Missing Animal Record

mp3ireland2

Hi,

Farmers son here (so I'm not best versed in all the terms but hopefully this makes sense) trying to help dad sort something out. After the last cattle test there were three erros on animal records. Two of these were purchases from a farmer who didn't complete the trasnfer to dad's herd. So that's all ok now.

The third one however is a calf that dad believes died and was disposed of by the local animal collection company. I've asked the company for the records of all the animals he disposed of with them, and it's not there. Dad isn't much of a man for documentation, so he only has some disposal slips and not the one we need.

He got a letter from the department the other day, and unfortunatley he now seems to have lost it (he suspects he may have used it to start a fire) - so I don't know exactly what it says. He got a missed call from portlaois dept of agricultre a couple of days later but he was unable to navigate the phone menus (he's quite elderly). I don't have all the information to hand to phone them myself. My brother who lives closer will be back on Friday so we are trying to come up with a plan or some options.

If anybody was in this situation before and has any advice it would be much appreciate. I'm not sure how reasonable the dept are. Now that it's reduced from 3 missing errors to 1 it might help. Also having a document from the animal collection showing that he has been compliant with all the other animal deaths, should help I'd hope. I don't see what motivation he'd have to bury a dead animal as I think they are suspecting. Dad generally buys calves that have been weaned and sells most of them on coming up to winter. The missing animal was born on March 5th 2025 and moved into dad's herd April 7th 2025. Herd test was October 11th. He said he woudln't sell a calf so he's adament it's an error at the animal disposal. He unfortunately lost a lot of cavles this year and wonders could they have missed one if he brought over three at once.

I've told dad to go through his bank statements (only last 90 days aviable online for me to look at in his account) in the hope that there's a transaction for a day that there's no animal on the list. Or the cost on the day is higher than for the number of animals disposed of per record. A long shot that woudln't prove anything but could help in the abscence of anything else.

Any tips appreciated!

Chris

whelan2

If you ring the department with your dad explain that your dad is elderly. Have phone on speaker and say that your dad gives permission for you to talk for him . I've done this with my dad

893bet

if they took an extra one “in error” and it got missed on the documentation it is unlikely he would have been charged for it either due to being missed.

Assume he doesn’t have the blue card for the animal? If he has the blue card then the calf died out in a field somewhere and he never missed him (possible I guess if you have numbers and your father is getting on in years etc).

If he don’t have the blue card the assume he was taken to the knackery and your into a he said/ she said.

Neither are good really.

mp3ireland2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124037461#Comment_124037461

Thanks I can get my bother to do that when he sees him Friday. I've also added myself and my brother as authorised to speak on his behalf on the dept agfood website, when I logged into his acconut. I might try that tomorrow even without him present.

mp3ireland2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124037474#Comment_124037474

How bad are the consequences?

EDIT: good point that the won't have charged for one if they missed it. I'll clarify if he still has the blue card, I don't think he does as he'd have noticed prior to the test

Fotish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058429349/missing-animal-record

You should definitely be able to go back more than 90 days on the bank account, I can go back 7 years , play around with it and you’ll probably find out how to do it.

The calf moved into your herd at a month old , seems very young , definitely not weaned anyway.

I often ring the Dept and I find them helpful, get as much information as you can and then ring them.

whelan2

I wouldnt be getting the knackery in trouble, just say you dont know where the animal is. Is he sure it actually was ever on the farm, could have been transferred in error. I'm sure the department have dealt with alot of different situations over the years

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124037481#Comment_124037481

They should be ok. Explain the story to them. In the event that you meet an assh**e, don't back down and ask to speak to a superior.

mp3ireland2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124037500#Comment_124037500

Thanks, yeah it's because he is with PTSB and he gets paper statements they only let me go back 90 days. Seems an unnecessary restriction…maybe to discourage people from getting paper statements? Good that they seem reasonable to deal with genearlly. Although dad was saying they rang the Vet who did the test who gave him a good character reference and he thought it was ok but then I believe their superior got involved and sent the letter. Now that 2 of the animals are cleared up though hopefully it looks less carless.

epfff

Could the calf have been stolen?

