So should we eat animals?

mewso

Yeah quiet night in last night because I was visiting the home-base Anyway I was watching the late late (gasp not the late late) and they had a professor somebody on about animal rights.
He had many good points. Some not so good. Obviously we are at a stage now where we don't need to eat meat to survive. We now eat it because it is a part of our diet, we like it (some don't) and we have a mass production system that produces thousands of animals in factories now. This professor guy said that 2/3 of the world don't eat meat. Of course what he neglected to say was that thats because they can't get it. Anyway it does make me wonder is it time for humanity to consider not eating meat. It won't happen overnight but in time perhaps we might learn to do without.
I don't approach this arguement as a vegetarian because I like meat too but I'm one of the many who can easily switch off any thoughts of what kind of suffering the animal may have gone through. I come from a butcher's family and as I kid I used to watch my Uncle slaughter the cattle. When you're young you're just fascinated by these gruesome things. Anyway one school of thought on the telly last night, from a butcher, was that they have no consciousness and don't suffer. I remember the cow being brought in with sh!t dripping out of it's **** in fear, literally. The question is is this instinct?, even if it is doesn't it mean the animal is suffering anyway?
As a meat eater I wonder how many of us could slaughter the cow ourselves to eat the food. Also we categorise our animals too as this professor guy said. Dogs, cats are in one category - cows, pigs and turkey etc. in another. i.e. our next meal.
The woman in England who tried to protect her sheep from culling was a good example of how the sheep moved from one category into another and yet she may have had lamb for dinner last week.
Is it time to consider vegarianism for the future? Meat has long been the protein provider but nowadays combine soya beans and nuts and you have as vital a protein source as meat.
To qualify all this I dislike militant animal rights activists, right-on vegetarians who refuse to consider that the meat eating people have a valid point of view and people of that ilk. I just got to wondering about this meat eating business and whether humanity would be better off without it in the future.

Winning Hand

I love meat, would i slaughter a cow? Not likely but every living thing has a food cycle. We're just lucky to be at the top of it.

logic1

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As a meat eater I wonder how many of us could slaughter the cow ourselves to eat the food. </font>

Well I would and do. Not necessarily cowsbut I was brought up in a family with a strong tradition of hunting and shooting. From a very young age I went to shoots every weekend and later went stalking, deer mainly.

I have eaten venison, rabbit, all classes of game bird that I have shot myself. I think the question regarding one could eat something you have killed yourself comes down to whatever your used to and have been brought up with. Your own morals and standards are crafted through those of your parents and those that surrounded you from an early age. Like 30 years ago it was uncommon for a family not to have killed food themselves be it chickens or rabbits etc...

Also the point about dogs and cats falling into a different category is interesting and totally plausable. I believe these animals are seen as pets more than valid food stuff. For example most people wouldn't view chickens as good pets but on Big Brother the contestants fell in love with the chickens and treated them with the highest regard even after earlier talk of eating them

Again it's a case of familiarity. If you know a species to be widely regarded as pets or you have befriended a certain species you would be less likely to eat it.

But again if the situation grew desperate enough where would people draw the line? If ye remember the film "Alive" they turned to cannabilisim while stranded on a mountain range.

Morals and issues are all well and good in the safety and comfort of our own home but at crunch time if your life depended on it the line between what you would and wouldn't do becomes extremly blurred and easily crossed.

.logic.

][cEMAN**

Well obviously one of th reasons we don't eat cats or dogs is because we apply certain characteristics and human traits on them.... I mean you know that a cat or dog has a name but you don't drive by a field of cows and wonder what they're called do you?

They have been domesticated more than other animals have and in doing so we have taken them for the most part out of our food chain.

But as in most cases we WOULD eat them if the need arose. I mean how many of you would eat a rat and yet there are points in history where we've had to to survive.

I mean though in thinking that way where we then CAN eat cats and dogs just because they are meat (and cows etc.) then canabalism is pretty much the same thing - eating people for meat.....and yet it's wrong.

I think the point here is more that over time our morals change to adapt to our surroundings - just like say for example Rock n Roll was the music of the devil and these days a lot of kids wouldn't listen to it more for the reason that they just don't LIKE it.

We get into a stereotypical lifestyle though and can't seem to get out of it.

