bush v gore

stu_69

i know a lot of people over here probably don't give a **** but, how can any sane american vote for "George 'whitey' Bush" the man is a fu<kin nut job. he has only left america 3 times and one of those times he went to mexico, he's a cocaine addict, pro guns and all the other sh1t rednecks like. when they had prematurely announced that he had won i half expected to see all his supporters to start "whoopin and firun them their guns into te aer" bunch of hicks.

Hobbes

He's also a member of the Skulls. Do you think the recount was unexpected?

'Nuff said.

the fnj

The bush family sold there souls a long time ago! Thats the best explanition I can come up with for a Bush being elected president of the USA.

TwoShedsJackson

This election is reinforcing the dynastic nature of US politics. Whatever about Bush, and of course he is the son of a former President, Gore has literally been groomed from birth by his parents to be President.

Plus this electoral college thing is b0llocks imo, how could a man (potentially) get more of the popular vote than his opponent yet still lose the election? Daft.

Blitzkrieger

Yeah - wtf is that?

What happened to "one man, one vote"

If it's supposed to protect the yanks from themselves it's not working by letting Bush win.

C B

Originally posted by Castor Troy:
This election is reinforcing the dynastic nature of US politics. Whatever about Bush, and of course he is the son of a former President, Gore has literally been groomed from birth by his parents to be President.

Plus this electoral college thing is b0llocks imo, how could a man (potentially) get more of the popular vote than his opponent yet still lose the election? Daft.

Both of these issues are certainly problems but they are by no means unique to the States.
Of course all Presidents have been groomed by their parents (the same is true of almost all political/church/business leaders). I like the idea of people who have had ambition and ideaology instilled at a young age running for President (though Bush's ideaology is questionable).

The electoral college is not perfect but it is the exact same way that the Prime minisiter of The UK is elected and very similar to the way our Taoiseach, the German Chancellor, the French Prime Minister and most other world leaders are elected (South Africa and Russia are probably the only major exceptions)

Thathcer never had a majority of the popular vote (nor do Ahern/Harney combined).

So yes the system is somewhat bizarre but not unique or a disaster.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by C B:
The electoral college is not perfect but it is the exact same way that the Prime minisiter of The UK is elected

errr, i wouldn't agree with that - in the UK the people vote directly for their MP's on a one vote per person basis - the party with the majority of MP's then forms the government and elects the Prime Minister i.e. their leader.

In the States you have this 'electoral college' business so you still have one vote per person, but the person with the most votes get all the college votes and once he gets over 270 he becomes President - that's a noticeably different system to the UK.

Plus it's how you can have a Democratic President but Republican Senate etc. - the Congress do not elect the President in the manner that the House of Commons or Dail elect the Prime Minister or Taoiseach - they can only remove him.

Doc

Sounds like an everyday American to me.

Doc.

pepperkin

And this is why I say that Americans don't really choose the president, it's the government, they only let us vote to shut us up...they can't claim we're a great democracy if they don't let us do the pointless task of voting.
And take your "yank" comments and shove them up your rear, because not all Americans are "yanks" and I for one take offence to it!

El_Presidente

I only hope Gore wins.

He is the lesser of two evils and at least he has BEEN to Europe.

May the one you call Bill ClinTON live on forever.

Hobbes

"Whats the point in democracy if you can't get what you want." - Drew Carey.

Paladin

"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."...Governor George
W. Bush, Jr.


For other really retarded quotes from this ignorant redneck http://www.boards.ie/bulletin/Forum16/HTML/000482.html


[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 09-11-2000).]

stu_69

"I finally found out what the W stands for, 'whitey'" - Jay leno on election night. i think it has turned into a joke in america at the moment, with all the sh it in florida. the only good thing about the election night was watching dan rathner trying to explain why george bush hadn't won after all. i reckon this one will run for some time. i on the bus and i got talking to two americans who have been living in ireland for a year studying and they said that if bush does win they will not return to america.

C B

Originally posted by Castor Troy:

In the States you have this 'electoral college' business so you still have one vote per person, but the person with the most votes get all the college votes and once he gets over 270 he becomes President - that's a noticeably different system to the UK.

O.K lets take the constituency of Sheffield Hallam in the UK and the State of Arkansaw.

