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Oblivion or eternal life?
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21-04-2001 5:29pm#1
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Oblivion may be a lazy way out but it's infinitly preferable to spending anything more than 105 years on this hell-hole.
As for the afterlife, if it's anything less than heaven (ie hollywod perfection) then it doesn't seem worth it.
Anyway, only a particularly ego-centric person would feel the world would want them to live forever.
(forgive any spelling mistakes, it's hard to philosophize with one hand and eat peanuts with the other god-dammit!
)
I Live (in a dream world)0 -
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Well like Dev I have the urge to live forever. Immortality for everybody would have profound immplications. Apart from the overcrowding of the planet, the concepts of art, wealth and power would change utterly.
However I don't believe in an afterlife. When the neurons stop firing in my brain for good, that's it, gameover.
This doesn't really bother me because when I die I won't know that I'm dead because my brain will no longer be functioning.
The afterlife is a man-made fantasy created to soothe the fear of death. Live (or more appropriately, die) with it.
Lunacy Abounds! GLminesweeper RO><ORS!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage0 -
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While having no fear of death, or of getting old(as long as im still independant)...I don't believe in or want to end up in any afterlife/eternity.
People who do believe in 'living forever'...why do you WANT to continue on? Does everything not start, run its course and then end?..do you not just get buried, and make a few worms fatter?
Bucon.0 -
Well i would'nt mind living forever in the afterlife as long as i don't go to Hell. I don't know about you guys but being poked with forks by Demons for eternity is'nt quite my piece of cake.
I would like to live to an old man and enjoy everything life has to offer.
Its just my point of view though .....
Ltr!!
Raife!!
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Ya know what gets me?
If we die, and there is nothing there, Im not gonna get to see the look on the faces of devout believers
Of course if there is something there It might not be so bad, but Ill still miss that look Perhaps if Im there a while and I curry some favour with whatever god, then I can get him to fool a believer into thinking they no longer exist, JUST to see that look 0 -
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Pal- "then I can get him to fool a believer into thinking they no longer exist, JUST to see that look"
oh Pal, you crazy critter you! If you don't exist then you have no conciousness with which to preceive non-existence or existence. As a result, we exist because if we didn't exist then we would not be able to imagine or conceive existence.
This was a really good thread but I fear we are getting into the domain of flaming people over their beliefs. Bucon, I'm looking at you.
So lets just stick to whether we believe in afterlife and oblivion and why so.
If you want to bring up other things that are tangentially related, start up a new thread.
My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent0 -
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well i used to think about this alot, but i got bored so i made up my own idea of what happens after death!
pritty much what i came up with is:
when u die all that electrical energy from your body is released...u now exist as pure energy, u can go anywhere, do anything...be anything..
and as for ur body it returns to the earth, rots / decays, and in turn produces new life by produceing nutrients for the plants and micro organisms in the facinity...so in a way u are liveing for ever, but true the lives of many other creatures!
the electrical discharge bit may be crap but the rest is in a sence true...
p.s. i'm founding a new religion, and for the special introductry price of just £500 u get a free sticker with my face on it and the promise of ethernal life
"just because ur not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after u!"0 -
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Paladin:
Ya know what gets me?
If we die, and there is nothing there, Im not gonna get to see the look on the faces of devout believers
</font>
Rofl pal.....you always have a interesting way of looking at things!!
One's viewpoint on this thread is really gona stem from where you are coming from on the whole religion thread. If you "believe" or not essentially.
Personally I want to live forever, that said I find "life after death" very hard to swallow, probably because there really isnt any conclusive proof.
I'm not saying I dont believe in god (which isnt to say I do either), I'm just saying its a lot more likely that "god" was an vastly superior alien.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by azezil:
p.s. i'm founding a new religion, and for the special introductry price of just £500 u get a free sticker with my face on it and the promise of ethernal life</font>
lol azezil..I find that funny on many levels.
You do need to come up with a catchy name for yourself though, dont forget that pope is already taken. 0 -
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SIDENOTE:
And one last thing; having the narrow sightedness to imply that something could never be beyond human comprehension is ridiculous.
Our scientific discoveries and technological advancements of this age would have been beyond the comprehension of humans a hundred years ago. Fifty years ago, in fact.
I don't know if Bucon and Greenhell are superheroes or what, but it is rather difficult for a linear time trained mind like mine to comprehend a state where past, present and future simultaneously are occurring.
But I digress. It is an area that particuarly interests me (I'm reading two books on Einstein right now). Back to the discussion. Proceed!
