Hitler was grate!

DadaKopf

discuss.

Clintons Cat

well he made the trains run on time,
no wait that was mussolini,
i give up

neuro-praxis

Was that supposed to controversial?

Do you mean grate like grated cheese? Mmmm. Tasty cheese. Excuse me. My perplexity has left me and been replaced by toasty sandwich urges.

Bah.

Belisarius

Certainly eyecatching Koph , and we'll pass "grate" off as a pun , without too many questions
Ehh well the Main good thing you could point out is his Economic miracle of Dragging Germany as a nation on the point collapse after WW1 and Versailles . Not only did he kick the economy into gear traditionally , he also spearheaded Modern Infrastucture in Europe , The autobahns for example . Of course the remenants of the Industrial powerhouse still lives on today In incarnations like the Volswagen Group . Militarily he effected somewhat of a revolution in Tactics , Giving the world a wake-up in reguards to tank-warfare at the expense of Poland and France . I could go on but in the end Hitler wasnt actually very effective leader . Through his Interfereance and meddling he essentially ended his own riech *both in Peace and wartime*, undermining the work of His People . Germany at the Time had the makings of a new renaissance in Science and Engineering if it were not for National Socialism . The People who showed greatness were undermined by Die Furhers self image as a "jack of all trades" Oh right ..Rockets aswell , as the fellah said
"Russian space ships , American spaceships , theyre made by Germans"

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Shrewgar!

Zapper

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Belisarius:
Ehh well the Main good thing you could point out is his Economic miracle of Dragging Germany as a nation on the point collapse after WW1 and Versailles . Not only did he kick the economy into gear traditionally...... </font>

Yeah, i could do that too if i dismissed a few million of the population as "sub-human" and therefor not counting towards any kind of statitic. The jews were deemed non-citizens, sacked from high-profile jobs -opening up millions for unemployed "ayrian" germans and were not allowed welfare - saving the government a bit too. Sadly even taking this into account and a fact that is very rarley mentioned - Germany was on the brink of financial disatster when the war ended - They could not keep up teh cost of fighting a war.

Blitzkrieger

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zapper:
They could not keep up the cost of

</font>

of losing the war...

By all accounts Hitler was an idiot who was good at public speaking (sorta like Steve Jobs). Most of his high-level staff were too. Often it was the more junior people in the reich who actually did things well. I'm over simplifying again but he was just a lucky half-wit, helped by the fact that the allies made crap decisions too.

Belisarius

Also , I think youve over stated the numbers there , also most of the Jewish population would be self employed or employed within Jewish Businesses *not all , but a considerable portion* So really they werent opening up that many jobs , As for no social welfare . That was something of a Privilage back then , Considering the economic state of the Nation , Its a credit to Nazi economic policy anyone got it , And the German economic recovery started very early in the Thirties , before Anti-Zionic policies were widespread. And hell Jews were only about 5% of German population , theyd have to be a Big Ass Minority to Kickstart the German Industry , and Oh yeah as Blitz stated , the reason German economy was "Kaput" *note the German there , not too shabby* Was because it was physically destroyed .Blitz also noted the Incompetance of High ranking officials *Prominant NASDAP members with little qualification* The Middle management was truly Brillaint *The Civil Servant Albert Speer for example*

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Shrewgar!

Zapper

Indeed, and all good an valid points yeah, i suppose i did over exaggerate the figures a bit - my point was however that all was not as rosey in the 3rd reich as it seemed. But TBH i feel that if were not for the italians switching sides, the war would have perhaps had a different outcome.

Call Hitler what you will how-ever, he was incredibly good at manipulating the public. Although a range of factors actually got him elected chancellor of the weimar republic - it was teh nazi propoganda machine which was the main driving force - and a force which is still in force in some peoples minds today.


|Course..all this didnt stop Hitler from being a vegatarian who liked cream buns - weirdo

Belisarius

True , The Opening of the Italian front was a major point in the war , but I dont think Germany would ever have overcome the USSR , even without the Normandy and Italian fronts to worry about aswell , Its a commonly held Misconception that "The allies Defeated Germany" , Truthfully It was the lives of 20million+ Russians

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Shrewgar!

Belisarius

Disturbing fact , Since the end of WW2 , Adolf Hitler has been the most documented man in the World , voyeuristic quirk ,or sub-concious empathy?

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Shrewgar!

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Belisarius:
Disturbing fact , Since the end of WW2 , Adolf Hitler has been the most documented man in the World , voyeuristic quirk ,or sub-concious empathy?

</font>

i put it down to a universal couriousity/fetish for small oily men with uniforms and bizzarre moustaches.

the fnj

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Belisarius:
Militarily he effected somewhat of a revolution in Tactics , Giving the world a wake-up in reguards to tank-warfare at the expense of Poland and France .
</font>

Hitler was a very bad military tactician. When he let his generals run the military drive they won on every front. They had control of mainland europe and england was on it's knees. Hitler then decided to have a go at this tactic's lark. Reduces the campaign on britian and decides to break is threaty with Stalin and attacks Russia.

It is true the allies did not win the war Hitler lost it.

