What do we do if the British leave?

jbkenn

What happens when the Brits pull out?

Have any of the Sinn Feiners though this through?

Do we sack all the Police, or just the ones we don't like?, because, there will not be enough Baseball bats in the world to go around.

Where do we get the troops to replace the British Army ?, because, like it or not, a military presence will still be required.

What will be used to replace the British Government €10 billion annual subsidy.

How will our Northern cousins take to the following.

Housing? build your own, we havent got the money
Housing Repairs? Dont break it and it wont need fixing

Bring £32 with you when you need to visit your local A&E
Dental treatment ? whats that?

Back to School for 3 kids £900 per year.
And we change the books every year in case you think you can pass them on.

Roads? Potholes? get used to them.
The price of your car just went up by £4,100 V.R.T

V.A.T. just went up 3.5%
Nothing to smuggle

Welcome to a United Ireland
jbkenn

mike65

Here's a more cheerful prognosis

Bring nothing with you when you need to visit your local A&E
Dental treatment ? its great and cheap

Back to School for 3 kids nearly nothing
And we don't change the books every year in case you can pass them on.

Roads? we'll build them for you
The price of your car just went down by €6,100 V.R.T

V.A.T. just went down 3.5%
Nothing to smuggle

Welcome to a United Ireland

One run by Northerners!

Mike.

Zombrex

3 things

1 - No one "pulls out". The "brits" don't go anywhere. 1.2 million Unionist are the brits and they live there. What i assume you mean is what happens if government control is handed to the Irish Republic and N.I. becomes part of the Republic. We (us, them) are still left with all the british people now living in our country who don't recongise our government. Essentally we (the republic) become the occuping force. Result -> Volience for another 30 -50 years

2 - Unification with East Germany crippled the economy and now East German is a getting close to a waste land with whole towns abondoned due to lack of employment. Now this won't happen to N.I. but it still would be bad

3 - Do Irish people even still care about unification. 95% voted to give up the consitutional claim to the provence.

I would say unification as we know it now will never happen. We will move closer to a place where an independent N.I is a real possibility within the frame work of a closer European Union. N.I will govern itself, with the protection of an E.U army rather than needing either the Irish or British army acting as the N.I military.

Ah just an idea, I have had some wine

Redleslie2

jbkenn wrote:

What happens when the Brits pull out?

Well for a start, no respectable Irish bicycle loving man will ever have to endure harrassment by the British army's hated "mickey inspector" unit ever again.

Victor

jbkenn wrote:

What happens when the Brits pull out?

Remember pulling out doesn't always work. Use safer sex practices.

FTA69

I hear the prospect of Unionist violence being raised, violence to what end exactly? Re-unification with the UK? The British public would not allow that to happen at all.

An independent Six Counties? Consisting of what? North Down and North Antrim? That is also unlikely, the fact is that after Irish unification occurs there can be no going back for any side concerned and thus the prospect of violence becomes an impossibility. Of course there will be initial civil trouble but it cannot be kept up for reasons outlined above.

The other fact that people have to remember, is that Ireland is one coutry and that unification is not an abnormality, partition is. Economic unification is not necessarily a bad thing, many point to British monies wasted on the place but considering it makes up 3% of the UK they have not made a decent or concerted effort to make the area viable. After an intitial period of Irish economic, national and political unification things will eventually function properly. It is a step that must be taken for the good of this island.

daveirl

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true

( a ) Most of the Roman Catholics I know in the north of Ireland do not want a united Ireland. They prefer to be part of the United Kingdom, and would not trust Sinn Fein in a million years.

( B ) In the south, we do not want to spend millions of our taxes on propping up the North.

( C ) The northern Unionists do not want , by definition , to be part of a " united Ireland ". Many know they would be forced out very quickly. They look at what happened south of the border last time the Brits left.

