Ethically Thinking

Keeks

You've probably seen this b4 but;


TWO ETHICAL QUESTIONS TO PONDER

Q1: If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who already had 8 kids, three
who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis;
would you recommend that she have an abortion?

Read the next question before scrolling down to the answer of this one.

Q2: It is time to elect the world leader and your vote counts.

Here are the facts about the three leading candidates:

Candidate A:
1. Associates with crooked politicians and consults with astrologists.
2. He's had two mistresses.
3. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.

Candidate B:
1. He has been kicked out of office twice.
2. He sleeps until noon.
3. He used opium in college.
4. He drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.

Candidate C:
1. He is a decorated war hero.
2. He's also a vegetarian.
3. He doesn't smoke.
4. He drinks only an occasional beer.
5. He hasn't had any extramarital affairs.

Which of these candidates would be your first choice?

Decide first, no peeking, then scroll down for the answers.
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Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt
Candidate B is Winston Churchill
Canididate C is Adolf Hitler
and by the way:
If you answered yes to the abortion
question, you just killed Beethoven.
Interesting, isn't it?


[This message has been edited by Keeks (edited 06-03-2001).]

Clintons Cat

Well the second question,shows the value of a Good CV.

Paladin

Beethoven:
All your symphonies are belong to us!!!

--Kaiser--

Very good, but i don't like the way it presented Winston Churchill as a 'good' world leader,God i hate that fat fu<k!

Hobbes

Actually Adolf Hitler did have a mistress (at least one I remember).

TwoShedsJackson

Hitler did not drink the 'occasional beer'. He was teetotal.

Whilst it's true he did not have any extra marital affairs in that he only married Eva Braun the evening they killed themselves on 30 April 1945, he was implicated in the suicide of his 13 year old niece Geli Raubal.

There's quite a bit of documented evidence that he had a sexual affair with her and had some hired goons cover up her 'suicide' which was under most supicious circumstances.

Bard

B4: Present tense? No he doesn't. He's dead.

C1: I'd hardly call HIM a "hero"!

--Kaiser--

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bard:

C1: I'd hardly call HIM a "hero"!</font>

I think you misunderstood, it said 'war hero', which means he was given a medal for his bravery in combat during World War 1, which is a fact wether you like it or not.

neuro-praxis

Keeks.
Most interesting thread in ages, methinks.

My answers were (1) no, and (2)actually, B, Churchill, because he seemed pretty human and less dictator-like in his habits.

I read a book of speculation and gathered evidence about the realtionship between Geli and Hitler. Really interesting stuff, I am darned if I can remember its name though.

Also, ever seen the book "Moral of the Story"? I think it's on a college syllabus but it's available from many bookstores. It's broad, but brilliant, and filled with really thought provoking ethical questions. You might like it.

---

Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Manach

Re: Q2 if WWII had gone the other way, it would be case of C, or else. Therefore does that mean ethics are just based on which ever side won the most battles or is there a universal rulebook? Answers on the back of a cornflake box to the usual address.

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fair is the prize and the hope is great

Lenny

that's good I liked that

Kali

I thought Hitler died by popping pills?

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Manach:
Re: Q2 if WWII had gone the other way, it would be case of C, or else. Therefore does that mean ethics are just based on which ever side won the most battles or is there a universal rulebook?
</font>

A general rule might be that the more ethical person is probably not someone who advocated the extermination of a whole race.

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Castor Troy:
.There's quite a bit of documented evidence that he had a sexual affair with her(his niece).</font>

indeed.His own sexual habits have come under some intense scrutiny .Apparently he also liked to be kicked by women,and p|ssed on. Also was rumoured to be freakishly underdeveoped.not that this would make him a worse person in itself, if he wanted to get p|ssed on then thats fine,but as for having sex with his underage niece,well obviously thats not fine at all.His parents were also cousins, obviously this was seen as the ultimate in racial purity .
The problem with these questions is that they are phrased very selectively.Its deliberately misleading.Add in "Had freakish sexual habits", or "Believed in racial purity" to C's description and see how many peoples choice he'd be then.

azezil

lol very good!

