Is there an NCT appeals process?

Dinarius

We have a 2005 Honda. It’s in mint condition.

We’ve had it for 10 years and it never failed its NCT until now. The reason it failed is that the headlights washers are not working. (A completely useless accessory that about 99% of cars don’t have.)

I’ve been on to Honda and the electric pump that operates the washers is a discontinued part.

They gave me the part number and I went on Ebay and bought a secondhand part. It’s on its way.

To have to scrap a perfect car for something very few cars have, would be very expensive. (I would lay odds those washers haven’t worked for years.)

If the part I buy doesn’t work, is there an appeals process for such a ridiculous fail?

Thanks.

D

FluffPiece

can you not simply remove the washers?

If it's not there, and no holes, it's not due to be tested?

Nigzcurran

I think the way they look at it is if the car has something it should work. don't think they'd make an exception for it. Maybe run it through a different test centre and hope you get a more lenient tester

bennyx_o

Does your car have xenon lights? Washers are a requirement for cars with xenon lights so are a lot more common than you think

Orban6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123925279#Comment_123925279

That won't work. The car will be retested on what if failed on.

Dinarius

It’s 2005. It uses bog standard bulbs. Don’t think they’re xenon. Thanks.

D.

kirving

The reason for the washers is almost certainly that the car has Xenon lights. Due to how a xenon bulb works, it's a bit more difficult to control the intensity and spread of light than it is for a halogen or LED.

The upshot is that dirt on the headlight lens can cause more glare to oncoming drivers than other bulb types, so washers were mandated for a long time.


You don't need to go to Honda for the part, that's the first mistake IMO. I'd be astounded if you can't buy it online. If you can't, then a scrap yard is the best bet. Lastly, it's only going to be a 12V washer pump, so a mechanic or auto electrician would be able to get a generic part to fit instead.

If you post the exact model, someone will be able to share the correct (or a compatible) part number.

bazz26

It would be very unusual for a car to be fitted with a headlight washer system if it were not a requirement. Xenon fitted headlights tend to have a white or ice blue light over the standard yellow traditional halogen lights and are legally required to have a headlight washer system as well as auto adjustment.

Xenon bulbs also tend to be significantly different to your standard halogen bulbs and are not interchangeable:

CramCycle

Is it a full retest or just a roll up and tick box it works. I failed on the power coming to the rear tow bar not being steady (plug was flooded). Removed the tow bar and plug, rolled it back in, passed. If the spare part doesn't work, and it probably does, if you could remove the wipers without damaging the car..

Dinarius

Thanks for all the information.

The part number is: 76806-SCA-S01

Fingers crossed the one I’ve ordered works.

D.

Explosive_Cornflake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123925357#Comment_123925357

Not a direct comparison, but my old volvo had headlamp washer as it was 100% halogen bulbs. That's kind of a volvo thing though.

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123925416#Comment_123925416

I had a Volvo with them too. Lots of Saab's also had them or headlight wipers so it was more a Scandinavian thing given their short days and harsh winters.

Dex Dexta

OP - Just a thought. On my 2003 Land Cruiser (with halogen lamps) the washers only work with the headlights switched on.

Buffman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123925330#Comment_123925330

If they're not HID then it should not have failed. Their definition of HID is "Any bulb producing more than 2000 lumens is officially categorised as HID".

Have a look at Section 4.1.6 of the current NCT manual and go back to the NCT centre and query it directly with them if you definitely don't have HIDs. Or you can complain/appeal directly to head office.

The only reason for failure is "Where a headlamp cleaning device is mandatory (HID), the cleaning device is not present or operating correctly"

https://www.ncts.ie/1141/

Squeeonline

On a similar note, I remember my dads car failing nct because the indicator lights weren't yellow enough (stock car, not that old). It's like they have a quota of failures and will always find a way.

artanevilla

On your first point about it not failing an NCT for 10 years, and now it has. Just because it hasn't failed before is no indication that it will fail in the future.

On your point about the appeals process, it's a pretty clear fail, if they're installed, they must be working, it's in the handbook. It would be a waste of time.

Lastly, just because Honda don't make the part new doesn't mean they don't exist, there will be plenty of stock out there, surplus and otherwise. Get them replaced and you're good to go.

Same as any NCT fail, you get it fixed and away you go.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927238#Comment_123927238

But it’s not a clear fail - indeed on the facts presented it’s not a fail at all, so OP has a legitimate grievance.

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927339#Comment_123927339

If his headlights are not HID, which hasn't been clarified. They think they are bog standard, but haven't confirmed.

If indeed they aren't mandatory, there is an appeals process:

Complaints and Appeals

This suggests they should talk to whomever is in charge of the centre, they could have clarified there and then.

Tantalum73

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927189#Comment_123927189

Indicators have to be distinctly orange and that rule is the same for a lot of countries that follow for example European roadworthiness directives and also throughout the world .

Testers get checked time to time with surprise audits and if that auditor thinks the indicator colour is not distinctively orange , the tester fails and is a mark against them , so you can see why the tester may fail it.

There is certainly no quota for failures ..

artanevilla

Some research seems to indicate that some trims of the CRV, Accord and Civic around 2005 came with HID bulbs, and that those models with just halogen didn't come with headlight washers.

reubenreuben

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123925357#Comment_123925357

My old 2001 saab had them with also headlight wipers. Halogen bulbs.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927569#Comment_123927569

Same. Seems like Honda only fitted headlamp washers to their HID equipped cars

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927648#Comment_123927648

The old accord which used H7s had headlamp washers on the higher spec models.

Some of the CRVs the same - I cant remember if the Civic did - I dont think they did unless they had HIDs.

If it was me Id just take the jets out, blank off the holes and put it back through.

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927627#Comment_123927627

Common on Nordic cars as mentioned above.

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927189#Comment_123927189

This is actually a very common problem where the orange coating on the bulb has flaked off.

They definitely don't have a quota, if anything they allow more cars through than they should

Dinarius

I went to my mechanic this morning and asked him to check the bulb type. It’s a H1not HID. I then phoned NCT complaints and argued that it shouldn’t have failed under 4.1.6. They agreed. I then drove to the test centre and put the case to a supervisor. He checked the lights and agreed that the washers weren’t mandatory for this type of light. He issued me a pass cert there and then.

So, thanks to Buffman above for the NCT manual reference. It has saved me some time and money. Though the test centre mechanic has cost me a lot of time and hassle. Also, I had already ordered the part from Germany since we were running close to requiring a full retest. Will try and return it for a refund.

D.

Buffman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123928140#Comment_123928140

Glad you got sorted eventually, sounds like a right pain alright.

In my experience there shouldn't be any issues returning the unused parts, try to refuse delivery if possible or you'll get stung for extra shipping and also check if there's any 'restocking' fee due.

keno-daytrader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123927238#Comment_123927238

Probably should retract your statement that "it's a pretty clear fail" What you have stated is categorically wrong "if they are installed the must be working." Why post such a wrong, negative and unhelpful post?

Fair play to you OP for correcting an obviously wrong tester and getting the car to pass!

Dinarius

I won’t be able to refuse delivery. The parts company offer a fully insured return service for €30. Annoying, but less than the €110 I paid for the part. Will put it down to experience.

And I’ll ask here first in future before ordering any parts! 😊

Thanks again.

D.

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123928429#Comment_123928429

See my 2nd post where I clarified.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123936007#Comment_123936007

The light you're referring to is a daytime running light, which are required to be functioning. I could recommend someone who can repair them, but it costs €450. Probably cheaper to just buy one from a scrapyard.

And what cars don't have registration plate bulbs? Only one of the two bulbs needs to be functioning