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Clan Acid

Yossarian

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:
Hitler was a very bad military tactician. When he let his generals run the military drive they won on every front. They had control of mainland europe and england was on it's knees. Hitler then decided to have a go at this tactic's lark. Reduces the campaign on britian and decides to break is threaty with Stalin and attacks Russia.

It is true the allies did not win the war Hitler lost it.

</font>

The mistake was starting the war. The german army and economy were not prepared for war, towards the end of operation Barbarossa german industry was told to scale back production as the war would shortly be over!
The army on the western fron faced a severe ammunition shortage at the time it was supposed to be invading France. The german high command (OKH) attempted to persuade the leadership against an attack on the west. When this failed, they started planning for the attack against the west (1940). The resulting plan was merley a rehash of the Schliefen plan with the inherant problem of lacking an objective.
It has been noted that by starting the war the fundementals of Von Clausewitz teachings had been ignored. There was no clear objective, just attempts at grabing patches of land when oportunities arose.

As for Hitler revolutionizing military tactics with tank warefare, this is false. The men most responsible for that are Heinz Guderian and Eric von Manstein. Guderian developed how tanks should be used as part of a fully mobilized and mixed force.

Examples of Hitlers medaling would include the halt order issued to the panzer divisions closing on the trapped BEF at Dunkirk, thus allowing them time to be evacuated. The diversion of the panzer forces away from the Moscow axis of attack in support of pointless attacks to the south, directly resulted in the failure to take Moscow. The original plan for the summer offensive in 1942 envisaged a strike in the south as far east as the volga. German forces were not to attempt to take Stalingrad as this would tie down the bulk of the german forces in city fighting. As the German army neared Stalingrad Hitler ordered the city captured. This resulted in the bulk of the german forces being tied down in city fighting. His refusal to allow the 6th army to withdraw from Stalingrad resulted in it being destroyed. And again in 1943 his insistance on the Kursk salient being taken resulted in the bulk of thre german tank forces being destroyed in action against a well prepared soviet defences.
His dismissal of Soviet military buildup on the eastern front in 1945, 6 million men, as Phantom armies!
There are many more examples of sheer incompitance.

One other is his practice of building resentment between different government and military departments, each struggling sagainst the other for there own political gain.

He also ignored the advice of his professional army commanders. When the Allies had broken out of there beachhead in Normandy, von Runstedt was asked what to do next, he replied "Make peace you fools!".
Needless to say he was dismissed.



[This message has been edited by Yossarian (edited 22-03-2001).]

Yossarian

Originally posted by Excelsior:

"The NAZIs did fine under their generals and lost the war under their leader."

I suspect if it had been left to the General Staff and OKH there would not have been a war in 1939. They were convinced that the Armed forces were totally unprepared for it.


"In our striving for good we are willing to compromise ourselves with the greatest evil."

Joseph Stalin?
Im reminded of Churchills comment in the commons about becoming allies with Stalin, "
If Hitler invaded hell i would allie with the devil".

"Hitler wasn't all bad."

Yes he was.
(presuming you mean Bad as in evil, and not bad as in incompetant)
[/B][/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by Yossarian (edited 22-03-2001).]

--Kaiser--

excelsior:

are you saying that dropping a nuclear bomb on hiroshima amd nagasaki was GOOD?

I dont believe there was any justification for killing those millions of people

Draco

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zapper:
Germany was on the brink of financial disatster when the war ended - They could not keep up teh cost of fighting a war.
</font>

And so was everyone else except for the Americans. Wars are hidiously expensive to wage - and the Germans had been fighting for 6 odd years at this stage.

TwoShedsJackson

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by --Kaiser--:
excelsior:

are you saying that dropping a nuclear bomb on hiroshima amd nagasaki was GOOD?

I dont believe there was any justification for killing those millions of people</font>

Kaiser - the total amount of people killed in the two atomic bomb explosions was around 140,000 with probably some tens of thousands more dying from cancers etc. in successive generations.

Compare this with that the US Joint Chiefs of Staff estimated would be up to two million dead if the US had had to launch a full scale land invasion of Japan to force her to surrender.

--Kaiser--

are you sure?

/me slaps self on wrist

OK, i didnt have the facts right, but i still think that was appalling.

Excelsior

Kaiser, I meant, as anyone with a knowledge of history could probably surmise, that although the dropping of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs prevented far more carnage, far more death and a much longer, extended surrender in the Far East, it was still a moment of extreme evil.
That is my point. I move into the area of opinion when I claim it to be the defining moment of humanity's existence. We aim to do good, (even Hitler THOUGHT he was doing good) but we perpertrate the greatest evils in search of it.
Re-read my post people. Hitler is the most disgusting character I have ever come across. I am sickened by what he did.
I write "Hitler wasn't all bad."
and then qualify it by saying "But only really inasmuch as someone in power for that long with that much resource at his fingers can't but succeed with some things."
That is in response to the apparent revisionism of history that Belisarius has provided us. Any of the (and the economy and his ability to fight wars do not come under the following heading) "good-points" of his regime seem to me to be default. You can't fail at EVERYTHING if you stay in ultimate power for 12 years.