Excelsior

i had no opinion on either three because you failed to supply rather neccesarry points for me and politicians:

oratorical skill
where he stands on issues (abortion, 3rd world poverty, envioronment, social spending, military spending etc)
his/her education

in the first one i didn't kill beethoven.

TwoShedsJackson

Well Hitler was one of the most compelling orators in history..... You can't really fault him on military spending either

Excelsior

by military spending, as castor troy copped on to, i clearly meant that i vote for the man who spends the most on guns.

Lucy_la_morte

Beethoven is already dead.... (nevermind it's bad humour).

I chose yes to the first and B on the second question.

Beethoven was an overated musician (or dog), the world can do without him.

Churchill seemed like a fun guy instead of the politician geek he was made out to be.

---

J'ai dormi sous l'eau.

Lucy la morte.

Winning Hand

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lucy_la_morte:

Churchill seemed like a fun guy instead of the politician geek he was made out to be.
</font>

A fun guy????????????????? lol, after Oliver Cromwell, Churchill is the biggest enemy to the irish people since sliced bread.
He wasnt a politician, he was a brave SOB who knew enough to incite bravery in others to beat the nazis.

[This message has been edited by Winning Hand (edited 14-03-2001).]

Lucy_la_morte

My nationality is French, so he is allowed to seem like a fun guy to me.

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J'ai dormi sous l'eau.

Lucy la morte.

[This message has been edited by Lucy_la_morte (edited 14-03-2001).]

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Winning Hand:
Churchill is the biggest enemy to the irish people since sliced bread.</font>

erm are you sure? how about lloyd George and Baldwins policies i think they come higher up the list of anti irish british prime ministers,not really sure what your beef is with Chuchill though.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Sheesh I didn't even know that the English
had "beef" back in those days. Anyway if
we r looking for the english man that did the most damage ya gotta go back to Cromwell.

---

You never expect the Beefy Inquisition !!!

TwoShedsJackson

--Kaiser--

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lucy_la_morte:

Beethoven was an overated musician (or dog), the world can do without him.

</font>

yeah, i'm sure you have heard a whole lot of beethovens work..

Beethoven was one of the most influential musicians ever, without him, music today would not be the same

And the award for the most ignorant comment of the day gos to...

Excelsior

i'd wager that award goes to you Kaiser.

not least because Lucy made that comment yesterday.

but primarilly because she shared her opinion on a musician. music is relative.
she dislikes Beethoven. big deal.

the major ignorance here is in your presumption that a very advanced, intelligent girl like Lucy might not have heard Beethoven's work.

Lucy: I respect your opinion and feel no need to demean it.

--Kaiser--

She didn't say she didn't like Beethoven, she said he was 'overrated',
i don't have a problem with anyone disliking his music but i would think any true music lover would see the influence he has had on music.

Paladin

I thought she was trying to be funny. Remember those godawful films with the dog??
*shudder*

darthmise

Relax excelsior!

neuro-praxis

Darthmise, why didn't you post to tell Kaiser to relax? He was the one picking a fight...Excelsior just stuck up for Lucy.

I think Shakespeare is overrated and currently irrelevant. In fact, I might almost say I hate his work.

That said, there is nothing in my statement that implies that I deny the influence he has had on worldwide literature. Neither do I deny his worth.

Also, man, do I hate Francis Bacon - I think his stuff is pretentious and talentless. He's pretty darned popular too though.

And Lucy is 14. I think she is extremely eloquent and frankly rather brave, to come into this place and air her views.

GO LUCY!

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Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Lucy_la_morte

What make's today's music so important? If Beethoven was so influential then wouldn't it be interesting to see what music would be like without him ever existing today?

As for people actually sticking up for me.. Erh? That doesn't normally happen.. *looks suspicious*...*hides*.

---

J'ai dormi sous l'eau.

Lucy la morte.

darthmise

Thats nice neuro but it just seems like yourself and excelsior have gotten a bit defensive since the drugs thread.

And Shakespeare irrelevant?!?
How can you say that. Maybe you don't like him fair enough, but irrelevant?
The man knew how to tell a great story. That kind of gift is timeless!

