Hitler was grate!

DadaKopf · 21-03-2001 11:41pm #1

discuss.

Clintons Cat · 21-03-2001 11:45pm

well he made the trains run on time,
no wait that was mussolini,
i give up

neuro-praxis · 22-03-2001 12:07am

Was that supposed to controversial?

Do you mean grate like grated cheese? Mmmm. Tasty cheese. Excuse me. My perplexity has left me and been replaced by toasty sandwich urges.

Bah.

Belisarius · 22-03-2001 12:09am

Certainly eyecatching Koph , and we'll pass "grate" off as a pun , without too many questions

Ehh well the Main good thing you could point out is his Economic miracle of Dragging Germany as a nation on the point collapse after WW1 and Versailles . Not only did he kick the economy into gear traditionally , he also spearheaded Modern Infrastucture in Europe , The autobahns for example . Of course the remenants of the Industrial powerhouse still lives on today In incarnations like the Volswagen Group . Militarily he effected somewhat of a revolution in Tactics , Giving the world a wake-up in reguards to tank-warfare at the expense of Poland and France . I could go on but in the end Hitler wasnt actually very effective leader . Through his Interfereance and meddling he essentially ended his own riech *both in Peace and wartime*, undermining the work of His People . Germany at the Time had the makings of a new renaissance in Science and Engineering if it were not for National Socialism . The People who showed greatness were undermined by Die Furhers self image as a "jack of all trades" Oh right ..Rockets aswell , as the fellah said
"Russian space ships , American spaceships , theyre made by Germans"

Shrewgar!

Zapper · 22-03-2001 12:24am

Originally posted by Belisarius:
Ehh well the Main good thing you could point out is his Economic miracle of Dragging Germany as a nation on the point collapse after WW1 and Versailles . Not only did he kick the economy into gear traditionally......

Yeah, i could do that too if i dismissed a few million of the population as "sub-human" and therefor not counting towards any kind of statitic. The jews were deemed non-citizens, sacked from high-profile jobs -opening up millions for unemployed "ayrian" germans and were not allowed welfare - saving the government a bit too. Sadly even taking this into account and a fact that is very rarley mentioned - Germany was on the brink of financial disatster when the war ended - They could not keep up teh cost of fighting a war.

Blitzkrieger · 22-03-2001 12:32am

Originally posted by Zapper:
They could not keep up the cost of

of losing the war...

By all accounts Hitler was an idiot who was good at public speaking (sorta like Steve Jobs). Most of his high-level staff were too. Often it was the more junior people in the reich who actually did things well. I'm over simplifying again but he was just a lucky half-wit, helped by the fact that the allies made crap decisions too.

Belisarius · 22-03-2001 12:41am

Also , I think youve over stated the numbers there , also most of the Jewish population would be self employed or employed within Jewish Businesses *not all , but a considerable portion* So really they werent opening up that many jobs , As for no social welfare . That was something of a Privilage back then , Considering the economic state of the Nation , Its a credit to Nazi economic policy anyone got it , And the German economic recovery started very early in the Thirties , before Anti-Zionic policies were widespread. And hell Jews were only about 5% of German population , theyd have to be a Big Ass Minority to Kickstart the German Industry , and Oh yeah as Blitz stated , the reason German economy was "Kaput" *note the German there , not too shabby* Was because it was physically destroyed .Blitz also noted the Incompetance of High ranking officials *Prominant NASDAP members with little qualification* The Middle management was truly Brillaint *The Civil Servant Albert Speer for example*

Shrewgar!

Zapper · 22-03-2001 12:52am

Indeed, and all good an valid points yeah, i suppose i did over exaggerate the figures a bit - my point was however that all was not as rosey in the 3rd reich as it seemed. But TBH i feel that if were not for the italians switching sides, the war would have perhaps had a different outcome.

Call Hitler what you will how-ever, he was incredibly good at manipulating the public. Although a range of factors actually got him elected chancellor of the weimar republic - it was teh nazi propoganda machine which was the main driving force - and a force which is still in force in some peoples minds today.

|Course..all this didnt stop Hitler from being a vegatarian who liked cream buns

- weirdo

Belisarius · 22-03-2001 1:03am

True , The Opening of the Italian front was a major point in the war , but I dont think Germany would ever have overcome the USSR , even without the Normandy and Italian fronts to worry about aswell , Its a commonly held Misconception that "The allies Defeated Germany" , Truthfully It was the lives of 20million+ Russians

Shrewgar!

Belisarius · 22-03-2001 1:06am

Disturbing fact , Since the end of WW2 , Adolf Hitler has been the most documented man in the World , voyeuristic quirk ,or sub-concious empathy?

