DART fare-evasion case dropped as court told of queues for tickets

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/4550395?view=Eircomnet

DART fare-evasion case dropped as court told of queues for tickets
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 1st December, 2004

A DART passenger has beaten a prosecution for fare-evasion after telling a judge of archaic ticket sale conditions at his local rail station.

Mr Bertrand Boisse, Portmarnock, Co Dublin, told Dublin District Court yesterday of his astonishment at receiving a €25 bill and being accused of fare- evasion after he was unable to buy a ticket at Portmarnock DART station because the only ticket outlet was a small wooden hut operated by one man.

He was travelling to work at 7.15 a.m. on May 26th when a large queue had formed at the hut and the train was arriving.

"I had the choice of being an hour late for work by waiting for the next train or getting on board and paying at the other end," said Mr Boisse, who added that the DART serving Malahide and Portmarnock was much more infrequent than those between Howth and Bray.

He decided to get on board without a ticket and went to an Irish Rail guard in Pearse Street to pay the fare and explain what happened. He was told he would receive a bill in the post for the "standard fare".

"I thought this meant I would receive a bill for €1.80 but I was astonished that it was for €25. When I rang up the only person appointed to deal with complaints in Irish Rail, a Phyllis Elder, I was twice told she was on another call and would ring me back.

"She never did and I forgot all about it until I got the summons to come to court."

Mr Boisse said in the last few years, the number of people using Portmarnock station had more than quadrupled due to the amount of housing development around it, but with no commensurate improvement in facilities for passengers.

"The man in the hut is there with his hands almost covered by his sleeves because there is only a small heater to keep him warm." Only now was Irish Rail in the process of upgrading the station, Mr Boisse said.

He also claimed that people were daily having to abandon the queue for tickets at Portmarnock. On previous occasions when he was unable to get a ticket because of the queue, he had been allowed to pay at the other end.

Mr David Cannon, an Irish Rail inspector, said there was a spot-check for fare-evaders in operation that day. He said Mr Boisse could have bought a seven-day ticket in advance if he wanted to avoid queuing.

Mr Boisse said there was no point in doing this as he did not use the train every day and sometimes got a lift to work.

Judge Michael O'Leary dismissed the case against Mr Boisse.

chewy

usually you'd expect them to say tough luck but I guess if the can fought it in court well done...

seems a bit ****ty of the ticket inspector to give him a standard fare and not explain what that meant(why the guy didn't know is another question)
...

LFCFan

Mr Boisse said in the last few years, the number of people using Portmarnock station had more than quadrupled due to the amount of housing development around it, but with no commensurate improvement in facilities for passengers.

"The man in the hut is there with his hands almost covered by his sleeves because there is only a small heater to keep him warm." Only now was Irish Rail in the process of upgrading the station, Mr Boisse said.

This is a station in Ireland, the Top country in the world for the standard of living

Trojan

I'm not au fait with legal matters - does this set a precedent?

I was very tempted to board a Luas ticketless rather than wait in the cold, and annoyed enough at the time to take it to court rather than pay the "standard fare".

ixoy

Are there any plans to equip all stations with automated ticket machines? This would surely help ease the problem. Or would unions object on fear they'd be replaced?

LFCFan

ixoy wrote:

would unions object on fear they'd be replaced?

Nail on the head for way too many situations like this in Ireland. Unions have way too much power and are keeping Ireland in the 20th Century.

RicardoSmith

Theres two automatic machines in Grand Canal Dock, but they are never on. You have to queue at the both. Whats the story with that?

enterprise

It' as simple as this:

He should have arrived in enough time to buy his ticket.

Trojan

enterprise wrote:

It' as simple as this:

He should have arrived in enough time to buy his ticket.

It's obviously NOT as simple as that. I refer you to the judge

Oh, and can you define "enough time"? 6 months?

The world is NOT black and white, despite the best attempts of many boards.ie posters to suggest that it is so.

LFCFan

enterprise wrote:

It' as simple as this:

He should have arrived in enough time to buy his ticket.

That's a bull**** thing to say. There are so many circumstances that could have meant getting to the station with only a few minutes to spare. If Rail in Ireland was any good we wouldn't have to worry about things like getting to the station half an hour early because it takes ages to buy a ticket. For example, my Fiancé gets a bus to the Station and if the bus is late she has to run for the train. If it's too late she misses the train altogether. She doesn't have the option of getting an earlier bus.