FTA69

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

...And everyone in this board seems to hold the delusion that a united Ireland is opposed by most in the 26 County state, many opinion polls have stated a support for unity. Also, the three biggest parties in Ireland (Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael) have a united Ireland as a goal. These are hazy examples I realise, however, I'm all in favour of a referendum involving the nation acting as a unit.

Germany also has a thriving economy and many advances have been made, life is still better for most than it was under the iron curtain and progress continuous. It will not be overnight success, neither would Ireland and neither would anything else.

FTA69

true wrote:

( a ) Most of the Roman Catholics I know in the north of Ireland do not want a united Ireland. They prefer to be part of the United Kingdom, and would not trust Sinn Fein in a million years.

( B ) In the south, we do not want to spend millions of our taxes on propping up the North.

( C ) The northern Unionists do not want , by definition , to be part of a " united Ireland ". Many know they would be forced out very quickly. They look at what happened south of the border last time the Brits left.

(A) Most of these "Roman Catholics" vote for Sinn Féin so where does that leave your statement?

(B) I outlined the economic situation earlier.

(C) The Unionists are a national minority. However, since its inception Sinn Féin has stated that co-operation between Unionists and Nationalists nationwide is a necessity for a successful Ireland considering the Unionists make up 20% of the population. The "under siege" mentality is just that, an innacurate mentality.

segadreamcast

"What will be used to replace the British Government €10 billion annual subsidy."

That figure surely isn't correct - can someone verify?

monument

The British were at one point in the mid-70's looking at a withdrawal…

“It was suggested - with reference to a paper published by John Simpson of Queens University in Belfast - that the loss of financial support from Britain “would not be as catastrophic for the Northern economy'‘ as was usually thought because some of the monies payable by the British exchequer would be taken over by the EEC.”

But there were problems, of course...

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqid=1282-qqqx=1.asp

true

(A) Most of these "Roman Catholics" vote for Sinn Féin so where does that leave your statement?

All of the Roman Catholics I know who do not want to be part of a united Ireland vote for a mixture of parties other than Sinn Fein. They do NOT vote for Sinn Fein as you say. More than a few Catholics do not vote for Sinn Fein, you know.



(B) I outlined the economic situation earlier.

I still know that most economists south of the border would shudder at the thought of budgeting for an all Ireland state, never mind the other problems.
Do you really think the EC will give Northern Ireland a £ 10 billion annual subsidy ? How many eastern European nations have joined the E C recently, or are joining in the near future ? As these new entrants to the E.C. are much poorer than N. Ireland, I fear the days of looking to Brussels for money is nearly over.



(C) The Unionists are a national minority. However, since its inception Sinn Féin has stated that co-operation between Unionists and Nationalists nationwide is a necessity for a successful Ireland considering the Unionists make up 20% of the population. The "under siege" mentality is just that, an innacurate mentality.

You have not denied the unionists would not want to be forced in to this arrangement and that they know they would be forced out quickly. Their under seige mentality is understandable given the actions of Sinn Fein / IRA over the years, and given what happened south of the border when the Brits left.

coolhandluke

While in theory it all sounds wonderfull,in principal we'd be getting the cheque book out bigtime.
1 in every 3 jobs in the north is paid for in some form by the british taxpayer that's 33% of the total labour force.
Add in the pensioners and all the people on the dole,and that's some monkey to have on your back.

MrPudding

I am a Catholic from NI. I don't know any catholics that vote Sinn Fein. Most catholics I know shudder at the thought of a United Ireland. I know there is the romantic aspect of it. "Sure wouldn't it be great!" and all that. Then the crushing reality comes in. Life in the north is pretty cushy.

Here are a few more points that Jbken missed:

1. Kids see doctors free. Always. Until they are 16, or 18 if still in full time eduction.
2. Free perscriptions for kids. Same as above
3. Dentist is not free if you have a job but there is a maximun a dentist can charge, the rest is picked up by the NHS.
4. Stuff is cheaper.
5. Laws are not made/not made on the basis of whether or not they will annoy the Church.
6. You get ITV & channel 4 on SKY.