Shrewgar!

Clintons Cat · 22-03-2001 4:33am

Originally posted by Belisarius:
Disturbing fact , Since the end of WW2 , Adolf Hitler has been the most documented man in the World , voyeuristic quirk ,or sub-concious empathy?

i put it down to a universal couriousity/fetish for small oily men with uniforms and bizzarre moustaches.

the fnj · 22-03-2001 10:18am

Originally posted by Belisarius:
Militarily he effected somewhat of a revolution in Tactics , Giving the world a wake-up in reguards to tank-warfare at the expense of Poland and France .

Hitler was a very bad military tactician. When he let his generals run the military drive they won on every front. They had control of mainland europe and england was on it's knees. Hitler then decided to have a go at this tactic's lark. Reduces the campaign on britian and decides to break is threaty with Stalin and attacks Russia.

It is true the allies did not win the war Hitler lost it.

Clan Acid

Yossarian · 22-03-2001 11:38am

Originally posted by The FANJ:
Hitler was a very bad military tactician. When he let his generals run the military drive they won on every front. They had control of mainland europe and england was on it's knees. Hitler then decided to have a go at this tactic's lark. Reduces the campaign on britian and decides to break is threaty with Stalin and attacks Russia.

It is true the allies did not win the war Hitler lost it.

The mistake was starting the war. The german army and economy were not prepared for war, towards the end of operation Barbarossa german industry was told to scale back production as the war would shortly be over!
The army on the western fron faced a severe ammunition shortage at the time it was supposed to be invading France. The german high command (OKH) attempted to persuade the leadership against an attack on the west. When this failed, they started planning for the attack against the west (1940). The resulting plan was merley a rehash of the Schliefen plan with the inherant problem of lacking an objective.
It has been noted that by starting the war the fundementals of Von Clausewitz teachings had been ignored. There was no clear objective, just attempts at grabing patches of land when oportunities arose.

As for Hitler revolutionizing military tactics with tank warefare, this is false. The men most responsible for that are Heinz Guderian and Eric von Manstein. Guderian developed how tanks should be used as part of a fully mobilized and mixed force.

Examples of Hitlers medaling would include the halt order issued to the panzer divisions closing on the trapped BEF at Dunkirk, thus allowing them time to be evacuated. The diversion of the panzer forces away from the Moscow axis of attack in support of pointless attacks to the south, directly resulted in the failure to take Moscow. The original plan for the summer offensive in 1942 envisaged a strike in the south as far east as the volga. German forces were not to attempt to take Stalingrad as this would tie down the bulk of the german forces in city fighting. As the German army neared Stalingrad Hitler ordered the city captured. This resulted in the bulk of the german forces being tied down in city fighting. His refusal to allow the 6th army to withdraw from Stalingrad resulted in it being destroyed. And again in 1943 his insistance on the Kursk salient being taken resulted in the bulk of thre german tank forces being destroyed in action against a well prepared soviet defences.
His dismissal of Soviet military buildup on the eastern front in 1945, 6 million men, as Phantom armies!
There are many more examples of sheer incompitance.

One other is his practice of building resentment between different government and military departments, each struggling sagainst the other for there own political gain.

He also ignored the advice of his professional army commanders. When the Allies had broken out of there beachhead in Normandy, von Runstedt was asked what to do next, he replied "Make peace you fools!".
Needless to say he was dismissed.

[This message has been edited by Yossarian (edited 22-03-2001).]

Yossarian · 22-03-2001 2:53pm

Originally posted by Excelsior:

"The NAZIs did fine under their generals and lost the war under their leader."

I suspect if it had been left to the General Staff and OKH there would not have been a war in 1939. They were convinced that the Armed forces were totally unprepared for it.

"In our striving for good we are willing to compromise ourselves with the greatest evil."

Joseph Stalin?
Im reminded of Churchills comment in the commons about becoming allies with Stalin, "
If Hitler invaded hell i would allie with the devil".

"Hitler wasn't all bad."

Yes he was.
(presuming you mean Bad as in evil, and not bad as in incompetant)
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[This message has been edited by Yossarian (edited 22-03-2001).]

--Kaiser-- · 22-03-2001 3:54pm

excelsior:

are you saying that dropping a nuclear bomb on hiroshima amd nagasaki was GOOD?

I dont believe there was any justification for killing those millions of people

Draco · 22-03-2001 3:56pm

Originally posted by Zapper:
Germany was on the brink of financial disatster when the war ended - They could not keep up teh cost of fighting a war.