Firstly Arkansaw in the Presidental Election 2000. Arkansaw has six electoral votes. George Bush got 51% of the vote and takes all six electoral votes. Al Gore got 45% and gets none. Unfair? Probably. Unique? Certainly not.
Take the constituency of Sheffield Hallam in the U.K in the 1997 General Election.
The Lib Dems got 51% of the vote and take the electoral vote and the 15,000 Conservative votes count for absolutely nothing in the election of the Prime Minister.

When these results are tabulated accross the full range of constituencies/states you'll find similar results. If, in any given constituency, you vote for the loser you may as well not vote at all.

Our system is marginally better as each constituency has proportional representation by means of a Single Transferable Vote, but we still end up with a head of government whom in excess of 50% of those who bothered to go to a polling station said was not the best available man for the job.

Below are the full results of the examples I used which have been reproduced from msnbc.com and limdems.org.uk . I did not pick these constituencies for any other reason than that they were the first ones I clicked on.

---

George W. Bush (REP) 469,918
Al Gore (DEM) 417,949
Ralph Nader (GRN) 13,205
Patrick J. Buchanan (RFM) 10,936

---

Liberal Democrats 23,345 (51%)
Labour 6,147 (14%)
Conservative 15,074 (33%)

---

pepperkin

And what IS an everyday American, Doc? Just curious...since I know a lot of different people here in America, many of which are vastly different people...

"closed-minded are the ones who label the unwilling."

Bard

Originally posted by Doc:
Sounds like an everyday American to me.

Doc.

Ah jeez Dave, come on... you know better than that! America has probably the most diverse mix of cultures and creeds on the planet - there's really no such thing as an 'everyday' or 'average' American.

---

C B

Castor,

An advantage of the American System over ours (or the U.K.'s) is that once the electoral college has met and elected the president it disbands so they are unable to hold him to ransom like a certain deputy from South Kerry does here.

The fact that there is a seperation of the executive and legislative functions of government leads to a greater degree of compromise and also means that governments only fall in very severe case's (i.e Watergate in the States) rather than for reasons of political timing (i.e. the PD's waiting for the next budget and Healy-Rae waiting for an abortion referendum here)


El-Pres,

Gore is much more than the lesser of two evils. He is himself an excellent candidate. for evidence look at his tax plan, his plans (and record) for educational investment0, his plans for pension funds, his (and Clintons) record on healthcare, his adoption of the Kyoto protocol and protection of conservation areas, and he is pro-choice, pro-affirmative action and has a positive view of America's role in international peace keeping/ enforcement.

O.K he may be pro death penalty and may not be able to deliver on other social issues because of a Republican controlled Congress, but he is by no means evil or an unpallitable choice.

Nader may make nice sounds about a more progressive form of government but (neglecting the fact that he never had a chanceof winning the election) he would make a far worse President than Gore because sometimes leaders need to bend their principles for the sake concensus. nader would be devisive and achieve nothing.

Cloud

http://www.taterbrains.com/images/Floridaballot.jpg

[This message has been edited by Cloud (edited 10-11-2000).]

DeVore

Does anyone else see the delicious irony in Pepperkin explaining her label of "close minded" thus:

"closed-minded are the ones who label the unwilling."

DeVore...

Doc

I was only messing and I Apologise if i have upset annyone.

Bard

Originally posted by Doc:
I was only messing and I Apologise if i have upset annyone.

Doubt you've upset anyone, Dave- I just happen to know a few people who do take offence to terms such as 'yank' and other derogatory terms to describe Americans. T'is a wide world - and you're already well on your way to exploring more of it than most of us home-bound Irish

Paladin

Originally posted by DeVore:
Does anyone else see the delicious irony in Pepperkin explaining her label of "close minded" thus:

"closed-minded are the ones who label the unwilling."

DeVore...

Yes actually.

Originally posted by Doc:
Sounds like an everyday American to me.
Doc.

Originally said by George W. Bush:

America will have the best educated Americans in the world

Originally posted by Doc:
Sounds like an everyday American to me.
Doc.

Do I get away scot free if all I do is quote people?
hehehe

TwoShedsJackson

My actual fave is

Originally said by George W. Bush

I believe in freedom of speech, I just think there should be limits to that freedom

Hobbes

http://www.pixelspill.com/floridaballots.html#

Bard

Originally posted by DeVore:
Does anyone else see the delicious irony in Pepperkin explaining her label of "close minded" thus:

DeVore...