I'm not saying yes or no to this argument about eating meat or not ....so I should stop now....but i'm just saying are we just adapting again or is this what we SHOULD do?

RopeDrink

...I love the smell of Roast Dog in the morning...

azezil

yes we should eat animals!

after all didn't god say (i don't know the exact quote! ) that we are the masters of the earth and the animals are here to do with as we please... (ew that could be taken the worng way LOL )

---

"just because ur not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after u!"

neuro-praxis

Well, morally I don't think there is anything wrong with eating animals, because I don't believe that they have souls. I believe that they were put here for our consumption. I mean, if God doesn't want us to eat animals, why are they made out of food then?!

Seriously though, I believe in the old proverb that states that you should eat what is put before you.

However, I am thinking about vegetarianism (in my own home - for example, if a friend handed me a meal with meat, I wouln't refuse it) for health purposes. Meat is filthily poisoned nowadays with chemicals and such, not to mention all that saturated fat. The fat in soya is unsaturated, and therefore much better for the heart, whilst still providing protein. I reckon a balanced diet without meat might be better for all round general health and might even prolong it a little.

As for domestic animals, I liked my cat a lot, and it was a sad day that I put him in the oven.

I think people should eat what they want - even the bible (ah, my good ole guidebook ) says that. But I don't think that it is a moral question.

Although that is only my opinion. My best friend growing up was a vegetarian because she couldn't bear the thought of eating a living creature. I mean, fair enough. If you don't want to eat it, don't. But I don't think it is very fair to make people feel guilty about eating animals. They aren't rational beings.

And you know that if a cow got its way, it would eat you and your whole family, too.

DadaKopf

Don't have a cow, man.

Ah no, people should eat meat. To deny yourself meat is to deny mortality. That's what I think anyway.

azezil

i'd love to see some vegetarian's stranded in the middle of nowhere, unsure of what plants are edable, but with plenty of little bunnies runnin around .... lets see how long their morals last then!

---

"just because ur not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after u!"

yossarin

I'd have to agree with neuro on this one..anyway the way things are going (bse, foot in mouth, insert next one here) it's looking unhealthy to eat meat at all.

azezil

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by yossarin:
(bse, foot in mouth, insert next one here) it's looking unhealthy to eat meat at all. </font>

LMAO foot in mouth! hee hee hee, ya i can see how that could be a problem LMAO

---

"just because ur not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after u!"

Lucy_la_morte

I don't eat red meat because it makes me physically sick, haven't been able to stomach it since I was 11. I don't eat white meat because I don't like it, just doesn't taste as nice as most things.

I don't eat much anyway, and I seem to get on fine without meat.

---

Non.

Lucy la morte.

Chubby

Hunting and killing the animals you eat is one thing but the modern day process of obtaining meat seems wasteful. Next time you go shopping, just look at the meat shelves with the many packaged, rotten meat on display that no one in their right mind will buy. Unless they are recycled somehow they’re just going to be throw away. Many animals get slaughtered but I wonder how much is actually consumed. Best not to think too much about it because I love meat and I am no animal rights activist, I’ll leave the making the world a better place stuff to someone who cares.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Neuro-Praxis:
I mean, if God doesn't want us to eat animals, why are they made out of food then?!</font>

Shouldn't that be, if God didn't want us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of meat? I think John Cleese said that.


[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 06-05-2001).]

GreenHell

I live on a farm and once every so often we send 2 of our cattle off to be slaughtered and we get all the meat. Now if I was a moral person maybe I should go "oooooh look we've brought up this animal for the last 2.5 yrs and now we're eating it this can't be right can it???"

But I don't coz meats lovely jovely.

Also consider if there wasn't beef holdings in this country we're would we put all the cattle...... zoos?

neuro-praxis

Chub, I haven't a clue. I heard that some time ago from a friend.

Sure, up until a while ago, I thought John Cleese was dead!

---

Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Shinji

Of course we should eat animals, we're omnivores - this means we, er, eat animals. As well as vegetables and stuff.

And they taste really nice, too.

I would have no problem actually killing an animal to eat it, apart from not having the first clue where to start with my cleaver afterwards... Bah, just hack lumps off and get the barbie burning

pepperkin

I like meat, too. I eat it. But I am also norotiously and pathetically softhearted and cannot think of where that meat came from. Sad, and pitiful, me...

