What is Ireland??

Oggy Doggy

Forward from "They haven't gone away"

monument wrote:

From wikipedia...

The island of Ireland (Éire in Irish, Airlann in Ulster Scots) is the third-largest island in Europe. It lies on the west side of the Irish Sea, close to the island of Great Britain. It is composed of the Republic of Ireland in the south and Northern Ireland, a region of the United Kingdom. The population of the island is about 5.6 million people. The population of the Republic of Ireland recently passed 4 million for the first time since 1871, due to immigration and increased birth rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

From: web definition

European Union - A regional organization created in 1958 providing for the gradual elimination of customs duties and other intraregional trade barriers, a common external tariff against other countries and gradual adoption of other integrating measures, including a Common Agricultural Policy and guarantees of free movement of labor and capital. Formerly called the European Community (EC), the organization became the European Union in January, 1994. Since 1967, common institutions, the EU Commission, the EU Council, the European Parliament and the Court of Justice, have served members of the EU. On January 1, 1999 the EU launched a single European currency called the euro, which most member countries have adopted. With 15 members (Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, UK), the Union plans to expand membership in coming years, including Southern and Eastern European Countries.

It seems there's some confusion over whether Ireland is a country or a republic within another country. As there's no concensus, how can agreement be reached regarding illegal occupation by another country. It seems that the proper beginning point is trying to agree on the most basic of levels.

Johnny_the_fox

From Biki - created Amp
Small island country in western Europe., Ireland is a member of the 25-nation bloc that is the European Union.

Ireland is divided into 32 counties, although six of these counties, located on the north-east of the island, are under the Jurisdiction of the United Kingdom.

I think Amp has best described it.. to be honest

Sand

Ireland is divided into 32 counties, although six of these counties, located on the north-east of the island, are under the Jurisdiction of the United Kingdom.

Only accurate if you are refering to Ireland in the geographic sense. Politically Ireland is divided between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom. The island of Ireland has only ever been a united political entity under British rule. There is no natural order that implies that a geographic area must be politically united - otherwise Spain should annex Portugal as they share the Iberian Penninsula, or wed be cheerleading the English annexation of Wales back in days gone by.

So if youre asking what Ireland is, its an island of the coast of Europe - and thats about it.

monkeyfudge

Look at your passport. The name of the state is Ireland. The Republic of Ireland is just a title used to distinguish it from Northern Ireland.

Sand

Look at your passport. The name of the state is Ireland. The Republic of Ireland is just a title used to distinguish it from Northern Ireland.

Also helps distinguish it from Ireland, as in the island as opposed to the state, which arent one and the same thing.

cyclopath2001

So where's 'Eire'?

When I sign up for stuff from the UK, I give my country as 'Ireland', but often the Brits change my address to 'Eire'.

C:\

mike65

cyclopath2001 wrote:

So where's 'Eire'?

When I sign up for stuff from the UK, I give my country as 'Ireland', but often the Brits change my address to 'Eire'.

ah! "Error" always a tricky one this, it counjures up images of Mr Cholmondley-Warner and Pathe newsreel.

Princeton University (and wtf would they know) defines "eire" as

n : a republic consisting of 26 of 32 counties comprising the island of Ireland; achieved independence from the United Kingdom in 1921 [syn: Ireland, Eire, Irish Free State]

Its my understanding that Eire was a correct name from 1921 to 1949.

Mike.

Meh

mike65 wrote:

Its my understanding that Eire was a correct name from 1921 to 1949.

Éire is correct if you are speaking Irish. It's correct although incongruous if you're speaking English -- you don't talk about going on holidays to Hellas or drinking beer from Deutschland, do you?

FTA69

An area does not to have to be classed as an independent state to be considered a country. By that logic "Russia" dissappeared in 1917 but suddenly came back into being in 1991. Or Ireland failed to exist after 1801. The concept of a state is vastly removed from that of a country ie the USSR was a state that contained many countriess, the UK is a state consisting of England, Wales, Scotland and a part of Ireland.

To answer the original question, Ireland is a country consisting of 32 counties spanning one island.