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Paladin:
How would you know? Just saying like, you've never experienced it have you? (I know this experiencing something to know about it came up b4, but in this case surely it has to be true?).
</font>
Paladin, you misunderstand me.
I am talking about right now. Right now, currently, the idea of the a state where the past present and future exist simultaneously is difficult for my mind to imagine properly. Although, when I am in the midst of this state (perhaps) when I die, I will understand it, one would presume. But at that stage, my mind wouldn't be a simple human mind.
I mean, can you honestly say that a state of time where everything that is and was and will be is currently occurring is simple for you to comprehend? That's what I mean. Omnipotence. How can we understand that? I can't!
And Greenhell, in the bible Jesus often talked about how people simply didn't understand him, even when he was speaking clearly. But I know that isn't really what you're asking. I never suggested, Greenhell, that faith or Christianity was incomprehensible. Or religion, or any of it at all. What I did state, was that I think (and I sigh here) a state where the past present and future occurs in one go is tough for the human mind to understand, accept or *comprehend*. That isn't a Christianity related concept really - to me, with my fascination of time and how it works, it seems to be a scientific concept. It is a recurring theme in theology, however, that we can only get a taste of an understanding as to what the universal truths are, what the ultimate good or expression of love is, despite how strong our human emotions are.
We are as humans (theologically speaking, not generally) tainted shallow versions of God, little people with potential for great things which more often than not, is unfulfilled. So I really believe that the ultimate in good things on earth cannot compare with a taste of heaven.
Again, really off topic, but I just don't like not replying to thos types of questions. Please continue on.
Give me back my towel. I'll sue.0 -
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chubby:
Paladin, Greenhell, quit taking apart what Neuro said. Everyone else these days got their own theory of what god and the afterlife, why not Neuro? Her theories may have lots of holes but she believes in it and that's all that matters. She doesn't need to explain them as it's beyond your comprehension. She gave her opinions and theories, poking holes in them, no matter how politely you do it, is just wrong. You're not even allowed to question them right? You're gonna burn in hell guys for what you have done and your super powers won't be able to save yas.
/me goes back to play with his max steel action figure.
</font>
ROFL...PLD
Bucon.
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No, sadly I dont. I understood perfectly. You misunderstood me. Ill be more clear this time.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Paladin, you misunderstand me.</font>
Your point is that " a state where the past present and future exist simultaneously is difficult for my mind to imagine properly".
Now what was implied, was that its difficult for all human mind (Obviously I couldnt argue with your opinions on your own mind) to comprehend.
My rebuttal:
I will use an example.
To me, comprehending the mathematics involved in complex quantum mechanics theories is beyond me. But then, Ive never studied it, so how do I know its beyond me?
(Dont take the point that youve "studied" this, because thats not what I mean at all and Ill try to avoid any further misunderstandings.)
However, to say that experiencing "whatever state of mind" is beyond the human mind is obviously impossible to substantiate, however trying to clarify what Im trying to say here is difficult.
How could someone understand that 1 = 2?
If in actual mathematics its impossible, why would we think it is possible? Its rules of mathematics that make it impossible, however if we were to experience the rules that make it possible (whatever they might be) what is to say we wouldnt understand?
If under linear time its impossible to understand a state of mind where time is not linear then you have no idea that if under certain conditions where time was not linear that we would not be able to comprehend(and ill point out that us discussing time is linear is already a step beyond thinking of linear time isnt it?)
This is a rather pointless point (dontchya love the oxymoron) Ill admit, but I enjoyed making it as much as people will detest trying to understand it
Also, I did say that there might be things that the human mind might not comprehend. However, I suppose, there is a possiblility that there might not be in the long run Gotta keep an open mind.
Im not saying there is anything wrong with your beliefs ok, opposite in fact (open to all possibilities on the absolute unknown like) all Im saying is that if you go to the trouble of analysing it as deeply as you did then you might as well go a bit deeper to qualify your ideas eh? Food for thought you might say.
Also..
Would you stop complaining like a little girl..oh. doh!<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Of course though, some people got a jab in.</font>
Its a public forum for goodness sake, and a pis$taking is one of the things that makes life fun.
In response to the overall question, everlasting (corporeal) life wouldnt be so frightening to me. I really would dearly love to be around to see all the advances\mistakes\evolutions the human race makes in the next few millenia.0 -
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Paladin:
This is a rather pointless point (dontchya love the oxymoron) Ill admit, but I enjoyed making it as much as people will detest trying to understand it </font>
i fear it may be beyond my comprehension..
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Two visions of hell: the David Carroll short story where a man is condemned to watch Jane Fonda films for eternity.