There are other reasons we eat cows and not cats. Carnivores don't taste as good. Most of the accepted game are herbivores. They taste better. Dogs were originally domesticated because they are carnivorous, and could help with hunting. Why were cats domesticated? To eat mice. (Or maybe because they're so snooty and humans couldn't handle an animal holding themselves so high above humans and had to break it downinto a pet...)
Therefore we've domesticated the carnivores to aid in the needs of the time and scarfed the grass eaters. What if we were naturally herbivore by nature? Who would scarf on us?

Blitzkrieger

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pepperkin:
Why were cats domesticated? To eat mice. </font>

I saw a documentary on this and apparantly cats weren't domesticated because they eat mice Farmers realised that they were useful to have around to keep the mice away from the grain, so they didn't kill and eat them. They were never really domesticated though. You can see why. If you want to domesticate a dog, you wallop it when it does something wrong and reward it when it does something right. With a cat you can't catch it to wallop it and it'll find it's own food.

My own view (robbed from Ed Byrne I think) is that animals have two fuctions in the modern world. To be delicious and to fit well.

I don't really care about animal rights cos I was always brought up with the view 'they're just animals, who cares'. Also I never seem to make the connection between the meat on my plate and a living, breathing creature.



[This message has been edited by Blitzkrieger (edited 07-05-2001).]

OSiriS

mmmmm ... cooked animal flesh ... *argle* (in best homer simpson tone)

---

Redesigned

TARE

1. It's been proven that pigs can be smarter than dogs so why don't the rspca stop the slaughter of pigs?

2. I went to a slaughterhouse with my uncle when i was a wie boy and i can tell you that many of the animals there knew what's going on.

A truckload of pigs arrived at the slaughterhouse all packed into together, no space to move around and it was a hot summers day.

Yet when the back doors of the truck where opened none of them wanted to get out, they had to be proded with electric stuners. They where all yelping and i remember one of the little pigs caught his hoof on the ramp and part of "it's" hoof was broken off as "it" was pushed on by the many other pigs.

That made my eyes water, why was that?

3. Fram animals have been brought up in fields and sheads for generatinos. They live and they eat.
If humans were brought up for generations on farms with no need to think or over come problems because something else provides ther basic needs, no mental stimulant what so ever for generations, how smart do you think these humans would be ?

could anyone answer all 3 questions plez, with special attension to question 3.

HendrixSEVEN

In partial answer to question 3
Human beings HAVE been brought up with no need to think or over come problems because something else provides ther basic needs.

Humans are dissolusioned in thinking that they are the only things that think and have feelings. Just because we can say that out loud doesn't mean it is true.

One of the reasons that so many diseases are rife amongst live stock is because of the inhumane conditions - feeding cows to cows etc.

Th answer to question 2 is - because you care. Not many people do.

Shinji

1) Because pigs are traditionally a food animal. They're bred for us to eat.

2) The treatment of animals before slaughter can be particularly bad, yes, and I don't agree with it. Just because we're going to eventually kill and eat an animal doesn't mean that its life has to be a misery.

3) Erm, impossible to answer since there's no precedent in psychology. Are you suggesting that pigs are stupid because we keep them on farms? What difference does this make to the food chain?

Lump

Well, I didnt Slaughter Cattle, but I worked in a butcher which involved boning cutting hacking etc. It wouldn't turn me off meat. I am however turned off fish when in my stupidity I used a meat cleaver to cut off a fish head, this Impact on the neck resulted in the Fishes eye bussting all over my coat. Which wasn't too plesant. *Hint* don't use a meat cleaver to remove fish head.

Any way, I love meat so Yes we should eat it.


John

DadaKopf

MMMMM - meat goooood!

Yo, chekkit. Meat tastes better when the ikkle animals run round the fields. At least there should be newer farming methods.

Anyway, I can't understand veggies attitudes to eating meat. Basically, they're feeling guilty for eating animals which is natural anyway. Humans are scavangers and as such will resort to eating anything hence omnivore. If it's for health reasons, fine - it's a learned decision but applying morals to doing what's natural, i dont diggit.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">1) Because pigs are traditionally a food animal. They're bred for us to eat.
</font>

Pigs may not be dumb but they're not exactly the most agile of animals. Piglets can run with their long legs but hogs etc are lame-ass swine and as such are perfect prey for hunters. I presume pigs were pretty easy to hunt in prehistory so I can only assume that has continued into the agricultural era also.

