Poor road signage

MT

Hi all,
Have been reading through this forum for a while now so thought I’d make a post.

I’m from Northern Ireland but travel regularly in the Republic due to work amongst other things. As is all too obvious the state of the roads down south have improved drastically over the last ten years, however the signage – new and old – remains remarkably inadequate.

These are some of the main problems I’ve noticed when compared with signage in the UK and other parts of the world I’ve driven in:

Durability – Why are signs down south so flimsy? While the shoddy state of older signs can be explained by their age, the modern versions erected in recent years appear to be alarmingly fragile. Many directional signs and certainly the vast majority of warning signs are bent or twisted. A large number have almost reached the point of ineligibility. On the other hand, signs that have stood for far longer in NI – decades even – seem to be in practically pristine condition by comparison. Despite having always placed this disparity at the foot of higher rates of driver collisions the true reason was recently revealed to me. A friend who manufactures signs up here told me that those in the Republic are actually cut from thinner sheets of alloy! Result – they’re simply less robust. In the long run this will surely just add further to maintenance/replacement costs. On top of this a whole stream of dingy signs just look unsightly.

Ease of reading – As is a problem up here, I feel that signs down south are simply too small. When you factor in bilingualism they appear overly crowded reducing ease of comprehension. This is particularly the case with your white signs on R routes. Their minute!! Anything over 30 would seem to require the vision of a fighter pilot to digest the information. Surely bilingual signs need to be much larger, not smaller!!

Lighting/reflectivity – This seems to be a foreign concept altogether. In the UK signs at major junctions are usually lit. On top of this all motorway/trunk road signs have what seems like reflective sheeting stuck over them. This improves visibility at night remarkably and is something the NRA should really consider.

Maintenance – Whoever’s job it is should be given their notice. I’ve seen signs that appear to have disintegrated years ago and yet they are never replaced. A simple question: why spend the time and money putting up signs in the first place if after suffering major damage they’re forgotten about? Of course there’d be less repair required if signs were made from more robust material!

Warning signage clutter – As well as having too few signs you can also have too many. On many of the south’s roads I find that you are increasingly bombarded with an excessive number of yellow diamonds, chevrons etc. This is compounded by many councils seeming inability to remove the older signs they update – I once saw five signs in a row warning of a sharp bend, eh!!! The net result is that drivers when confronted with too much info will simply switch off. In the UK the balance seems to be about right. Not too few warnings to leave you unaware but not so many as to become a blur.

Gantry signs – On most other national motorway networks these are very common. They make travel so much easier on multi-laned roads, especially at complex intersections. The M50 around Dublin could really do with plenty.

Finger posts – C’mon, these were probably phased out in other countries not long after ww2. What gives – apart from their ability to remain pointed in the right direction? Furthermore most signs are now erected in the UK with at least two poles ensuring that they can’t be swivelled round the wrong way when colliding with a vehicle.

Diagrammatic signs – Very common in advance of junctions up here, so too in Germany and Holland. Unfortunately they seem to be used much less down south – only really prior to roundabouts and m’way slip roads.

Tourism signs – These seem to have shot up in ridiculous numbers at many junctions leaving important route signage almost crowded out. Ironically, forests of brown finger posts in picturesque towns and on rural roads do tourism few favours – they’re a bleedin’ eyesore! Up here, the regulations governing these seem to be much tighter – certainly they’ve been kept away from junctions more effectively.

Traffic lights – With the exception of London for some reason, these always have white rimed surrounds in the UK. The simple effect is to increase the driver’s awareness of their existence. This policy, however, seems to have only been inacted in a minority of towns down south. Surely it would make more sense in terms of visual consistency to standardise all traffic lights across the Republic. Both Britain and Ireland should also make far more use of lights on gantries.

Finally, striped poles – Always save the best until last. I’m sorry, but has some facet of traffic management passed me by. What, oh what, unearth is the idea behind painting the odd signpost here and there in town centres with black and white stripes. Either paint all of them or none at all! The current approach looks ridiculous. Were workmen blindfolded and told to paint any they happened to bump into? Seriously though, are zebra poles really necessary – surely pedestrians/drivers aren’t that blind?