Lennoxschips

From wikipedia:

The population of the Republic of Ireland recently passed 4 million for the first time since 1871, due to immigration and increased birth rate.

Birth rates have actually decreased. And, while immigration is correct as a reason for increasing population, technically the growth is due to do the end of mass emigration that plagued Ireland throughout the 20th century. In fact, I'm going to log on to wikipedia now to fix this. (me being a member of the diaspora and all)

Lennoxschips

It's correct although incongruous if you're speaking English -- you don't talk about going on holidays to Hellas or drinking beer from Deutschland, do you?

Indeed, although personally I always refer to Naples as Napoli and to The Hague as Den Haag.

Its my understanding that Eire was a correct name from 1921 to 1949.

Well if that's true, then, as somebody pointed out earlier, all our passports are wrong. The front of mine (one of the pre-Maastricht stock that they still gave out at embassies five years after the Maastricht treaty!) says:

An Comhphobal Eorpach
European Community
--
Eire
Ireland
--
Pas
Passport

sceptre

Odd that this thread is nine posts long without anyone considering the reality of sovereignty, let alone the confusion over the difference between a geographic island and a defined state, as well as the name of the state and the description of the state (that's assuming you believe that the state exists and has some legitimacy in law and in fact). The "country" bit is rather irrelevant, unless by "country" you meant what some people call "nation". Or "state". Or maybe "constituent part" but if it means something else in your mind, a definition would be something to work with.

I'll let this thread run a while even though it's going nowhere very slowly. Might be worth looking up the last time we considered this (as well as the whole "why do some people call our country 'Éire' when they're talking in english"? thread we had a good while back as it might be informative). We considered the nature of sovereignty and what it means then too (or at least I did, Sand probably did too IIRC)

If the thread degenerates one of us will close it. Why? Cos this isn't a hotel for Mr Cock-Up.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Lennoxschips

I wouldn't get too narky about UK firms sending post addressed to Eire. It's meant as a sign of respect really, when you think about it. Like sending an English language postcard addressed to Espana. It shows you took the time out to learn the name in the country's native language. I think the reason we (the Irish) get annoyed when the British call us Eire is because we have massive chips on our shoulders, to be honest.

daveirl

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daveirl

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Lennoxschips

The Republic, The Republic of Ireland or Ireland is used, never Éire.

Except on our passports of course. tee hee.

Well then I think we should start using Eire in Ireland more often. Letting it remain as a derogatory term would mean the the Daily Telegraph 'wins'. It's the name for Ireland in the native language of Ireland. Who cares how the right wing tories use it, I certainly don't.

Oggy Doggy

sceptre wrote:

Odd that this thread is nine posts long without anyone considering the reality of sovereignty, let alone the confusion over the difference between a geographic island and a defined state, as well as the name of the state and the description of the state (that's assuming you believe that the state exists and has some legitimacy in law and in fact). The "country" bit is rather irrelevant, unless by "country" you meant what some people call "nation". Or "state". Or maybe "constituent part" but if it means something else in your mind, a definition would be something to work with.

Does this work as a definition?

Country, State, and Nation
From Matt Rosenberg,
Your Guide to Geography.

Definining an Independent Country
While the terms country, state, and nation are often used interchangeably, there is a difference.

A State (note the capital "S") is a self-governing political entity. The term State can be used interchangeably with country.

A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture. A nation-state is a nation which has the same borders as a State.

States and Independent Countries

Let's start with what defines a State or an independent country. An independent State:

* Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK).
* Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.
* Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money.
* Has the power of social engineering, such as education.
* Has a transportation system for moving goods and people.
* Has a government which provides public services and police power.
* Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory.
* Has external recognition. A country has been "voted into the club" by other countries.

There are currently 193 independent countries or States around the world. Territories of countries or individual parts of a country are not countries in their own right.

Examples of entities that are not countries include: Hong Kong, Bermuda, Greenland, Puerto Rico, and most notably the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. (Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and England are not countries.)

A "state" (with a lower-case "s") is usually a division of a federal State (such as the states of the United States of America).

Nations and Nation-States

Nations are culturally homogeneous groups of people, larger than a single tribe or community, which share a common language, institutions, religion, and historical experience.