And Christopher in The Sopranos where it's St. Patrick's Day every day for eternity in an Irish bar
As for the afterlife, there is none, it's oblivion all the way.0 -
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Gees. I say something simple, I get misunderstood. I say something complex and try to make it clear, I STILL get misunderstood.
Firstly, good post Ex.
Secondly, Im glad you didnt class me in the same as chubby because his thoughts are very dissimiliar to mine
Thirdly
Aww shuwks<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Pal (and seeing as he is my pal I am going to call him Pal</font>
Fourthly..
Haha. Is your real name Sigmund? Also I notice you dont have an email address so<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">To challenge that at such length makes me wonder whether:
A) you do actually like to hassle her unfairly
Pal wants her bad and sublimates these feelings he can’t deal with into provoking her.</font>
to that.
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Now, dealing with the actual substance.
I used the wrong word in my earlier post.
Rebuttal was not what I meant. Reply would have been more accurate.
This time, I will (hopefully) make it so clear as to be completely understood.
Neuro said that it would be a state of mind beyond human comprehension.
All Im saying is that maybe a human mind experiences this "state of non-linear time" it and goes, "Oooooh, NOW I get it, its not that complicated after all I just needed to experience it".
Now To avoid taking this apart, I never said you had to die to experience this, just that the human mind RIGHT NOW in its current state might be able to understand. I never acknowledged this was an afterlife. Even if it was, its still possible the human mind as we see it is still intact (is that not possible?)
Im not saying this is the case either, it is JUST a possibility that was not open to receival.
Ex (m8) your rebuke of my maths analagy, although thorough (well it wasnt really because you misunderstood it, but it was very interesting thinking had I meant it the way you thought ) had the major flaw in that you misperceived it as something more than a simple basic analagy used to convey my train of thought. There was absolutely no substance to the analagy, so....
(I just wanted to laff at that again<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">To challenge that at such length makes me wonder whether:
A) you do actually like to hassle meunfairly*you* want *me* bad and sublimates these feelings *you* can’t deal with into provoking *me*.</font>)
Im not close minded about the afterlife/oblivion or whatever it may be Ex(m8), all Im advocating is openmindedness.
I absolutely did not say anyone was wrong.
I never knocked anyones beliefs.
I am just echoing statements made earlier.
Even the most devout believers in religion/whatever have to acknowlegde that they do not know (and you do in fairness, you class it as faith) but to dismiss an openminded approach because it is not what you believe is extremely arrogant.
This is what I was talking about in my earlier post. Neuro had this explaination. I didnt say it was wrong, I said perhaps there is more to it and thats all.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If one believes in God, then one can surely accept his omnipotence. Which means, God works in an entirely different time scheme. To us, time is linear, events have a beginning and an end, and we have memory and a sense of mystery about the future. God is a being who is in the past, present and future all at once, because time is not linear to him. He craeted it. It is beyond human comprehension really, because everything to us is measured.</font>
In fact, what I said was..<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">How would you know? Just saying like, you've never experienced it have you?</font>
I conclude with a big *sheeesh*.
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Okay, this is a response to Excelsior so it's kinda off-topic and my reponses and questions may show even more disrepect but what can I do? I'm curious and I am not a diplomat.
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[Excelsior]
Chubby writes, “god by your definition and the church's”. Mistake number one. Neuro is a Christian, not a Catholic. She actually is a Free Christian, she has no religion and therefore she should not in anyway be compared to the Roman Catholic Church. Its like comparing Hindu belief to Buddhism because they’re both Asian. (Hyperbolic statement.)
[Response]
I wasn’t equating Christianity with Catholicism, I was just making a general statement that god by definition, in any religion and beliefs, is omnipotence. There was an asian guy called Hindu? Well I didn’t know that.
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[Excelsior]
Chubby writes “Now, where did you get the idea that afterlife is just us living outside the space-time continuum so our soul (if such a thing exists) becomes omnipresent?”
Well, she doesn’t get that idea, she doesn’t have that idea, and she has not portrayed such an opinion at any time in this discussion. In fact, you are wholly basing your opinion upon assumption that is unsubstantiated. Afterlife is not “just us living outside the space-time continuum”. And she never said it was. You want a new thread describing afterlife opinions? Go set one up. You want to come in here and drop words about casually like some intellectual titan who needs not pay any heed to opinions that some people hold dear? I would ask you didn’t. But as Pal wisely said this is a “public forum” and I can do no more than try to respond.