Sorry for the long-winded post. The above is a sincere attempt at constructive criticism not a mindless rant. However, I do feel that the Republic’s increasingly high quality roads are being let down by a chaotic and poorly thought out signage system.

Roads 7/10 Signs 3/10

MrPudding

Hmmm, another Northie driver. Be prepared to be blamed for *all* of the bad driving that happens down here. Your opinion will count for sh1t as you are probably an overly aggressive, speeding, undertaking, penalty point dodging Northie ba*tard driver.

MrP

Zaph0d

Yes the signs are rubbish but there are more pressing problems such as fatal accident rates being double the UK. You'd hope that the signs will be improved when they're all changed in January for kmh. Gantry signs are appearing over the M50.

Is there going to be a motorway from the border near Dundalk up to Belfast?

dmeehan

there are also gantry signs on the south ring in cork

Capt'n Midnight

MT wrote:

Lighting/reflectivity ? This seems to be a foreign concept altogether. In the UK signs at major junctions are usually lit. On top of this all motorway/trunk road signs have what seems like reflective sheeting stuck over them. This improves visibility at night remarkably and is something the NRA should really consider.

Diagrammatic signs ? Very common in advance of junctions up here, so too in Germany and Holland. Unfortunately they seem to be used much less down south ? only really prior to roundabouts and m?way slip roads.a mindless rant. However, I do feel that the Republic?s increasingly high quality roads are being let down by a chaotic and poorly thought out signage system.

Councils have been caught putting reflective paint on to signs - rather than put on proper reflective tape.

Diagrams, the few that are here are unclear - some you have to figure out.

You missed one point, the changing of destinations on motorway exits, the number and N road stay the same, but they'll use different towns on different signs..

MrPudding

Zaph0d wrote:

Is there going to be a motorway from the border near Dundalk up to Belfast?

There will be motorway the whole way from Dublin (maybe even Wicklow might be the plan) to Belfast. That is supposed to be the long term plan. IN the short to medium term you will have motorway from Dublin to the border and then a mixture of dual carriageway and motorway to Belfast. They are currently dualing the single carriageway sections of the road from Newry. Can't wait until that is finished.

MrP

luckat

Perhaps the signs are planned and painted by people from homes for the bewildered. I've long suspected so, at any rate.

Wait till they drive the road through Tara and the surrounding sacred sites; presumably the result will be curses from the sidhe that will make them even more bewildered.

If that were possible, of course.

Victor

MrPudding wrote:

There will be motorway the whole way from Dublin (maybe even Wicklow might be the plan) to Belfast.

The Dundalk - Lisburn section will be to a dual carriageway standard indefinitely.

daymobrew

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You missed one point, the changing of destinations on motorway exits, the number and N road stay the same, but they'll use different towns on different signs..

I wrote to the NRA a few years back suggesting gantry signs (which I assume to mean over lane rather than on left). Don't think I got a response.
I also suggested listing next 3 motorway exits. If you know what is ahead it might help decide if current exit is the one the person wants (a process of elimination).

Obviously none of these are *my* ideas - I just liked what I saw when I lived in California. Signs were also well lit or had great reflective properties. NRA said that their signs were up to European standards - which I assume are poor. I therefore assume that other EU members implement signs above/beyond the EU standards. Why can't we?

MT

Hi again and thanks for the replies

Mr Pudding

Hmmm, another Northie driver. Be prepared to be blamed for *all* of the bad driving that happens down here. Your opinion will count for sh1t as you are probably an overly aggressive, speeding, undertaking, penalty point dodging Northie ba*tard driver.

You’re accusing me of aggression!!?? Although I’m quite a careful driver you do raise an important point about northern drivers heading south. Thing is though it works both ways – many of the most reckless drivers up here are from the south. I think it stems from a belief – fairly justified – that the police on both sides will lay off drivers from the other side due to legal reasons etc. This has got to change. Moreover, now the Gardai have a traffic corps there should be much greater co-operation and co-ordination with the PSNI’s traffic branch. Maybe they could potentially merge into a joint traffic structure, able to pursue law breakers across the border. A unified policy threat backed up by action would I believe transform the attitudes of cross border traffic.


Zaph0d

Yes the signs are rubbish but there are more pressing problems such as fatal accident rates being double the UK.
But don’t you think that good signage – especially warning and speed limit signs – can contribute to a safer driving environment.

