Columbia 3 given 17-year sentences

Meh

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4102737.stm
Three Irishmen initially acquitted of training Marxist rebels in Colombia have now been sentenced to 17 years following an appeal.

The prosecution successfully appealed the acquittal of Niall Connolly, Martin McCauley and James Monaghan.

Arrest warrants have been issued for the three men, who have remained on bail in Colombia.

The three, who had been accused of being IRA members, were found guilty of travelling on false passports.

They were acquitted of the more serious offences by a lower court earlier this year, but the Colombian Attorney General has now successfully appealed against that decision.

Catriona Ruane of the Bring them Home campaign called on the Irish Government to intervene and would bring in international groups.


Sinn Fein's Catriona Ruane and Gerry Kelly were shocked at the verdict

"This is a political decision and a blatant miscarriage of justice," said the Sinn Fein assembly member.

A judge had ordered them to remain in the country pending an appeal by the prosecution against their not guilty verdict on training Farc guerillas.

The Colombian court system goes into recess on Friday, and the men's lawyers are expected to see them within the next day.

It is understood there is one final step in the legal process open to the men, an extraordinary appeal to the Supreme Court.

The earliest that any appeal can be lodged is mid-January.

McCauley, 41, is from Lurgan in County Armagh, Monaghan, 58, is from County Donegal and Connolly, 38, is from Dublin.

The three had been detained at Bogota's El Dorado airport in August 2001 as they were about to board a flight out of the country.

Their arrest led to speculation that Irish republicans had formed links with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc).

The main charge against them was that they had been teaching the rebels the techniques of urban terrorism.

The Irishmen strenuously denied this, saying they were in the area to monitor the fledgling peace process as well as being eco-tourists.

Sinn Féin complaining about the criminal justice system being influenced by political considerations, that's quite a change of heart for them. They seem to have no problem with prison sentences being altered for political reasons in Ireland.

A Dub in Glasgo

Shocking stuff

mike65

Meh wrote:

Sinn Féin complaining about the criminal justice system being influenced by political considerations, that's quite a change of heart for them. They seem to have no problem with prison sentences being altered for political reasons in Ireland.

boom boom! Tshhhhhhhhhh! "I thank you"

Mike.

Raskolnikov

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Shocking stuff

Absolutely.

I await the swarms of anti-Sinn Féiners who try to justify these men; who it seems are going to be falsely imprisoned. Probably the same people who were up in arms about the visitors at Guantanamo.

Phil_321

There's been a "Bring them home" campaign ongoing but I think it would be a good idea to set up a "Leave them there" campaign.
What was the reason they gave for being in Columbia on false passports again?? Observing the peace process or something...... what a load of sh*te.

Cork

Niall Binead, also known as Niall Bennett, (aged 35), of Faughart Road, Crumlin and Kenneth Donohoe, (aged 26), of Sundale Avenue, Mountain View, Tallaght, both Dublin, were convicted at the Special Criminal Court last week after their arrest on October 10, 2004.

Mr O’Snodaigh previously described Binead’s conviction as unsafe.

Link

Could SF please supply us with a list of convictions that they consider unsafe?
(Kangaroo courts included)

What changes would they like to see in our justice system?

gandalf

Cork stay on topic please there is another thread about that issue running !!!

ReefBreak

There is part of me that has some sympathy for these men. No wait, it's just indigestion. Why were they travelling false passports? What were they doing in a FARC controlled area? And nobody should forget the sort of atrocities FARC have been responsible for.

Plus anyone that votes Sinn Féin does not have a right to talk about injustices, when we know the type of respect the Shinners had for justice in the past, i.e. the bullet-in-the-head style of justice.

BCB

Deary me im a bit suprised that the usual anti Republicans have not been on gloating about this....this is terrible news and a gross miscarriage of justice..i sincerly hope the Irish Goverment appeal this at the highest level :mad:

spongebob

Had they travelled on other than British passports I would feel more sympathy for them.

M

BuffyBot

gross miscarriage of justice

Perhaps you should shed some light on the matter and persuade folks..

oscarBravo

BCB wrote:

this is terrible news and a gross miscarriage of justice..