[Response]
Well, Neuro said that “God is a being who is in the past, present and future all at once, because time is not linear to him. He craeted it. It is beyond human comprehension really, because everything to us is measured. So anyway, afterlife would be incredible, because it would be outside our normal, and traditionally understood time spheres”. She is hinting at the fact that in the afterlife, herself and other believers would join god outside of the space-time continuum we are in now. If I misunderstood what she was saying I am sure she can defend it herself. Not that I don’t appreciate your input.
And I never pretended to be some intellectual titan who doesn’t care about other people’s opinions. I just like to question them when they see them as facts and I don’t. I think I am best described as an opinionated, arrogant dimwit who thinks he got the answers to the world’s problems.
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[Excelsior]
Chubby then writes, “You seem to believe in a personal god that believes in what you believe in and you based it on the Christian god.”
This is a man who “used to go to a catholic school” and so we should be surprised when Christian teaching is “news to me”?!?
Well Chubby, Neuro doesn’t “base” her “personal god… on the Christian God.” The Christian God, IS A PERSONAL GOD. That in fact, is the defining characteristic of Christian’s Godhead. A Christian believes that they are one-on-one with Jesus when in prayer. A Christian believes that the Holy Spirit, the third element of the Trinity goes with them in all they do. But you were educated a Catholic so therefore we must all be the same as the priests you know.
[Response]
I never did once said I paid attention in religion class. Anyway, yeah I should read up on a little bit more on Christianity and Catholicism and other religions but I got too many other things to do than to find a religion that suits me.
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[Excelsior]
“You’ve spoken to god? You know god?” This is dealt with in the previous paragraph. Christians believe this. Jesus in the gospels says that the only way to Heaven is to know Him. You can choose not to agree and doubt their claims, but that is what Christianity is.
[Response]
You've probably heard this argument before but does this hold true for people who have never heard of the Christian faith, the bible or Jesus Christ? People are doomed not to go to Heaven and presumably end up in hell through no fault of their own other than ignorance?
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[Excelsior]
“you are so sure you know god when all you have to go on are words written by men who claimed that they were inspired by god.” Well this is the essence of faith. I make a generalisation here but most Christians become Christians when they pay these guys a little attention for whatever reason, pray and then actually feel the presence of God. And the effect of God. Well, once again, this is only what they believe. You clearly don’t understand if you think that all these people change their lives in all these ways simply because of a book.
[Response]
Well, I think the point I was trying to make is that you wouldn’t know about the Christian god if it weren’t for the bible. If all traces of the bible were destroyed and man is forbidden to ever mention Christianity or Catholicism, how would you know about Jesus? This is not even a question of faith because without the knowledge, what do you have to believe in in the first place? Yes, I think all the "evil" came from that book!(am I bible bashing or just showing disrepect?)
[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 24-04-2001).]0 -
Holy smoking toilets Batman, a lot happened in my absence here.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Musician:
If you have faith all well and good but you have to acknowledge that nobody can be sure.</font>
Well, Musician, you see, that is what faith is about, really. It might be your perspective that nobody can be sure, and you may always believe that. Everyone can recognise, I think, that they are never 100% *right* in their perspective, as I do I willingly, but I am sure of my *faith*. I am completely sure about God and what I can trust in Him, because, as Excelsior talked about a little while ago, my faith is personal. It is a living relationship with Jesus Christ, which might be difficult to understand if you aren't in that same relationship. But the fact of the matter is, I get responses to my prayer, on a daily basis. If one claimed to have faith, and yet said that you couldn't be sure, then that is an utter contradiction. If you aren't sure, then you don't have faith!<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Musician:
Then we are responsible for the sadism. As an agnostic I would say that if I believed in a God or a power it would not be so that I could blame him for all my problems and not so that I could console myself with the guarantee of an Afterlife. </font>
I agree with you fully that it is the humans who are responsible for the sadism in the world, and calling God a sadist seems to me, to be a bit of a scapegoat for the atrocities that we have committed against each other. I also don't blame any of my problems on God. However, I did not become a Christian *because* of the fringe benefits such as eternal life. I became a Christian because I realised that Christ was my saviour (another long story), and only then did I truly realise what was being offered to me.
