Insurance as main driver but not vehicle owner?

mikeoc85

Hi all,

I’m not sure if this is the best place to ask but appreciate any help or advice.

Basically what we're wondering is can we purchase a vehicle that is needed to help around the farm. Father is getting older and needs help, we don't live right beside the farm and there is land between where we do live and the farm so it makes sense to have something like a Hilux. 

Problem is I'm not VAT registered and don't have a herd number. I'm looking at ways to try and afford a pickup as using personal car that has baby seats etc isn't feasible. Tax is astronomical on all pickups (€1,000+ a year) unless you've a herd number or VAT registered. Father has a herd number so would be able to tax it as commercial.

What I'm wondering is if it's possible for my father to purchase the car but that I'm the main policy holder? That way we'd be straight with insurance as I will be the main user.

DonalB1

It’s possible for your father to purchase the vehicle and for you to be the policy holder

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123756052#Comment_123756052

With which insurance company? AFAIK all of them insist that the policy holder is the registered and legal owner of the vehicle.

oinkely

Can you not use the fathers herd number to tax it commercially? A letter from him stating that you work the farm with him and the vehicle is for farm related business may be required also? There's loads of lads on here from time to time getting similar letters from employers for commercial tax purposes.

This is from someone who has paid private tax on a crewcab van for the last 14 years or so - sometimes i regret not pursuing commercial tax more vigorously when i bought it (usually around tax renewal time every august ;-))

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123756052#Comment_123756052

Wrong. Only spouses can do that.

Sono

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123756052#Comment_123756052

this is not true

corkie

i think I will post in this thread with a similar family Broker/Insurance policy issue we are having. I don't want to share too much information on a public forum.

Basic problem. An elderly relative car owner is looking to initiate a official mid-term adjustment to remove her as an insured driver of the car and just have me as the only insured name driver of the car. (already a named driver)!

She doesn't want to initiate a legal process of doing so by writing to them, with the request, so they can respond in kind with statements to reason they can not do so.

One of the reasons they are refusing is to do with "Insurable interest" or has been mentioned.

My first approach to find out information on this was to query www.perplexity.ai and got some good information. Boards didn't even come to mind to seek advice on it. I sent a message to citizens information on instragram tonight. Seemed to be the only platform you could enquire with a private message. As I said I didn't want to share too much info publicly!

Note on official mid-term adjustment: -

• Ask the broker, in writing, to process a mid-term policy alteration—removing the owner as a driver and listing only the named driver. This is a standard service for Irish car insurance and brokers are expected to process such requests for a reasonable admin fee.
• Point out that you want to retain ownership and are not seeking a new policy or transfer of ownership, but simply a change to the drivers covered under the existing policy, which is allowed under Irish law and standard broker processes.

Note on "Insurable interest":-

Consumer Insurance Contracts Act (CICA) 2019: This Act changed the legal landscape:

• "Insurable interest" is no longer a strict requirement for paying out on a claim; now, the insurer can compensate the party with the true economic interest (usually the owner), even if the policyholder is not the owner.
• This means it's not a blanket legal barrier for someone who is not the registered owner to be the only/main driver on the policy—provided all disclosures are accurate and the insurer is aware of, and accepts, the arrangement.

Transfer of ownership is not an option, because I can't afford the possible (CAT) that would result in doing so.

Hoping to see with this post, if boards.ie can be still be a good place to get some good advice?

Regards

John

coylemj

Basic problem. An elderly relative car owner is looking to initiate a official mid-term adjustment to remove her as an insured driver of the car and just have me as the only insured name driver of the car. (already a named driver)!

If she owns the car then I'm assuming that she is the policyholder. In which case, she will have to terminate the policy and you will have to take out a new policy. You can't simply swap your name in to replace that of the policyholder.

corkie

@coylemj Thanks for the reply, see my notes on it, not looking to replace the policy holder. But I have requested quotes from 2 companies. If it is possible to get insurance policy of my own on a car not owned by me.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123812961#Comment_123812961

When you were looking for quotes, did you click on a link with a name like ‘assumptions’ or similar? If you did, one of them would have been that you (the proposed policyholder) are the owner and main driver of the vehicle.

corkie

It was on allianz and had the option to select an another owner of the car.

They couldn't process the quote online, but still sent me an email notification on it, which I sent another email giving them more details. Referencing the quote number, which had all the provided details. Been the weekend I doubt if I will hear anything till monday. The other company was Howden which I just sent an email enquiry.

coylemj

If your elderly relative has stopped driving because she no longer feels she can manage the task, she needs to hand in the cert and disc and terminate the policy. Because if the policyholder is no longer the main driver, the policy is effectively void and you will not be covered to drive her car.