And his motorways were the first Castor. They were kind of ever so slightly useful to Germany in their recovery.

It might be emotionally pleasing, and in a way, very right to say that based on the truly dispicable acts of Hitler and his government we can declare him totally all bad, but that isn't just or accurate.
My point is that even his "achievements" are tinged with a sort of pathetic nature.
Ultimately, in response to Kopf's topic, he was the opposite of great.

Coyote

It's not the number of people that were killed in the bomb it was the becose if was one bomb doing it, As a point more people were killed in the fire bombing of Tokyo city (city was made of wood) in one night by the US air force that in the 2 atomic bombs

Coyote

GreenHell

Mussolini build the autostrada before hitler.

Hitler was not a tacticon he was a politican thats why he order attacks on Stalingrad instead of going for the oil.

Or instead of telling Rommel to retreat which he did neway he told him "victory or death".

Hitler was a dumbass when you look at the last stages of the war. His perparations before d-day where laughable and his decision to hold onto the north of italy was foolish. So from a military point of view Hitler deserves the title Gob****e.

Although the blitzKrieg tactic was Superb when you look at the german economy every thing was gear to sudden burst on production in one area and then switched to another.

Of course no one can ever say hitler was a nice guy anyone who brings around the deaths of 6 million jews is a scumbag.

Belisarius

Err ya , I seem not to be expressing myself Properly.When I say "Hitler" I mean Germany under the leadership of Hitler , It would be Naieve to believe Hitler ran Germany all by himself , In fact he did very little actual Administration ,Concerning himself with more Grandiose pursuits as Architechture .Also I think I said Hitler wasnt much of a General , and that his Interfereance inevitable ended in Disaster . As for the development of Tank warfare , true Hitler didnt Invent it , but he did take have some forsight by Indulging his General at what must have been a very risky decision at the time. and As for the economic Counter-argument . No matter how many signs of rebuilding it showed it was reguardless a Boom of Leviathan proportions to Propel Germany from a sub-anarchic mess to one of the Powerhouses of Europe . Yeah anyone could build motorways , but I defy you to find any in france dating before the 40s , 50s proabably. The Beetle thing , I dont believe he Actually made the beetle , But the National Socialists did create *or at least the appearance of* Social upheaval ,the Atmosphere in which most great Ideas occur , To this we have the Germans under Nazism , Result : The proletarian Motor car . And again the German Economic Miracle cannot be directly attributed to the Marginalisation of the Jewish population of Germany , For the simple fact that Most of marginalisation occured well after Germany started to boom , that is to say Economic sanctions .and Even so due to the nature of the Jewish in Germany before the War ,it would have mainly served to destroy traditional Jewish businesses , not replacing them with ethnic German mirrors. And bye the Way yes you did overstate the facts ,as Caster pointed out they were just under 1% of the population , hardly enough to carry the Economic recovery of a nation Hmmn?

And as for spouting claptrap? Whats all this about Hiroshima being the Defining moment of Humanity? Forget about wheel the printing press , the steam engine , Lets go make an expression of the Human race by "Nukin some Japs, Yeehaw" . Yes thats quite true Excelsior , Im the one spouting Claptrap *note the sarcasm in my....type*

Although...In retrospect , You proabably have the Right Idea about Hiroshima ,And its truly bloody Scary

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Shrewgar!

Zapper

Yeah Castor, sorry every1. Hitelr was of course NEVER "elected" chancellor by the german peeps and in fact, if i remember things correctly, his popularity was on the decline when he became chancellor. It was of course only with this co-allition that he assumed power. Sorry been a few years since i studied this

Excelsior

"And the German economic recovery started very early in the Thirties" -Belisarius

Actually, it was improving in the 6-10 months before he came to power. It wasn't his economic miracle. It was all built on propaganda, hope and a huge amount of luck. Putting your people to work on building roads might kickstart an economy, but a full, stable economy it does not make. And the fact of the matter is that Germany concerned itself with employing its people in state works.
As far as your comments about Jewish people and their employment histories are concerned you miss a vital point. Hitler not only sacked the Jews from the Civil Service (who gives a fu<k how many there were, it is inherently disgusting) he forced millions of people to lose their livelihoods (and I am not over estimating my numbers) when he cracked down on Jewish owned business.

The suggestion that he was in any way gifted in the field of military tactics deserves to be laughed at. That is an appaling mistruth. The NAZIs did fine under their generals and lost the war under their leader.

In fact, his only positive legacy for me is his Autobahns. But a more stringent envioronmentalist would disagree seeing as they were hardly planned with the symbiosis of Germany's envioronment in mind.
That and his role in the development of the Beetle, which was a clever idea that was geniusly implemented by Ferdinand Porsche.

The reason Hitler fascinates us is not subconcious empathy or any such revisionist claptrap (and this is truly what has been uttered here). The reason is that WWII is the defining period of humanity. It demonstrates that we will go to any lengths for prejudice and greed, kill 6 million here, send 20 million to their deaths there, and that we will find it easy to dehumanise an enemy. I would argue in fact, that the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima, "to finally end" what Hitler began, is the defining moment, instant, second of our race. In our striving for good we are willing to compromise ourselves with the greatest evil.