And so was everyone else except for the Americans. Wars are hidiously expensive to wage - and the Germans had been fighting for 6 odd years at this stage.

TwoShedsJackson · 22-03-2001 3:58pm

Originally posted by --Kaiser--:
excelsior:

are you saying that dropping a nuclear bomb on hiroshima amd nagasaki was GOOD?

I dont believe there was any justification for killing those millions of people

Kaiser - the total amount of people killed in the two atomic bomb explosions was around 140,000 with probably some tens of thousands more dying from cancers etc. in successive generations.

Compare this with that the US Joint Chiefs of Staff estimated would be up to two million dead if the US had had to launch a full scale land invasion of Japan to force her to surrender.

--Kaiser-- · 22-03-2001 4:33pm

are you sure?

/me slaps self on wrist

OK, i didnt have the facts right, but i still think that was appalling.

Excelsior · 22-03-2001 6:22pm

Kaiser, I meant, as anyone with a knowledge of history could probably surmise, that although the dropping of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs prevented far more carnage, far more death and a much longer, extended surrender in the Far East, it was still a moment of extreme evil.
That is my point. I move into the area of opinion when I claim it to be the defining moment of humanity's existence. We aim to do good, (even Hitler THOUGHT he was doing good) but we perpertrate the greatest evils in search of it.
Re-read my post people. Hitler is the most disgusting character I have ever come across. I am sickened by what he did.
I write "Hitler wasn't all bad."
and then qualify it by saying "But only really inasmuch as someone in power for that long with that much resource at his fingers can't but succeed with some things."
That is in response to the apparent revisionism of history that Belisarius has provided us. Any of the (and the economy and his ability to fight wars do not come under the following heading) "good-points" of his regime seem to me to be default. You can't fail at EVERYTHING if you stay in ultimate power for 12 years.

And his motorways were the first Castor. They were kind of ever so slightly useful to Germany in their recovery.

It might be emotionally pleasing, and in a way, very right to say that based on the truly dispicable acts of Hitler and his government we can declare him totally all bad, but that isn't just or accurate.
My point is that even his "achievements" are tinged with a sort of pathetic nature.
Ultimately, in response to Kopf's topic, he was the opposite of great.

Coyote · 22-03-2001 6:35pm

It's not the number of people that were killed in the bomb it was the becose if was one bomb doing it, As a point more people were killed in the fire bombing of Tokyo city (city was made of wood) in one night by the US air force that in the 2 atomic bombs

Coyote

GreenHell · 22-03-2001 7:36pm

Mussolini build the autostrada before hitler.

Hitler was not a tacticon he was a politican thats why he order attacks on Stalingrad instead of going for the oil.

Or instead of telling Rommel to retreat which he did neway he told him "victory or death".

Hitler was a dumbass when you look at the last stages of the war. His perparations before d-day where laughable and his decision to hold onto the north of italy was foolish. So from a military point of view Hitler deserves the title Gob****e.

Although the blitzKrieg tactic was Superb when you look at the german economy every thing was gear to sudden burst on production in one area and then switched to another.

Of course no one can ever say hitler was a nice guy anyone who brings around the deaths of 6 million jews is a scumbag.

Belisarius · 22-03-2001 8:20pm

Err ya , I seem not to be expressing myself Properly.When I say "Hitler" I mean Germany under the leadership of Hitler , It would be Naieve to believe Hitler ran Germany all by himself , In fact he did very little actual Administration ,Concerning himself with more Grandiose pursuits as Architechture .Also I think I said Hitler wasnt much of a General , and that his Interfereance inevitable ended in Disaster . As for the development of Tank warfare , true Hitler didnt Invent it , but he did take have some forsight by Indulging his General at what must have been a very risky decision at the time. and As for the economic Counter-argument . No matter how many signs of rebuilding it showed it was reguardless a Boom of Leviathan proportions to Propel Germany from a sub-anarchic mess to one of the Powerhouses of Europe . Yeah anyone could build motorways , but I defy you to find any in france dating before the 40s , 50s proabably. The Beetle thing , I dont believe he Actually made the beetle , But the National Socialists did create *or at least the appearance of* Social upheaval ,the Atmosphere in which most great Ideas occur , To this we have the Germans under Nazism , Result : The proletarian Motor car

. And again the German Economic Miracle cannot be directly attributed to the Marginalisation of the Jewish population of Germany , For the simple fact that Most of marginalisation occured well after Germany started to boom , that is to say Economic sanctions .and Even so due to the nature of the Jewish in Germany before the War ,it would have mainly served to destroy traditional Jewish businesses , not replacing them with ethnic German mirrors. And bye the Way yes you did overstate the facts ,as Caster pointed out they were just under 1% of the population , hardly enough to carry the Economic recovery of a nation Hmmn?