Trojan

I often am in the situation the above poster mentions. I have now taken to walking down the side of Heuston and opening a gate onto the platform, and paying for my ticket on the train in a civilised manner. Aside: ticket inspectors at Heuston on Friday evenings are some of the pettiest bureaucrats I've ever had the misfortune to deal with.

If the various transport companies made their ticket valid dates a bit looser it would be possible to purchase tickets in advance without fear of losing their value....

I still use public transport though

Imposter

You should try getting a bus from Busarus! Doesn't matter what time as far as I can see it's always the same. Minimum 20 minutes to get a ticket.

L5

He should have arrived 15 minutes before the train was due to depart. thats what the signs say.
If more people would arrive even 10 minutes before a train leaves, and not all rush up in the last 2 or 3 minutes then these problems wouldnt occur.

Trojan

I leave work in East Point (10 mins from Clontarf Rd. station) at 1645 earliest. In reality often 1655... Take a dart to Connolly and now get Luas down to Heuston to make my 1750 Westport train. Before the Luas opened I used to walk/run from Connolly to old Virgin Megastore site to get the 90, or a taxi from across if bus not there. I never arrived at Heuston more than 10 mins before the train was due to depart.

I don't mind paying the stupid fares, I don't even mind standing as far as Athlone. But I do mind arriving 10 mins before departure and still missing the only train that evening. So a big Friendly Utopia to the ticket inspectors who won't let me on.

Occidental

enterprise wrote:

It' as simple as this:

He should have arrived in enough time to buy his ticket.

Example

2 weeks ago travelling Mullingar-Connolly Tuesday lunchtime
Arrive Mullingar station 5 minutes before train leaves. Ticket office closed, but after banging on the window, manage to buy ticket from Parcel Office. Not another soul to be seen.

1 week ago travelling Mullingar-Connolly Saturday 9:30am. Arrive 15 minutes before train leaves. Queue of at least 40(and growing) for tickets. Two minutes before train arrives some bright spark finally has the idea to open a second desk. Everyone still in the queue walks off and boards the train without tickets. If you waited for your ticket you would have been in plenty of time for the next train at 12:40.

Mullingar has a bright shiny ticket machine which has been sitting in the ticket office for the last six months, but has never worked. A sweet machine arrived at the same time and has worked since day one.

enterprise

L5 wrote:

He should have arrived 15 minutes before the train was due to depart. thats what the signs say.
If more people would arrive even 10 minutes before a train leaves, and not all rush up in the last 2 or 3 minutes then these problems wouldnt occur.

Exactly!

I have stood at the barriers in Heuston doing census work for IE - to see the dim-wits arriving 30secs before the train is due to depart - most without tickets.

IE has a policy of closing the gate in Heuston 2 mins before departure: most Tickers Checkers follow this, some dont. When the gate is closed you get at least 5 people running up to the barrier asking to be let through. Most are turned away (to right).

It makes my blood boil to see trains delayed because people arriving to late and being let on.

Trojan

enterprise wrote:

When the gate is closed you get at least 5 people running up to the barrier asking to be let through. Most are turned away (to right).

It makes my blood boil to see trains delayed because people arriving to late and being let on.

Yes, it's terrible that people turn up 2 minutes before departure when they've been delayed due to other IE services running 15+ minutes late (example from my experience).

They should definitely have to wait 12 hours for the next train to their destination, and perhaps we should shoot them as well, they're probably guilty of something.

Trojan

Oh, and for the record, all the ticket inspectors on the trains have the ability (and the time) to sell tickets on the train.

Just pre-empting any arguments there...

L5

Most of the blame lies with the public it has to be said. I work in a booking office in a IE rail station, and every morning without fail people run in the doors with less than a minute to go. When the ticket checker refuses to let them board they start shouting and cursing. Would you all prefer trains be late , or trains to depart on time. Because even a 1 or 2 minute delay at each station due to people arriving late can result in 15-20 minute delay overall for a train.

Occidental

enterprise wrote:

Exactly!

I have stood at the barriers in Heuston doing census work for IE - to see the dim-wits arriving 30secs before the train is due to depart - most without tickets..

Possibly because they've been stood like fools trying to buy tickets for the previous 10 minutes, before giving up.

enterprise wrote:

IE has a policy of closing the gate in Heuston 2 mins before departure: most Tickers Checkers follow this, some dont. When the gate is closed you get at least 5 people running up to the barrier asking to be let through. Most are turned away (to right).

It makes my blood boil to see trains delayed because people arriving to late and being let on.