Winning Hand

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by neuro-praxis:
I think Shakespeare is overrated ......
That said, there is nothing in my statement that implies that I deny the influence he has had on worldwide literature. Neither do I deny his worth.
</font>

Ummm...................................


Anyway referring back to Winston Churchill, it was his idea for the so-called "authorised" reprisals carried out during the war of independance and I'm not exactly sure if he didnt have a part to play in the black and tans and auxillaries coming over here.

As for lucy airing her views i would like to commend the following people on their bravery to post on an anynominous bulletin boards
Keeks
Clintons Cat
Paladin
--Kaiser--
Hobbes
Castor Troy
Bard
Manach
neuro-praxis
OJ
Kali
bugler
azezil
Excelsior
Lucy_la_morte
Thanx 4 The Fish
darthmise
and everyone else who has brought up the courage to comment on this topic and many others "Keep It Real"

neuro-praxis

I am as happy as a pig in muck - and not feeling in the least defensive. If you can offer some examples, I will humbly step aside, old Darthy.

According to my notes on Shakespeare, he simply wrote down the common tales of his era. I didn't deny his talent, Darth. But I would not call Shakespeare timeless, in any way.

neuro-praxis

Just read Winning Hand's post.

The reason I think Lucy is brave is because girls get such a hard time here. Not from everybody, but a lot - purely because we are female. So there.

amp

There are girls here? AAAHHHH!!! *hides*

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Lunacy Abounds! Play GLminesweeper!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Thanx 4 The Fish

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lucy_la_morte:
What make's today's music so important? If Beethoven was so influential then wouldn't it be interesting to see what music would be like without him ever existing today?
</font>

Well that is a fairly safe argument to make
for a start since it is unlikely we are ever
gonna be able to do that. Unless of course
in a bid to dig you out again Excelsior
builds a time machine and goes back and
assassinates him.

Likely, I think not.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by neuro-praxis:
I think Shakespeare is overrated and currently irrelevant. In fact, I might almost say I hate his work. </font>

Would like you to give reasons why Shakespeare
is irrelevant, it would be nice just once for
you to put some substance in your arguments
rather than just throw out a few fractious
comments and then retreat behind Excelsior.

Have said what I wanted to say, am ready for that
flaming now Exc.

Well said darthmise & Kaiser
Somebody has to put these girls in their place

---

You never expect the Beefy Inquisition !!!

[This message has been edited by Thanx 4 The Fish (edited 15-03-2001).]

Excelsior

my God, do i not flame.

fu<king girls. coming into our bulletin boards, originally set up for quake, quake no less, the game of men and sweat and perspiration and men, and spreading their disgusting "opinions" about Beethoven and Shakespeare and drugs and no doubt, pretty soon, cosmetics too.

i hate them too. sometimes i hate them with a bile that frankly ewven scares me, the most self righteous, bile filled flamer of a bas.tard you could ever imagine.
and i forgot narrow minded and sheltered.

sheltered behind my books.
that were written by men.

--Kaiser--

LOL winning hand!

Since when is expressing an opinion 'picking a fight'?
I disagree with lucy's statement about beethoven, and now also with neuro's statement about shakespeare.

I agree with darthmise and think excelsior and neuro are acting very defensive, why not stop the irrelevent flaming?

I would like to hear neuro's and lucy's reasons why they think Beethoven and Shakespeare are 'irrelevant' and 'overrated'.

And i am offended at being called sexist, neuro's and lucy's sex have nothing to do with me disagreeing with them.

Excelsior

i called no one sexist. i just declared my sexism. don't get too defensive.

now back to lab. i have some reactionary opinions i have to finish off.

(the lunacy of this thread's manipulation by our petty fight does not escape me)

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> i would like to commend the following people on their bravery to post on an anynominous bulletin boards:
bugler
</font>

Excellent!
The problem here ladies and gentlemen,is that when you use the old "everyone is entitled to their opinion" line it gives free reign for all sorts of muppetry.Nothing is sacred,not that im sure anything should be,but it allows me(as an ignorant,arrogant fool) to say : "Hitler was great,i agree with everything he believed and disseminated.Pity Germany didn't win the second world war."
Easy now.....i'm entitled to my opinion...
ok so its a bit more serious than making a less than flattering remark about a musician/composer, but essentially its the same principle.
Some opinions are just plain awful
like anyone who says that "whipping boy" aren't the greatest irish band ever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idiots

TwoShedsJackson

Whipping Boy are a load of $hite.

Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone's got one.

Excelsior

Castor is right.
That band are just appalling.

Excelsior

In my opinion.

bugler

no, you two are quite correct and i am obviously wrong. i am now going to flagellate myself in public on o'connell street.

[This message has been edited by Castor Troy (edited 16-03-2001).]

bugler

Thats just my opinion,by the way.
/me senses post is in danger of being hijacked,and taken to the trolls board

darthmise

Whipping boy?!?

*ahem* What about the The Frames?
Best live band ever!

ethically thinking anyway

bugler

Yeah i'm a fan of the frames,in an ethical sense,but they don't quite come close to the WB.

neuro-praxis

[sarcasm] Right, I now demand that anybody who has ever stated an opinion in this forum must immediately return to justify it utterly, in extreme detail, especially Castor and Excel with their outrageous opinions of disliking a band. Come back right now and give lengthy reasons for this.[/sarcasm]

Thanks 4 the fish, kindly back up your comment of how I retreat behind Excelsior.

You are, of course, referring to the drugs thread, where I dared offer an opinion...you are allowed do that, right? Well, I left that place, as I have stated already, because i did not have the time, patience or energy to deal with the nasty responses. I wasn't done talking, but I am not prepared to argue with people who feel civility is below them (feeling the need now to point out that only a couple of people are culprits of this).

I did not retreat behind Excelsior. He hadn't even been reading the thread until I left...at which point his curiosity got the better of him and he decided to respond.

His arguments were better than mine, undoubtedly...I am not happy with how I dealt with what I was trying to express...I was loose worded and I should have known better. But I am not going to desperately admonish and berate myself over such an inconsequential issue. I shall just be more careful in the future.

Now, my opinions on Shakespeare really are rather irrelevant, aren't they? I used them as an analogy to express my support for Lucy...who simply offered an opinion and not a denial of the importance of Beethoven.

I think that the literature of Shakespeare has undoubtedly changed the face of English writing down through the ages. This does not change the fact that I cannot bear his work. I studied Romeo and Juliet, and Hamlet, in school, and, being a bit of a stylew4nker and liking to be well read, I have bought several of his books for private study...only to discover that yes, I really do hate his work. Same goes for his sonnets - it would be pretentious of me to say that I find them interesting in any way.

I feel making Shakespeare compulsory on the leaving certificate course is ridiculous. His plays seem to me, in no way relevant to modern life, and in me, evoke no emotions whatever, other than boredon (which isn't even an emotion).

But this is only my opinion, and its not up for debate. You can rant about how great he is, and I will not disagree. You are right to think this if he evokes a positive response in you. But I will never agree with you, EVER!

Okay, time to stop ranting, take a few deep breaths, and go drink some coffee. This was too long.

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Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Clintons Cat

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
"referring back to Winston Churchill, it was his idea for the so-called "authorised" reprisals carried out during the war of independance and I'm not exactly sure if he didnt have a part to play in the black and tans and auxillaries coming over here."</font>

ok,i havent done my homework on this but i think by the time of the Easter Risings Churchill had resigned his Governmental post in the Admiralty over the Gallipolli Fiasco and consigned to the backbenches.He was an outspoken supporter of the Empire and is on the Record as opposing Partition.As for the Black and tans i am sure it was Baldwins policy(tha ******* had it in for trade unions too)


<ok dont say i dont check my facts>
lloydd George Sent the Black And Tans Not Baldwin.
http://www.spellmount.com/titles/modern/1862270988.html
http://www.irish-society.org/Hedgemaster%20Archives/black-tans.html


[This message has been edited by Clintons Cat (edited 16-03-2001).]

Excelsior

Where have the little girls with ethics in their hair gone?

We have ruined this cool post.

That is my opinion.
and Revelate is a cool song.