Another argument people use is that humans dont have to eat meat, dietetically. Fine and good, sincence can extract supplements from soy, but people still like the taste of a good juicy steak. People WANT to.

It's an issue around guilt. Get over it.

TARE

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">3) Erm, impossible to answer since there's no precedent in psychology. Are you suggesting that pigs are stupid because we keep them on farms? What difference does this make to the food chain? </font>

yes shinji, i am sujesting that pigs are "stupid" for that reason and it dose not make a difference to the food chain but this is not about the food chain, we are debating if we should still kill and eat animals even though there is no need, other than we like the taste.

Thinking back i don't think it's an issue of intellegence. I think it's more of a question of an animals abillity to form relationships with other animals.

When i think of a cow the last thing i would think of is two cows who are friends but than i know of a familly who keep a small black pig called Suee for a pet, I concerder that a relationship no matter how basic it is.

shinji, you said you would have no problem killing a cow in order to have meat but would you kill Suee for the same reason, where would you draw the line of what not to kill and what to kill for the teast of meat ?



[This message has been edited by TARE (edited 07-05-2001).]

K!LL!@N

It's all about survival.
We eat what we can get.
People say they won't eat this and they won't eat that, i do it myself, but if you need to eat something to survive you will.
I don't necessarily agree with the way animals are farmed for human consumption, but i don't have any problem with eating an animal.
Put it this way, if a hungry ( carnivorous )animal came across you in a forest, I don't think it's going to think twice about eating you, human, if it can get you. And i'm sure if animals had a steady supply of humans to consume they certainly wouldn't turn their noises up at it.

WhiteWashMan

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by musician:
Dogs, cats are in one category - cows, pigs and turkey etc. in another. i.e. our next meal. . </font>

as dr denis leary said.....
what are you?
im a otter...
and what do you do?
i swim on my back doing cute little human things with my hands.
youre free to go....

what are you?
im a cow.
get on the truck.
but im an animal.....?
youre a f*cking basball glove, now get on the truck.

we are not allowed to eat cute animals.
we are allowed to eat dumb animals

what catogory do canabils come into?

Shinji

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">shinji, you said you would have no problem killing a cow in order to have meat but would you kill Suee for the same reason, where would you draw the line of what not to kill and what to kill for the teast of meat ?</font>

I wouldn't kill "Suee", no, but not because of Suee - because of the family who consider the animal to be a pet. It's not the animal you're protecting there, it's the feelings of the humans involved.

Exactly the same pig, but not being kept as a domestic pet, is just bacon on legs.

p

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by azezil:
i'd love to see some vegetarian's stranded in the middle of nowhere, unsure of what plants are edable, but with plenty of little bunnies runnin around .... lets see how long their morals last then!
</font>

Well I don't eat meat because I don't have to. In that situation I'd say I would.

- Kevin

_CreeD_

Okay, hands up, I'm a Vegetarian...Have been since I was 12. I don't lecture people on it, and my attitude is that everything needs to consume something else to survive so meat eating isn't "evil" - Though often, as was pointed out, the methods used to 'produce' in mass quantities are (And while you buy meat, or eggs/whatever, from disreputable sources you are partly responsible for that).

I do think though that it'd be great to have a license system for eating meat. Once a year you had to go out and kill/gut/cook your favourite walking meatsicle. While I think it's acceptable for someone to eat meat, I have no respect for anyone who eats it but can't stand the reality of just what where it came from (and how it got there).


Anyway, why this rant? There have been some very strange points made here, reinforcing the view that most meat eaters are actually kinda guilty and will come up with any excuse for munching away on poor old betsy's carcass.


1. Souls/Consciousness/Bible - Gimme a break. "We human, we think we intelligent, we think you stupid, we write book that says we own you, we eat you with our gods blessing for all that you lack in the noggin' dept....We justified 'voz we smart......". Has me convinced, next time I run into a CS player I'll start thinking up recipes since I'm more intelligent than they are, and they don't believe in the church of Camanje-T-NonjePot so they have no souls....

2. Vegetarians would eat meat if they had no other choice - Correct, but the premise of this thread is that if we have a CHOICE not to then should we all stop.

