The Draft

Doc

What would people think if we had the draft in Ireland?
Would it be such a bad thing?

Doc

MiCr0

do u mean compulsary military/state service?

Doc

yes

Yossarian

why?

Doc

My friend is German and he would be drafted if he was not studying in England and i just want to know what people think about the draft... if thats ok with you!

Doc.

Figment

Very good question. Why?
Not why are you asking but why would we have it?

Figment


[This message has been edited by LittleFigment (edited 09-11-2000).]

Doc

I know we don’t need it but if we did have it what would your feelings on it be?

Bard

If military service was compulsory in this country, and there was an attempt to draft me (against my will) into the army, I'd seriously consider leaving the country as soon as possible.

It's not very likely in Ireland, mind you- considering it's generally "neutral" status.

---

Blitzkrieger

I think there should be. Historically how many countries have respected neutrality? I hope ww3 never happens but if it does I plan to do my part and I hope Ireland does too.

Hobbes

?

Ireland, Switzerland are two I can think of who have historically.

I'm sorry was there a point to that sentance?

Canaboid

Thats a bit of a sweeping statement there Blitz given that you don't even know who you'd be fighting.

Shinji

There's a school of thought which says that a period in the military will instill discipline and so on. It's not a bad idea; in fact, perhaps some form of limited draft into the military for persistent troublemakers in schools and so on would be a good idea?

However, a general draft would be a nightmare. I'd be doing my service right now - sod that. I've been working for almost 2 years now, and in fulltime education before that; I have a career and a life I'm rather happy with. There are thousands of others in the same position as I am, and the draft would mess that up bigtime.

I'd leave the country to avoid it.

Yossarian

Why would we need compulsary military service?
we dont. In times of peace it is pretty much pointless, most countries no longer have national service. There are some exceptions to this such as switzerland and germany. Even in germany tho National service does not mean military service, as you have the choice of taking a non-military job.

Do we need it in this country? No.
Does anyone want it in this country? No.


Stephen.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by Blitzkrieger:
I think there should be. Historically how many countries have respected neutrality? I hope ww3 never happens but if it does I plan to do my part and I hope Ireland does too.

Blitz if ww3 happens you and the rest of the world will be a smouldering pile of ashes before you get anywhere near 'doing your part'.

C B

Welll the original post posed the question of military/state service. The question of state service has been ignored.

I think drafting for state service might be a good thing.

Excelsior

crazy talk from most of you.

Canaboid

Which bits specifically ? How am I supposed to argue with you if you're vague
BTW you're wrong.

P.s. See for sale board for Pcmcia modem.

Manach

Loath as I am to paraphrase Heinlein " a country that relies on conscription to defend itself does not deserve to survive". There is opportunity for those who are interested in the Military to go through FCA / Civil defence though to be honest they are not overly-funded by the government and it shows.

---

fair is the prize and the hope is great

Paladin

Personally, Being forced to give a few years of your life to a country just because you had the misfortune to be born there isnt really fair, especially if you have to pay taxes to pay yourself too

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by Hobbes:
?

Ireland, Switzerland are two I can think of who have historically.

I'm sorry was there a point to that sentance?

I meant as aggressors Germany just rolled through Holland (and others I can't be bothered to think of) in ww2


Are you all honestly saying that if a war did start none of you would be willing to fight for the people and things you love, let alone the things you believe in?

Sweeden has the draft too, fyi. Poor auld Jesper Blomquist's career was put on hold for two years cos of it

Bard

Originally posted by Blitzkrieger:

Are you all honestly saying that if a war did start none of you would be willing to fight for the people and things you love, let alone the things you believe in?

Right now... YES, because there's no specific example you can give. I wouldn't take part in a war simply because my country is taking part in it. It totally depends on the situation surrounding the reason for the war whether I'd take part at all. You can't just generalise, it depends on the specific situation itself. I'd have to say though that I'm pretty sure it's highly unlikely there'd be any part for me to play in any war, and highly unlikely that I'd agree fundamentally with the reasoning behind the starting or waging of most wars.