When a nation of people have a State or country of their own, it is called a nation-state. Places like France, Egypt, Germany, Japan, and New Zealand are excellent examples of nation-states. There are some States which have two nations, such as Canada and Belgium. Even with its multicultural society, the United States is also referred to as a nation-state because of the shared American "culture."

There are nations without States. For example, the Kurds are stateless people.

http://geography.about.com/cs/politicalgeog/a/statenation.htm

sceptre wrote:

Cos this isn't a hotel for Mr Cock-Up.

Seems I must apologise, the rules state that if you're digressing on a thread to open a new one. I became confused on one thread so opened a new one to seek clarification. Apologies if that was the wrong way to deal with confusion.

So far all I seem to have found out is that Ireland, to the Irish, is sometimes a country, sometimes not a country but part of a country that is the EU.

There is cultural difference between the 26 & 6. Members of the 26 seem to have no desire for being 1 country. The (Protestant) majority, in the 6, do not wish to be a country with the 26. The Catholic minority I haven't got a finger on yet.

Apologies if this seems redundant, but I'm new to the Irish question and just seeking some clarification.

sovtek

FTA69 wrote:

state that contained many countriess, the UK is a state consisting of England, Wales, Scotland and a part of Ireland.

Then what is Great Britain or Britain?

bonkey

Oggy Doggy wrote:

Seems I must apologise,

Npt at all...you did the right thing in opening a new thread, but Sceptre is just giving ppl a heads-up that this might not be the most "long-running" of threads before its, ummm, usefulness has ended, particularly given the proclivity of such threads to degenerate into pedantryfest-style events or, in the case of anything even vaguely mentioning the distinctions between 26 and 32 counties, to degenerate into yet another run-of-the-mill Love/Hate Sinn Fein / IRA Punch-and-Judy show.

So far all I seem to have found out is that Ireland, to the Irish, is sometimes a country, sometimes not a country but part of a country that is the EU.

Take teh population of the country. Thats a minimum number of different versions you're likely to get.

There is cultural difference between the 26 & 6.

Sure there is. But there's also cultural differences between (say) Cork and Dublin, Waterford and Donegal. Whether one sees these differences (26 and 6) as being significant is - I would say - almost entirely subjective on one's opinions towards a 32-country united nation, rather than the other way around.

Members of the 26 seem to have no desire for being 1 country.

As long as you don't mean "most members" or "all members", thas a pretty uncontestable statement.

The (Protestant) majority, in the 6, do not wish to be a country with the 26.

If you see it as religious, which it is partly, but not entirely. The Unionist/Republican split has a strong correlation with the Protestant/Catholic split, but there's any number of opinions as to how significant that correlation is.

Apologies if this seems redundant, but I'm new to the Irish question and just seeking some clarification.

Sure, but the question asked at the top of this thread seems more to ask whether or not a member of the European Union is still a country in its own right, rather then anything about the "Irish question".

This is the only "confusion" you highlight, and that seems to stem more from a lack of understanding of the EU than of Ireland, as the same question would apply to any country which was a member of the EU surely.

Indeed, the more I think about it, the more the first post seems to ask "the EU - is it a country or not", because if its not, then we can't be a "country within a country" as you got confused by.

The EU is not a country.

jc

cyclopath2001

Lennoxschips wrote:

I wouldn't get too narky about UK firms sending post addressed to Eire. It's meant as a sign of respect really, when you think about it. .

Wait a sec there, I wrote the name of my country as 'Ireland' & the UK companies changed it to 'Eire', omitting the fada.

Clearly if I prefer to be addressed in a certain way & it's legally acceptable name why shouldn't they respect that rather than decide that they 'know better' & impose a mis-spelt Irish-language version?