I'm sure there are more but that is all I have off the top of my head.

Don't get me wrong, life in the south has it advantages too. I would not have moved here otherwise. But seriously when you look at the list of perks that will disappear or get more expensive who in their right mind (still in NI) would go for it?

MrP

Hobbes

Victor wrote:

Remember pulling out doesn't always work. Use safer sex practices.

I don't think you would have to worry as Ulster always says NO.

MrPudding

coolhandluke wrote:

While in theory it all sounds wonderfull,in principal we'd be getting the cheque book out bigtime.
1 in every 3 jobs in the north is paid for in some form by the british taxpayer that's 33% of the total labour force.
Add in the pensioners and all the people on the dole,and that's some monkey to have on your back.

This is it in a nutshell. People in the south don't want it cos it is a 10 billion (that is GBP by the way) per year black hole.

Northies don't want it cos they will take a fairly heavy drop in their standard of living.

If the best from both were taken it might be easier to swallow but I can't see that happening.

MrP

MrPudding

Hobbes wrote:

I don't think you would have to worry as Ulster always says NO.

There will be no pulling out as sex is only for procreation. Whilst reading this line you should imagine it being shouted by a purple faced and apoplectic with rage Ian Paisley.

MrP

invincibleirish

Also, the three biggest parties in Ireland (Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael) have a united Ireland as a goal.

on this point,that may be so in ideological terms, but in reality FF since the days of jack lynch have realised the blindingly obvious that reunification in the mystical sense is not likely ditto FG,in reality in my own humble opinion i think must people in the republic do pay lip service to the notion of a united ireland but in reality range from not been overly bothered about the idea to being bitterly opposed to the notion when the possibiltiy of civil strife and economic chaos looms.


also in irish politics in the republic SF is the is the fourth or fifth largest party with around 10% of the electorate,that translates as 10% of the populace explicitly voting for a 32 county republic that does not seem like a mandate that the everyone in the republic wants a united ireland.

the most important thing for N.I. is peace and prosperity
for its people,its no surprise its now one of the poorest/most deprived areas in western Europe,hopefully politics up there will eventually lurch away from the sectarian and ideological extreme to politicians who actually want to secure prosperity for the region,we can all dream :rolleyes:

Redleslie2

MrPudding wrote:

a purple faced and apoplectic with rage Ian Paisley.

MrP

Is there any other kind of Ian Paisley?

Nuttzz

I think we are more likely to see a united states of europe before we see a united ireland. I wouldnt mind seeing a united ireland, but could we export all the bigots from both sides to greenland first....

MrPudding

Redleslie2 wrote:

Is there any other kind of Ian Paisley?

I have seen the softer side. Very cuddly.

MrP

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

Most British people I know would get rid of NI in a shot. They are not too pleased with their money being pumped into a state which cannot even agree to share power FFS. If it was more widely reported (the money the taxpayers pay to keep NI afloat), I think there would be widespread lobbying to dump NI.

true

If the British govt. dumped Northern Ireland on us in the morning we would all be in deep s**t.

true

If the British government offered us ( the Republic of Ireland ) Northern Ireland in the morning, we should run a mile. It will never happen in this century, but if it did imagine the cost ( 10 billion to the re. of Ireland economy per year ), social problems etc ( we would need the British army back in to Belfast to restore control ! ).

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Hagar

[NewspaperVendorVoice]
Generalizations.
Get yer generalizations.
Hear the world and his brother talk through his arse.
Read all about it.
[/NewspaperVendorVoice]

true

Well Hagar, thats what you get for going out selling newspapers on behalf of certain proscribed organisations !

simu

If the British got sick of holding NI up and we refused to take it on, they'd have to survive on their own. Maybe this would take their minds off pointless sectarian bickering...

arcadegame2004

true wrote:

( a ) Most of the Roman Catholics I know in the north of Ireland do not want a united Ireland. They prefer to be part of the United Kingdom, and would not trust Sinn Fein in a million years.