Is there going to be a motorway from the border near Dundalk up to Belfast?

I doubt this will ever be upgraded to motorway standard – should be though! That and renumbering the route M1 to match its southern counterpart, creating a continuous motorway. The current situation of having the M1 from Belfast veering off west at Lisburn now looks ridiculous. Tourists have been known to arrive in Dungannon looking for Dublin.

What they are doing isn’t such a bad substitute however. I believe that almost all of the route will be dualled with most junctions grade separated. However, some farce will remain with the hopelessly inadequate junction at Sprucefield and I believe the plan to dual from Newry to the border may have been rejected in favour of an ‘improved’ single lane road – if so a disgraceful decision. Another wonder from the magic hat of direct rule governance!


Capt’n Midnight

Councils have been caught putting reflective paint on to signs - rather than put on properreflective tape.

What happens in the UK is that the signs not only use reflective tape for words, diagrams etc. The transparent reflective sheeting is stuck over this as well. The result is that the signs are doubly reflective. Next time you’re up here just note how much brighter ‘green’ signs on A roads are at night. To add to this, the graphics of the signs covered in the said sheeting seem to degrade at a much slower rate than those on uncovered signs. At night down south the wording on older signs can be very badly obscured by accumulation of dirt/degradation. The reflective sheeting up here seems to act as a protective barrier.

You missed one point, the changing of destinations on motorway exits,

True. Furthermore, apart from the M50, m’ways appear to be devoid of junction numbers.


Daymobrew

Yeah, gantry signs really are the way to go on motorways and dual-carriageways. They’re so much easy to follow. Looking across to signs on the verge is simply inadequate on multi-lane roads. They’re often difficult to transpose in your mind unto the various lanes and certainly aren’t much use if your view is blocked by a lorry in the slow lane.

Zaph0d

MT wrote:

Yes the signs are rubbish but there are more pressing problems such as fatal accident rates being double the UK. [/I]
But don’t you think that good signage – especially warning and speed limit signs – can contribute to a safer driving environment.

Ireland's fatal accident rate is caused by poor driver education and ineffective enforcement. We have consultants reports and safety strategies outlining what has to be done since 1998 but we haven't got around to it. Building new roads has been a higher priority activity than reducing road fatalities.

The NCT (MOT) and improvements to many roads and accident blackspots have helped safety from an engineering point of view. These factors were never large compared to drink driving, speeding and mornonic driving.

In the south many people have never done a driving test. My father got his in the same way you get a TV licence. Other got theirs in an amnesty. hundreds of thousands drive on learner licences without the accompanying licenced driver as this rule is not enforced. Testing standards are inconsistent and outdated. Industrial relations and mangement of the driving test centers is dire with waiting lists of up to 18 months for decades. There were no standards for driving instructors beyond a normal driver's licence until recently.

Often you get to a junction and realise that the driver facing you doesn't know how to legally make a right turn.

That's why signage ain't number one priority.

mike65

Some choice roadsigns.




www.magireland.org/FunnyROADSIGNS_files/Irish/famoussignpost2.jpg

www.usatoday.com/travel/news/features/2003/2003-01-30-irish-signs.htm

http://www.holidayhound.com/editorials/t3mpsigadvise.htm

http://irishcar.com/signsurveycr.htm

and finally http://dakotahblu.typepad.com/beebee_vavoom/IMG_1130-thumb.JPG


Mike.

Our man in Havana

Mother of God! Some one should be shot for that sign. Council ineptitude or pure vandalism, it's anyones guess!

Alun

As well as permanent signage, I think Ireland has some of the worst temporary signage in the world. You know, the kind of signs they put up before roadworks and the like where they're blocking off lanes.

How many times do you see a sign indicating that the right hand lane is going to disappear in X metres, when it either does nothing of the sort because they're too damn lazy to remove the signs when they're not working, or instead of the right hand lane it's the left hand lane that disappears. Or my all time favourite, (mis-)using the sign that indicates that a road narrows on one side to indicate a lane disappearing!!!

Yoda

daymobrew wrote:

I also suggested listing next 3 motorway exits. If you know what is ahead it might help decide if current exit is the one the person wants (a process of elimination).