Yeah, because their perfectly valid reason for hanging out with rebels on false passports was... damn, I forget. What was it again? Oh yeah, eco-tourism. I was thinking of taking a raft through the rainforests myself next year - anyone know where I'd pick up a dodgy passport?

BCB wrote:

i sincerly hope the Irish Goverment appeal this at the highest level :mad:

Absolutely. This could cripple the Irish false-passport industry.

Raskolnikov

Ian Paisley Jr. has called the event an "early Christmas present" for the people of N. Ireland.

It seems that this holds true to most of the people here too.

A Dub in Glasgo

Irrespective of the innocence or guilt of these men (of training FARC rebels), there are many here who will be rejoicing anyway as it will add that little bit extra to their point scoring.

This is a black day for justice

SkepticOne

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

This is a black day for justice

Why?

Raskolnikov

BuffyBot wrote:

Perhaps you should shed some light on the matter and persuade folks..

Have you been following the story at all? The three men were acquitted in a Columbian court of terrorism charges, however they were found guilty of travelling under false passports. For this crime; they were sentenced to the time that they had already spent in jail and a fine in the thousands of pounds. The Columbian government have now reversed that decision (without any new evidence may I add) and now the men are facing 17 years in prison.

A Dub in Glasgo

SkepticOne wrote:

Why?

Because there was no evidence

Statement from an indepnedent obsever

'This process has been tainted from the outset. There is no substance to the charges, and the lengths to which the U.S, Colombian and British governments have gone to subvert the defendants' rights clearly demonstrates that the purpose of this trial is not to establish the 'material truth' as to the allegations. While the political pressure to convict is intense, the prosecutor's case is characterized by the utter absence of reliable, credible evidence. Indeed, the reliance on fabricated forensic evidence and false testimony is in itself evidence that the training charges are without substance.'

Natalie Kabaskalian
Attorney at Law, New York

They were acquitted but this has now been overturned

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

Yeah, because their perfectly valid reason for hanging out with rebels on false passports was... damn, I forget. What was it again? Oh yeah, eco-tourism. I was thinking of taking a raft through the rainforests myself next year - anyone know where I'd pick up a dodgy passport? Absolutely. This could cripple the Irish false-passport industry.

there is a very valid reason for travelling on a false passport if travelling on your own is extremely difficult because of your politics

and they visited the farc controlled area during a ceasefire and while talks were ongoing with the columbian government

the guy who alledgedly changed sides and gave evidence against the men was completely discredited and the judge who heard the case found them not guilty of the training terrorist charges


of course they are republicans so in some peoples eyes they are guilty of something

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

there is a very valid reason for travelling on a false passport if travelling on your own is extremely difficult because of your politics

You're going to have to elaborate on that. What would have happened had they traveled on their own passports? And do others who share their political beliefs use false passports to travel to (say) Ibiza?

cdebru wrote:

of course they are republicans so in some peoples eyes they are guilty of something

They're certainly guilty of travelling on false passports. You can justify it all you want (and I'm looking forward to hearing it) but it's seriously dodgy behaviour.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

They're certainly guilty of travelling on false passports. .

So they should be convicted of training FARC rebels on the basis of false passports? 17 years???

spongebob

cdebru wrote:

there is a very valid reason for travelling on a false passport if travelling on your own is extremely difficult because of your politics

Hmmmm. Not travelling is a good option too.

of course they are republicans so in some peoples eyes they are guilty of something

Travelling on a false passport.

Travelling on a false BRITISH passport, even.

How about a compromise where the Brits ask to get them extradited to the UK and do them for possesson of stolen property of the Crown, lets say 7 years each and we ALL accept that the Brits have them bang to rights . That gets them out of Columbia but they must accept that they are ODCs for the duration. By travelling on British documents (irrespective of provenance) they have lost the right to trouble the Irish tax payer . The Brits will keep them safe while they do their time. I'm sure the Columbians will accept the deal.

They travelled "at a delicate time for the peace process".
They were arrested "at a delicate time for the peace process".
They were on pretrial "at a delicate time for the peace process".
They were on trial "at a delicate time for the peace process".
They were convicted "at a delicate time for the peace process".
They lost their appeal "at a delicate time for the peace process".