Do you think people do this on purpose. Try using CIE's integrated transport network and see how you get on. This is supposed to be a public transport service, not some kind of jumped up toy railway.

L5

Occidental wrote:

Do you think people do this on purpose. .

yes actually. the simple fact is a lot of people leave things until the last minute and say " ah sure ill make it on time", if they're walking or driving or whatever to the station. Then they rush in expecting to be let on the train which is just about to depart

ixoy

L5 wrote:

Most of the blame lies with the public it has to be said. I work in a booking office in a IE rail station, and every morning without fail people run in the doors with less than a minute to go.

How about tackling some of the cases raised above?

Do you really think people should be forced to get buses twenty minutes earlier because stations don't bother to open a second desk despite queues?

Do you really think having a non-functional ticket machine standing there, needing to be used, is justifiable?

Do you, at least, support the notion of fully-integrated ticketing and debit-style topup cards?

Oh and, FWIW, I use an annual ticket but I still understand the frustration of some people here and the long queues, remembering clearly the huge tailbacks at Howth Junction DART station because of the dreadfully designed booth.

Occidental

L5 wrote:

Most of the blame lies with the public it has to be said. I work in a booking office in a IE rail station, and every morning without fail people run in the doors with less than a minute to go. When the ticket checker refuses to let them board they start shouting and cursing. Would you all prefer trains be late , or trains to depart on time. Because even a 1 or 2 minute delay at each station due to people arriving late can result in 15-20 minute delay overall for a train.

This might bother me if Irish Rail didn't regularly park me in Ballybough for 20 minutes while trying to figure out how to get the train into Connolly. I'd rather loose 2 minutes in each station, than spend 20 in Ballybough waiting for the first brick to hit the window.

LFCFan

L5 wrote:

yes actually. the simple fact is a lot of people leave things until the last minute and say " ah sure ill make it on time", if they're walking or driving or whatever to the station. Then they rush in expecting to be let on the train which is just about to depart

And you know for a fact that most people had a choice in what time they arrived at the station? A lot of people will have gotten a bus etc to the station and have no control over what time they get there at. Can all you IE lovers please explain why there are ticket machines in stations not being used?

Trizo

So called third world countries run a better rail service than Ireland, it’s a damn shambles I catch the dart every morning and its always late/broken down [insert stupid excuse where leaves/wires/wrong type of snow/staff shortage/union strike] is/are involved. I should start a log of every incident that happens it would be farcical!

L5

LFCFan wrote:

And you know for a fact that most people had a choice in what time they arrived at the station? A lot of people will have gotten a bus etc to the station and have no control over what time they get there at. Can all you IE lovers please explain why there are ticket machines in stations not being used?

they are waiting to be set up. They are being set up station by station. 2 ones were recently configured and currently working at the station where i work. they are there 1 month now, and guess what...people will hardly use them. They prefer to buy tickets in person, even with long queues. You cant win with some people :rolleyes:

L5

Trizo wrote:

So called third world countries run a better rail service than Ireland, it’s a damn shambles I catch the dart every morning and its always late/broken down [insert stupid excuse where leaves/wires/wrong type of snow/staff shortage/union strike] is/are involved. I should start a log of every incident that happens it would be farcical!

blame the government for not investing in rail over the last 30 years then. The dart upgrade project is currently attempting to solve many of them issues

RicardoSmith

I'd say about 1 train in 20 I catch is on time. But I suppose thats all the passengers fault.

Ticketing and processing is slow its unbelieveable in some stations. Pearse is ok though usually. Connolly is dire, as is Grand Canal Dock.

Occidental

L5 wrote:

they are waiting to be set up. They are being set up station by station. 2 ones were recently configured and currently working at the station where i work. they are there 1 month now, and guess what...people will hardly use them. They prefer to buy tickets in person, even with long queues. You cant win with some people :rolleyes:

Tell you what. Send the one you have to Mullingar and take away our sweet machine.

This might be a bit of a shock as well, but it might take a little while for people to get used to the new machine even after Irish Rail handed out leaflets and had someone available for the first few days to show people how it works.

L5

Occidental wrote:

Tell you what. Send the one you have to Mullingar and take away our sweet machine.