I did. Instantly. But there ya go.

And take it easy on Doc, eh Paladin?

---

Paladin

Nono Bard. Wrong end of the piece of wood (stick I think it is).

I was actually kinda echoing his words, but puting all the blame for a possibly controversial statement back on him cause Im gutless - no wait....amm....ya actually thats it

Basically I was taking the pis$ outta americans, cause its so easy.
I mean after all, we are all leprachauns over here and thats what leprachauns do, cause they stole my lucky charms.

pepperkin

No worries Doc, I'm not offended, I just wanted to know what an everyday american is!
I do however get ****y about the yank comments (of which Doc is innocent this time) but if you look at the facts...the term Yankee came from the civil war...the yankees were mostly arrogant, self centered, self serving *****s...not all, but most.
And I dislike being banded in with them!
So thats that
As for George Bush saying we'll have the best educated americans in the world...that doesn't surprise me, as he will never be one of them, the moron...
And as for us "Unwilling" to be labelled or stereotyped, there is always running away to a deserted island in the south pacific and electing ME
*grins*

Paladin

From talking to my relations in america (Originally Irish obviously, and extremely well educated - i.e. Id give them some credit) Al Gore is a 'Dirty Politician' , their words. Basically he couldnt be trusted as far as you could drop kick him, but that said, he is a lot smarter that Bush and they would still prefer Gore to a trigger happy ignorant moranic redneck.

Manach

Being conservative minded myself, it is true to say that while Bush may not seem to be the smartest at least he does not attract supporters who paraded with placards proclaiming their own stupidity.

Wyverne

i sincerely hope Gore wins, i'll be honest i dont know too much about what each of them has intended for when they become president (apart from what i have just learned here today) all i can say (and maybe you will all say that its short-sightedly so) but all i can say is that myself and one of my best friends believe bush to be bad - really bad - so much so that he actually calls bush "The Anti-Christ"

and i think hes bad as well,

gore is not the lesser of two evils, he looks to me to be a great candidate, and i think the only reason that alot more americans dont vote for him (my opinion and of course open to disagreement) is because he is not an openly charismatic man. bush SEEMS to be a nice man, but i reckon that gore is the nicer man, just does not have the same abilities in expressing himself as does bush

i'll shut up now, cuz even i dont know where im going

come on gore !!!

GreenHell

Well its common knowledge that ever full moon Bush dawns his red pcv suit some horns and dance around texus with his redneck friends or menions as he likes call em

[This message has been edited by GREENHELL (edited 12-11-2000).]

Excelsior

yeah, a good way to vote is to choose based on the candidates supporters!?!

gore is not, in my opinion, an excellent candidate. he is the same candidate in fact, as george bush. the difference is that he can clearly write (he has a very good book) and he hasnt any drinking problems.
his supporters are less likely to tolerate anti-christ like activites.
however that is it. america needs a revolution in thought and attitude and neither gore nor bush can provide it.

cue flame response from cb.

i will not respond, rather i will put my thoughts on paper and put them up on my website and on challenge-ie

Manach

- Excelsior, Matt 7:20.

- Just to say this is an interesting spectator sport and we shouldn't get too worked up about it. Still do ye think it might be an option for the Americans to seek readmittence into the British Empire. . It is so ironic to see this happen to the self-proclaimed "Premier Democracy".

Excelsior

the matthew reference is a real nice thing to do. thanks manach, i'll check it when i get home.
kofi annan and the un should be called in to oversee the elections from now on, or maybe it would be more ironic if representatives from burundi, south africa, rwanda and the fyr could oversee the elections.

TwoShedsJackson

Tut tut Excelsior, I'm an atheist and even I know Matthew 7:20.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

Consider, however, Matthew 13:12.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath

Sounds like the Republican manifesto to me.

Hobbes

Sometimes fact is funnier then fiction.
http://users.rcn.com/robtoups




[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited 14-11-2000).]

C B

O.K. Excelsior I won't disappoint you.