Was he transferred in by the seller on paper by the seller by mistake and alive and well elsewhere?

mp3ireland2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124037502#Comment_124037502

Very good point to check, was it transferred in error. Haven't thought of that. Good thing to try and investigate.

mp3ireland2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124037520#Comment_124037520

I've confirmed he has no card, so that rules out stolen or escaping and dying in the bog or something. I also notice that he got 23 calves delivered that one day. What if he only got 22. He said the dealer would have noticed though. Like it would seem obvious to count them but when the two of them know each other they could be too casual. If it escaped from the delaer at some point the dealer would have still handed him the extra card. He said if the dealer later found the calf in the yard he'd have checked the transfers to see where it should be. He seems reluctant to ask the dealer is the long and short of it.

When tranfserring cattle in, does the seller initiate? My brother must normally do this bit. So would there be a list of 23 animals that you just have to click "ok" or "confirm". You would be supposed to compare the numbers on list to your card, but in a hurry may not bother? Is that how it works?

The Continental Op

RE: Bank statements. They should be available but you will probably need to pay (€2.50 per sheet) if you want printed copies of statements older than 90 days.

whelan2

If there's no card, it either died and card went to knackery or he never got the animal.

patsy_mccabe

I assume your dad is not online with the Herd register. If not then the seller of the cattle (this may not be the dealer's Herd Number) would initiate the sale. Here is the link to the form he (source herd) would fill up.

"NBAS 31A"

https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of-agriculture-food-and-the-marine/publications/cattle-aim/

Your Dad would have signed one of these forms generated to accept the calves into his herd.

mp3ireland2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124037651#Comment_124037651

oh yeah dad has them all at his hose but I don't live closeby to be able to check them, it's just annoying you can't see the online statments as be easier to search.

mp3ireland2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124037721#Comment_124037721

He is online, but it's managed by myself and my brother. So I'd need to check if my brother accepted the calves in on Dad's behalf, or if Dad physically signed something - I'll double check that with my brother.

Thanks to everybody for all the information

patsy_mccabe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124037958#Comment_124037958

So if you're online, you can check the date when the animal (if tag number known) came into your Dad's herd.

Go to;

'/ agfood.ie / AIM / herd / view movements by date /

whelan2

SSometimes If the knackery is collecting more than 1 animal they only charge for 1 so I wouldnt bother looking for payment details online. Would be rare for knackery not to do things right re movements

mp3ireland2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124038047#Comment_124038047

Yeah it came in on 7th of April along with another 22 calves, so I'm wondering was dad a bit casual and didn't count them. I can envisage him just chatting to the dealer and letting them out of the lorry. He did say he knows the cattle dealer and if the calf was still in his yard he'd have checked where it should be via his transfers. What if it escaped from the dealers yard, dad never counted them. I think it's a long shot but a possibility. I'm encouraging him to contact the dealer but he's sure if the dealer found an extra card or animal he'd have let him know. I'm weary of the large delivery

whelan2

Why Don't you ring the dealer, have the tag number and date to hand?

mp3ireland2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124038134#Comment_124038134

yeah i'll try to get his contact details.

epfff

Some other farmer could have animal and not noticed he not in herd yet while dealer all happy because out of his herd and not realised wrong herd

Or

Died/disappeared with dealer and he seen father as easy target to have paperwork correct on his side.

Seller generates transfer documents but Its the purchasers responsibility to accept and have transfer right.

One local dealer here has large sfp while every old lad that deals with him has no payment due to penalties from paperwork errors dealin with him and they all say he is sound when they had the trouble with department he got it sorted.

K.G.

MMore Than likely the dept will come out to inspect and try and peice the story together and to be fair they are not difficult to deal with.this will come to its own conclusion one or the other but they will require an improvement in the handling of documentation of the herd in the future.