SF got most of the Catholic vote in NI since 2001 and seems likely to increasingly dominate that vote in NI. All polls of SF voters show 98-99% would vote "Yes" in a United Ireland referendum, including all polls since the GFA in 1998. Also, SF voters tend to be younger voters, and polls show that the younger the NI Catholic, the more in favour of a UI they are. Perhaps the Catholics you know are part of the minority of them that are opposed to it. Or maybe they think you'll see them as a fellow-traveller if they state their support for a UI.

( B ) In the south, we do not want to spend millions of our taxes on propping up the North.

It might be self-financing due to extra taxes from NI employees and businesses. Also, by the time a UI (if it happens) happens, Ireland will be even richer and better able to afford unification.

( C ) The northern Unionists do not want , by definition , to be part of a " united Ireland ". Many know they would be forced out very quickly. They look at what happened south of the border last time the Brits left.

[/QUOTE]

"Forced out"? Where do you get that idea from? They would meet the requirements from Irish Citizenship under the recently-passed Citizenship referendum. Do not be so silly!

Originally posted by DaveIrl
I agree 100%, that's the same reason people in the South wouldn't want it.

I disagree. All polls show a majority in favour, around 70%-80% in favour. I am not alone in viewing a "No" vote in such a poll as deeply unpatriotic. Partition is the ultimate cause of the problems up there. For us to choose to make it permanent, when given a chance to change it by mutual consent in NI and Southern Ireland, in a context where a majority in NI support a UI (which I agree doesn't yet pertain), would be to sow more seeds of conflict.

If the British government offered us ( the Republic of Ireland ) Northern Ireland in the morning, we should run a mile. It will never happen in this century, but if it did imagine the cost ( 10 billion to the re. of Ireland economy per year ), social problems etc ( we would need the British army back in to Belfast to restore control ! ).

It might be self-financing.

regi

"Forced out"? Where do you get that idea from? They would meet the requirements from Irish Citizenship under the recently-passed Citizenship referendum. Do not be so silly!

A great deal of northern protestants fear being ethnically cleansed, in pretty much the same way that the cork protestants were during the 1920s.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ionapaul

It's very easy for people in the Republic to support an United Ireland from afar, as these polls indicate. I am very certain if a pollster asked 1,000 Irish people 'Would you be in favour of free childcare for all, free nursing homes for all and free medical care for all' WITHOUT mentioning taxes, a majority would be in favour! Re-craft the unification poll to 'Are you in favour of an United Ireland, with a massively increased tax burden for all Irish workers' and show me the majority then. Don't even have to mention civil strife, Loyalist bombings down South, or the requirement of a larger army to police it all (quadruple the present size? more?).

Of course, some would have you believe that once Ireland is united, the 'confused children' of the Unionist camp will realise what some knew all along - they are actually Irish, not British, and can now join with the rest of us in building a wonderful, multicultural nation! No need for additional taxes as we'll all get along grand...

monument

simu wrote:

If the British got sick of holding NI up and we refused to take it on, they'd have to survive on their own. Maybe this would take their minds off pointless sectarian bickering...

No, they would just kill each other. A forced UI would end in lots of blood too. Any thing fast and radical is just a bad idea.

arcadegame2004

ionapaul wrote:

It's very easy for people in the Republic to support an United Ireland from afar, as these polls indicate. I am very certain if a pollster asked 1,000 Irish people 'Would you be in favour of free childcare for all, free nursing homes for all and free medical care for all' WITHOUT mentioning taxes, a majority would be in favour! Re-craft the unification poll to 'Are you in favour of an United Ireland, with a massively increased tax burden for all Irish workers' and show me the majority then. Don't even have to mention civil strife, Loyalist bombings down South, or the requirement of a larger army to police it all (quadruple the present size? more?).