Respect? Deliberate ignorance, I think.

sovtek

[OT]Wow I didn't realize implications of the use of "Eire'" at the begining of rented video tapes. You know when they tell you how "Piracy Supports Terrorism" and then give you a number to call if you wanna narc on someone.
Well live and learn I suppose. [OT]

PH01

Ireland is an island which is you look at it sideways looks like a dog.


ps: won't someone please send this thread to the Cuckoo's Nest?

sceptre

Oggy Doggy wrote:

Seems I must apologise

Naw, what bonkey said.

simu

Lennoxschips wrote:

Well if that's true, then, as somebody pointed out earlier, all our passports are wrong. The front of mine (one of the pre-Maastricht stock that they still gave out at embassies five years after the Maastricht treaty!) says:

An Comhphobal Eorpach
European Community
--
Eire
Ireland
--
Pas
Passport

Yes, look closely and you'll see that passport covers are bilingual - the Irish word/term is written on top, the English one below it. So all your passport shows is that Éire is Irish for Ireland which nobody would argue about. This doesn't imply that Éire is the official term in English at all.

mike65

The Irish Government could clear up the "confusion" by ending the practice of printing "eire" on every stamp.

As for the UK/GB thing. Great Britian is England, Wales and Scotland while the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Phew!

Mike.

simu

Now that I think of it, the French use Eire as well at times, I've seen "la verte Eire" used to refer to Ireland in newspapers! Anyone who takes offense at the English or anyone else using it is being silly.

Maybe we shouls stick with having Éire on the stamps though - less chance of Dubya mixing it up with Iran and nuking us.

FTA69

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

You are harping on about an ideological position long abandoned by the Republican Movement when you talk about "legitimate governments" etc, direct that comment to the Continuity IRA.

My analogy with Russia was correct in the sense that Ireland also became part of a greater union, one entitled the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland".

Zaphod

mike65 wrote:

Its my understanding that Eire was a correct name from 1921 to 1949.

From 1922 to 1937 the name of the state was the Irish Free State/Saorstát Éireann. From 1937 to present the official name of the state is Ireland (in English) or Éire (as Gaeilge).

Republic of Ireland is accepted as a 'description' when wishing to avoid confusion.

Although if you look at the UK Royal Mail website, apparently it's 'Irish Republic'.

cyclopath2001

simu wrote:

Now that I think of it, the French use Eire as well at times, I've seen "la verte Eire" used to refer to Ireland in newspapers! Anyone who takes offense at the English or anyone else using it is being silly.

I do not believe this. I've never heard of Ireland referred to as anything other than "l'Irlande" or "la belle Irlande" by the French.

Getting the name of the country wrong after it's been clearly stated in correspondence is like deliberatey mangling somebody's surname. Even if it's not deliberate, it's rude and discourteous.

Deliberate ignorance is a common method of delivering insult. Just as the French refer to "les Anglos-Saxons" when criticising the UK/USA alliance, some British and NI Unionists use "Eire" when insinuating their disrespect for Ireland.

SkepticOne

My experience has been that the word 'Éire' is used by the English out of a slightly misguided sense of political correctness.

marco murphy

Doesnt the constitution state Eire is the official name

Lennoxschips

Surely though Eire (agus fada for the pedants, I don't feel like opening 'character map') is the proper name, with "Ireland" being the English corruption of the Gaelic? Why should we call ourselves "Ireland" when it's a name a foreign nation made up for us?

Two sides to every argument.

Sand

Use of the name Eire, one of the official names of the state, is hardly intended to offend. Its irritating bad english but to read any more into that is a tad foolish.

Unfortunately some people have *immense* chips on their shoulders and harbour deep insecurities.

Deliberate ignorance is a common method of delivering insult. Just as the French refer to "les Anglos-Saxons" when criticising the UK/USA alliance,

Well they're French, ignorance personified + the chip on the shoulder/deep insecurities - the only time theyre polite is when theyre the ones looking for help.

sceptre

Poblachtach wrote:

Doesnt the constitution state Eire is the official name

No, but it's a bit confusing when you read it (partly because the english version is misphrased). That's why the 1996 Constitutional Review Group recommended changnig the english form of the article to "The name of the State is Ireland" and the irish form of the article to "Éire is aimn don Stát". It'll never be done.

bonkey

Sand wrote:

Unfortunately some people have *immense* chips on their shoulders and harbour deep insecurities.
...
Well they're French, ignorance personified

When you said "some people" Sand, you were including yourself there I assume? Or is it acceptable for you to malign an entire nation, but when others do it its because they've got problems.

jc

RuggieBear

Here's a slightly related article from today's Irish Indo....about a man who has strong feelings on this topic

A MAN jailed for refusing to fill in his census form has said he will go to prison again over the issue.