3. We're Omnivores, that's natural/they're "food animals" - actually we started out on the old evolutionary ladder as Herbivores. Just those that happened to deviate and eat meat ended up stronger (And had more time away from picking less nutritious greeney stuff) and became dominant. And to justify something by sayin "well, it's been going on for ages" is a bit silly.

4. The Pet/Food question - You allow yourself to become attached to certain animals from social conditioning and habit. When you do you no longer class it as food. That simple. There's nothing special about dogs beyond the fact that they're stupid enough to like us.
Cats, now theres a subtle satanic plan in the works if ever there was one.


But, all this doesnt change one nasty little fact, as was kind've pointed out earlier. IF everyone on the planet stopped eating meat tomorrow it doesn't mean farm-animal's lives would suddenly be so much better. We only make space in 'our' world for the animals we need or emotionally attach to. Those farmers would need the land to grow simething else, or to sell for a better 'human' purpose. We'd end up killing them, or drastically controlling their population growth anyway.
Mankind isn't ready for this kind of step IMHO.

Kegser

Meat is good.

That is all.

DadaKopf

This whole issue is really interesting. I think a certain proportion of the argument is centred around the actual ways in which meat is farmed/produced/processed.

Taking religion and diet from the equation, I think people have problems with the kind of production-line attitude towards meat processing. My grandad was a victualler all his life, he slaughtered, cut and sold the meat himself. This is a profoundly different process to the sterile, de-humanised, de-bovinised, mechanistic process by which meat is produced today. It's not a matter of survival anymore, it's a matter or profit - legitimate live animals are treated as capital.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I do think though that it'd be great to have a license system for eating meat. Once a year you had to go out and kill/gut/cook your favourite walking meatsicle</font>

What a great idea. It's something I thought about a long time ago. Death is part of life, right, and the mechanisation of the meat industry (leave prostitution outta this ) has generated a whole society of meat eaters who only see a plastic container and a price tag. Then these people buy packaged meat, while the slaughtering process is merely a distant idea which really means very little.

There is meat overproduction, it'd make a lot more sense if people killed their own meat or everything went back to a victuallar-style market.

[This message has been edited by DadaKopf (edited 07-05-2001).]

Shinji

If you're lucky, you'll live in an area with a local butcher who produces his own meat from local cattle. One that my family has used for years could even tell you which farm a particular piece of meat came from.

I was in Quinnsworth in Dundalk when I was over at Easter, and I was shocked by how amazingly good the supermarket is compared to anything over here - it easily rivals the quality of even the best French/German supermarkets. One "innovation" is the fact that all farm produce has the name and address of the farmer that produced it written on it or encoded in a barcode that you can look up at the meat counter. Fantastic idea, and one that is bound to improve the cattle farming trade should it be implemented more widely.

DeVore

If we werent supposed to eat cows...


...why are they made out of food...

DeV.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Well...I suppose I'd better own up as well...I'm a vegetarian- been raised that way from childhood- my parents are vegetarian for religious/cultural reasons, as was I until I decided that health and environmental reasons made more sense to me.

I don't preach to other people about what they eat- it's their choice- whether or not a product is harmful in the long run shouldn't affect a thinking individual's choice to buy it. I also can't stand fellow vegetarians who preach to me about animal cruelty. I certainly don't...I mean how can I in all honesty?

I use glue, I used to play baseball, and I've got a full-sheepskin rug on my livingroom floor. It would be more than a little hypocritical of me to claim animal rights would be preserved if more people went vegetarian. Besides- I can't comment on how easy or difficult it is- I've been raised a vegetarian- and as such am not giving up anything by remaining so.

I do however, hold the opinion that meat-eating culture is unhealthy and people should cop on. Not by my telling them (that'd just be rude of me) but by educating themselves on the health risks of what they eat. Most people don't give a second thought to what they eat except with regards to taste.

The notion that eating meat is justified because they are "God's creations" to do with as we see fit is laughable, it really is. It's in the same category of religious concepts that condemns the followers of so-called "pagan" religions to eternal damnation. The same goes for all those who are not part of "God's people", ie, non-Christians.