---

Excelsior

alot of good arguments have been placed in favour of fighting for your country. it is true they say, that there is a justice that can only be found on the other side of war. ww2 is an example.
but i have no intention of dying because my country gets in a war. if i ever fight it will be because the war is my battle, not just my nation's.
it is not the right of a country to conscript in that situation.
i am much happier and much more productive here where i am now.

Doc

Well I’m against the draft, as I don’t believe in forcing any one to fight and possibly die if it is there choice not to do so but having said that if Ireland was under attack from some hostile nation I would not hesitate to join and fight for my country.
One other point though. What would people think of drafting people on the dole for a year into military or state service for a period of time?

C B

well the point has been made that it is wrong to force somebody to fight for something the don't believe in and it is a valid point.

But I do think that it would be mutually beneficial for thoise on the dole to engage themselves in some state/voluntary service for the entire period spent on the dole not just limited to 1/2 years.

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by Bard:
Right now... YES, because there's no specific example you can give.

I'm assuming that Ireland wouldn't go to war without a very[\i] good reason.

Draft people on the dole? They're trying to downsize the army already. Force their asses into a course to learn an employable skill more like. I think we already have more jobs than population or if not we will soon.

C B

OMG

More jobs than population how the fu(k did you work that one out?

---

Heres a little reality check from www.cso.ie

According to the Quarterly Household Budget Survey there were 1,670,700 people in employment as of May 2000.

The total number of those available for work but not currently employed was 74,900 with a further 1,217,000 not in the labour force.

Giving a total estimated population (excluding those under the age of 15) of 2,962,800.

Now lets review.
Jobs = 1,670,700
Population = 2,962,800

Even allowing for a massive amount of actual vacancies you still need to go back to school.

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 15-11-2000).]

Excelsior

even better than the work comment was his assumption that ireland would only go to war for a godd reason.
yeah, because ireland is better than every other country by dint of the fact that you live here blitzie?

you exceed yourself, and from an excelsior that is some ciompliment.

Blitzkrieger

ffs - you know I meant population in the work force/ are available for work and I did say "or soon will be"

You don't agree that Ireland wouldn't go to war at the drop of a hat?

C B

even still your wildly inaccurate on both counts.

As the labour market tightens the price of labour will rise (its happening as we speak) leading to a stabilisation of vacancies.

Ireland supported NATO's intervention in Kosovo and we let US planes land here in the Gulf War neither of which I fully support.
we refused to fight in WW2 something which I believe was entirely wrong. Just because Berti Ahern/ De Valera believe Ireland should/shouldn't involve themselves in a War does not mean I agree.

In relation to defense of our nation then I would have to question who the invaders were (there is such a thing as liberty through invasion, i.e the French in 1798, the Allies in 1945 and even the Bruce invasion of Ulster and Lenster in the 1300's).

You also claim that neutrality is not respected however not even the Nazi's invaded the Swiss and I can't think of any army/nation which is likely to be more unscrupolous than the Nazis.

TwoShedsJackson

On the other hand the Nazi's did invade Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Finland (helping the Russians in 1939-1940), Yugoslavia, and Greece/Crete which were all neutral at the time they were invaded.

Not to forget Poland, to start the war, and attacking Russia with whom they had signed a Pact at the time.

C B

I wasn't aware that all of those countries were neutral.

are you sure? Holland and Belgium were both recently collapsed imperial powers at the time.

I am probably wrong but even still neutrality is quite well respected generally speaking.

Paladin

Originally posted by C B:
You also claim that neutrality is not respected however not even the Nazi's invaded the Swiss and I can't think of any army/nation which is likely to be more unscrupolous than the Nazis.