Hitler wasn't all bad. But only really inasmuch as someone in power for that long with that much resource at his fingers can't but succeed with some things.

TwoShedsJackson

'Hitler wasn't all bad'. You what!?

Anyone who would attempt to exterminate a section of human society based on their race, sexual orientation, mental disabilities and numerous other grounds - it doesn't matter if he had any good in him.

As for his 'positive legacy' being the autobahns - please, anyone can build a bunch of motorways.

As a military tactician he was a joke, and it's very fortunate for us that he was or the world could be pretty different today. Obsession with destroying the Bolshevist menace led him to invade Russia in 1941, it made no military sense whatsoever.

Zapper - Hitler was never elected Chancellor by the German people, in fact the Nazi's never got a clear majority in an election, I beleive they got around 47% in 1930 - Hitler became Chancellor through political dealings when a coalition between the NSDAP and the ruling party under Kurt von Schleicher was arranged to try and keep the Communist menace at bay.

Belisarius - there were 700,000 Jews in Germany in 1933, comprising only .9% of the aprroximate 70 million population. The majority of Jews killed by the Nazis were in Poland (around 2,000,000) and the Baltic States (another 1,000,000 or so)

amp

Having visited the German Concentration camp Auchwitz Museum I can also say that without Hitler we wouldn't have as much information about how humans brains explode in a vacuum, how the human body reacts to extreme cold/heat, the most efficient yet most painfull way to gass someone and many other vital facts.
I'm sure all the "volunteers" who took part in these "experiments" appreciated giving their lives as well as all their property (right down to the gold fillings in their teeth) to aid the Third Reich's progress.

Germany then (as it does to day) had a large population, huge natural resources like coal/steel and a massive agriculture. Thorughout history it was always a major power. It wasn't hard for Hitler to turn Germany around from the depression it was in, especially by boosting war equipment manufacturing and public works.
Imported goods were reduced thus lessening the competition for indigenous industries.

He boosted public confidence by blaming Germanys problems on other countries and the Jewish population. So probably the only thing he was ever good at was instilling hatred en mass.

In short, Fu<k Hitler.

---

Lunacy Abounds! Play GLminesweeper!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Yossarian

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Coyote:
It's not the number of people that were killed in the bomb it was the becose if was one bomb doing it, As a point more people were killed in the fire bombing of Tokyo city (city was made of wood) in one night by the US air force that in the 2 atomic bombs

Coyote</font>

Due to the long distances American Bombers had to fly and the low payload they could carry, They could not ensure destruction of Tokyos industrial zones and shipyards. It was decided to target the residential zones with incenderies and napalm. Most of these house were made of wood and were quickly consumed by the firestorm, (wall of flames traveling at 100mph). After all, what use is
a shipyard if all the workers have been incinerated?

Excelsior

I totally agree with Amp here. Though I wouldn't have written the last line the same way.
I never stated that the Jewish economic sanctions (if we will call them that) contributed in any way to the German economic recovery (not miracle). In fact, that kind of upheaval isn't the kind of thing an economy desires. And millions were displaced by these sanctions. Amazingly enough, the Jewish business owners employed people. Those employers were not all Jewish. As a result millions were affected.
Germany, as Amp pointed out, was capable of recovering. It would have happened in the 30s regardless of NAZIism. Hitler's government just affected the magnitude of such a recovery. It affected it with shallow, temporary and propagandistic attempts at full employment. Building roads does not an economy make. When you have built all your roads you are left in as bad a position as when you began. Hitler didn't get a chance to finish his roads.
Then Belisarius misunderstands my Hiroshima statements. Its quite simple really. The printing press and the wheel might make us feel good about ourselves, but Hitler, and the 30s and 40s, finishing with the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, show us that we in fact, use our gifts, our ingenuity, for the greatest of evils. I state again as I did before, that Hiroshima statement is an opinion.
I don't pass it off as a historical fact.

History deserves honesty. And in honesty, Hitler is the most appalling character in history. But to be fully truthful, and as we are discussing how great he is, he did achieve some things. (The Beetle came about as a result of his backing of Dr Ferdinand Porsche by the way) The thing I have to say is that anyone in complete control of a country the size of Germany for 12 years can't fail at everything.

Hobbes

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yossarian:
*snip*</font>

Also they only had what? 3 bombs tops and no easy way to make another any time soon. The bombs were dropped to get a point across that they could do it to the rest of the country (when they couldn't).

Or to put it better. Japan would not of given in. They would of fought to the last person all the way to Toyko and even afterwards. When faced with the possible extinction of your race they were pretty much demoralised. If they had known the US were bluffing about the rest of the bombs they might not of given up so quickly.


[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited 23-03-2001).]

amp

Oh cool, yeah, what a great invention the VW Beetle was! Wow! Without that we wouldn't have the classic film "Herbie goes bananas"

Yes indeed, when we look back on the 20th century the VW Beetle will be recognised as one of the great accomplishments up there with the telephone and the internet.