Animals are living, breathing organisms- animal life is something to be studied and admired- and not destroyed unless absolutely necessary. The argument that a carnivoire in the wild wouldn't give a second thought to gobbling you up doesn't hold much water. As a wild animal- it holds no power of reason- it eats you because it cannot reason out an alternative- something humans are perfectly capable of doing. Our ability to make concious choices should seperate ourselves from lesser-evolved beings.

But that's just my opinion at the end of the day- people are free to do as they wish- as long as society educates itself on the implications of a practise which it finds acceptable- I have no problems with that practise. It's a tad apathetic I know- but I would rather err on the side of tolerance than take an unaccomodating view.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=E Pluribus Unum=

Hobbes

Eat them before they eat us.

btw, it's been proved that crops can feel pain. So should we stop eating bread?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
he Straight Dope On Food, Health, & Exercise:

Q: I've heard that cardiovascular exercise can prolong life. Is
this true?
A: Your heart is only good for so many beats, and that's it.
Everything wears out eventually. Speeding up your heart will not
make you live longer; that's like saying you can extend the life
of your car by driving it faster. Want to live longer? Take a nap.

Q: Should I cut down on meat and eat more fruits and vegetables?
A: You must grasp logistical efficiencies. What does a cow eat? Hay
and corn. And what are these? Vegetables. So a steak is nothing more
than an efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to your system.
Need grain? Eat chicken. Beef is also a good source of field grass
(green leafy vegetable). And a pork chop can give you 100% of your
recommended daily allowance of vegetable slop.

Q: Is beer or wine bad for me?
A: Look, it goes to the earlier point about fruits and vegetables.
As we all know, scientists divide everything in the world into three
categories: animal, mineral, and vegetable. We all know that beer and
wine are not animal, and they are not on the periodic table of
elements, so that only leaves one thing, right? My advice: Have a
burger and a beer and enjoy your liquid vegetables.

Q: How can I calculate my body/fat ratio?
A: Well, if you have a body, and you have body fat, your ratio is one
to one. If you have two bodies, your ratio is two to one, etc.

Q: At the gym, a guy asked me to "spot" for him while he did the bench
press. What did he mean?
A: "Spotting" for someone means you stand over him while he blows air
up your shorts. It's an accepted practice at health clubs; though if
you find that it becomes the ONLY reason why you're going in, you
probably ought to reevaluate your exercise program.

Q: What are some of the advantages of participating in a regular
exercise program?
A: Can't think of a single one, sorry. My philosophy is: No Pain - Good.

Q: If I stop smoking, will I live longer?
A: Nope. Smoking is a sign of individual expression and peace of mind.
If you stop, you'll probably stress yourself to death in record time.

Q: Aren't fried foods bad for you?
A: You're not listening. Foods are fried these days in vegetable oil.
In fact, they're permeated in it. How could getting more vegetables be
bad for you?

Q: What's the secret to healthy eating?
A: Thicker gravy.

Q: Will sit-ups help prevent me from getting a little soft around the
middle?
A: Definitely not! When you exercise a muscle, it gets bigger. You
should only be doing sit-ups if you want a bigger stomach.

I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions you may have had.
</font>

Shinji

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I do however, hold the opinion that meat-eating culture is unhealthy and people should cop on. Not by my telling them (that'd just be rude of me) but by educating themselves on the health risks of what they eat. Most people don't give a second thought to what they eat except with regards to taste.</font>

It's bad for me... So is beer, cannabis, spending too long on the net, watching porn, going for nights without sleep and then drinking red bull or spiked silver to make up for it. Flying in planes to get to exotic places causes ear pressure imbalances which could damage my hearing in the long run. Eating a massive fry-up on a Sunday morning builds up cholesterol. Guzzling down a bowl of truly lush ice cream an odd time in front of a movie makes me fat. Listening to really loud music and dancing like a loon all night gives me a headache and ringing ears the next day, as well as making me look like a knob.

Nobody lives forever anyway - as long as you're avoiding the really stupid stuff (smoking, hard drugs...) the least you can do is enjoy the life you have, rather than sitting in a corner nibbling lettuce leaves and hoping to ward off the grim reaper with a celery stick.

mrblue

Well, who would of thought that what one person eats would raise so much argument?

Vegetarianism is really just a diet, not a religion, or world view.

OK, so some religions preach vegitarianism, but that is just a part of usually a pretty big system...