ROFL
Dude, I dont know how much you know about ww2, (It was of a particular interest to me) but the reason the nazis didnt invade Switzerland had nothing to do with their neutrality, or at least very little to do with the fact.

Switzerland is very mountainous. Its entire population almost is armed. They have extensive defences in the mountains meanting they could put up a geurilla defence for years even against modern armies.
And most importantly, the nazis didnt want to invade switzerland, because they had all their fuking gold in the swiss banks! Everything they nicked from jews almost, went to switzerland and subsequently there have been loadsa attempted law suits from jewish survivors to get their money back from switzerland.

So thats why they didnt invade Switzerland. Not rreally bucause they were neutral, but because it suited them to avoid a tought little country like aht, and they made more money from them as a banking nation.

Hobbes

they didn't invade Ireland either as far as I remember. Didn't they apologise for accidently bombing Dublin as well?

Paladin

*ahem*. They didnt invade England or the USA either, nor a lot of other countries.
[hypothetical question with obvious answer]Why do you think that was? [/hypothetical question with obvious answer]

BTW. Apparently Churchill had drawn up plans to carpet Ireland in what I think was mustard gas If Germany tried to use Ireland as an invading base, although Im not sure exactly what kind of chemical agent it was. This was just plans, a contingency measure as it were. Whether it would have been used if the Germans had managed to scrounge up an invading force I dont know, but I doubt.

[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 15-11-2000).]

Coyote

One of the resions ireland did not join was that we used the time of the war to brake away from the UK.
and the irish gov made sure to ask the germans and the brits to help if the other side tryed to attack us, so if the germans attacked we called in the brits, and if the brits attacked they would have called in the germans to help us. (playing both sides off each other) both side had plans to use ireland as a base, great for the germans to block off the UK from the US and the rest of the world, and the brits would have used us as a steaping stone to the US and a save place to bulid stuff.

Coyote

Blitzkrieger

By accounts from "survivors" I get the impression that most people were willing to fight the germans alongside the british. A lot of people did everything they could to help.

C B

Pal,

Most other countries invaded by the nazi's were hardly hospitable. Its a bit odd to try and conquer Russia but think that Switzerland would be to hard. Also given the close cultural links a full invasion would not actually have been necessary they could simply have supported and internal revolution and created a puppet regime (see Norway, Spain, or Croatia for examples)
The banking system would have remained unhindered by the creation of a Nazi puppet state.

They did attempt to invade the U.K. but never made an attempt to invade Ireland. The U.S. did not enter the war until 1942 (even later in Europe) by which time a German invasion of the U.S. would have been impossible.

Blitz,

Of course their were people willing to fight the Germans a great many even joined the British army, many irish also fought on both sides in the Spanish civil war but none of that has got anything to do with the draft.

Gerry

The thing is, that few people feel that a country is a thing worth fighting for these days, and that accounts for most of the opposition to the draft. I'm not saying whether thats a good thing or a bad thing, just stating my opinion. Apathy is the next big thing, I think what we need is for the irish army to start bombing Ireland to wake people up.

ButcherOfNog

this should win silly post of the year

1. ireland will never be invaded, we have no natural resources worth invading for.
2. ireland will never invade someone else, because we'd rather go down the pub.

ok? now wise up.

Hobbes

Originally posted by ButcherOfNog:
1. ireland will never be invaded, we have no natural resources worth invading for.

So why did England orginally invade?

Gerry

If only I could somehow master the worm-can opening skills evident on this board, and apply them to opening cans of beans, sure I'd be flying.

In other news, germany had a lot of stupid plans, the topic here is supposed to be the draft, in a sort of future looking sense, not in a lets drag this through the mill one more time kind of malarkey.

I'd like to think I would be ok with the draft, but then again I am wondering indeed if Ireland is worth fighting for. I think I will go and fight for communism instead, or possibly my grant.