And as for spouting claptrap? Whats all this about Hiroshima being the Defining moment of Humanity? Forget about wheel the printing press , the steam engine , Lets go make an expression of the Human race by "Nukin some Japs, Yeehaw" . Yes thats quite true Excelsior , Im the one spouting Claptrap *note the sarcasm in my....type*

Although...In retrospect , You proabably have the Right Idea about Hiroshima ,And its truly bloody Scary

Shrewgar!

Zapper · 23-03-2001 12:45am

Yeah Castor, sorry every1. Hitelr was of course NEVER "elected" chancellor by the german peeps and in fact, if i remember things correctly, his popularity was on the decline when he became chancellor. It was of course only with this co-allition that he assumed power. Sorry

been a few years since i studied this

Excelsior · 23-03-2001 1:35am

"And the German economic recovery started very early in the Thirties" -Belisarius

Actually, it was improving in the 6-10 months before he came to power. It wasn't his economic miracle. It was all built on propaganda, hope and a huge amount of luck. Putting your people to work on building roads might kickstart an economy, but a full, stable economy it does not make. And the fact of the matter is that Germany concerned itself with employing its people in state works.
As far as your comments about Jewish people and their employment histories are concerned you miss a vital point. Hitler not only sacked the Jews from the Civil Service (who gives a fu<k how many there were, it is inherently disgusting) he forced millions of people to lose their livelihoods (and I am not over estimating my numbers) when he cracked down on Jewish owned business.

The suggestion that he was in any way gifted in the field of military tactics deserves to be laughed at. That is an appaling mistruth. The NAZIs did fine under their generals and lost the war under their leader.

In fact, his only positive legacy for me is his Autobahns. But a more stringent envioronmentalist would disagree seeing as they were hardly planned with the symbiosis of Germany's envioronment in mind.
That and his role in the development of the Beetle, which was a clever idea that was geniusly implemented by Ferdinand Porsche.

The reason Hitler fascinates us is not subconcious empathy or any such revisionist claptrap (and this is truly what has been uttered here). The reason is that WWII is the defining period of humanity. It demonstrates that we will go to any lengths for prejudice and greed, kill 6 million here, send 20 million to their deaths there, and that we will find it easy to dehumanise an enemy. I would argue in fact, that the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima, "to finally end" what Hitler began, is the defining moment, instant, second of our race. In our striving for good we are willing to compromise ourselves with the greatest evil.

Hitler wasn't all bad. But only really inasmuch as someone in power for that long with that much resource at his fingers can't but succeed with some things.

TwoShedsJackson · 23-03-2001 1:47am

'Hitler wasn't all bad'. You what!?

Anyone who would attempt to exterminate a section of human society based on their race, sexual orientation, mental disabilities and numerous other grounds - it doesn't matter if he had any good in him.

As for his 'positive legacy' being the autobahns - please, anyone can build a bunch of motorways.

As a military tactician he was a joke, and it's very fortunate for us that he was or the world could be pretty different today. Obsession with destroying the Bolshevist menace led him to invade Russia in 1941, it made no military sense whatsoever.

Zapper - Hitler was never elected Chancellor by the German people, in fact the Nazi's never got a clear majority in an election, I beleive they got around 47% in 1930 - Hitler became Chancellor through political dealings when a coalition between the NSDAP and the ruling party under Kurt von Schleicher was arranged to try and keep the Communist menace at bay.

Belisarius - there were 700,000 Jews in Germany in 1933, comprising only .9% of the aprroximate 70 million population. The majority of Jews killed by the Nazis were in Poland (around 2,000,000) and the Baltic States (another 1,000,000 or so)

amp · 23-03-2001 4:11am

Having visited the German Concentration camp Auchwitz Museum I can also say that without Hitler we wouldn't have as much information about how humans brains explode in a vacuum, how the human body reacts to extreme cold/heat, the most efficient yet most painfull way to gass someone and many other vital facts.
I'm sure all the "volunteers" who took part in these "experiments" appreciated giving their lives as well as all their property (right down to the gold fillings in their teeth) to aid the Third Reich's progress.

Germany then (as it does to day) had a large population, huge natural resources like coal/steel and a massive agriculture. Thorughout history it was always a major power. It wasn't hard for Hitler to turn Germany around from the depression it was in, especially by boosting war equipment manufacturing and public works.
Imported goods were reduced thus lessening the competition for indigenous industries.