Anyway, my point is this - JUST DO YOUR OWN THING.

It's about time we learned to think for ourselves as a race. Don't worry about what the guy next door is eating (unless it's a close relative).

So just chill man.

*Don't have a cow man*

Shinji

That's a silly attitude. Nobody is having an argument or leaping at anyone else's throat, it's a discussion of the ethics of the situation. Nobody is "having a cow", it's an interesting and reasonable debate. Just because you clearly have nothing to contribute, doesn't make it any less worthwhile.

DadaKopf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DadaKopf:
Don't have a cow, man.</font>

Cr8or

well the anmials would drop dead any way soo
hehe soo why not help them out

Hobbes

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mrblue:
Vegetarianism is really just a diet, not a religion, or world view.
</font>

If it was just a diet, then why do Vegetarians not cater for meat eaters when they have a meal? Yet most meat eaters cater for vegetarians.

Blitzkrieger

Excellent quote from Microserfs :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Q : If you could be any animal, what animal would you be?

A : You already are an animal.</font>

Why does everybody forget we are animals? Why should we explain everything we do? I'm not really going into that argument - I just wanted to use that quote

As for Bob saying that eating meat is bad for us, I'd tend to agree with Shinji. If you don't enjoy yourself what's the point in living? (disclaimer : I'm not saying you can't be happy not eating meat) Another fav quote :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You might not live longer, but it'll certainly seem that way.</font>

I was thinking about what someone said about us not eating carnivores too - it's kind of funny I'm betting the missing links who went out hunting carnivores stayed missing

I wonder what tiger tastes like?

Chubby

Well, canivores are being consumed, just not on as big a scale. People eat snakes (it's quite nice), crocodiles, sharks, dogs (tried it once when I was very young!) etc in different parts of the world. Carnivores are just probably not traditionally seen as food because they're higher up in the food chain so there're less of them. They also tend to be stronger, more agressive and more agile which makes them harder and dangerous to catch and their muscles tough so it wouldn't be nice to eat.

Since we're talking about food and stuff, would people eat insects if they have to? Ummm, those locus are full of protein *argle*.

neuro-praxis

Good discussion throughout.

Bob, do you believe that all religions that specify guidelines for eating are "laughable"? Do you laugh at your family's cultural and religious reasons for not eating meat?

I don't. I would respect the guidelines of any faith.

I can understand the frustration of people who are vegetarians because of moral/ethical reasons, as I have always been very close to one. However, the fact of the matter is, I just don't agree with their reasoning.

However, I would fully support an improvement in the rearing of animals for consumption. I am a free range egg and chicken buyer because I disagree with their horrible conditions.

[sidenote] I would like to point out that it is perfectly possible to live on a meat free, and extremely unhealthy, diet of packaged meat-free foods. Not all vegetarians are superb eaters - me vegetarian friends eat as much crud as I do. It is just different kinds of crud.

harVee

It's interesting that not many people have mentioned exactly what the meat they love so much actually is. In the past couple of weekends both the irish times and the observer have published extracts from a new book on fast food called Fast Food Nation (i think) It's full of interesting snippets of information such as the fact that the average burger contains "elements" of up to 80 cattle. These "elements" can be anything to do with cow e.g. excrement, brain matter, hoof etc. This is not vegie scaremongering, just one fact of many presented.
Personally i do not eat meat. Not because i have an aversion to killing defenseless animals, but primarily because of the way the animal is treated while it is alive. Incidently, i have stopped purchasing ANY consumerables i think are manufactured in human sweatshops too(not easy when looking for new runners).
But back to the meat issue. TARE, to answer your question 3 :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">3. Fram animals have been brought up in fields and sheads for generatinos. They live and they eat.
If humans were brought up for generations on farms with no need to think or over come problems because something else provides ther basic needs, no mental stimulant what so ever for generations, how smart do you think these humans would be ?</font>

There are two issues here. The first to do with animals. Yes animals have been farmed for about 3.5 millenia. But since the great US depression of the 30's, the notion of "cheap food" and intensive farming has come into being. Thus farming has been treated just like every other business. How do you make money? from increased profit. How do you do that? by cutting costs or charging more for less. It's option one that holds the problem.