It's a car, four wheels and a front mounted engine. It sold pretty well. Anyone like to explain how that furthered the progress of mankind?

Now, I don't know if VW were involved with this kind of thing but a lot of the big German companies of the time were provided with slave labour by the German authorities. Even IBM are currently in trouble over selling equipment allegedly used to count the concentration camp population.

Another myth about Germany of the time was that it was some form of model economy or ordered structure. Couldn't be further from the truth. Germany was ruled internally in zones mostly jumped up mini-fuhrers and corruption was rife. And I don't mean the type corruption we're currently hearing about in our own tribunals. I'm talking the state handing out monopolys to companies who kick-backed large sums of deutchmarks.

Hitler didn't design the beetle or invent the mass production of cars, nor did he invent the motorway. Yes these things happened while he was in power but saying they were his accomplishments is a bit silly imho.

Is the American President who was in power when Henry Ford developed mass production remembered? Not to my mind.

Anybody here really think Bertie Ahern is personaly responsible for the Celtic Tiger?

Think about it.

---

Lunacy Abounds! Play GLminesweeper!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Yossarian

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by amp:
Oh cool, yeah, what a great invention the VW Beetle was! Wow! Without that we wouldn't have the classic film "Herbie goes bananas"

Aint it ironic, the symbol of hippie flower power was also the a symbol of National Socialism in all its glory (sarcasm).

[/B]</font>

Blitzkrieger

The "Hirshoma" debate always seems to be a popular one with Americans so lets not get into it here

When you look at Dresden, Tokyo, Iwo Jyma (spelling?) millions upon millions of lives were saved, on both sides, by dropping the bomb.

Belisarius

Hmmn , youve got half a point ,but I doubt saving Germans lives were high in the priority's of Bomber Command during WW2 , anything but

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Shrewgar!

Manach

Robert Harris wrote an excellent book 'Fatherland' Speculative fiction in which Hitler won the war. Berlin was a shining city of marble, yet scratch the surface and the evil banality was made manifest.

On the subject of Harris (Bomber), can anyone explain the justification of Dresden. The premise behind the bomber offensive was that it would shatter German Moral & destroy their Industrial capacity. This in fact did not happen till the closing months of the war.

"The remaining German cities are not worth the life of a single Englishman" - Bomber Harris March 1945.

Belisarius

Thats war one assumes , Whatever about German Morale I didnt Help the poor folk of Dresden . It would also be seen , from a British perspective as tit for tat for the Blitz . But If im Correct ,well Under 50,000 died in the London Bombing Campaign , Aproximately 300,000 Died in Dresden . But then History is written by the Victors , "Oh no they werent Practically Civilians.. they were practically Defenceless nazi's"

Which brings up another point about the follies of Hitler , The whole Bombing Campaign on London was utterly Ineffective it only served to Stiffen that British Upper lip in Steely resolve , It didnt concentrate on any Industrial centres , He aimed it at london in the obscure belief it would cripple the British's military capacity.....pschologically . So not only did Hitler fancy himself a great Soldier , Artist , Leader , Architecht and god knows what else , Hes also an Amateur phsychologist aswell , This resulted in the Stalling of Operation Sealion in favour of Operation Barbarossa *Big Ooops* and Crippled the Luftwaffe ,stripping it of Experienced pilots , this continued throughout the war , this Fetish for The mental Submission of a nation , notably In the Germans Visionary Rocket programs , The Minister of war Logistics at the time , Albert speer wanted to develop Small rockets for anti-aircraft defense , essentially SAMs , a good 15 years ahead of anything similar , He was voted down by hitler , favouring the Grander V1s . Maybe It would look better out of Hindsight , but FFS what a dumbass

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Shrewgar!

Yossarian

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Manach:
Robert Harris wrote an excellent book 'Fatherland' Speculative fiction in which Hitler won the war. Berlin was a shining city of marble, yet scratch the surface and the evil banality was made manifest.

On the subject of Harris (Bomber), can anyone explain the justification of Dresden. The premise behind the bomber offensive was that it would shatter German Moral & destroy their Industrial capacity. This in fact did not happen till the closing months of the war.

"The remaining German cities are not worth the life of a single Englishman" - Bomber Harris March 1945.</font>

There seems to have been little justifaction for the bombing of Dresden. The war was almost over, the german army practically defeated. The order for bombing Dresden seems to have originated with Churchill. His intention seems to have been to reduce Germanys major cities to ruins. Harris had refused to order the bombing on a number of occasions prior to 1945, but had finally relented to churchills insistance.





[This message has been edited by Yossarian (edited 25-03-2001).]

Excelsior

I have stated twice that the design of the Beetle was entirely the work of a Stutgart engineer, Dr Ferdinand Porsche.
He designed it in the early 20s. No German, French or Italian car manufacturer could recognise it potential.
Hitler did. He forced the purchase of Wolfsburg. The plant was federally funded due to his efforts.
The reason that I consider it a positive legacy is that the automobile, unlike the internet, is considered by many, the most important tool of the 20th Century. The Beetle was the car that first made automobiles available to the working classes, certianly in Europe. As a result it was pretty nifty. The Model A was the first mass produced car and you could argue that it was more influential than the Beetle but the fact remains that it was a pretty important creation and it only happened because of Hitler.
I am just stating things the way I see them here.

amp

So Hitler forced the purchase of a company and heavily subsidized it so that the German population could have an affordable car?