On you getting a policy to drive a car which she still owns, I wouldn’t bother trying for an online quote because you will eventually hit a brick wall and get refused - you need to phone for a quote or talk to a broker.

corkie

@coylemj That is a main worry, I have had myself!

Edit: - But as far as your concerned, the car could be just sitting in our drive at present (unused) until we sort out and resolve the insurance issues/problems.

Her broker has not been helpful and sticking to the fact they wouldn't be able to do official mid-term adjustment! Even with them been obliged to do so by law! Transfer of ownership would equate to 33% CAT fee for me of approx close to 3,000 something I can not afford. If I had access to that kind of funds, I would be driving my own car.

Sorry I can't really comment on the family situation, I was tempt to type an reveal too much info on a public forum.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123814014#Comment_123814014

I've no great expertise on this topic, but I don have some recent experience of CAT regarding another type of item, and I think you may be worrying too much about it.

The minimum threshold for CAT to kick in is €20,000. Depending on the exact relationship with your elderly relative (e.g. if she's your aunt), that goes up to €40,000. I'm guessing the car is worth less than €20,000 unless your elderly relative has a very nice set of wheels altogether.

Either way, cars regularly change hands in families for little or no money. If this is a case where your relative really does intend to stop driving but wants you to still have use of the car, I'd suggest easiest thing is just send off the log book and a change of ownership form, and then you're free to get your own policy via the 'I am the owner and main driver' route.

corkie

The CAT value is based on lifetime, and she has been generous to myself for a few years now with yearly amounts.

I'm not really happy with taking on the responsibility of ownership.

The car would need to be sold to me at market value as well, because cat would kick in again, with the difference in the market value and the amount I pay for it.

But thanks for your input! @Uncle Pierre

It is difficult to discuss in public, and there is information, I am not comfortable sharing.

Even consider deleting earlier posts or asking a mod to so, in case I have revealed too much already.

I mentioned I contact Citizens Information on Instagram yesterday, and have asked for quotes, I will wait for result from them on Monday.

Oh a niece of mine was talking to solicitor and confirmed 'official mid-term adjustment' info I have as a legality.

Brian201888

There is no "official mid-term adjustment" to be done in this scenario. If you don't want the policy to be in her name anymore then the policy needs to be cancelled, it can't be adjusted to be your policy instead.

corkie

Again that is not what an 'official mid-term adjustment' is dealing with, she will still be the policy holder, but just not an insured driver!

@Brian201888 And as I already mentioned a solicitor already confirm this to be a fact!

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123814224#Comment_123814224

She will be the policyholder but won’t be insured to drive the car?
You’re getting terrible advice.

corkie

Just a heads up on latest on my dealings!

Second hand information from my niece, because she was in communication with the broker on my aunts behalf.

But they have issued a letter today, which sounds like they are compiling with some sort of solution to our problem, find out tomorrow. There will be limitations of not long distance driving. Don't know yet if it will be a policy in my aunts name or a new policy in my name.

Stay Tuned.

I will keep this handy thread update with what happens and final solution. In case others find themselves in a similar situation.

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my query, even if it was contradictory and assumptions.

coylemj

Any update on the 'mid-term adjustment' corkie?

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123833408#Comment_123833408

Thanks for your curiosity, that approach was dropped as the policy expires very soon anyway.

I don't want to be revealing to much information on a public forum.

My family situation is complicated and convoluted.

I'm not the one making the policy requests and communication I am getting from the family is 2nd & 3rd Party relayed limited information. I am not a great verbal communicator and the legal documents, even look complicated to me.

We got a new proposal issued with need to fill a declaration posted back last week. So waiting on the mail next week for that.

As I am the guinea pig designated driver 24/7 on beck and call, the ultimate decision to drive in future, is my choice depending on the outcome and if they are too many limitations on the driving I can do.

F**king legal quagmire and stress and worry has triggered my 'Psychosis' again, which I am on medication for years. Main symptom now is "delusions (strongly held false beliefs)", so lack of faith in the limited information my family are telling me. Hence me reaching out with AI queries and posts on this thread to find possible solutions to the problem.

Regards

John

corkie

Just a quick follow up!

As I said I am not a great verbal communicator and some miscommunications have been cleared up.

The policy declaration was accepted, with me listed as the main driver (but not the owner). Just needs to be paid. Won't see the policy itself until then. But we have a window to back track and get a refund if needed.