So whereas a few generations ago we might have seen thousands of small sustainable farms, each with a few pigs, some cattle and a yard of chickens, we now have huge factory farms, with barns stuffed with thousands of chickens, female pigs that despits being months pregnant, are chained so they cannot move in any way whatsoever. On the radio this morning i heard reports of how cows were injected with slurry so that the farmers (in Ireland btw) could try and get BSE compo from the EU. Add this to the Angeldust and other growth hormone scandels of a few years ago and the farming industry doesn't look too fresh and green.

On the second point about the potential of farming humans, it will be interesting to see the current MTV fed generation assume control of politics and industry in 35 years time. But i'll leave that NO Logo inspired rant for another thread.

SheroN

Animals are bred to be killed and eaten...

Shinji

Chubby - people do eat various types of insects in many parts of the world. I wouldn't be a big fan, although I did eat some kind of bizarre ant-esque insect in a market in London on a dare; once you got over the fact that you were eating an insect, it actually had a very pleasant flavour.

Regarding harVee's point - indeed. I refuse to eat pork pies and the majority of sausages, as well as most burgers. McDonalds I can live with on some level, but not too often; it's a "when I'm really bloody hungry and in a hurry" kind of thing. I won't eat curries or kebabs because I know what kind of rubbish goes into them.

Full cuts of meat, oriental dishes, barbeques, seafood, chicken (proper chicken, not chickenburger or chicken nugget rubbish), sushi... these things are your friend. An 18oz steak, extra rare, sizzling on a skillet with a side serving of fresh-cut chips, is one of those things for which a man *lives*.

Hobbes

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by neuro-praxis:
Bob, do you believe that all religions that specify guidelines for eating are "laughable"? Do you laugh at your family's cultural and religious reasons for not eating meat?
I don't. I would respect the guidelines of any faith.

</font>

Please don't put words in my mouth neuro- I said nothing of the kind. I never generalized about all religious guidelines fitting diet being laughable. If a concept is worthy of derision, I state so- but I never generalize in the manner that you have misquoted me

Faith is a powerful thing- I know this through personal experience- but whether an illogical argument is based on faith or not- doesn't make it any more reasonable. No, I wouldn't ridicule the fact that my parents take their cultural vegetarianism seriously. But that's for a reason. Mainly that their cultural reasons approach the idea of all life, not just human life to be sacred. Animals, whether edible or otherwise whould be given nearly as much respect as another person. That is what their cultural beliefs are based on- ahimsa- the concept of non-violence to all animals.

Because they approach this with a tolerant and respectful stand-point to life, I find that reasonable and acceptable. A simple analogy would be killing in the name of faith. I would not question the idea in a faith that killing another for whatever reason is unjustifiable. However, I would find it ethically non-viable if a faith advocated killing or the killing of specific types of people. This is the distinction I have drawn- my parents believe that all of us have a duty to peacefully coexist with God's creations as much as is possible. The idea that animals are specific creations to be murdered for food is morally unsupportable to me- whether based on faith or otherwise. The fact that people take this concept in on faith doesn't make it any less immoral to me. If people want to eat animals- that's fine- it's their choice, and good luck to them- but to espouse that the animal's functional purpose on Earth is to fill our bellies? That's wrong- it's an intolerant standpoint- a viewpoint punctuated by superiority and power over the life of another living being. It opens people's minds to the idea that animal cruelty is acceptable- after all- if their only purpose is to serve us, might we also not determine the manner of that purpose? Those are dangerous concepts for anyone who believes that animals do not deserve to suffer. It's a power-trip of the human ego- one that has the potential for great harm- as history has shown.

I would agree with Shinji on the lifestyle front- I'm not preaching to people about their health- as long as they are aware of the consequences of their actions and accept them- I have no problem with the way someone lives. It's only when people adopt a lifestyle through ignorance and apathy that I get distressed.

Well- that's about all I have to say for the moment- some interesting threads in Humanities of late

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Vade Retro=

_CreeD_

There's an excellent short story by Neil Gaiman, "BabyCakes", that deals with the whole put-here-to-be-used attitude to animals. I went looking for the text and found this (Haven't listened to it yet but it's Gaiman himself reading it with music by Dave Mckean)

http://www.thenoisemakers.com/media/babycakes.mp3
4.4mb

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Shinji....you do know you probably ate ant poop in the process....Ugh....