I set out a list of reasons why Al Gore was an excellent candidate and why a "revolutionary" candidate like Nader or Buchanan would be a disaster. You simply failed to deal with any of these, you fail to state how Gore is the same as Bush, you fail to state what form of revolution the US needs (constitutional/violent; grassroots/military; right/left/anarchist), you fail to state who exactly will lead this revolution; you fail to state what the resultant US will be like; you fail to state what the global consequence will be.

A proper discussion of all of these issues should make for a good edition of your challenge.ie column which you seem to take every opportunity to promote, however I would appreciate it if you could also post your reply to this forum rather than resorting to hit and run tactics.

Castor,

Have you just been baptised by Ned Flanders , and I assume that you accept by earlier points regarding the US election system given your lack of response

Excelsior

<edited post which contained absolutely nothing related to the topic>

[This message has been edited by Castor Troy (edited 14-11-2000).]

Jak

Very witty.

C B

Excelcior,

If you do not wish (or are unable) to discuss the debacle of the US elections then don't bother.

Simply pretending you have a good point which I wouldn't understand is petty, childish, and beneath the level of discussion which has become the norm on the humanities board.

If you are able to put your point across in a coherent and logical manner then do so and I wiil read it, and discuss it with you.

If you are not able to do this then stop wasting my time, our own time and that of everybody else who logs on to this board to voice intelligent and well thought out opinions.

Hobbes

everybody else who logs on to this board to voice intelligent and well thought out opinions.

I wonder what percentage that would be?

TwoShedsJackson

Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, 43, a former real estate broker from Key West, Florida, is a staunch Republican who took time out from official duties last winter to campaign for GOP presidential candidate George W. Bush in New Hampshire, according to a report in the Washington Post.

Harris also serves as co-chairwoman of Bush's Florida campaign and was a delegate to last summer's GOP national convention in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

and this is the person certifying Florida's recount which just happens to have given the result to Bush (pending various recounts etc.) - oh democracy in action, isn't it great?

C B

To be fair the Florida Attorney General is a Democrat and Chairperson of the Gore campaign so it evens out.

This is just the ugly face of the two party system.

---

P.S. thanks a million Castor
now that you've edited excelsiors post my response looks completely out of place

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 15-11-2000).]

TwoShedsJackson

terrible shame

Excelsior

my point actually was that one can't make a point on this board that is understood. it is impossible. it is obvious that what we do here is lay our our personal manifesto (gosh i've been guilty of that before) and leave at that. no genuine interaction takes place or can take place.
it is futile.
anyone who had gathered anything from my personality over the past year would have seen that post as something other than a childish rant. but we dont know each other because we dont discuss things. we just talk to ourselves.
so i will post my arguments on my website and i will talk to the people who visit it about it.
is that ok cb or would you prefer me to engage in needless irrelvant, no, preposterous navel gazing on behalf of our hallowed humanities board?

C B

If you don't like the Boards why do you contiue to post here? Have you nothing better to do than waste other peoples time with spam? And then you have the cheek to demand to be listened to on topics which you feel strongly about; Christianity etc.

In relation to the level of discussion on the boards I have set out the reasons I believe Al Gore is an excellant candidate for President you are the one you simply stated your personal belief without any explaination of your reasoning.

If you wish to discuss the issue with me then state why you oppose the Gore candidancy.

TwoShedsJackson

Excelsior, from what I've seen here, as soon as a discussion reaches a point where you are unable to add anything further you either post rubbish as per your last post or start bleating about how Christians are rubbished and belittled constantly.

Jak

In addition,

I have on occasion broadened my opinion of a given topic due to the arguments put forward by individuals on this board.

Perhaps your lack of ability or inclination to reason and discuss a topic past stating your own initial beliefs, leads to these feelings of futility you so cleverly mentioned.

JAK.

Excelsior

medal for you all.
i havent said i wouldnt deal with the issues at hand.
rather i said i will deal with them elsewhere.
the realisation of futility grows as the pointlessness continues.
now, my friends are playing lunar lander, i'll join them and take your leave gentlemen.

if its gonna be futile it might as well be fun

C B

If you have a point make it; if not fu(k off

P.S. you have friends?

[This message has been edited by C B (edited 15-11-2000).]

Excelsior

cutting.

the edit was questionable.
it was said that i should respond.
so i did, explainig that i was to respond elsewhere.
that is relevant.
but heck, what matter it as no one reads it.