He boosted public confidence by blaming Germanys problems on other countries and the Jewish population. So probably the only thing he was ever good at was instilling hatred en mass.

In short, Fu<k Hitler.

Lunacy Abounds! Play GLminesweeper!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Yossarian · 23-03-2001 10:08am

Originally posted by Coyote:
It's not the number of people that were killed in the bomb it was the becose if was one bomb doing it, As a point more people were killed in the fire bombing of Tokyo city (city was made of wood) in one night by the US air force that in the 2 atomic bombs

Coyote

Due to the long distances American Bombers had to fly and the low payload they could carry, They could not ensure destruction of Tokyos industrial zones and shipyards. It was decided to target the residential zones with incenderies and napalm. Most of these house were made of wood and were quickly consumed by the firestorm, (wall of flames traveling at 100mph). After all, what use is
a shipyard if all the workers have been incinerated?

Excelsior · 23-03-2001 12:26pm

I totally agree with Amp here. Though I wouldn't have written the last line the same way.

I never stated that the Jewish economic sanctions (if we will call them that) contributed in any way to the German economic recovery (not miracle). In fact, that kind of upheaval isn't the kind of thing an economy desires. And millions were displaced by these sanctions. Amazingly enough, the Jewish business owners employed people. Those employers were not all Jewish. As a result millions were affected.
Germany, as Amp pointed out, was capable of recovering. It would have happened in the 30s regardless of NAZIism. Hitler's government just affected the magnitude of such a recovery. It affected it with shallow, temporary and propagandistic attempts at full employment. Building roads does not an economy make. When you have built all your roads you are left in as bad a position as when you began. Hitler didn't get a chance to finish his roads.
Then Belisarius misunderstands my Hiroshima statements. Its quite simple really. The printing press and the wheel might make us feel good about ourselves, but Hitler, and the 30s and 40s, finishing with the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, show us that we in fact, use our gifts, our ingenuity, for the greatest of evils. I state again as I did before, that Hiroshima statement is an opinion.
I don't pass it off as a historical fact.

History deserves honesty. And in honesty, Hitler is the most appalling character in history. But to be fully truthful, and as we are discussing how great he is, he did achieve some things. (The Beetle came about as a result of his backing of Dr Ferdinand Porsche by the way) The thing I have to say is that anyone in complete control of a country the size of Germany for 12 years can't fail at everything.

Hobbes · 23-03-2001 3:26pm

Originally posted by Yossarian:
*snip*

Also they only had what? 3 bombs tops and no easy way to make another any time soon. The bombs were dropped to get a point across that they could do it to the rest of the country (when they couldn't).

Or to put it better. Japan would not of given in. They would of fought to the last person all the way to Toyko and even afterwards. When faced with the possible extinction of your race they were pretty much demoralised. If they had known the US were bluffing about the rest of the bombs they might not of given up so quickly.

[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited 23-03-2001).]

amp · 24-03-2001 5:54pm

Oh cool, yeah, what a great invention the VW Beetle was! Wow! Without that we wouldn't have the classic film "Herbie goes bananas"

Yes indeed, when we look back on the 20th century the VW Beetle will be recognised as one of the great accomplishments up there with the telephone and the internet.

It's a car, four wheels and a front mounted engine. It sold pretty well. Anyone like to explain how that furthered the progress of mankind?

Now, I don't know if VW were involved with this kind of thing but a lot of the big German companies of the time were provided with slave labour by the German authorities. Even IBM are currently in trouble over selling equipment allegedly used to count the concentration camp population.

Another myth about Germany of the time was that it was some form of model economy or ordered structure. Couldn't be further from the truth. Germany was ruled internally in zones mostly jumped up mini-fuhrers and corruption was rife. And I don't mean the type corruption we're currently hearing about in our own tribunals. I'm talking the state handing out monopolys to companies who kick-backed large sums of deutchmarks.

Hitler didn't design the beetle or invent the mass production of cars, nor did he invent the motorway. Yes these things happened while he was in power but saying they were his accomplishments is a bit silly imho.

Is the American President who was in power when Henry Ford developed mass production remembered? Not to my mind.

Anybody here really think Bertie Ahern is personaly responsible for the Celtic Tiger?

Think about it.

Lunacy Abounds! Play GLminesweeper!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Yossarian · 24-03-2001 6:25pm

Originally posted by amp:
Oh cool, yeah, what a great invention the VW Beetle was! Wow! Without that we wouldn't have the classic film "Herbie goes bananas"

Aint it ironic, the symbol of hippie flower power was also the a symbol of National Socialism in all its glory (sarcasm).

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Hitler was grate!

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