Musician Declan Curneen from Largydonnell, Co Leitrim, declined to fill in the Central Statistics Office census form because it was a "flawed document".

He was sentenced to two weeks in jail by Manorhamilton District Court last March and was released last week after serving the sentence. But he said yesterday he was prepared to go to prison again for his beliefs.

He said he refused to sign the census form because it referred to Ireland as an island and did not reflect the reality of partition.

"I could not, in all conscience, sign this document from a number of standpoints.

"The form states that it is a census of the population of Ireland and there is no ambiguity there. Therefore, it should be a census of the 32 counties, and not just 26," he said.

He respected the census officials and the gardai who were only "doing their jobs".

"I was treated with the utmost courtesy by all concerned, but I have my views. I would like to have had the chance to put my case fully in court but I was found guilty and given the option of paying €200 or going to prison. I chose the latter."

He said was not acting on behalf of any political party or grouping. "This is a purely a personal matter," he said.

Gerry McLaughlin

bonkey

the article above wrote:

I would like to have had the chance to put my case fully in court but I was found guilt

I'm baffled how a defendant can be found guilty without being given a chance to present their case....but I guess thats a question for another thread...

RuggieBear

bonkey wrote:

I'm baffled how a defendant can be found guilty without being given a chance to present their case....but I guess thats a question for another thread...

didn't notice that... :eek:

regi

When I lived in England, I found people often referred to Ireland as Eire but never in a disparaging way. Occasionally I'd say to them that Irish people don't really like the term, and the reaction was nearly always a 'oh, but I thought they called it that themselves'.

I think skepticone's 'misguided sense of political correctness' is quite right.

mike65

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I do not believe this. I've never heard of Ireland referred to as anything other than "l'Irlande" or "la belle Irlande" by the French.

French tv called Rep of Ireland "Eire" on the sceen caption during the France- ROI soccer game in October. I remember cos it struck me as so odd at the time.

Mike.

luckat

Incidentally, the word "Shinner" is defined in Slanguage as "[nickname, abbrev. of 'Sinn Féin]. Applied by loyalists and the British to the republican party of that name (1905-) and their symathisers".

While I'm no fan of Sinn Féin, I wouldn't refer to the party, or to republicans in general, using this term.

simu

I do not believe this. I've never heard of Ireland referred to as anything other than "l'Irlande" or "la belle Irlande" by the French.

(cyclopath)

You accuse me of lying, then?

Here's an example of the word "Eire" used in French text (and a very bad pun at that ).

It's not used as much as Irlande, of course - in most examples I've seen of its use, its purpose has been to allow the author of the text to show off his/her supposedly intimate knowledge of Ireland. Certainly, there's nothing condescending about the way it's used.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

monument

Wow! Look what ‘cut and paste’ can cause.

The only reason I don’t like the use of ‘Eire’ on address etc is that it’s a bloody abuse of the English language*. Although as PC gone crazy, or a misinformed view that we all use it, it is understandable.

* not only used by the English

Sand

When you said "some people" Sand, you were including yourself there I assume? Or is it acceptable for you to malign an entire nation, but when others do it its because they've got problems.

Ive got issues with fire, I make wild generalisations about them all being hot without knowing if they all are. All water being wet and so on. When I meet a French person whose polite/mannerly and *isnt* looking for something from me then Ill allow that there is an exception to the rule. Actually If I meet anyone whose ever met a polite/mannerly French person who *wasnt* looking for something from them, Ill allow there is an exception.

Anyway, Im maligning an entire nation on the basis of dealing with them, other people are merely maligning use of the official name of the state by our former colonial masters.

cyclopath2001

simu wrote:

(cyclopath)
You accuse me of lying, then?