This might be a bit of a shock as well, but it might take a little while for people to get used to the new machine even after Irish Rail handed out leaflets and had someone available for the first few days to show people how it works.

actually for the first week the ticket checkers called people over who were in the queue and asked them did they want to use the machines instead. Ive often seen them showing people how to use them. People just arent interested though. :rolleyes:

Occidental

L5 wrote:

actually for the first week the ticket checkers called people over who were in the queue and asked them did they want to use the machines instead. Ive often seen them showing people how to use them. People just arent interested though. :rolleyes:

I'm interested and I could have shown you at least 50 other people who were interested last Saturday morning. Maybe having a train every 3 hours does that to you. But then again, that doesn't explain all the people who prefer the machines in Connolly to the queue(and attitude) from hell.

Trizo

L5 wrote:

blame the government for not investing in rail over the last 30 years then. The dart upgrade project is currently attempting to solve many of them issues

I hardly consider extending the track in a number of stations the solution to any of those problems. The only benefit will be that the dart can manage a few more years’ growth in capacity,
Even when the government spends the money it gets the transport totally wrong just look at the Luas
1. It should have been underground
2. it should have linked the airport to the city(taxi drivers objected big time typical problem with unions preventing progress)
3. there shouldn’t have been so many junctions where it meets traffic(threes a crash or two every week, if it were underground no prob here)
4. it runs past areas where there are no residential housing
5. it serves nothing on the north side

On my last point I know we have the dart and well you know how I feel about that, but look at swords the transport for swords is desperate and the place is just getting bigger.
It doesn’t matter how much the government throws money at the issue for as long as they keep making bad decisions it won’t change.

L5

Occidental wrote:

I'm interested and I could have shown you at least 50 other people who were interested last Saturday morning. Maybe having a train every 3 hours does that to you. But then again, that doesn't explain all the people who prefer the machines in Connolly to the queue(and attitude) from hell.

its grand for dart tickets and that, but for mainline tickets, the passengers seem reluctant to use them....maybe because it only gives coin as change!

ixoy

L5 wrote:

its grand for dart tickets and that, but for mainline tickets, the passengers seem reluctant to use them....maybe because it only gives coin as change!

Ah good. I'm sure the man in Portmarnock just didn't want to use the machine that caused this thread in the first place. Oh wait - he couldn't because it didn't exist. And how fupping long does it take to set them up once they're in place? It's a friggin' ticket dispenser.

L5

ixoy wrote:

Ah good. I'm sure the man in Portmarnock just didn't want to use the machine that caused this thread in the first place. Oh wait - he couldn't because it didn't exist. And how fupping long does it take to set them up once they're in place? It's a friggin' ticket dispenser.

they have to set things up with the banks for accepting credit card transactions, takes longer than youd think

RicardoSmith

They should have a change dispenser machine if they are going to have coin machines. Otherwise what are you meant to do with the 20 or 50 euro notes you get from the ATM? Alternatively I'm sure there clever ways of doing it. Like a Debit card, that you swipe, or order from your mobile etc. Some bus companies allow you to bring a barcode from the web etc.

therecklessone

L5 wrote:

yes actually. the simple fact is a lot of people leave things until the last minute and say " ah sure ill make it on time", if they're walking or driving or whatever to the station. Then they rush in expecting to be let on the train which is just about to depart

Thats a remarkably skewed view of service provision. Make the customer work so that the service provider has an easier time? No wonder IE is making such a dog's dinner of its services...

My local train station often has nobody in the office after 7pm (Donabate), despite the fact that there are two more trains run into the city after 7 (7.20 and 8.30). Should I get to the station an hour and a half early to ensure I get a ticket? Or pay the gate keeper in Tara Street when I get in (I always have the exact change)?

L5

therecklessone wrote:

Thats a remarkably skewed view of service provision. Make the customer work so that the service provider has an easier time? No wonder IE is making such a dog's dinner of its services...

QUOTE]


Eh....no. Its not to make it an easier time for the ticket seller. Its to ensure that people are onto the platform in time for the train, so that everyone makes the train in possesion of a ticket.

RicardoSmith

In germany, spain etc, if you hit the platform a minute before the dep time, you'll get the train. In Ireland who knows? Could be early, could be late, as for getting your ticket, theres a queue nearly all the time. But I guess we could all turn up 30 mins early.

Or just drive and not wait at all....

therecklessone

L5 wrote:

Eh....no. Its not to make it an easier time for the ticket seller. Its to ensure that people are onto the platform in time for the train, so that everyone makes the train in possesion of a ticket.

Which could also be achieved by IE providing:

1. More staff to deal with the demand.
2. Automatic ticket machines.
3. Flexible pre-paid ticket options (and I don't mean weekly/monthly)

I notice you didn't answer my question regarding Donabate station. Do I need to be in Donabate at 6.59pm for the 8.30pm train?