I for one am sick of them and of the "delicate time for the peace process", the flutes ! .

M

neacy69

im afraid that i have to point out once again that there is no evidence whatsoever to prove that these men were guilty of anything other than travelling to a country using false passports thats it.... no evidence except one discredited "eye" witness- please keep to the facts people and not your own version of events. Travelling on false passports does justify 17Years in a columbian prison.

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

So they should be convicted of training FARC rebels on the basis of false passports?

I specifically didn't say that. I responded to cdebru's assertion that "in some peoples eyes they are guilty of something" - implying that they are guilty of nothing. This is clearly not the case.

FTA69

The fact they were travelling on false passports does not automatically mean they were "up to no good" as some people would put it. Republican ex-prisoners frequently take this recourse owing to the fact they would not be let into other countries, it is common procedure and by no means implies anything at all really. A man was held in America last year using a false passport to visit his brother.

BCB

BuffyBot wrote:

Perhaps you should shed some light on the matter and persuade folks..

It seems someone already beat me to it regarding an explanation........

spongebob

FTA69 wrote:

The fact they were travelling on false passports does not automatically mean they were "up to no good" as some people would put it.

Raskolnikov wrote:

however they were found guilty of travelling under false passports.

cdebru wrote:

there is a very valid reason for travelling on a false passport

But false British passports I ask again.

They should extradite ther own asses straight into the British embassy in Bogota, confess the false British passport gig and let the Brits get them out of there. The Brts can hardly stand by if they have signed confessions of that sort can they ?

My other 2c

M

Meh

BCB wrote:

i sincerly hope the Irish Goverment appeal this at the highest level :mad:

What is the Irish government supposed to do about it? They were travelling on British passports.

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

You're going to have to elaborate on that. What would have happened had they traveled on their own passports? And do others who share their political beliefs use false passports to travel to (say) Ibiza? They're certainly guilty of travelling on false passports. You can justify it all you want (and I'm looking forward to hearing it) but it's seriously dodgy behaviour.

for the reasons already mentioned one as republicans some ex prisioners they would attract the attention of british and american security services
also i dont know how they got to columbia but chances are they had to travel through a third or more country access to some countries can be difficult if you have been convicted of "terrorist offences" as can even getting a plane ticket

as for british passports what is the point they would look more suspicous travelling on an irsh one even false irish given the history of false irish passports with that guy in the embassy selling them that time and the IRish government selling them to anyone with a spare million i presume they believed the British passport would not attract as much attention


as for why they were there I dont know about anybody else but as someone with an interest in armed struggles around the world i would be very interested in meeting these people to see first hand what their struggle is about as i would be interested in meeting palestinians for example

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

I specifically didn't say that. I responded to cdebru's assertion that "in some peoples eyes they are guilty of something" - implying that they are guilty of nothing. This is clearly not the case.

obviously they are guilty of travelling on false passports i dont think any one is arguing that
what i meant was that because they are republicans then there is a presumption that they were up to no good even if there is no evidence to suggest that

orangerooster

At the beginning of this I didnt feel sypmathy for these guys but its pretty damn clear that going to Columbia on false passports and spending time in a FARC controlled area is seriously shoddy behaviour-now I feel even less due to the pathetic excuses they offered up for what they were at.

I hardly think that it was during a cease-fire has much bearing on things considering these were IRA men-you dont stop training an army just cause of a cease fire-pretty much glad to see them stay where they are-"bring them home" indeed....

Meh

cdebru wrote:

for the reasons already mentioned one as republicans some ex prisioners they would attract the attention of british and american security services
also i dont know how they got to columbia but chances are they had to travel through a third or more country access to some countries can be difficult if you have been convicted of "terrorist offences" as can even getting a plane ticket

as for british passports what is the point they would look more suspicous travelling on an irsh one even false irish given the history of false irish passports with that guy in the embassy selling them that time and the IRish government selling them to anyone with a spare million i presume they believed the British passport would not attract as much attention

You know what's even more suspicious than travelling on an Irish passport? Travelling on a fake passport, that's what.