Of course, some would have you believe that once Ireland is united, the 'confused children' of the Unionist camp will realise what some knew all along - they are actually Irish, not British, and can now join with the rest of us in building a wonderful, multicultural nation! No need for additional taxes as we'll all get along grand...

First of all, polls of the Protestant community in NI show that 71% of them would accept a UI IF a majority in NI voted for it. There would be little point in carrying out terrorist attacks in the South because there is no precedent since the 20th century for a former colonial power seeking to re-incorporate a former colony. There would be no British national interest in invading NI again. So the whole point of terrorism would be gone. There would be no union to preserve with Britain anymore. Also, Loyalism is far less well-armed than Republicans, so their capacity for an IRA style bombing campaign in the South would not be there.

I would actually point out to you that the preceden of the whites in South Africa having accepted the end of Aparteid is a good parallel with Unionists learning to accept a United Ireland, should a majority in NI vote for it. Another parallel would be the Baltic states, which were not partitioned into Russian and non-Russian-speaking areas, after they became independent.

Originally posted by DaveirlReally? Could you possibly link to those polls please because the only polls I've ever seen on the North on the question of a United Ireland have shown a sizeable minority of Catholics who don't want a United Ireland

If you read my quote carefully you will see that I was referring to 98%-99% of Sinn Fein voters. Most polls show at least 60% of NI Catholics would vote "Yes", and that about 20% are undecided, with 18% against.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

MrPudding

arcadegame2004 wrote:

First of all, polls of the Protestant community in NI show that 71% of them would accept a UI IF a majority in NI voted for it. There would be little point in carrying out terrorist attacks in the South because there is no precedent since the 20th century for a former colonial power seeking to re-incorporate a former colony. There would be no British national interest in invading NI again. So the whole point of terrorism would be gone. There would be no union to preserve with Britain anymore. Also, Loyalism is far less well-armed than Republicans, so their capacity for an IRA style bombing campaign in the South would not be there.

Are you seriour? There would be no point in terrorism? How about stopping a united Ireland? These people are fcuking lunatics! We are talkin about guys that lift people of the streets in Catholic areas and torture them in pubs. These people throw blastbombs through each others windows. Do you think they will simply say "hmmm, well given that there is no precedent for us to attempt to bring about re-partitioning of the state there is no point in killing a few people." Seriously what are you fcuking like?

But it's OK, they don't have many weapons. So that OK then. Did the PIRA come into being with all the weapon they would ever have? Do ya think that maybe they could sell a few more drugs and buy some more?

I don't know if NI could be self financing. The biggest employer by far is the government. Where do their wages come from? The tax taken from them is, obviously, considerably less than they are paid.

It doesn't really have any indigenous industry. Of course Ireland didn’t really either. Can we afford the time it will take for the Celtic Tiger to move to the North. Will it even be able to? Do you think the Unionists will take a United Ireland lying down? Christ, they think they are the most British people in the UK. They will not simple sit down and say “alright so, a pint of stout please. Ah be gora.” It might not really be a place that attracts a lot of inward investment.

I think Ionapaul makes a good point. Like I said earlier, the romantic notion is great right up to the point where reality comes crashing down.

Arcadegame, can you provide links to those polls. You may well be correct in the figures but it is unlikely the questions were asked like Ionapaul suggested.

MrP

gandalf

Mr. Pudding make your point but next time make it more politely or else I will take it as a personal insult and ban you.

Arcadegame if your going to quote statistics then please provide a link or reference, we have asked you to do this in the past and I am getting sick of it now. If you continue like this then you will be banned as well.

true

Regi wrote:

A great deal of northern protestants fear being ethnically cleansed, in pretty much the same way that the cork protestants were during the 1920s.