Excelsior

phil all those things would be futile, you ass.
futile and irrelevant.
cans of beans! i think you're are mocking the more vocal members of these boards.
how dare you dirty the good name of this hallowed site. how dare you sir.

C B

well as with most things it would be utterly futile to examine the future applicability of the draft without looking to see what history can teach us.

p.s. yet again you post when you have nothing to say excelsior you just can't seem to help yourself can you.

/me looks to Castor and tells him he'll be busy closing topics 'cause I haven't finished berating excelsior (only kidding)

come back and i'll taunt your some more.

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 16-11-2000).]

ButcherOfNog

Originally posted by Hobbes:
So why did England orginally invade?

England invaded everyone, they didn't really have a good reason, and before anyone pipes up, expanding the empire wasn't a good reason

Jak

Germans were planning to Invade Ireland - See the "Green Plan" for details.

We were to be a farming resource for the Reich.

In any case, thousands of Irish did fight in the war anyhows, unhindered by the fact their country was neutral, they went and signed up in the UK (often under fake documents .. not that they needed them).

IMO, it was short sighted in the extreme for us not to openly take part in the war. Irish died anyhows, and we collaborated with the allies often enough, but as we were technically neutral, we received none of the post-war reparations which helped many of the other European countries develop so quickly.

C B

Well I for one think its a good thing that people don't want to fight for their country. the death of nationalism is a good thing. But it is wrong to call that apathy. people may want to fight for things they actually believe in instead.

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by C B:
none of that has got anything to do with the draft.

Of course not - it was meant to be a interesting (but actually boring) aside.

There's a bit of a politician about you C B You nit-pick to avoid the difficult questions and take any oppertunity to but the boot in.

C B

I don't avoid difficult questions, the rest is true

Paladin

Originally posted by C B:

Its a bit odd to try and conquer Russia but think that Switzerland would be to hard

Dont you get it? They didnt want to invade Switzerland, because it benefitted them more not to. They knew they had a big f'ing continent to conquer. Why waste armed forces on a country that suited them to remain neutral and bank for them? (and it did matter a great deal that Switzerland was neutral banking for them, since many nazis werent stupid and didnt believe religiously in the third reich - a neutral country wouldnt have its banks bombed either).

. Also given the close cultural links a full invasion would not actually have been necessary they could simply have supported and internal revolution and created a puppet regime (see Norway, Spain, or Croatia for examples)

Close cultural links? Dude, they might eat the same food, and many speak the same language, but the Swiss were not Nazis.
And an internal revolution? Against what? A government that banked for the Nazis, making them one of the wealthiest per head of population countries against the world?
People dont revolt against governments that they support, and the people overwhelmingly supported their government (they kept them out of a war too dont forget)

Oh, and their invasion of yugoslavia (Croatia included) was an unmitigated disaster, since a guerilla war devasted the german troops, morally and provisionally, with no real benefit to the Nazis.

They did attempt to invade the U.K. but never made an attempt to invade Ireland.

OK this is getting ridiculuos.

Seriously man, where did u come up with that?
Operation sealion. Planned to be carried out in the summer of 1940. Put back to spring 1941. Hitler then changes plans and invades Russia. The operation was abandoned.
NO ATTEMPT TO INVADE THE UK WAS EVER CARRIED OUT BY THE NAZIS
If you dont believe me, Im confident that encyclopedia Britannica will back up the fact there was no invasion attempt (except in that film Bedknobs and Broomsticks )

Fidelis

A draft in the current state of world affairs would be daft.
About 30,000 soldiers if needs be ( including FCA ) and sure what good would another 20,000 conscripts be against a wave of bombs ? And if we *ever* needed real help, then we'd get it from the yanks and sure if it was the yanks attacking us, then we'd be fúcked

Vincent

Pal was the Battle of Britain not an attempt to invade Britain? Germany knew they had to control the airspace around Britain before they could launch an actual invasion, the RAF kicked the luftwaffes asses, so thus no real invasion was attempted.