To do this, you would have to name or number the exits. Good idea. All those little nameless yellow secondary roads on the maps... it's madness!

Alun

Yoda wrote:

To do this, you would have to name or number the exits. Good idea. All those little nameless yellow secondary roads on the maps... it's madness!

They are numbered on the M50, can't say I use any other motorway that often to have noticed whether they do the same on the others.

John R

These direction signs have to be the most stupid and dangerous signs ever created and they are on almost every motorway exit in the country.

It actively encourages dangerous motorway behaviour such as people diving across 3 lanes at the last minute or idiots stopping and reversing to get to an exit they passed. If people are not in the correct lane for an exit by 100m then tough, there should never be last minute signs.

Yoda

Alun wrote:

They are numbered on the M50, can't say I use any other motorway that often to have noticed whether they do the same on the others.

Not numbered so people use them, though. "Take exit 145, turn left at the intersection, and...." is common enough parlance in the US.

murphaph

Has anyone ever noticed those two UK/Continental style warning signs advising of liability to frost on the N3, between Dunshaughlin and Navan I think? wtf are they all about! They've been there donkey's years.

Alun

Yoda wrote:

Not numbered so people use them, though. "Take exit 145, turn left at the intersection, and...." is common enough parlance in the US.

Well, I use them, and I suspect a lot of new arrivals (such as myself) to Ireland use them because they were used to them wherever they came from.

When I'm giving directions to people I use road numbers, and junction numbers where present, and indeed, the concept of both appears quite alien to most of them. "Is that the X road?" (where X=insignificant random Irish town en-route) they ask, and my reply is a) I don't know and b) I don't care, why should I? That usually shuts them up!

Yoda

I mean that the numbers aren't applied so that people can learn them and use them. I only found out the other day that we have a class of road called C. Are these numbered?

Alun

Yoda wrote:

I mean that the numbers aren't applied so that people can learn them and use them. I only found out the other day that we have a class of road called C. Are these numbered?

OK, I see what you mean. They never use them on the radio for example to say there's an accident between junctions 10 and 11 like they do all the time in the UK.

Never heard of a C road though.

Yoda

We have Motorways, with M- numbers, National roads, with N- numbers, Regional roads, with R- numbers, and, apparently, E- and C- roads too. This according to http://www.iol.ie/~discover/maps.htm in his review of the Ordnance Survey's 1:210,000 Complete Road Atlas of Ireland.

Now looking at the legend to the Ordnance Survey's 1:50,000 Discovery Series map sheet 31, I find the following: Motorways (pale blue, M), National Primary Roads (green, N), National Secondary Roads (green and white, N), Regional Roads (orange, R), Third Class Roads (yellow; in "4 metres min" and "4 metres max" sizes), and Other Roads (grey), which would appear to include my driveway. I don't know where the E- and C- class roads fit into this scheme.

Now on an old Ordnance Survey 1:126,720 map I find National Primary Roads (green, N), National Secondary Roads (green and white, N), Trunk Roads (red, T), Link Roads (red and white, L), Third Class Roads (yellow), Other Roads (grey).

murphaph

E roads (like E01 from Larne to Valencia (I think) via Rosslare) are Euroroutes. The are not signposted here but on the continent are very useful for cross border travel where the AXX becomes the AYY under the various national schemes but the E number remains the same. I think the E20 runs from Limerick to Moscow!!

As for C roads? beats me. Maybe it's an old classification or something.

Victor

Yoda wrote:

We have Motorways, with M- numbers, National roads, with N- numbers, Regional roads, with R- numbers, and, apparently, E- and C- roads too.

E-routes are irrelevant in the Irish context. C-roads are county roads. So far every Motorway is part of the National Primary system (M1, M4, M8, M9, M32, M50)

National Primary Roads		N1-N50 (with an M-prefix where appropriate)
National Secondary Roads 	N51-N100
Regional Roads 			R101-R1000
Third Class Roads (county) 	C1001-C9999
Other Roads 			Typically private roads

Yoda wrote:

This according to http://www.iol.ie/~discover/maps.htm in his review of the Ordnance Survey's 1:210,000 Complete Road Atlas of Ireland.

This has been superceded with a 1:200,000 atlas.