Ok point taken. The beetle itself then is unimportant. The concept of the affordable cars is Hitlers contribution then? But it wasn't. He saw what Ford was doing, copied it and rolled it out using a fairly old but good design from Porsche.

The fact is that the Beetle became popular because it was the first cheap car in Germany. You say yourself that Hitler bought the company and subsidies it. Did other car companies get the same treatment? Probably not. So you've got a single company manufacturing one of the only cheap cars(using a process borrowed/stolen from Ford) that is fully Nazi compatible and recommended. The German public (at the time) loves the Nazis and of course buys a load of them. The fact that it was a good design is irrelevant, it was the ONLY design. The Russians did the same with the Lada and it was hugely popular there until the fall of the U.S.S.R. when they found out that making cars out of cheap plastic maybe wasn't the best idea

So Hitlers achievements here? Forcing a monopoly on the German public? Plagarism? Unimagination? Giving Dr Ferdinand Porsche his big break?

And after a little web searching I found this link:
http://www.cmht.com/casewatch/cases/cwinfanticide.htm

"After the War, the Allies conducted an investigation of the Volkswagen Kinderheim and tried eight Volkswagen employees, including the manager of Volkswagen’s Wolfsburg factory, for war crimes. The German physician Volkswagen put in charge of its nursery, Hans Korbel, was executed in 1947 for the “killing by willful neglect” of the children at Volkswagen’s Kinderheim."

But hey does it really matter that the blood of children allegedly helped build the brilliant VW Beetle? To further your statement: Without Hitler there would be no Beetle. Without the Beetle 100's if not more children may lived and 1000's may have not been treated with immense cruelty. You can't just disconnect the fact that the man was an attrociously evil dictator with his so called achievements. You can't say that the ends justify the means.

I'll say it again. Hitler was a good propagandist (hmmm but he didn't write his own speeches, and Himler did most of the propaganda.) He was a great miltary stragegist (hmm he lost, attacked Russia, etc.) He shouted a lot at rallies (true)

Hitlers achievements then:
Shouting
Little square moustache (now sadly unfashionable)
Blaming the Jews for everything.
Getting the Germans (falsely) excited (but again that's just shouting and propaganda)

It is a credit to the Nazi party (and not just Hitler) that their sick fupped up propaganda to this day is still alive and well.


[This message has been edited by amp (edited 26-03-2001).]

Excelsior

no, we are talking about things that Hitler might have done right.

And your last post might be a damning critique of my theory, if it had any basis whatsoever.
Hitler didn't "buy" Volkswagen. His government created Volkswagen. The Volkswagen Automotive Group didn't exist before the NAZIs set it up in 1935.

It wasn't a "forced" monopoly as it wasn't in competition with anyone else through natural market forces. They didn't think that a car for the working class could take off. It was a monopoly as it was the first to fill a market niche. I think that they are considered pretty valid.
That blows your concept of this glaring obvious idea that Hitler manipulated, "Unimagination". No one else would consider it. Hitler (for all his evil,) did and was central in the creation of the car.
Other car manufacturers like Mercedes, Daimler and BMW were still producing cars. There wasn't a state enforced monopoly here at all.

And for the record, no Germans bought the cars because of a love of NAZIism.
"The German public (at the time) loves the Nazis and of course buys a load of them"
The Wolfsburg plant was only completed in the spring of 1945. The 1st thousands were used as military vehicles.
It was the Allies who followed that sold the cars.
The whole suggestion lacks any kind of historical evidence or perspective. Working class germans saved up to buy cars to please the authorities? Oh please.

The fact that VW employees committed war crimes impacts not one little bit on the fact that this is a positive legacy of Hitler. They are two seperate threads of argument entirely.

Why do you continue to chase this?

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Pretty spot-on excelsior.

There was no state-enforced monopoly by the National Socialist party. Subsidization, yes, prejudice of sales, maybe, but those both take place in the modern world economy. Far from being called unimaginative today, it is very much a stage in economic development, and helps lesser developed nations to accept free trade.

Besides, in Nazi germany, there was no *need* for a competitive market to exist. Mercedes, Daimler and BMW didn't in fact, produce cars as a primary product during WWII. If they did, who would provide the engines for the Messerchmitts(Mercedes), the Panzers(Daimler-Benz), or the U-boats(Porsche)? In fact, the only true competition Volkswagen had was Opel, who mainly produced saloons (and naval hardware), and those were aimed at a different market entirely. So...the notion that a competitive environment is best doesn't always hold true, especially when you consider that consumer cars were part of an "infant" industry at the time. Modern governments go to great lengths to protect these fledgeling industries from competition, so it's hardly fair to lambast the Nazis on *that* account.

The example of the Lada is a poor one, as it was protected from import competition *long* after it ceased to be a fledgeling creation.