Exactly and well said. Sein Feiners refuse to consider this point. Northern protestants fears are well founded, based on lots of experiences over the years. Sein Feiners think all was rosy for all minorities ( eg the Limerick jews, who were all actually burnt out in the 1930s ) here in the 20th century. They also look at how many protestants were intimidated from border counties in the 1970s/ 1980s etc eg by shooting only sons on farms who happened to be part time RUC or UDR members etc, or who done building work on a police station or whatever. Northeners also look at how protestant numbers have shrunk in the 26 counties since the foundation of the "free state".

billy the squid

actually true, the limerick pogroms were the work of the redemptorists order and were more of a religious thing than a nationalist thing. a little different to the situation in cork during the 1920s.

oh and it happened long before the 1930s too. 1904 1905 would be closer to the correct date.

marco murphy

Ireland's economy is doing better than Britain's at the minute.

true

" Irelands economy is doing better than Britains at the minute ".

The two countries are on a completely different scale , and have completely different economies and commitments. Cars a a lot cheaper in the UK. A lot of thing has got very expensive in Ireland ( rip-off Ireland some call it ). Schools etc are cheaper up North for ALL sections of society. Most protestants south of the border have to pay through the nose for secondary schooling , for example. Heath services are thought to be better in the UK. Time will tell how Ireland economy develops in the future.

Ireland economy was not always "doing better ". However, I am proud that our Irish economy is now doing so well, and long may it continue to do do, but we must look at it realistically.
Irelands has really only boomed economically since the mid to late nineties. The UK has had a labour government in power since then, so what do you expect. We have have a centre to right wing ( FF-PD ) govt and have obviously done well as a result.

There are other factors : we have done well partly thanks to all the EC grants we got over the years, ( a large percentage of which was paid by Britain, as the EC second biggest contributer ), and partly due to massive inward investment from eg American multinationals, and partly due to very hard work by all of the people living here. Not everyone could envisage the people of the Falls or the Shankhill or the Bogside being so industrious or creative or hard working.

All of this is a distraction from the point made a few posts ago : the 1.1 or 1.2 million people in the North who do not want to join us in a united Ireland have their reasons, and we must respect that. The reasons are not just economic : they, along with a lot of people south of the border, know what Sinn Feins and other republicans real attitude is them is. They ( SF and their friends ) would have them made to feel like second class citizens at best, and at worst force / intimidate them out. I have heard it , I have read it and nobody can say the precedents have not been set.

FTA69

The crux of your statement there true, is that people were shot (regardless of religion) for being members of the RUC or UDR. Their religion was inconsequential and to prove this one only has to look at the number of Catholic members of the occupation forces who were killed by the IRA. Whether someone is a part time member of the police or UDR (both sectarian repressive organisations) is also irrelevant, the fact remains they were still members of an armed group and as such were legitimate targets.

To reiterate myself, the fact they were Protestants was coincidental.

As for future pogroms against Unionists, who would carry these out? The Republican Movement has absolutely no interest in doing so, every meeting I have been at where that question came up it was always said that we have no intention of persecuting Unionists the way Nationalists were. People have the good sense to realise that 20% of the population cannot nor will not be suppressed.

marco murphy

Yep,its pretty annoying to think people are biased to this ''sinn fein will force them out(ethnic cleansing)''.Them being unionists or protestants,

true

FTA69 wrote:

The crux of your statement there true, is that people were shot (regardless of religion) for being members of the RUC or UDR. Their religion was inconsequential and to prove this one only has to look at the number of Catholic members of the occupation forces who were killed by the IRA. Whether someone is a part time member of the police or UDR (both sectarian repressive organisations) is also irrelevant, the fact remains they were still members of an armed group and as such were legitimate targets.


Go to any of the border counties and you will see how the border has been rolled back 20 miles during the troubles. Many isolated farming families with part time or retired RUC or UDR members feel they were targeted. Especially the farms with only one son. The IRA knew what it was doing alright.

You say " you only have to look at the Catholic members of the occupation forces who were killed by the IRA ". Yes, but not the same numbers, and Catholic RUC were intimidated out of unsafe areas also.

The vast majority of the population do not see them as occupation forces, nor as sectarian repressive organisations. If they were , why did Catholics join them, know they could never safely return to friends and relations in Catholic areas again?