Have booked an appointment with my doctor, to discuss my health issues for tomorrow.

In the meantime got myself Vitamin B (supplement) on Monday,

https://www.hollandandbarrett.ie/shop/product/h-b-expert-calm-daily-support-30-capsules-60061846

to see me through until I discuss with the doctor.

@coylemj

coylemj

corkie, I wish you well but suggest you not post that level of detail about your medical history and present condition.

You also said (in post #21) 'I don't want to be revealing to much information on a public forum' and then signed off with your first name at the bottom of the post. People here usually don't do that.

corkie

I have nothing to hide. Anyone can go to my profile and see my own github page revealing a lot more.

I protect my privacy online by others means by blocking trackers etc. Posted about not worrying about me been doxed on an alternative platform today, because I don't hide behind a persona. My full name is a very common name and wouldn't bring up much search results. Searching my handle would trigger more accurate results.

It is one thing to reveal something about myself, I just didn't want to be doing so about relatives.

Had a good discussion with Doctor today anyway.

Thanks for the caution warning anyway. @coylemj

corkie

Just a follow-up.

We have a year policy now (effective since 30th Sept).

Where the insurance/broker is aware that policy holder(/Owner) will not be driving as of the 1st Oct and won't be renewing licence start of new year.

Insurance will look to see if licence has been renewed and duly informed no.

As they have been well informed, they can't accuse us of 'fronting'!

So a problem for renewal next September.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123869025#Comment_123869025

Who is the insurance company? It's all very well saying that the insurance/broker have been informed, does this 'arrangement' appear in the documentation that you got?

For example, one of the documents I got from Axa on my last renewal is a 'Statement of Fact' which includes the line:

The main user of the car registration number <my reg no.> is <my name>

corkie

@coylemj AXA

As per our telephone conversation, the policy will stay in _____ name for the year. Axa may contact us in #### to know if the licence has been renewed at which stage we can advise no and the policy will continue until the renewal date.
No need to do anything until next year.

Email from broker in reply that was sent to them stating that policy holder would not be driving from the 1st Oct, so they can't say we didn't inform them of policy holders decision not to drive anymore.

It has confirmed and reassured me that the policy can't be declared 'Null & Void' for non disclosure.

coylemj

If the elderly relative stops driving then she is no longer the main driver. That is a notifiable event. It's not whether you declared her intention to stop driving at the start of the policy, it's the fact that this will happen just one day into the policy and you choose to not notify the insurance.

I don't understand that stuff about 'Axa may contact us …. to know if the licence has been renewed …'. Renewing her licence is not the issue, it's the fact that she is no longer the main driver.

What you've done here is to take out a policy of insurance with you as a named driver in the knowledge that the policyholder will stop driving after one day and that you will be the main (and probably only) driver for 364 days of the policy. Good luck if you have a claim.

corkie

Thanks @coylemj for your concern.

First thing I am not a party to all phone conversations my niece had with the broker. I have seen some back and forth emails on it.

What I know is that the Broker (and Insurance through same) where told before the policy was taken out that the Policy Holder would not be driving since the start of the policy and would not be renewing her license in just a few months into the policy.

When we got the policy back after been paid, the above fact was again clarified with the Broker (emails I have seen).

That they issued a policy with this information provided, reassures me. Because if that Information had not been shared with the Insurer, I doubt they would have issued a policy to an elderly person with limited time left on the license.

If an applicant’s license will expire during the policy period (in this case, just three months left), insurers may refuse to issue a new annual policy or may only offer cover for the duration left on the license, but a full-year policy is unlikely.

Policy is not in my name, and I didn't have to sign any declarations. In good faith I feel comfortable driving on that policy. Based on the things I have seen.

Is there a chance the broker didn't tell the insurance company all details?

'Unknowing', 'innocents' & 'plausible deniability' are not a good defense, but I believe I have seen enough to reassure me all is in order with the policy.

As this has caused enough stress for people involved, I am certainly not going to raise it again with the family and cause more.

coylemj

Corkie, this is a quote you included in your last post, where did it come from?

If an applicant’s license will expire during the policy period (in this case, just three months left), insurers may refuse to issue a new annual policy or may only offer cover for the duration left on the license, but a full-year policy is unlikely.

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123874013#Comment_123874013

There is currently no single, direct, unambiguous quote on public Irish insurer websites spelling out this nuanced rule. The statement comes from an aggregation and interpretation of licence, regulatory, and insurance policy requirements as described across several authoritative Irish sources.There is 

no publicly available Irish insurer website

 where you will find that exact sentence as a direct quote. 

🤔