Trunk Roads and Link Roads were the original system before National and Regional Routes. In the 1970s, as the system was implemented starting with National Routes, both were shown on many maps. Existing signs weren't necessarily removed when the new onces were put up.

Yoda

Has the 1:200,000 atlas corrected the faults your man reports in it:

This is a 107 page spiral bound atlas published in 2004 by OSI and their Northern Ireland counterparts.** Unfortunately the depiction of controlled access divided highway interchanges and junctions is very poor.* It is generally impossible to tell whether a junction is a full or half junction and which manoeuvres are possible. Only N and R road numbers are shown (no indication of E or C road numbers). The city maps are devoid of road detail,* car park information or other POIs.

In any case, I don't believe I have seen any signs with County Road numbers on them, not any maps which numbered County Roads.

Victor

Yoda wrote:

Has the 1:200,000 atlas corrected the faults your man reports in it:

I think it shows micro version of the junction, but no expanded version.

In any case, I don't believe I have seen any signs with County Road numbers on them, not any maps which numbered County Roads.

I don't think they ever will, sure it's difficult enough to get them to number the first 1000, nevermind the rest.

BrianD

C roads are all those country laneways. They are generally only referred to when making planning permission applications and for internal use by councils.

I notice that there seems to be a convention that wnen an N route is replaced with an M that the old route is renamed. For example the M1 replaces the N1 but much of the old route is still there. This has become an R route instead.

The E routes are marked on some maps but not on signage. The M1/M11 is E01 as far as I know.

Yoda

It does not seem unreasonable to expect roads to be numbered or named, and to have those numbers or names to be available in published materials or signage, does it?

BrianD

Nearly every road is numbered. The exception is country lanes. Ireland has one of the largest road networks in the world. Unfortunately much of it is bohereens built during the harsh times. Take a look at any OS map and you'll the vast network of laneways that exists.

As one of development of houses as been allowed the people living on these cart tracks insist that their road is maintained. This is a huge drain on resources. Ideally these 'C' roads should not be maintained at all. Perhaps they could do what they do down under - leave them unsealed and just a grader down once a year to level them off.

Yoda

Where are the roads numbered? Not in any of the (rather many) maps and atlases I have.

Let us not talk about road maintenance here. This thread is about identification and signage.

is_that_so

One would like to hope that when the big changeover happens in January , "minor" problems like these will be resolved as well

Yoda

Idle hope? Or founded-upon-reality hope?

Far as I know, they are not touching identification signage, only the posted speed limits.

thejollyrodger

I dont want to come across all funny,
but why dont you just stay up north MT and do us all a favour;)

Yoda

MT is right.

And we should live in an excellent environment, with excellent signage which useful and helpful to us and to visitors here.

And if we don't ACT to help our leaders DO something about, then we get what we deserve, which is the ****e signage system we have.

Lennoxschips

Finger posts – C’mon, these were probably phased out in other countries not long after ww2. What gives – apart from their ability to remain pointed in the right direction?

In fairness, they're used in Holland, France, Italy and Germany.

But yeah, your other points are fairly valid. If you don't have a map with you it's fairly easy to get lost. If you're a tourist driving from Dublin to Cork then you have to know that you first have to head for "N7" and "Naas"

is_that_so

Yoda wrote:

Idle hope? Or founded-upon-reality hope?

Too true. Based a bit too much in common sense. My own approach to signage is to look for the "next" place on the route. Orienteering approach to route mapping . Bound to see that quicker, even if the sign flies past ur window pointing the other way. Failing that buy a car with a GPS gizmo that talks . In fairness the only time I have really found route name signage info important is for motorway switches. I have more of an issue with the absence of signposts. And while there is a temptation to exclusive lambast the Irish authorities, parts of France and Spain are no better for signage.

BrianD

What's the benefit of numbering a country laneway? There are so many in Ireland that a standard OS map would become illegible if you were to put in the road numbers as well.

Yoda

Please take a look at one of the 1:50,000 Discovery Series maps. The only things that are numbered are the blue (M), the green (N), and the orange (R) roads. Not a one of the yellow roads are identified at all! Yet it would seem simple to do so, with a small 8-point tag, a bit smaller than the tag that's put on the R-roads.

BrianD

But what's the benefit to the public? None.

