Rabin.

Clintons Cat

as i understand it since Britain harbours amongst its population child killers like Mary Bell,Thompson and Venables, and Brady and Hindley then britain clearly cannot be trusted to run its own affairs.
Patently ridiculous xenophobic nonsense.
which group was claiming responsibility btw?

Shinji

Tsk, basic fallacy bugler...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I mean if civilised western people said it was so it must have been true.</font>

I didn't speak on behalf of "civilised" western people (quite a lot of whom are basically uncivilised anyway), I spoke on behalf of myself alone.

Damn, you were doing so well up until then too.

(Just to throw oil on the fire, yes, in some ways I do advocate a caste system, in so much as I believe that all people are most certainly not equal, and all cultures are most certainly not equal...)

Celt

Shinji you have made it clear you support the israeli's despite your frequent protestations to the contrary. Oh and can anyone say 2 RIC men shot dead 90 years ago?

Shinji

No, WhiteLancer. It's far too complex a situation to say "you support the Israelis", it's not like supporting a bloody football team. I've made it eminently clear that I don't believe that either side is right; indeed, the main thrust of my argument is that I used to be a staunch believer in the rights of the Palestinian people, but that this belief has been almost totally eroded by actions such as this one by the Palestinians and happenings in other Islam-dominated countries in the area of late.

Of course, it's much EASIER for you to simply break it down into black and white and say "you support such and such!", but if you can't make the effort to comprehend the argument, please just stay out of it.

Celt

You say they dont deserve a government and that they arent fit to lead, so you do indeed seem to be "Leaning" (hope that makes you really, really happy shinji) towards the israelis.. And shinji people have always been breaking things down into black & white, its human nature.

[This message has been edited by WhiteLancer (edited 12-05-2001).]

[fist]Pi$$er

Hmm, coz u c I am one of those people that sees things in Black & White so when someone from either Nation tells me they could never get along with a person from the other nation I cannot bring myself to have any kind of relationship with them for there racism. I wouldnt hate them, I just couldn't bring myself to be associated or have a friendship with someone who thinks like that.

Victor

I think that we should all agree that the people of the world can be really nasty to each other. There are very few innocents out there.

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Changing call sign to SIERRA PAPA OSCAR OSCAR FOXTROT.

Belisarius

I get your meaning , but I dont think that sort of attitude reflects the ideology of right and wrong to which we all supposedly subscribe , Id go so far as to say they are no innocents in any real shape or form . but were all just guaging varying levels of Deceit and animosity ,When comparing Isreal to to Palestine I doubt any person with a mind of thier own would doubt that in such a case Palestine are the lesser of 2 evils , right?

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Shrewgar!

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shinji:
I didn't speak on behalf of "civilised" western people (quite a lot of whom are basically uncivilised anyway)</font>

I presume you were speaking as a civilised western person,seen as you are from a race capable of(and entitled to) self-determination.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Damn, you were doing so well up until then too.
</font>

Which is probably why you chose to reply to only some of my points raised.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Just to throw oil on the fire, yes, in some ways I do advocate a caste system, in so much as I believe that all people are most certainly not equal, and all cultures are most certainly not equal</font>

A caste system is unfair,a permanent, life long tag you are handed at birth and can never lose.This is ok? Some people should be discriminated against because of their family's socio-economic situation, or 'tags'?
Also, perhaps you can enlighten us as to which ways different people are not equal.
Are Arabs intellectually inferior to Caucasians? Can their little minds not handle power?

I tell you,the ideal situation would see us superior peoples colonising these savages' countries again! The case has been proved in Zimbabwe, those wild monkeys attacking those farmers,they are not fit to run their own country.The Belgians (or whatever white boys it was,any would do)should never have left.Things were so much more civilised when they were in charge...


[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 14-05-2001).]

bugler

Again I really have to reiterate that the title of this thread is misleading. The Palestinians have not been helped with direct action by anyone from the west,and have never been on the receiving end of 'favours'.I don't see why they should worry about losing support here,considering it has never been translated into anything very useful.

Can things get worse for them?

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

While I respect your opinion Rob, and admire the moral high-ground you take, I'm with bugler on this one.

I don't believe there is any way to justify the violent acts comitted by either side, but as bugler points out- what has the West ever done for the Palestinians? Historically, the Anglo-French treaty was scuppered by the Balfour declaration just as the current peace process has been scuppered by the Likud party. There is an inherent quality of violence in the Israeli nation- after all, it was born out of the hate and suffering of thousands of years of persecution- I would be greatly surprised if some of that hatred didn't live on in future generations.