It's not used as much as Irlande, of course - in most examples I've seen of its use,

No, I did not accuse you of lying but I do not believe that French people commonly use 'Eire'. I speak French and I know many French people. They all say 'Irlande'. In your example, its use was contrived to make a pun and in your original example the writer was trying to be poetic by rhyming the 'e' of verte with the 'e' of Eire.

Of course many people are ignorant of the correct form address for a country, some people here probably say 'Burma' for 'Myanmar' , 'Malaya' instead of 'Malaysia' and 'asylum seeker' for anyone from Eastern Europe. I believe that people should make an effort to use the correct terms as a matter of courtesy to the citzens of those countries. I also believe that some people in the UKGBNI deliberately use the wrong form of address by way of insult. Others do so out of ignorance.

What I dislike is when I've typed 'Ireland' in a form and it's transcribed as 'Eire'.

To bring this discuission a bit more on topic, we could ask ousrselves if what we really mean by 'Ireland' or 'Irish' is "a state of 'not being British'"' or if there's something more positive to it than that.

Victor

The constitution defines (a) a Nation (b) a State. The former covers the entire Island the latter a lesser area.

sovtek wrote:

Then what is Great Britain or Britain?

An island.

Victor

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Of course many people are ignorant of the correct form address for a country, some people here probably say 'Burma' for 'Myanmar'

Well there is a certain fuzziness. www.cia.gov

Government Burma Top of Page
Country name:
conventional long form: Union of Burma
conventional short form: Burma
local long form: Pyidaungzu Myanma Naingngandaw (translated by the US Government as Union of Myanma and by the Burmese as Union of Myanmar)
local short form: Myanma Naingngandaw
former: Socialist Republic of the Union of Burma
note: since 1989 the military authorities in Burma have promoted the name Myanmar as a conventional name for their state; this decision was not approved by any sitting legislature in Burma, and the US Government did not adopt the name, which is a derivative of the Burmese short-form name Myanma Naingngandaw

Redleslie2

Sand wrote:

Ive got issues with fire, I make wild generalisations about them all being hot without knowing if they all are. All water being wet and so on. When I meet a French person whose polite/mannerly and *isnt* looking for something from me then Ill allow that there is an exception to the rule. Actually If I meet anyone whose ever met a polite/mannerly French person who *wasnt* looking for something from them, Ill allow there is an exception.

Anyway, Im maligning an entire nation on the basis of dealing with them, other people are merely maligning use of the official name of the state by our former colonial masters.

That's the saddest rationalisation of straightforward nationalist bigotry and xenophobic stereotyping I've seen in a while. All the sadder coming from the same person who wrote this.

There are plenty of assholes out there. Humans are practically designed to pick on those different from them - why should it be any different for immigrants? Add to that the way petty crime in our country has become almost acceptable and expected - something you deal with. Assholes like Anto and co do it because they know theyll get away with it. They know that no one else will get involved, and they know theyre highly unlikely to be identified and arrested let alone jailed.

If you want to crack down on racist acts then crack down on petty crime - make it unacceptable on a cultural and policing level. That people will not actually walk around someone getting mugged but intervene, that they wont pretend not to have heard someone shouting abuse at a foreigner but actually tell the gob****e involved to shut up.

Anyway, 'Ireland is the old sow who eats her own farrow' said Jimmy Joyce at some point after he'd been run out of the place for writing mad dirty books.

And Eire comes from the name of one of three tuatha de danann queens. The other two (Fodhla and Banba) were slappers allegedly. So use of Eire is not really offensive in any way. If anything it's a reminder of what an interesting history the island has had.

cyclopath2001

Victor wrote:

Well there is a certain fuzziness. www.cia.gov

cia wrote:

this decision was not approved by any sitting legislature in Burma, and the US Government did not adopt the name,

bbc.co.uk wrote:

A largely rural, densely forested country, Burma (or Myanmar, as it is also known) is festooned with the symbols of Buddhism.

LonelyPlanet.com wrote:

Since 1988 Myanmar (formerly known as Burma) has been under the military rule of the State Peace and Development Council (SPDC) - formerly known as Slorc - an abominable military junta.

I think this does raise the issue of whose authority you choose rely on when you decide what form of the name of a country to use. Do we impose our own version when we disapprove of the government of the country in question?