Yoda

What is the benefit to the public to be able to find and identify roads with the use of road signage and accurate maps and atlases? You can't imagine such a benefit?

Victor

That 1:200,000 atlas does show the basic layout of M1 and M7 junctions, but not the M50 ones (unless there is a separate M50 map somewhere).

Victor

see attached

Yoda

No signage is worse than those, Victor.

MT

Hi again

Originally posted by is_that_so
And while there is a temptation to exclusive lambast the Irish authorities, parts of France and Spain are no better for signage.

But why aim for the lowest common denominator? Why shouldn’t Irish roads have sign posting that’s the equal or better than anything else in Europe? After all, much of the money currently being poured into the system by the NRA comes from the tax payer’s pocket. Don’t you feel short changed when the results are less than adequate?

IMO a clear and comprehensive signage system does not require the input of nuclear physicists. With a certain degree of forethought, research and not that much investment good signage can be installed and thoroughly maintained. Most other rich nations have found this ‘challenge’ easily surmountable and have done so decades ago to boot. So why do you struggle with the concept down south? I intend absolutely no offence by this, but do you guys not find it slightly embarrassing? Surely a fully signed road network is one of the most basic public services a government can provide. None of the complexities of organising a health service here.

Germans, the Dutch, even people up here take a reasonable standard of road signage for granted. Don’t people in the Republic deserve the same?

is_that_so

MT wrote:

Hi again

But why aim for the lowest common denominator? Why shouldn’t Irish roads have sign posting that’s the equal or better than anything else in Europe? After all, much of the money currently being poured into the system by the NRA comes from the tax payer’s pocket. Don’t you feel short changed when the results are less than adequate?

IMO a clear and comprehensive signage system does not require the input of nuclear physicists. With a certain degree of forethought, research and not that much investment good signage can be installed and thoroughly maintained. Most other rich nations have found this ‘challenge’ easily surmountable and have done so decades ago to boot. So why do you struggle with the concept down south? I intend absolutely no offence by this, but do you guys not find it slightly embarrassing? Surely a fully signed road network is one of the most basic public services a government can provide. None of the complexities of organising a health service here.

Germans, the Dutch, even people up here take a reasonable standard of road signage for granted. Don’t people in the Republic deserve the same?

The point I was making is that it is NOT exclusively an Irish problem. There can be a tendency to rant as if we're the worst in the world. Otherwise I totally agree, we deserve better.

Yoda

Yes, we DO deserve better. And we don't have to rant. Boards.ie has shown that it can be a vehicle for change: IrelandOffline, for instance, did succeed in convincing the government to force the introduction of flatrate dialup, which led to the introduction of Broadband propducts in at least some areas of Ireland.

Is the talk on this thread all just talk, or shall we try to do something? As MT says, it isn't rocket science. I've been mulling some of this over for some months now. It might be possible to formulate some sort of coherent plan. Anyone want to help?

cyclopath2001

How about this sign? (Andrew Street, Dublin)

It indicates a 'cycle-lane' to cyclists but nothing to traffic coming in the opposite direction. Even if the driver could identify an upside-down bicycle marking, I don't think it's in the 'Rules of the Road' which pre-dates the cycle lane laws.

C:\

Silvera

MT is correct, the road signage in Ireland is dire.

I drove over 3500kms in New Zealand this year and I didn't once have to ask for directions - the signage there is that good !

EVERY ROAD in New Zealand is signposted, and I mean every road !

Since I have returned I really have noticed how bad signage is here.

Also, has anybody here ever seen Irish council workers cleaning signs ??
Most signs are covered in green slime and look terrible as a consequence.

I recall reading an article, a few years ago in Auto Express, about a council in the UK who have a special 'cleansing dept' whose sole purpose is to clean road signs in their area. I'm sure this is the case througout most EU countries.

All county councils here should clean all their road signs - even once a year - most seem to have NEVER been cleaned.


Yoda,
What have you in mind ?

mackerski

Victor wrote:

So far every Motorway is part of the National Primary system (M1, M4, M8, M9, M32, M50)

I know what you must be referring to as the M32, but I'm 99% certain that it too is numbered M50. Check out the signage.

Dermot

BrianD

It's the N32. The M50 ends at the small round about east of Exit 3 (M1/M50 Junction) and the N32 starts there.