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

for the reasons already mentioned one as republicans some ex prisioners they would attract the attention of british and american security services

I attracted the attention of American security services when I flew from Chile to Miami a few weeks ago. I was detained for about half an hour by DHS. Then I was let go, because there was a reasonable explanation (bureaucratic incompetence) for the problem, and I had nothing to hide.

cdebru wrote:

also i dont know how they got to columbia but chances are they had to travel through a third or more country access to some countries can be difficult if you have been convicted of "terrorist offences" as can even getting a plane ticket

There's a reason for that. The reason has a lot to do with why I wouldn't have put "terrorist offences" in quotes.

cdebru wrote:

as for british passports what is the point they would look more suspicous travelling on an irsh one even false irish given the history of false irish passports with that guy in the embassy selling them that time and the IRish government selling them to anyone with a spare million i presume they believed the British passport would not attract as much attention

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. I travel on an Irish passport all the time, and the guy selling them in the embassy hasn't caused my to be treated with any suspicion.

cdebru wrote:

as for why they were there I dont know about anybody else but as someone with an interest in armed struggles around the world i would be very interested in meeting these people to see first hand what their struggle is about as i would be interested in meeting palestinians for example

Sounds reasonable. Would you feel a need to travel on a false passport to avoid attracting attention to yourself?

spongebob

cdebru wrote:

obviously they are guilty of travelling on false passports

False British passports ..... why will you not say it !??

M

Cork

Could somebody clarify a point for me.

What were these people actually doing in Columbia?

According to the RTE news tonight - they were bird watching.

Is this correct?

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

I attracted the attention of American security services when I flew from Chile to Miami a few weeks ago. I was detained for about half an hour by DHS. Then I was let go, because there was a reasonable explanation (bureaucratic incompetence) for the problem, and I had nothing to hide.?

so what

oscarBravo wrote:

There's a reason for that. The reason has a lot to do with why I wouldn't have put "terrorist offences" in quotes. ?

the quotes are because I dont like the term terrorist
ones mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and all that

oscarBravo wrote:

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. I travel on an Irish passport all the time, and the guy selling them in the embassy hasn't caused my to be treated with any suspicion. ?

how do you know that IRish passports are not examined more closely than other nations passports

oscarBravo wrote:

Sounds reasonable. Would you feel a need to travel on a false passport to avoid attracting attention to yourself?

no as i have never been to prison but if i had been then i could see why some one would feel the need to do that even just to get into the country

can i just ask this if they had turned up at columbian immigration with their genuine Irish Passports would the columbians have let them in

cdebru

Muck wrote:

False British passports ..... why will you not say it !??

M

read the post again I actually said british passports twice

spongebob

cdebru wrote:

can i just ask this if they had turned up at columbian immigration with their genuine Irish Passports would the columbians have let them in

Again you miss an opportunity to say False British Passports
or to answer any point I made . Their best bet is that the Brits take an 'interest' in them but you refuse to even address the possiblity

M

cdebru

Cork wrote:

Could somebody clarify a point for me.

What were these people actually doing in Columbia?

According to the RTE news tonight - they were bird watching.

Is this correct?

i believe they say they were studying the columbian peace process
and how it compared to the irish experience


afaik
the bird watching story is what they told the columbians before they realised they had been caught by the bollox

Meh

cdebru wrote:

how do you know that IRish passports are not examined more closely than other nations passports[/b]

How do you know they are? The burden of proof is on you. For myself, I've never had any problems with security travelling on my Irish passport.

can i just ask this if they had turned up at columbian immigration with their genuine Irish Passports would the columbians have let them in

Clearly, all their supporters who went over to monitor their trial were let in. And they would have been travelling on Irish passports.

cdebru

Muck wrote:

Again you miss an opportunity to say False British Passports
or to answer any point I made . Their best bet is that the Brits take an 'interest' in them but you refuse to even address the possiblity

M

iam waiting for you to make a point i find it is easier to answer them when you have made them

again read my post twice i used the words british passport
the word false is sprinkled in that post too

I personally couldn't give a flying **** if they were travelling on false chinese passports i dont see the relevance

spongebob

cdebru wrote:

iam waiting for you to make a point i find it is easier to answer them when you have made them

The Brits have a case to extradite them (as I said twice already) which gets them out of Columbia innit

Thoughts......if any ....and if not why not. ?