I could think of other sectarian repressive organisations which I will not mention.

Can you not forget phrases from the past like "occupation forces"? If you lived in a country that was really occupied, you would know all about it.

FTA69

I don't think the IRA took notice if there was one son or not, they simply sought out targets and took action against them. Very, very few Catholics joined either the RUC or British Army, the ones who did it usually did it for the money and were unsurprisingly boycotted by their family and friends. Many Catholic RUC men were also intimidated right back out of those organisations by the bigots they were supposed to be working with. The reason less Catholic RUC men were killed than Protestant members is because there was proportionally very few Catholics in that force.

It is also not a "vast majority" who do not consider the British Army and their cohorts occupiers, most nationalists were and are opposed to the police and British Army, and they form about 44% of the population of the Six Counties, besides most Irish people as a whole oppose them and that is the statistic that matters.

Regards occupation, I believe the entrance of a hostile foreign army into a country in which they are not welcome and the subsequent establishment of massive fortifications in places such as South Armagh and East Tyrone can fairly be described as an "occupation".

billy the squid

Regards occupation, I believe the entrance of a hostile foreign army into a country in which they are not welcome and the subsequent establishment of massive fortifications in places such as South Armagh and East Tyrone can fairly be described as an "occupation".

but the majority of the people in Northern Ireland would rather stay within the United Kingdom.

To be quite honest, the republic could not afford to be lumbered with Northern Ireland. I cannot see up pumping 10 billion every year into it. our own economy would collapse.

FTA69

What the majority of the Six County state says is irrelevant, before you say it billy this is not an undemocratic stance at all. The Six Counties form a minority of the Irish nation as a whole, and similar to the way we would not expect it to be reasonable for say, Cavan to decide to cecede from the country, neither is it reasonanle for a national minority to do the same.

Especially considering the Six County statelet was born out of an undemocratic redrawing of Ireland to accomodate a sectarian apartheid state.

billy the squid

What the majority of the Six County state says is irrelevant, before you say it billy this is not an undemocratic stance at all.

oh yes it is.

The Six Counties form a minority of the Irish nation as a whole,

as much as this might hurt you for me to say this, whether you like it or not, the territory of Northern Ireland is a part of what is known as the United Kingdom.

lets try this then

Quebec in canada has a large french speaking population who would like to become independent of Canada. whenever referenda have been held on the issue it was only Quebec who were allowed to decide on their fate, not the whole of Canada.

neither is it reasonanle for a national minority to do the same.

but the thing is the national minority is the catholic comunity, the country is the UK.

and if Cavan wants to Cecede from the country then the best of luck to them. Limerick did it in 1919.although there were those that didn't like it much

Especially considering the Six County statelet was born out of an undemocratic redrawing of Ireland to accomodate a sectarian apartheid state.

The territory of Northern Ireland was born out of the Treaty after the War of Independence, which the Dail Ratified. The war of independence is over, and we lost, get used to it. the only way that the north will ever be reunified with the south will be through a majority vote in the north.

MrPudding

FTA69 wrote:

It is also not a "vast majority" who do not consider the British Army and their cohorts occupiers, most nationalists were and are opposed to the police and British Army, and they form about 44% of the population of the Six Counties, besides most Irish people as a whole oppose them and that is the statistic that matters.

Can you provide a link to figures that show the majority of the 44% see the security forces as an occupying force? I know that noone in my family sees it as such. With the exception of 1 or 2 people noone that I grew up with did either. I know this is a small sample but I think you figures may very well be overstated.

You may think and hope that all the Catholics in the North feel the same way you do but that may not be the case. I personally have had nothing but possitive experience with the RUC. Of course there were some assholes in it but the vast majority seem to have been OK.

Have you lived in NI? Do you have any personal experience of the security forces in NI or do you only know of the Sinn Fein propaganda?

MrP[font=&quot][/font]