As for the argument that cruel means of production should restrict choice- morally I would agree with you. It is, as Excelsior says, an entirely different argument. But just to put this in context again- how many of us have bought Nike or Reebok trainers that originated in Southeast Asian sweatshops? There is a tremendous amount of cruelty and suffering/harassment in these work environments, yet that doesn't seem to preclude us buying them. Carpets that originate in the Middle East have to be hand-woven by children who work without pay- effectively slave labor- many of whom are malnourished, and permanently scarred by such work. Yet the halls of power in Europe are adorned with such creations, happily oblivious of their sinister origin.

And don't let's forget, the benefits of these inhuman practises were passed on to the German consumer- whereas the examples I have mentioned benefit consumers in a different part of the world. Western consumers are effectively exploiting the developing world to satisfy a burgeoning demand for luxury goods. And this is happening in *peace-time*, Nazi-Germany was a nation at *war*. Extreme times called for extreme measures. Not that any of this is justified, mind you, I'm merely trying to keep things in perspective. It's too easy to slip into a mode of thinking which assumes that things have vastly improved in the last few decades, or to blame Nazi Germany even for things that were beyond their control, or absolutely necessary for them at the time. Current so-called civilized governments allow unthinkable acts of cruelty to take place in the name of production/prosperity/nationalism. So we can hardly point the finger at history as far as that is concerned.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Veni Vidi Vici=

PS- I'll start a new thread to discuss those side-arguments we were getting at in the drugs post Excel Probably be mid-week that I post it.

amp

[I was editing my previous post before I could read your reply]

Why do I keep chasing? Cos it's fun!

Yeah, the Wolfsburg Plant was completed in 1939 but didn't produce Beetles till the end of the war. Fair enough.

Interestingly this link suggests that the Beetle succeeded world-wide despite it's connections with Hitler. Intially they didn't want to touch it:

http://members.netscapeonline.co.uk/theharlocks/bug/Dissertation/History.htm

I concede the point about monopolies. Fair enough. My facts on that were wrong.But I disagree that the Germany of the time was experiencing "natural market forces". Compared to what? A democracy? The Beetle was also heavily backed as "The Peoples car"
I didn't say that the population bought the car to please the Fuhrer. I said that they bought it because he plugged it, he "advertised" it if you will.

"The fact that VW employees committed war crimes impacts not one little bit on the fact that this is a positive legacy of Hitler. They are two seperate threads of argument entirely."

Imagine this then:
So there's this fishing rod. It's the best damn fishing rod in the world. It catches fish like no other. Guaranteed. It creates a positive legacy and changes the world of fishing. It's made from the bones of kids.

How do you feel about the fishing rod now?

The ends do not justify the means.

I'm done.

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Lunacy Abounds! Play GLminesweeper!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Excelsior

I said that the Beetle "wasn't in competition with anyone else through natural market forces."
Amp writes:
"But I disagree that the Germany of the time was experiencing "natural market forces". "

That is just playing into my hands.
I agree it is fun to chase, but it isn't very challenging to be chased by you the way you are playing.

Your little analagy is ridiculous. It really is. The Beetles manufactured by people who were later convicted of war crimes, as I already stated, were used in the war effort. i.e.- no one bought them.

The Beetles people bought were built by the Royal Engineers of the British Army. Do you want to implicate them in war crimes in the Boer war in an effort to discredit my argument?

Hitler played the pivotal role in allowing the Beetle to be fully designed. He backed up the financing of the plant with his political support. He is not responsible for the war crimes of other people who were employed in a factory that wasn't managed by him but by another company entirely.
A company called VAG, that now owns Lambourghini, Audi, Skoda, Seat and VW amongst others and who was part of the huge War Time Workers settelment agreed back in 1999. See, they took responsibility for the war crimes. They didn't say "Ooh, Hitler helped the Beetle get built. Blame Hitler for this because he did many many other bad things."
He didn't advertise the car in any massive way because VW didn't have any automobiles available for sale to the general public. I think the figure is 1117 that were sold before the 3rd Reich collapsed. Comapare that to the 22 million that were later sold and you realise that that point makes no sense either.
I wrote a rather successful report on this for my Leaving Cert history. I know this topic inside out and I assure you the Beetle wouldn't have succeeded without Hitler as the Beetle wouldn't have even been built.

I am not here to argue whether the ends don't justify the means. That is the kind of philosophical debate we can get into with Bob in the future. But the fact is that unless you are an envioronmentalist who feels that the Beetle did more harm than good, it is a positive legacy that can be attributed to Hitler.
That is the subject of this thread.


Edited for spelling in the first line.

[This message has been edited by Excelsior (edited 26-03-2001).]

amp

Yeah you could say if it wasn't for Hitler then the Beetle would never have happened.

But that makes it sound like it was all his idea. That's my point. My point is that he knew that Germany needed a mass produced cheap car. That idea was not new as I argued previously. So the only thing he initiated was something that was already happening in America.

But yeah if Hitler hadn't discovered or been approached or had a competition or however the design came before him, it wouldn't have happened. But neither would it have happened without Porsche, Ford or the inventions of countless other actually talented people.