L5

therecklessone wrote:

Which could also be achieved by IE providing:

1. More staff to deal with the demand.
2. Automatic ticket machines.
3. Flexible pre-paid ticket options (and I don't mean weekly/monthly)

I notice you didn't answer my question regarding Donabate station. Do I need to be in Donabate at 6.59pm for the 8.30pm train?

there should be somebody there to sell you an excess fare ticket (i.e. write you out a ticket) You should complain to the station manager in Donabate.

Occidental

L5 wrote:

its grand for dart tickets and that, but for mainline tickets, the passengers seem reluctant to use them....maybe because it only gives coin as change!

Ah so that's why they haven't plugged in the machine in Mullingar, because they already know we only carry €50 notes and no one west of Maynooth has credit cards. Well, you might as well take it away then and give us a Coke machine so we've something to drink with our sweets.

L5

Occidental wrote:

Ah so that's why they haven't plugged in the machine in Mullingar, because they already know we only carry €50 notes and no one west of Maynooth has credit cards. Well, you might as well take it away then and give us a Coke machine so we've something to drink with our sweets.

Ive no idea why it hasnt been "plugged in " yet, im sure theyll do it soon. The one in the station im in took 3 months from when the machines went in until they were switched on.

edit. i just wasted my 1000th post on this thread :mad:

Chalk

how about us poor spas on the northside
we have no darts at the weekend - which means no ticekt offices
which means anyone who would buy there ticket on a sunday eveinin instead of monday morning is a bit stuck.

how about we all get the non existent bus to connoly to buy our tickets?

L5

Chalk wrote:

how about us poor spas on the northside
we have no darts at the weekend - which means no ticekt offices
which means anyone who would buy there ticket on a sunday eveinin instead of monday morning is a bit stuck.

how about we all get the non existent bus to connoly to buy our tickets?

just arrive a few minutes earlier on monday morning. or buy the ticket on friday evening on your way home?

therecklessone

L5 wrote:

there should be somebody there to sell you an excess fare ticket (i.e. write you out a ticket) You should complain to the station manager in Donabate.

Where? Donabate? So there should be somebody at the station until the last train has gone through? Never happens mate, and you know it as well. In fact, that station is set up to facilitate this early closing, as the only entry to the southbound platform after 7pm is through a gate which is locked during ticket office opening hours.

In the meantime, I arrive in Dublin and pay whoever it is at the gate my €2.10, for which I receive a receipt. Which should have happened to the gentleman involved in the court case, instead of having some jobsworth reporting him for fare evasion.

ixoy

L5 wrote:

just arrive a few minutes earlier on monday morning. or buy the ticket on friday evening on your way home?

Have you listened to what was said about not always being able to arrive early???? Or do you think people should have to get, for example, a feeder bus twenty minutes earlier to arrive in time for the ten minute queue?

L5

therecklessone wrote:

Where? Donabate? So there should be somebody at the station until the last train has gone through? Never happens mate, and you know it as well. In fact, that station is set up to facilitate this early closing, as the only entry to the southbound platform after 7pm is through a gate which is locked during ticket office opening hours.

In the meantime, I arrive in Dublin and pay whoever it is at the gate my €2.10, for which I receive a receipt. Which should have happened to the gentleman involved in the court case, instead of having some jobsworth reporting him for fare evasion.

well i dont know about donabate, where i work there is someone selling tickets until the last train which accepts passengers has departed (9:40 pm)

therecklessone

Chalk wrote:

how about us poor spas on the northside
we have no darts at the weekend - which means no ticekt offices
which means anyone who would buy there ticket on a sunday eveinin instead of monday morning is a bit stuck.

how about we all get the non existent bus to connoly to buy our tickets?

[sarcasm]FFS Chalk, do you not know you're supposed to go out of your way to get your ticket. Climb the highest mountain and all that...

When will you pesky kids ever learn?[/sarcasm]

L5

ixoy wrote:

Have you listened to what was said about not always being able to arrive early???? Or do you think people should have to get, for example, a feeder bus twenty minutes earlier to arrive in time for the ten minute queue?

why do you presume everyone travels by bus to a train station?

Occidental

Originally Posted by ixoy
Have you listened to what was said about not always being able to arrive early???? Or do you think people should have to get, for example, a feeder bus twenty minutes earlier to arrive in time for the ten minute queue?

L5 wrote:

why do you presume everyone travels by bus to a train station?

Hmm, feeder bus. Wonder why they call it that.