But the fact remains that the peaceful approach has been denied to the Palestinians- every time they try to treat for their own land, they run into a brick wall. Having run out of sensible nonviolent options, it's understandable that violent groups have arisen. I'm not condoning the actions of these groups, the pain and suffering that they cause, but I firmly believe that it is Israel's OWN militant stance that has precipitated the creation of such groups.

Shelling refugee camps, illegally occupying territory, violating trade agreements in the Middle East are only the tip of the iceberg. It's bitterly ironic that the number of torture, interrogation and interrment camps that exist in Israel echo the severity of Auschwitz when viewed on television at least. You can see the bloodstains on the wall, dried vomit in the corners of the cells, bullet-holes riddling the confinement cell, and one can only imagine what has transpired there.

Small violent groups are one thing- but an established "friendly" government comitting the same atrocities in the name of justice? I'm sorry, but that's worse- any way you slice it. A government that needs to satisfy the Israeli people's sense of justice by bombing innocent people is just sick- and they were ELECTED. Elected officials of a recognized government have a moral duty to do the right and decent thing- that is the price with democracy of the election. No one elected Hamas- they are merely an organization that arose out of the need for freedom by any means.

Freedom by any means...now surely that's the philosophy of most patriots? All nations that have fought for independence from colonial powers had to resort to some level of violence. Ireland itself is a perfect example- a so-called "terrorist" organization wrested the British to their knees, and forced independence. The Vietnamese had to fight the French at Dien Bien Phu...violence in the cause of freedom isn't any less wrong- but it serves the purpose of self-determination. To that extent, even if it cannot be tolerated/condoned, it as at least understandable- I can sympathasize with the Palestinians' situation.

In any case- with the Israeli government's current intolerant mood- I don't see a resolution to this problem in my lifetime

Which is a damn shame- culturally speaking the Palestinians are one of the richest on the planet- and that culture is in sharp decline as Palestinian kids put down their schoolbooks and "ud's" and take up arms for a cause.

I only hope the West realizes the error of its ways soon, and makes an effort to reverse the troubled situation it created fifty years ago.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Alea Jacta Est=

Clintons Cat

Rabin,Martin Luther King,Ghandi,anyone see the link?

Seems like some political philosophies are just to radical.

Talk of Reconcilliation and harmony might just get you killed.

DadaKopf

Shinji: to your original post...

Of course there's no justification and of course both sides are guilty of atrocities. Of course the Israelis are the ones with the upper hand since they're the ones with the money, the backing, the international news (which they and associates largely buy) behind them. Sympathies SHOULD go to the Palestinians, I've said this for years.

Of course, the war (and I DO think it's a war) has reached a stage of critical mass where it's completely out of control. Pent-up, and probably genuine, anger on both sides has arrived at a point and an intensity that both sides feel equally justified.

As in Northern Ireland, the key is for Israel as a friend of the West to grant Palestinians the basic human rights that humans deserve. The British denial of these rights let to the Troubles and once they genuinely introduced a little equality into the society, the violence became unjustified. That's not to say it'll go away. As long as Israel keeps fighting stones with bullets and bulldozing people's houses for Jewish settlements, I don't believe they should cutty any favour with the International community.

Yes that incident in the cave was horrendous but you also have to understand that it's a VERY different culture to ours, with traditions and tendancies, personalities and mindsets that we as westerners can't understand.

I find it very regrettable that the West only be turned onto this long lived atrocity NOW. It's been going on since the 1950s.

DadaKopf

Eh, what I kinda meant was that just because they do certain, barbaric, things, that's us viewing through a western lens. My course in college called the stance 'cultural essentialism' and I'm of the opinion that apart from socio-economics, historiography and power-politics, there is a central element of indigenous culture at play.

Not only is there still a tradition of local princes/sultans/kings/oil barons/presidents/PLO Leaders (which goes back thousands of years) but there's also a history of extreme zealotry and 'barbaric' acts.

Most of us really haven't a clue what's really going on nor do we understand how it feels to actually live in that area of the world. Imagine living in a sh*thole where your job prosepcts are tiny, your income is tiny if at all existent, the chance of being killed, injured or having your hous bulldozed is deemed extremely likely and to top it off, you can't understand why you're the object of inhuman treatment.

Peace should be sought but people should be careful to judge the war, it's only through western eyes.