And if all we're left with of Hitlers achievements is a car he didn't design, didn't invent the method of producing it, had a negative impact on it's future marketing, and used taxpayers money to develop then hey I happily concede that too.

Well done Hitler.

Ok, one last question. Do you own a VW Beetle?

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Lunacy Abounds! Play GLminesweeper!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Clintons Cat

if hitlers greatest acheivement was providing the German working Classes with cheap affordable motorcars but only delivered 1117 before Riech Holdings PLC went belly up then i think someone should call the consummer watchdog to investigate the claim.
Oh and i found out he Nicked the Hitler Moustache off Charlie Chaplin as well...

Paladin

Now, whilst I know what you are arguing about, what the hell are you arguing about?

That Hitler did 1 redeeming act?
I have no doubt (well little doubt) that Exc and Bob's points are all correct, but I have the sentiment (not an argument, just a sentiment) similiar to Amp's, in that..

Its a car. A little sh|t ugly car imo. Peoples car? Mass produced? Wow. Had to happen. That Hitler was the fuhrer at the time is of little consequence. Eventually there had to be someone somewhere in charge or a country that produced one.

Hitler fancied himself as a technological pioneer throughout his career as fuhrer anyway. If it was new, and 'cool' he wanted it. Think of the resources he wasted trying to build some sort of 'super weapon'.
Some incredible advances were inevitably made, but that is quite simply down to the fact that a wartime drive was on to further technology.

You could just as well be arguing he was responsible for the rocket, or the jet engine. Its the same principle, in that Hitler had the "brainwave" to fund it, and it was invented during his reign. So what?

Yes Hitler was responsible for the war, but it he didnt invent anything.

Also the resources could have been better used in more conventional production, strategically speaking. As it happens, it was better he did waste the resources.

If a state funded research centre in Ireland finds a universal cure for AIDS, will Bertie be credited with it?

TwoShedsJackson

I must say i find it amazing that you can be arguing about the fu<king VW Beetle and the hand Hitler did/did not have in inventing it or producing it or whatever the fu<k.

He was a genocidal madman. It doesn't matter a damn if he had one or several 'achievements', he's among the three or four most evil men in history.

Would you get over this VW Beetle $hit for Christ's sake.

[This message has been edited by Castor Troy (edited 28-03-2001).]

Excelsior

Castor feels WE shouldn't waste OUR time chasing each other on this topic Amp.

I kind of agree.

Executive Steve

my grandmother went to germany on holidays, and she was at the nuremberg rally. she hadn't a clu what wee adolf was shouting about, but she said it was the greatest show on earth and blew her mind. nothing like it had ever been seen or done before in terms of stage design and lighting... to this day speer's cathedral of ice as i think it wsa called is still possibly the the best set design for an open air gig ever.
some good books to read.
albert speer's diary - perhaps a little bit sanitized in order to distance the author fom the fact that he was the guy who effectively ran the industrial process in the reich. in 41, me 109's were built at a rate of 150-200 a month. when speer took over in 44 he pumped up production to 2500 a month.

anything by primo levi - italian industrial chemist who survived auschwitz having been a slave for the i g farben plant the drowned and the saved, if this is a man and the other ones who's names i've forgottten are all excellent accounts of life after and during the war. levi hung himself in the mid eighties because he found it impossible to forgive the germans their deeds, a correspondence with several german war time scientists and officials is published in one of his books.
my own grand mother [the other one] as well as all the rest of her family and my grand father were all in japanese prisoner of war camps, and from accounts i have read and heard about the burma railroad project i can't decide which was worse. in germny jews were literally subhumans by birth, and had to be eradicated. in japan the prisoners obviously were undeserving of life/good treatment because they had allowed themselves to be captured. whether a calculated attempt to kill millions or a cultural disregard for "honourless foreign devils" and indifferent treatment of them is worse is up for debate. were the japanese or the germans or the russians worse in ther actions and crimes?

Belisarius

Intresting point , no matter what you can say about the Nazis , they knew how to put on a show ...If memory serves me right , Nazi Germany had a Monument to those who died in the Bier Hall Putsch...Generally Infantry units would Form around it , at which point Someone would call out the names of those who died , The Nazis had it set up that From within the ranks of the soldiers theyred be some chap who would reply "Present" . It may seem a little corny , but back then Peeps lapped up that Quasi Mystical Aspect of the Nazi Culture that was well in implementation in Germany at that time .

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Shrewgar!

amp

Settle ct settle Throughout my arguments I've always emphasized the dark side of any "achievements" Hitler made. I also said that you can't seperate them from the horrifying treatment that most companies of Germany of the time were imposing on their government provided free/cheap forced labour.
I even tried to divert the debate by stating that the Beetle was irrelevant, how it was produced was far more important. Sure didn't I even say Fu<k Hitler!?

In short, WAAAA!! IT WASN'T ME, IT WAS HIM!!
*points at Excelsior* :P

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Lunacy Abounds! Play GLminesweeper!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

WhiteWashMan

there was always the vw b****e....

Stop that you

[This message has been edited by Castor Troy (edited 03-04-2001).]