M

cdebru

Meh wrote:

How do you know they are? The burden of proof is on you. For myself, I've never had any problems with security travelling on my Irish passport..

fair play to you and how long were you in long kesh

Meh wrote:

Clearly, all their supporters who went over to monitor their trial were let in. And they would have been travelling on Irish passports.

and how many of them were in prison

not to mention there is a big difference when you are travelling to monitor a trial

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

so what

Figure it out, Sherlock. Here's a hint: innocent people don't worry about attracting the attention of security agencies.

cdebru wrote:

the quotes are because I dont like the term terrorist
ones mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and all that

Hey, some people don't like being blown up/shot/beaten to a pulp by "freedom fighters." Deal with the sticks and stones.

cdebru wrote:

how do you know that IRish passports are not examined more closely than other nations passports

Believe me, if the guy checking my passport on my previous visit to the US had had his eyes open at the time, I wouldn't have had the run-in with the DHS this time around.

cdebru wrote:

no as i have never been to prison but if i had been then i could see why some one would feel the need to do that even just to get into the country

can i just ask this if they had turned up at columbian immigration with their genuine Irish Passports would the columbians have let them in

Ay, there's the rub. What you're saying is, the Columbians might have felt they had enough "freedom fighters" of their own to deal with - so our friends decided to ignore those concerns and enter the country under false pretences.

And that's OK with you.

But hey, as a fan of armed struggle (ever been shot, btw?) I don't suppose the wishes of sovereign governments hold too much sway with you.

cdebru

Muck wrote:

The Brits have a case to extradite them (as I said twice already) which gets them out of Columbia innit

Thoughts......if any ....and if not why not. ?

M

not at the moment they dont as what they have now been convicted of is far more serious than anything the british would have on them

the more serious offence is dealt with first

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

But hey, as a fan of armed struggle (ever been shot, btw?) I don't suppose the wishes of sovereign governments hold too much sway with you.

i never said fan i said someone with an interest

i will ignore the rest of you r waffle

spongebob

cdebru wrote:

not at the moment they dont as what they have now been convicted of is far more serious than anything the british would have on them

The Brits are past masters at spurious extradtion cases, leave it to the experts dude. If your concern is for their safety then all avenues should be explored to get them out, otherwise you would compromise their safety and for what ?

Remember Patrick Ryan in Belgium do ya ?

M

cdebru

Muck wrote:

The Brits are past masters at spurious extradtion cases, leave it to the experts dude. If your concern is for their safety then all avenues should be explored to get them out, otherwise you would compromise their safety and for what ?

Remember Patrick Ryan in Belgium do ya ?

M

tbh
i dont think the brits are going to be too concerned about the safety of three Irish republicans cant see why they would want to get them out I dont see what is in it for them

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

i never said fan i said someone with an interest

What's your interest in armed struggle, and what is it about your interest that can't be satisfied without visiting the areas of conflict?

You said you'd like to meet Palestinians - why not Israelis? They're in an armed struggle too. As are the Americans in Iraq - how about them?

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

The fact they were travelling on false passports does not automatically mean they were "up to no good" as some people would put it. Republican ex-prisoners frequently take this recourse owing to the fact they would not be let into other countries, it is common procedure and by no means implies anything at all really. A man was held in America last year using a false passport to visit his brother.

why would you want to go to a country where you are not welcome.

oscarBravo

Eco-tourism.

is_that_so

cdebru wrote:

there is a very valid reason for travelling on a false passport if travelling on your own is extremely difficult because of your politics

This sounds like real Sinn Fein speak, masters as they are of not using one word when a paragraph will do.

Meanwhile back on topic

Forgive my naivety but this is actually illegal, and therefore implies a prison sentence. To feel a need to travel on false documents in the Western world also suggest that you may be involved in some activity that does not comply with legal standards that you wish to conceal. I don't have much sympathy for them, getting caught with false papers and they should certainly have been punished on that basis. That said 17 years is quite a stretch. As an aside I suggest you listen to Olivia O'Leary for a bit more thoughtful input into the "politics" of Irish Republicanism. http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1214/57live/57live9.smil