By the way, Musician, Jesus was either our saviour or an utter *lunatic*, one or the other, "nice guy" really does not come into the equation. (Ah, I know what you meant, man.)<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Paladin:
Even the most devout believers in religion/whatever have to acknowlegde that they do not know (and you do in fairness, you class it as faith) but to dismiss an openminded approach because it is not what you believe is extremely arrogant. </font>
A belief in a religion is utterly different to faith, Paladin. Take Satanism for example, I'm not particularly bashing it or anything, it is just a good one to spring to mind because I know you all know what it is about, as Excel was posting about it a while back. It is a set of rules and acceptance and therefore belief in these rules. And people choose to follow them. Grand. But where is the faith? They don't place faith in anything. Trust in their choice of rules perhaps (which, at first glance, don't seem too bad at all) is required, but no trust in an entity. Also, no promises are made. No prophesies are written. You can basically live by these rules and be a nice person (if a little indulgent), with no faith required. Definitely no spiritual struggles are involved. So basically, I can't directly speak for Excelsior, but I know for a fact that he doesn't dismiss open-minded approaches, and neither do I. But that doesn't mean that I haven't accepted some things as "gospel". (Fitting term.) Then there are loads of things in Christianity which are fascinating, because they aren't clear cut. There is a lot of debate amongst Christians about many aspects of the bible and many aspects of ethics and faith. It is more philospohical and leaves more scope for personal approaches than folks might realise. This is why philosophy and theology are so flipping interesting.
Onto chubby.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chubby:
Now, where did you get the idea that afterlife is just us living outside the space-time continuum so our soul (if such a thing exists) becomes omnipresent </font>
Actually, Chub, the idea is sourced from my thoughts. I don't know what will happen when I die, or what kind of life it will be, except that it will be with God. I have no idea if the soul (which I firmly believe exists, which is encompassed in another huge theological argument amongst Christians about the difference between the soul, spirit, mind, etc.) becomes omnipresent or not, as God is, but instead I was stating that the soul might be in an omnipresent time sphere. It was an idea, an opinion, a theory, backed up by my faith in the prophesies, gospels and in Jesus. I actually have no clue what kind of state Heaven will be. All that I am positive of is that if it is with God, I have nothing whatever to worry about. However, a little speculation whilst I'm here is fun. <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chubby:
She is hinting at the fact that in the afterlife, herself and other believers would join god outside of the space-time continuum we are in now. If I misunderstood what she was saying I am sure she can defend it herself. Not that I don’t appreciate your input.</font>
I am hinting at that, man, but as I said, it is only a theory. Any theory about life after death, as pointed out by Dadakopf, cannot be backed up by numbers (and numbers are the only things that seem to really satisfy us in terms of guarantees). However, without a doubt, I am NOT hinting that we get omnipotence when we die. This would put us on the same level as God, and in fact, I don't even feel sure that we will ever meet our relatives there, as is a common Catholic belief preached in church. I don't know what will happen, I have my ideas and I just have to wait and see.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">:Originally posted by Chubby:
Anyway, yeah I should read up on a little bit more on Christianity and Catholicism and other religions but I got too many other things to do than to find a religion that suits me. </font>
It isn't about what "suits" me, Chubby. Believe me, there are some aspects of being a Christian that are very difficult and challenging. My life would be much easier if I diluted things and did it my own way. However, that would be pointless. My free will is a gift that I relish, and choosing to surrender aspects of it to the one thing that my life is built around might sound vulnerable to anyone else, but it is a source of enormous strength to me. I have a strong, disciplined character in many ways. I am a really satisfied person, meanwhile always being hungry for knowledge.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chubby:
You've probably heard this argument before but does this hold true for people who have never heard of the Christian faith, the bible or Jesus Christ? People are doomed not to go to Heaven and presumably end up in hell through no fault of their own other than ignorance? If all traces of the bible were destroyed and man is forbidden to ever mention Christianity or Catholicism, how would you know about Jesus? </font>
It IS an argument I have heard before, because I have been on your side of it many times in the past in my early Christian days. Talking biblically, Chubby, it reads that God is a totally impartial God and does not play favourites with his people. This implies to me that everyone would get a fair go. The bible states that God does not wish to exclude anyone, he is patient with us. So I believe, based also on the throies of John Allen, that if a person has not heard the message of God, then they will be judged on two things: (1) Their acknowledgement of a divine power of some kind (as all tribes of the world are noted to have, although it might take the shape of sun worshipping etc.) and (2) Their abiding of their conscience as to what is right and wrong in their culture group. This of course, is just a theory, Chubby, but one I feel fairly sure of, because again and again the bible states that God is fair. (This argument opens the door to the theological debate about whether we choose God or God chooses us, and a whole other can of worms that I just do not have time for, and no doubt nobody would want to read!)
Thanks for reading. Am I in the running for longest post ever?!
Give me back my towel. I'll sue.
edited for command error
[This message has been edited by neuro-praxis (edited 24-04-2001).]0 -
No, Bob and I still p155 on your meagre attempts at boring detail and length.
My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent0 -
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